Honest Question for a Vegetarian

[ti_ama]

I don't want to come off as if I am attacking vegetarians, or anything like that. I just have an honest question and also an opinion.

I do not see what is wrong with eating meat or drinking milk. I do my best to eat as healthy as possible, I try to limit the fast food I eat, I usually eat 4 or 5 meals a day, drink a lot of water, eat tons of fruit and vegetables.. I eat a LOT of food because of the amount of excercise I am getting, but that's beside my point. I feel the healthiest when I drink a lot of water, eat a lot of healthy food, and keep my high level of fitness up.

I just don't understand why animal products are said to be so bad. Maybe I just haven't been in a position to see exactly how bad they are, but even if I wanted to become a vegetarian, right now I have no choice at all. I could limit the animal products I do eat, but I don't really see why.

Again, I'm sorry if I come off as rude or anything like that, I'm just truly curious.

[Jelal67]

I'm a vegetarian more due to personal choice. I find that I feel more spiritual being a vegetarian. Also, since I do not need to consume meat, that by abstaining from its consumption, I avoid all moral conflict that may be associated with consuming meat. (Moral conflicts such as enviromental concerns, humanitarian ones, as well as animal rights concerns.) With a simple act of not consuming something that I do not need to live, I think I do more good in this world than by eating meat.

But again, this is my personal choice, and do not pass judgement on any who choose to eat meat.

And this is only one vegetarian speaking here.

[andonitxo]

I went vegan some years ago. It was because of some health problems that, literally, disappeared. The point is that as years passed by -being a vegan- I started to develop a moral consciousness, and nowadays I understand as an aberration what it's going on inside farms and so. That all boils down to a mere concept: «speciesism» (especismo, in Spanish). A tranquil meditation on it pops up a lot of absurd things that we have developed in our "ordered" societies.

Animals are designed to have a "normal" wild life outdoors. They have been doing it that way since thousands of years. Now, they're confined and tortured, and they do feel, so thing of how their energy bodies will be: scared, with hate, loaded,... All those feelings are kept in their energy bodies, and when you eat a piece of meat, you're eating its energetic counterpart too. The previous idea appears in many books on esoterism, yoga and energy-related texts. Buddha himself said: "eat an animal and you'll behave as an animal", and, surely, he was talking in energy terms.

There are other issues to take in count. For example, the hormone variable. Occident is avid of many goods; the more, the best. And that's so for food, too. If a farmer can grow one cow in healthy conditions, or can grow three cows in not so healthy ones, he'll choose the second option. And to do so they use hormones, the feed cattle with cattle... Mad cows, avian flu, plagues... are but a few examples of the results of our behavior.

And you also have to take in count ecology. Cow growing needs land, needs trees to disappear, needs water so cattle can drink, needs water to clean cattle's excrement... They do need so much WATER!

Fortunately, the last generations of human that are coming to this world are becoming more and more allergic to dairy and wheat (which it's genetically modified). That's forcing parents to look for other alternatives: veg diets, ecologic products...

As you can see there are a lot of variables involved in a diet, many more than it can be realized at a first glance.

And, of course, I'm proud of being vegan.

[cavernstoy]

andonitxo, great post. 

by the way, one pound of beef requires 2,500 gallons of water to produce.

ti_ama, I think I can answer your your question.

Red meat is probably the worst form of meat.  Red meat has been shown to double your risk of colon and breast cancer.  It has also been associated with pancreatic cancer.  It also heightens your risk of heart disease, the second leading cause of death in America.

However, I think all meat is bad for you.  This is because of animal fat and animal protein.  Animal fat is bad for your cardiovascular health, and leads to many forms of cancer.  Although animal protein is a complete protein, it has disadvantages.  Animal protein hardens and closes your arteries, which is not ideal for health.

Lets look at the human anatomy versus a typical omnivore.  An omnivore's alimentary canal is 3 of 4 times its body length, I forgot which one.  Anyways, ours is 12 times our body length.  Why is this a problem?  because it allows over consumption of animal fat.  Also, you have to remember that meat is a rotting piece of flesh.  In this long period of digestion, unwanted bacteria is formed.  Other evidence that we are not omnivorous is the fact that we are the only animal that has ever had to cook there meat.  We are also the only "omnivore" that does not have the enzymes to fight the bacteria found in raw meat.

