How To Build A Soul

[beavis]

Souls exist. I am one. It is unlikely a soul, as complex as it is, would exist randomly. Many say souls exist outside of time, or always existed. Regardless of that, and ignoring my incorrect use of time-related words (we have few words for describing anything outside of time), how can a soul be built? Since it is unlikely to exist based on random things, there should be some process (regardless of who or what implements that process) to create a soul. There have been a few threads on creating "thought forms". That is a possible answer, but is really just a renaming of the question, if it is relevant. Give me more info. Many will say only "god" can create souls. That imo is dogma, and I am not afraid to "play god" if I think what I'm doing is right.

[Tom]

Okay. I'll say that it is ture that only God can create souls, but not as a matter of dogma. I'll define a soul as a part of God which thinks it has become a separate being.

[karnautrahl]

I feel it might be possible to ensoul something other than a living being-by living I mean animal, plant, human that is.

The only evidence I have for this has been the sensations I pick up from cars, and other vehicles-especially boats. Not saying a soul is created out of nothing-it's potential was there already.  My brother can see energy in people and things-he sees it highly individually in vehicles in general. I feel this myself. The more loved a car is-the more I can sense.  Ok I'm focussing on the cars example here because that's what I've worked with in the past, also my strongest epiphany states have come from cars also.

If you put enough energy into a construct especially deliberately I have heard it said it can gain it's own consciousness.

[Psan]

how can a soul be built?

That would need a builder. Which in turn would need its own builder...and so on. You end up with a paradox if you follow this path.
Then you can assume the existence of a prime builder, who need not be created and came into being on its own. But that would contradict your own statement that its a bit too much complex, for that to happen.

Well this (very solid) argument must be a familiar one, as its often stated against the existence of god and creation of lifeforms, by those who support Darwinism. So why not extend the evolution principles to spiritual.

I propose that a very primitive and simple form of consciousness exists in the whole of the being, by the very nature of being. So being is consciousness itself. It is so simple that its not even self-conscious and can't experience anything. Slowly [not in our timeframe] it evolved by a natural quality of self-negation and through Darwinian processes and could express itself in forms of itself (matter, we got).

These multidimensional material forms grew more and more complex and some of them could become self-conscious.....souls, we have here.
The souls continued to evolve and could direct their own evolution, which speeded up the whole thing and the souls could become conscious of higher and higher dimensions, which were of course their own content.

Some of them are so evolved that they could create whole universes (which are they themselves expressing themselves) and mimic the evolution in an accelerated manner by incarnating their own parts.....gods, we arrive at.

The parts are obviously us...the living beings in their various states of evolution. Just like the image formed by a complete hologram is crisp and bright, but the image formed by one of its smaller part is dull and blurry, our consciousness remains of an inferior nature.

There are many-many souls stacked up on this ladder at various levels of evolution. Some of us would become gods and start the process over. Evolving more and more. But there remains a possibility that we are not parts of some greater soul, but evolved out of primordial stuff and are on our way of becoming a god.

Someday we'll create our own universes and souls.

Above goes well with the 'Disc' theory I read here and many other 'spiritual facts'. Or may be its my over-imagination at work.

[beavis]

this thread.... the weird things i think of while drunk  

If you put enough energy into a construct especially deliberately I have heard it said it can gain it's own consciousness.

I know what it feels like to do that, but what is really happening? 1 sentence is not enough explanation to be useful.

That would need a builder. Which in turn would need its own builder...and so on. You end up with a paradox if you follow this path.
Then you can assume the existence of a prime builder, who need not be created and came into being on its own.

I hate assuming, so I wont assume that dogma. Nevermind how I got here. I am here. Now I want to build things, and none of your theories of my past will affect that.

But that would contradict your own statement that its a bit too much complex, for that to happen.

Its too complex to "start" to exist AS IT IS NOW randomly. I put no restriction on how it became as it is, only that it was a gradual process from simple to complex. It could be a random process. Example: evolution is mostly random (until tool building, genetic engineering, etc). But it is extremely unlikely for there to be nothing then this complex universe. Gradual. Your prime builder is still dogma.

I propose that a very primitive and simple form of consciousness exists in the whole of the being, by the very nature of being. So being is consciousness itself.

I propose that the smallest simplest thing the universe is made of, can be arbitrarily called anything, since its the only thing that exists. All its properties can be exactly described by math, logic, and/or statistics, therefore it is equal to that.

As I've said before, if something exists for a reason, it is logical. If it has no reason, it is random and described by statistics, which are logical. Therefore everything that exists is logical. "2=3" is logical. It is logicly described as an incorrect string of 3 things.

Everything feels like the things around it are real, even if itsself is not real. Video game characters, for example, react to the game as if it were real.

But I've gone too far from the subject...

It is so simple that its not even self-conscious and can't experience anything. Slowly [not in our timeframe] it evolved by a natural quality of self-negation and through Darwinian processes and could express itself in forms of itself (matter, we got).

What is self-negation?

These multidimensional material forms grew more and more complex and some of them could become self-conscious.....souls, we have here.
The souls continued to evolve and could direct their own evolution, which speeded up the whole thing and the souls could become conscious of higher and higher dimensions, which were of course their own content.

Ok, but what is a dimension made of? And why does it feel like my mind pulls on dimensions to bend them during telekinesis?

Some of them are so evolved that they could create whole universes (which are they themselves expressing themselves) and mimic the evolution in an accelerated manner by incarnating their own parts.....gods, we arrive at.

Thats a far jump from your previous statements. I'll agree there are very powerful beings, but I am unsure if any infinite beings could or do exist. Have you seen any?

our consciousness remains of an inferior nature.

understatement

[karnautrahl]

All I know is at least one car I owned that I loved very much and deliberately tried to put "energy" and intention into ended up with a distinct personality. That car would exhibit physical behaviour when driven by others-lights doing weird things and stuff like that.  

Anyway it certainly spooked out one (alleged) black witch and my mother, also that car reacted solidly and negatively to my Grandma (whom I don't get on with). First time, she wouldn't start and the bonnet wouldn't open outside my Grandma's house. When my Grandma went back inside the hourse, the car started on the next attempt. Next visit, clutch broke.

Most of the stuff that happened is like anecdotal and individual Can't convince anyone but me and other folks involved at the time-and they have slightly different views. However I know what I intended with that car at 17 yrs old.  She was as far as I was concerned the only thing I had that I trusted and relied on-so with my healing and energy sensitivity I built on that. Security blanket don't ya know