Now, about how meat is actually produced.  About 98% of farms are the typical "happy" family farms.  About 2% is not widely known.  This percent of farms is factory.  What this means, is that the animals are inside, confined, biologically manipulated, and forced to live in unhygienic conditions.  Now for the worst part of all...These 2% of farms produce 98% of animal produce!  So only about 2% of animal produce is not factory!  If you eat conventional meat, then it is certain that you are eating these animals.  It is also almost certain that you are eating the most extremely unnaturally raised animals as well.  Why?  Because the reason these conditions exist is to lower costs, and price.  So as a general rule, the cheaper the meat is, the more unhealthy, dangerous, and tortured!  If you understand the conditions these animals are raised, you will see why diseases such as mad cow and the bird flue may have developed.  Did you know that chicken feces and dead cows are legally fed to cattle!

http://www.newstarget.com/000664.html

Now, what about dairy and eggs?  Dairy cows, and egg laying hens live in worse conditions than any other animal.  Dairy cows are confined, inside, in veal crates.  No room to move or do anything at all.  They are hooked up to machines that suck the milk from their utter, very aggressively.  They are giving artificial hormones to produce about an extra gallon a day of milk, which is part puss by the way (because of the bruising.)  These hormones, which are fed to almost all factory farmed animals, is present in the animal produce.  Also, antibiotics are fed to almost all factory farmed animals to prevent disease and infection from the severely unhygienic conditions.  About half of antibiotics produced are fed to livestock.  Antibiotics destroy your natural immune system, leaving room for cancer cells to develop, which are a result of the synthetic hormones.

Egg laying hens are confined, inside, in battery cages, without any room to move, and no sunlight to feel, and no fresh are to breath.  At a young age they are debeaked.  The lives of these animals are so stressful, they would peck each other to death if this was not done.  By the way, chicken beaks are made out of hard and soft tissue, with nerve endings.  They are also fed antibiotics, and hormones.  Sometimes to produce more eggs, they are temporarily starved.  Most farmed animals only live six weeks in factory farms.  Egg laying hens and dairy cows live years in factory farms! 

So why did I become a vegan?  Because in your entire lifetime, you will eat 9,000 animals (on average, for an American) that suffered worse that you probably ever will, on a daily basis.  Not to mention all the dairy, and egg produce as well.  What is going on right now, in my personal opinion, is far worse than the holocaust. 

Eating animal produce destroys your health, the environment, and exploits animals all in one package. 

Here is a video about factory farmed animals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4
This is not my source of information, just a good example.

Cavernstoy

[MisterJingo]

Now, what about dairy and eggs?  Dairy cows, and egg laying hens live in worse conditions than any other animal.  Dairy cows are confined, inside, in veal crates.  No room to move or do anything at all.  They are hooked up to machines that suck the milk from their utter, very aggressively.  They are giving artificial hormones to produce about an extra gallon a day of milk, which is part puss by the way (because of the bruising.)  These hormones, which are fed to almost all factory farmed animals, is present in the animal produce.  Also, antibiotics are fed to almost all factory farmed animals to prevent disease and infection from the severely unhygienic conditions.  About half of antibiotics produced are fed to livestock.  Antibiotics destroy your natural immune system, leaving room for cancer cells to develop, which are a result of the synthetic hormones.

Egg laying hens are confined, inside, in battery cages, without any room to move, and no sunlight to feel, and no fresh are to breath.  At a young age they are debeaked.  The lives of these animals are so stressful, they would peck each other to death if this was not done.  By the way, chicken beaks are made out of hard and soft tissue, with nerve endings.  They are also fed antibiotics, and hormones.  Sometimes to produce more eggs, they are temporarily starved.  Most farmed animals only live six weeks in factory farms.  Egg laying hens and dairy cows live years in factory farms!   

Hey Cavernstoy,
I agree with everything you wrote, but take slight issue with the above two paragraphs. Firstly, I'd like to say that I haven't eaten meat or consumed animal products for 10 years now – my reasons for doing so are moral.
While I agree that a lot of dairy farms do treat animals badly and keep their cows pregnant to have a constant supply of milk, this is not the only way of producing milk, and many farms choose more conscientious methods.  For example, there are many farms in the UK which have automated milking machines which the cows go to of their own free will. Bearing milk is painful for them, and so they do like to release the excess milk. On such farms, the cows walk themselves to the machines, which then guides probes to the teats, and the cow happily stands there until the milking is over. No bruising, or harmful effect to the cow.
Likewise with eggs; yes there are battery farms, and I agree battery farming is a terrible practice, but there are also many free range farms. Hens will lay eggs even without fertilisation (like human females release eggs) and free range farms allow the hens to come and go at will, and the excess eggs (which would rot) are taken and sold.
In the EU it is illegal to give antibiotics or hormones to farm animals (I don't think this is the case in the US), so this isn't an issue either.
This shows it is possible to maintain these practices without harm (physical or emotional) to the animals, and if we look at nature, most species live in a symbiotic  relationship with others – and that's exactly what egg and milk farming can be (if done in a humane way).
I'm just posting this to show that such matters are not black and white, such as one could argue that modern mechanised farming methods destroy an unimaginable amount of biodiversity and creatures with each harvest.  So even a vegan and vegetarian diet could be tainted with blood too (metaphorically speaking), unless we farm our own produce by hand using natural tools that is.
I do think eating meat is a senseless waste of life, but I don't preach this, and believe others should make up their own minds.

[MisterJingo]

Fortunately, the last generations of human that are coming to this world are becoming more and more allergic to dairy and wheat (which it's genetically modified). That's forcing parents to look for other alternatives: veg diets, ecologic products...

The reverse is happening in regards to milk. Humans used to be unable to stomach milk, but around 10 thousand years ago, a gene mutation occured allowing adults to drink milk. This gene has spread to the majority of the population between then and now. People who suffer from lactose intolerance are in a dwidnling minority as they simply don't have this gene mutation.

[cavernstoy]

Hi MisterJingo,

I know that there are other ways of producing milk, that are more humane.  But I live in the US, and sadly animals welfare is a lot worse here than Europe.  I am glad to hear that bovine injection (and all animal) are illegal in the EU.  About free range eggs; there is no regulations in the US for this term.  Even worse, a lot of organic eggs and dairy are factory farms.  Yes, this is illegal but the USDA apparently likes to takes bribes.  If you can't even trust organic farms, than I find it hard to believe the term "free range," which means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  Well at least in the United States of America, "the land of the free."  Its really just a marketing term that anyone can use, and it works.

Cavernstoy

[MisterJingo]

Hi MisterJingo,

I know that there are other ways of producing milk, that are more humane.  But I live in the US, and sadly animals welfare is a lot worse here than Europe.  I am glad to hear that bovine injection (and all animal) are illegal in the EU.  About free range eggs; there is no regulations in the US for this term.  Even worse, a lot of organic eggs and dairy are factory farms.  Yes, this is illegal but the USDA apparently likes to takes bribes.  If you can't even trust organic farms, than I find it hard to believe the term "free range," which means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  Well at least in the United States of America, "the land of the free."  Its really just a marketing term that anyone can use, and it works.

Cavernstoy

I agree it's really hard to know what you are buying, as even in the UK even things labelled as 'organic' might not be what people think they are.
A few things I meant to add previously to this topic regarded the difference in physiology between herbivores and carnivores. Carnivores usually have teeth for cutting and ripping, sharp fangs, and their digestive systems are quite short and smooth as energy can be removed from meat very easily. A carnivore will actually starve if fed only on plant matters, as they can't digest such food.
An herbivore has flat grinding teeth (like humans), and will start to break down their food in their mouth (like humans). They also have a very long ridged digestive tract (like humans); such a tract allows herbivores to remove as much nutrients from their food as is possible.

[malganis]

I would like to get free range eggs but now here in EU we have a law that poultry must be closed inside because of "bird flu" danger.
I dont think meat is unhealthy for human but if you eat meat from sick animals it's not healthy. I still eat it because organic market isn't developed here eventhough there are quite a lot of organic farmers so you it's still hard to buy it. They just dont know how to sell the product.

I was vegetarian for a year but i lost so much weight i had to stop. Now after two years i'm at the same weight i was 4 years ago. I was doing something wrong or it's not an appropiate diet for me. I try to eat as unprocessed food as possible, though. And i dont have any moral issues about eating meat anymore. I had them during the time i was vegeterian and some time after but i got over it. Here is the answer i got from the eloheim when i asked him about the food. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_metaphysics/channeling_an_amazing_tool-t21419.150.html

How much does nutrition affects our overall health? Which diet is the best and how much does it depends on each individual? Is eating meat a deterrent in spiritual practice?


What we ask is that when you eat something that you pay attention to how your body reacts to it... that you embrace those things, and often times those things will change, that feel good to you in the moment... that you realize that God gave you food to eat... and that you are not a sinner for eating.  But if meat does not make you feel good... don't eat it.  And if meat makes you feel good... don't have guilt when you do eat it.  Choose the diet that makes you feel good and eat it without guilt and you will be healthy.  Yes this means you could survive on ding-dongs and twinkies, but very, very few people could eat ding-dongs and twinkies without feeling guilty... and it's the guilt that makes you sick, or not function at your highest... not the food.

what is interesting that i heard the same thing from dr. Len who's teaching Ho'oponopono. He also said that guilt is what makes you sick not the food you eat.

I think everyone should eat what's good for their body. If that's vegeterian or meat it doesnt matter. Plants have feelings too.

[MisterJingo]

I would like to get free range eggs but now here in EU we have a law that poultry must be closed inside because of "bird flu" danger.

This is sadly true at the moment, although I do have friends who keep their own hens and they are free to be outside (and their eggs taste much better than those from shops or supermarkets).

I dont think meat is unhealthy for human but if you eat meat from sick animals it's not healthy. I still eat it because organic market isn't developed here eventhough there are quite a lot of organic farmers so you it's still hard to buy it. They just dont know how to sell the product.

If you are interested, I could post links to articles which show meat actually isn't good for people if they eat it more than once or twice a week – especially red meat which causes changes in cells which could cause cancers in certain parts of the body.

I was vegetarian for a year but i lost so much weight i had to stop. Now after two years i'm at the same weight i was 4 years ago. I was doing something wrong or it's not an appropiate diet for me.

When I became vegetarian, I actually gained weight, I used to be a very thin person (6'3" and around 10 stone), so you losing weight suggests you didn't have a balanced diet at the time.

I try to eat as unprocessed food as possible, though. And i dont have any moral issues about eating meat anymore. I had them during the time i was vegeterian and some time after but i got over it. Here is the answer i got from the eloheim when i asked him about the food.

what is interesting that i heard the same thing from dr. Len who's teaching Ho'oponopono. He also said that guilt is what makes you sick not the food you eat.

I think everyone should eat what's good for their body.

Guilt can make anyone sick, but simply removing guilt doesn't mean the situation it used to be attached to is moral now. It simply means the guilt free person doesn't feel guilt.
My moral issues in regards to meat are to do with taking a sentient beings life just to fill a rumbling stomach. As supposedly intellectual (and perhaps enlightened) beings, killing other conscious animals (which each and every one of them are unique in their own right), in full knowledge that they will be terrified as we march them up to the abattoir, seems slightly wrong, especially when we can get better food from less terrible methods.
If people wish to hunt, take their own food, and eat it with respect to the animal's life – then great, that is following a natural cycle. But to eat slabs of flesh, wrapped in plastic and refrigerated in a shop, it seems quite wrong.
Please note, I respect anyone's choice to eat meat (my wife eats meat), but this is a debate :p
I also think there is another argument there in regards to humans treating creatures they perceive lesser to themselves as a commodity, to do with as they will. This is very dangerous ground. What would be terrible, and amazing, is if we ever did contact some form of alien life (or perhaps even the rising of a powerful nation on earth), and they decide we are going to become their food source, because we are lesser to them. We would have absolutely no grounds to argue against this because we have the exact same stance on 'lesser' animals.

If that's vegeterian or meat it doesnt matter. Plants have feelings too.

If they do have feelings, the fact they have no brain or central nervous system dictates they will feel no pain, terror, or any kind of 'emotion' known to humans. Also, plants generally grow to be harvested, it's their natural cycle, and it's what they evolved to do.

What we ask is that when you eat something that you pay attention to how your body reacts to it... that you embrace those things, and often times those things will change, that feel good to you in the moment... that you realize that God gave you food to eat... and that you are not a sinner for eating.  But if meat does not make you feel good... don't eat it.  And if meat makes you feel good... don't have guilt when you do eat it.  Choose the diet that makes you feel good and eat it without guilt and you will be healthy.  Yes this means you could survive on ding-dongs and twinkies, but very, very few people could eat ding-dongs and twinkies without feeling guilty... and it's the guilt that makes you sick, or not function at your highest... not the food.

This is actually quite worrying advice from a supposedly advanced being. It negates the whole area of what meat actually is. You could simply change the wording and it's exact central message would remain intact. Such as:
"But if your neighbours flesh does not make you feel good... don't eat it.  And if neighbours flesh makes you feel good... don't have guilt when you do eat it.  Choose the diet that makes you feel good and eat it without guilt and you will be healthy. "
And such as this:

few people could eat ding-dongs and twinkies without feeling guilty... and it's the guilt that makes you sick, or not function at your highest... not the food.

This is only true if the person has awareness that twikies are bad for oneself, and many do not, so they would not feel guilt at eating them.

The channelled quote simply talks about self importance, EGO, with no regards to anything outside of one's self (i.e. that fact sentient beings are killed to provide a meal which is very expensive resource wise, on the land, and on peoples bodies). If I was a solipsist perhaps it would be sound advice, but i'm not, and I do believe other sentient beings even those deemed 'lesser' (whatever that means) should have the right to live and not be imposed upon by other people's desire or will if it affects them negatively.

[cavernstoy]

If people wish to hunt, take their own food, and eat it with respect to the animal's life – then great, that is following a natural cycle. But to eat slabs of flesh, wrapped in plastic and refrigerated in a shop, it seems quite wrong.

I totally agree with you. 

malganis, 

I lost some weight too, but only to a beneficial degree.  Before, I actually looked a little too skinny; mostly in my face.  This actually filled up once I became vegan.  I don't no why. 

[malganis]

Sorry for late reply but i was on vacations.

If you are interested, I could post links to articles which show meat actually isn't good for people if they eat it more than once or twice a week – especially red meat which causes changes in cells which could cause cancers in certain parts of the body.

I normaly dont eat meat more than twice a week not counting eggs and fish. There was also research that if animals were on no grain diet their meat did not have adverse effect. So that excludes almost all meat in market. Raw meat also did not have adverse effects but decidedi never tried that nor i really intend to. There are many researches advocating for or against meat. I think it depends on your body type if it's good for you or not.

When I became vegetarian, I actually gained weight, I used to be a very thin person (6'3" and around 10 stone), so you losing weight suggests you didn't have a balanced diet at the time.

That's true. I started with fruitarian diet and i ate mostly apples whole day. I had to stop after 8 days or so because of bowel problems so i started to eat cooked food again and my weight loss slowly stabilized at 55 kg at 174 cm height while i had 64 kg at the begining. Once i got sick i lost another 3 kg and then i realized i have to make bigger changes to gain weight back so i have started eating meat again. I had moral issues and i felt guilty for eating meat so I decided to get rid of guilt that was caused by reading all the vegeterian, no meat eating spiritual material because i was afraid i wouldn't be able to gain weight without having a "normal" diet. Gaining weight is still a slow process because i'm avoiding drinking milk and not eating much bread.

My moral issues in regards to meat are to do with taking a sentient beings life just to fill a rumbling stomach. As supposedly intellectual (and perhaps enlightened) beings, killing other conscious animals (which each and every one of them are unique in their own right), in full knowledge that they will be terrified as we march them up to the abattoir, seems slightly wrong, especially when we can get better food from less terrible methods.

Some meat industry practices are horrible..i agree with that. It could be changed for the better. I dont know if you will agree with me but i believe that each animal soul know what it will go through when it incarnates as a cow or chicken and they could choose to incarnate or not.   

If people wish to hunt, take their own food, and eat it with respect to the animal's life – then great, that is following a natural cycle. But to eat slabs of flesh, wrapped in plastic and refrigerated in a shop, it seems quite wrong.

I agree with you but population now is too big for that.

I also think there is another argument there in regards to humans treating creatures they perceive lesser to themselves as a commodity, to do with as they will. This is very dangerous ground. What would be terrible, and amazing, is if we ever did contact some form of alien life (or perhaps even the rising of a powerful nation on earth), and they decide we are going to become their food source, because we are lesser to them. We would have absolutely no grounds to argue against this because we have the exact same stance on 'lesser' animals.

We are a food to some alien creatures according to Castaneda

If they do have feelings, the fact they have no brain or central nervous system dictates they will feel no pain, terror, or any kind of 'emotion' known to humans.

It's impossible to tell exactly what kind of emotions they feel. Here is a short description of Clive Backster's experiment.
http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/philosophy/Personnel/susan/LucyRhiannonRuth/CB%20ground%20breaking.html

The plants were reacting on death of other living beings be it other plants, microbes or animals. They are also affected by the mood of surrounding people.

In Italy in Damanhur they are doing some very interesting experiments with plants. For those who understand Croatian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swFf4psr1_Y&e 

The music you hear is played by plants. One electrode is connected to the leaf and the other to the root. With them the electric potential is measured and so the electric circle is formed. It is connected to the analog digital converter which converts electric impulse to musical. Electric impulse travels to the synthesizer where you can choose the instrument for a plant to play. The plant is running the system and plays harmonius meditative music. If a negative person comes to the room they sometimes stop playing. They need about a week or two to learn playing the music and this is done with letting them listen to melodical music mostly classical. After some time they get it they can produce the sounds with changing electric impulses. At first the sound is static but with time there are more variations.

Also, plants generally grow to be harvested, it's their natural cycle, and it's what they evolved to do.

It could be said the same for animals.

This is actually quite worrying advice from a supposedly advanced being. It negates the whole area of what meat actually is. You could simply change the wording and it's exact central message would remain intact. Such as:
"But if your neighbours flesh does not make you feel good... don't eat it.  And if neighbours flesh makes you feel good... don't have guilt when you do eat it.  Choose the diet that makes you feel good and eat it without guilt and you will be healthy. "

But who would eat feel good eating neighbours flesh? I wouldn't. I have just read about cannibalism on wikipedia and cannibalism was more spread than i thought. Acts of cannibalism were mostly commited during severe famine. I guess your mind think differently then.

The channelled quote simply talks about self importance, EGO, with no regards to anything outside of one's self (i.e. that fact sentient beings are killed to provide a meal which is very expensive resource wise, on the land, and on peoples bodies). If I was a solipsist perhaps it would be sound advice, but i'm not, and I do believe other sentient beings even those deemed 'lesser' (whatever that means) should have the right to live and not be imposed upon by other people's desire or will if it affects them negatively.

It was not just a chanelled quote but also by Dr. Len. There were also spiritual masters who did eat meat.

malganis, 

I lost some weight too, but only to a beneficial degree.  Before, I actually looked a little too skinny; mostly in my face.  This actually filled up once I became vegan.  I don't no why. 

I guess vegan diet suits you then.

[badgerbug89]

I don't know about being a vegetarian. The first time i tried it i lost a bunch of weight, which was good b/c i needed to and then i tried the raw vegan thing and it made me sick so i ate meat for a while and then decided to go vegetarian again which made me gain back weight, which was not good. I don't know why b/c i ate the exact same things both times.

[Scarlet]

I always had trouble working out exactly what my moral stance was on eating meat (except in respect to the treatment of the animals).

Although I didn't feel comfortable eating all meat I didn't see it as wrong in nature.

What I've decided in recent years is that if I would be comfortable killing the animal on my plate myself for food (in the way that it was killed) then it's morally OK for me to eat it. Otherwise it would be immoral for me to do so.

Many, however, would be more comfortable just avoiding all meat, as this approach involves a lot more thought (which can be a little unsettling when you're just trying to order a sandwhich!).

Scarlet

[MisterJingo]

I normaly dont eat meat more than twice a week not counting eggs and fish. There was also research that if animals were on no grain diet their meat did not have adverse effect. So that excludes almost all meat in market. Raw meat also did not have adverse effects but decidedi never tried that nor i really intend to. There are many researches advocating for or against meat. I think it depends on your body type if it's good for you or not.

Could you direct me to this research? I've not been able to find anything which claims or proves this – but I might be looking in the wrong places. AFAIK the diet of the animal has little consequence (other than diseases such as BSE etc) on the reasons why meat is bad for human physiology in large amounts.

Some meat industry practices are horrible..i agree with that. It could be changed for the better. I dont know if you will agree with me but i believe that each animal soul know what it will go through when it incarnates as a cow or chicken and they could choose to incarnate or not.   

I don't believe in souls in the traditional sense (but that's a whole other discussion), I believe in consciousness. So I don't believe a cow, or chicken, or a human who is attacked and killed, or who will die from a disease etc has any knowledge prior to this life.

It's impossible to tell exactly what kind of emotions they feel. Here is a short description of Clive Backster's experiment.
http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/philosophy/Personnel/susan/LucyRhiannonRuth/CB%20ground%20breaking.html

The plants were reacting on death of other living beings be it other plants, microbes or animals. They are also affected by the mood of surrounding people.

Such experiments have been carried out in recent years (MythBusters on the Discovery Channel actually attempted it themselves too and found no response from the plants they used), and no such reactions have been found. So at the least, we can't assume that plants react, or feel, or have any awareness at all (other than what people who wish to believe imbue them with – but then such people will be interacting with their own created plant thought form rather than the plant).
Perhaps future experiments will clear this up either way. I personally get worried when a pseudo-science book from the 70's which has not been validated in any experiment since (quite the opposite) still has such a large effect on peoples beliefs.

If anyone is really interested in this area, check out something like:

The action plant: Movement and Nervous Behaviour in plants. by Paul Simons.

It shows how amazing plants really are (without the need for emotions or sentiency), and the complicated actions evolution has imbued them with. There is also a section which shows how the original claims of plant sentiency/telepathy etc published in 'The Secret life of Plants' cannot be scientifically substantiated.

In Italy in Damanhur they are doing some very interesting experiments with plants. For those who understand Croatian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swFf4psr1_Y&e 

The music you hear is played by plants. One electrode is connected to the leaf and the other to the root. With them the electric potential is measured and so the electric circle is formed. It is connected to the analog digital converter which converts electric impulse to musical. Electric impulse travels to the synthesizer where you can choose the instrument for a plant to play. The plant is running the system and plays harmonius meditative music. If a negative person comes to the room they sometimes stop playing. They need about a week or two to learn playing the music and this is done with letting them listen to melodical music mostly classical. After some time they get it they can produce the sounds with changing electric impulses. At first the sound is static but with time there are more variations.

Could you post or detail any papers or publications these results appeared in? I've googled but only managed to find details of experiments by artists to make sounds from plants.

It could be said the same for animals.

But only if one has faith in certain belief systems which imbue everything with souls on some form of cosmic progression to some perceived 'higher state' (which is all subjective and relative to only the ideas of said beliefs). In a world where people evolved just as animals and plants evolved, such logic as above dictates humans have evolved to be eaten too.
To me personally, knowing that I am inflicting death, pain, fear, terror on a sentient life form 'right now', simply to satisfy a desire which could be satisfied in other ways, would not be quieted by a subjective belief I hold on how I 'think' reality works. Especially when such a belief has only blind faith at it's core.

But who would eat feel good eating neighbours flesh? I wouldn't. I have just read about cannibalism on wikipedia and cannibalism was more spread than i thought. Acts of cannibalism were mostly commited during severe famine. I guess your mind think differently then.

The point of my comment was to show that the person stating this quote literally implies that anything is justified (however terrible and depraved) as long as the person carrying out such actions doesn't feel bad about them. That is exactly what the logic of the statement dictates. This is all about ego satisfaction above all else. To me, such views are not those from a more advanced being.

It was not just a chanelled quote but also by Dr. Len. There were also spiritual masters who did eat meat.

Just because there were 'spiritual masters' (a relative and subjective term) who did certain things, it doesn't imply those things were truly good. There are well documented spiritual masters (as considered by their followers) who abused children, murdered, and committed incest. Just because they were considered spiritual masters by some, I would never consider those actions 'right' or just.

I guess a lot of this comes down to absolving personal responsibility for our own actions to beliefs we hold. I've come to the point where I'm dropping all beliefs which require nothing but faith to support them. To cut off a few arguments:
Some might say OBE requires belief, but I'd say only explanations of OBE or extrapolations of it's meaning (such as survival after death etc) need belief. I can quiet happily project, as the experience itself is real (whatever its source), I simply don't impose beliefs on the meaning of the experience anymore.

[Novice]

Not sure how I missed this thread earlier.   

I've been a vegetarian for about 5 years now. The conversion for me wasn't planned. Over the span of a few months, I noticed that meat started not appealing to me. Then it increased to me picking the meat out of the dish I was eating because the look and thought of eating began to make me nauseus. This progressed to me dropping all meat and meat products from my diet. The last part happened within 30 days. Interestingly, all this started soon after I began doing yoga and meditating. It was never anything I ever thought about or considered. It simply happened. My body doesn't want any meat.

I had also became mildly lactose intolerant after my first child was born -- don't know the connection there. I could eat dairy, just not a lot at one time (like a milk shake was a big NO-NO). But italian foods with moderate cheese or a bowl of cereal was fine. However, I read the China Study last fall and the statistics shown there really opened my eyes. I've now reduced my dairy intake to less than 10% of my diet. Basically the only dairy I consume now is some egg in the form of bread that I eat at restaurants, or a bit of feta or greek cheese crumbled on my salad. Otherwise, I drink soy milk and eat soy and/or rice 'ice cream'. I actually enjoy the taste of most of the stuff I've tried thus far. I've noticed since I stopped drinking regular milk, when I do take a sip now, I find it disgusting. It's too rich and creamy that I can't drink it. The same goes for regular ice cream.

As for weight on my diet, it never fluctuated. I'm a petite person and everyone who finds out I'm a vegetarian/quasi-vegan automatically assumes that's the reason for my weight. But I've weighed the same since I graduated high school -- so diet isn't the key, at least not for me.

Overall, I feel much healthier without meat in my diet. I feel lighter (physically, not spiritually). I find my body simply feels better. I know it was the right choice for me.

[andonitxo]

Folks:

I have to read this all with calm after vacations.

Anyway, the best theory I've ever heard is that which claims that our actual bodies are equal as when we lived in caves. There's a lot of information about "prehistoric diet" in the Internet.

In any case, I always remember Buddha's quote: "that who eats animals ends up behaving as an animal".

[malganis]

Could you direct me to this research? I've not been able to find anything which claims or proves this – but I might be looking in the wrong places. AFAIK the diet of the animal has little consequence (other than diseases such as BSE etc) on the reasons why meat is bad for human physiology in large amounts.

http://tinyurl.com/yoo42v

Perhaps future experiments will clear this up either way. I personally get worried when a pseudo-science book from the 70's which has not been validated in any experiment since (quite the opposite) still has such a large effect on peoples beliefs.

If anyone is really interested in this area, check out something like:

The action plant: Movement and Nervous Behaviour in plants. by Paul Simons.

It shows how amazing plants really are (without the need for emotions or sentiency), and the complicated actions evolution has imbued them with. There is also a section which shows how the original claims of plant sentiency/telepathy etc published in 'The Secret life of Plants' cannot be scientifically substantiated.

Could you post or detail any papers or publications these results appeared in? I've googled but only managed to find details of experiments by artists to make sounds from plants.

I couldn't find them either. It's all i heard from the show but it's in croatian.

The point of my comment was to show that the person stating this quote literally implies that anything is justified (however terrible and depraved) as long as the person carrying out such actions doesn't feel bad about them. That is exactly what the logic of the statement dictates. This is all about ego satisfaction above all else.

That's what we do. We do what makes us feel good or at least think we will feel better when we do it. When you are selfless that makes you feel good, isn't that ego stisfaction also then?

Just because there were 'spiritual masters' (a relative and subjective term) who did certain things, it doesn't imply those things were truly good. There are well documented spiritual masters (as considered by their followers) who abused children, murdered, and committed incest. Just because they were considered spiritual masters by some, I would never consider those actions 'right' or just.

They could be vegetarian and still do the these things.

[greggkroodsma]

I don't want to come off as if I am attacking vegetarians, or anything like that. I just have an honest question and also an opinion.

I do not see what is wrong with eating meat or drinking milk. I do my best to eat as healthy as possible, I try to limit the fast food I eat, I usually eat 4 or 5 meals a day, drink a lot of water, eat tons of fruit and vegetables.. I eat a LOT of food because of the amount of excercise I am getting, but that's beside my point. I feel the healthiest when I drink a lot of water, eat a lot of healthy food, and keep my high level of fitness up.

I just don't understand why animal products are said to be so bad. Maybe I just haven't been in a position to see exactly how bad they are, but even if I wanted to become a vegetarian, right now I have no choice at all. I could limit the animal products I do eat, but I don't really see why.

Again, I'm sorry if I come off as rude or anything like that, I'm just truly curious.

There are animals that are kept natural on farms and stuff like grass fed cows and other animals.  But the concern is over the immunizations in the subsidized areas of livestock raising with the government fed livestock like cows or chickens.  The most burdensome to the thinking is the amount of steroids and hormones that are given to these livestock to make them larger in order to be better sellers on the market..  But, you know, it's like the steroid deal with sports.  Now I dont know if the hormone estrogen is a banned substance in sports but it should be in livestock.  That may be one reason for the obesity problem everywhere now.  Maybe that has been taken care of to this point and they are concentrating on the oil you use for cooking it.  But there comes another problem in the whole thing.  It is called digestion or the difference in the time it takes to digest vegetarian meals and meats.  Why do vegetarian meals cause so much gas?  They digest quickly as they should.  Meat however di g e   s  ts  slowly.  You might have a piece of steak in your belly that has been there for years.  That spells t r o u b l e.  So, really the only problem I see is in the elimination.  A sour belly is hard on the thinking; in other words it is hard to think with a hurtin' stomach.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

i agree with the theory that we are supposed to eat meat, and that hominid development of the brain depended on protein from flesh and as early scavengers with the ability to crack open bones to get rich marrow. (first uses of stone tools)

HOWEVER

by choosing a spiritual path, I rebel against the natural system of horror, pain and misery of the predatory game and decide to break the endless cycle by saying, "I've had enough, it's time to raise the bulls*** flag, and divorce one's self from the instinct for lust of blood.

time to move on, unless you enjoy perpetual punishment, it's your free will to remain here and to partake.

It's not a question or morality or health issues, it's a question of wether or not you want to stay married to this system of existence.

[Astir]

I always had trouble working out exactly what my moral stance was on eating meat (except in respect to the treatment of the animals).

Although I didn't feel comfortable eating all meat I didn't see it as wrong in nature.

What I've decided in recent years is that if I would be comfortable killing the animal on my plate myself for food (in the way that it was killed) then it's morally OK for me to eat it. Otherwise it would be immoral for me to do so.

Many, however, would be more comfortable just avoiding all meat, as this approach involves a lot more thought (which can be a little unsettling when you're just trying to order a sandwhich!).

Scarlet

I like what Scarlet had to say. And I'd also like to share my own thoughts...

In the past few months I've almost completely (and unintentionally I might add) stopped eating meat due to dietary restrictions and lack of cooking skills. I eat it less than once a week. I have definitely lost weight  if it wasn't for the cheese, ice cream and yogurt I'd probably be under 100 pounds right now (it even seems like going vegan, for me, would be suicide). I don't care how much or how little I weigh. Not a concern. But what's interesting is I could cut out that last tiny fraction of meat, easily...Only cutting down on meat hasn't made me feel like a better person. All I have is testimony that it makes you feel like a better person, but I don't think it's something that would make me feel more pure or goodhearted than I already do.
I just don't need to alter much about who I am. I'm sorry if any of this offends anyone. Try not to be offended, I'm just content with myself and what good I already do. It's really a positive thing.

But for the record, vegetarianism is very doable.
Going vegan requires a special sort of discipline...and a metabolism that is not flawed. Many people think it works universally...it does not. Though I would die without my yogurt either way.

[Mez]

I want to go vegan. Purely for health reasons... i've never really cared that people kill animals (i know it sounds horrible) but i have changed since then. Just look at the amount of nutrients in cooked animal based foods as oposed to raw vegan foods... the difference is staggering. But you have to be very physically active on the vegan diet although IMHO thats a good thing!

[Astir]

And test results show I'm anemic. 

[Mez]

Anemia
From Wikipedia

"Diet and anemia
Consumption of food rich in iron is essential to prevention of iron deficiency anemia.

The twenty richest sources of iron in descending order: Canned clams; Fortified dry cereals; Cooked oysters; Organ meats (liver, giblets); *Fortified instant cooked cereals; Soybeans, mature, cooked; Pumpkin and squash seed kernels, roasted; White beans; Blackstrap molasses, 1 Tbsp; Lentils, cooked; Spinach, cooked from fresh; Beef (chuck); Kidney beans; Sardines; Beef(rib); Chickpeas; Duck, meat only; Lamb shoulder; Prune juice.[2]

Certain foods have been found to interfere with iron absorption in the gastrointestinal tract, and these foods should be avoided in persons with established iron deficiency. They include tea, coffee, wheat bran, rhubarb, chocolate, chewing gum, red wine, and dairy products.[8]"

The cause would be Iron defficiency... So just get more iron into your system. Vegan diet needs to be WELL planned and managed. I think people are just so used to the standard american diet they think oh i can just eat whatever I want and i suppose i'll live... but diet is THE most important thing.

[Astir]

Nope, it's not iron. It's not that kind of anemia. The kind I have is caused by a lack of B12 and or folic acid. I'll bet it's the folic acid, because I take enough B12. I just hope it's not the beginnings of pernicious anemia...one of my great grandmothers had that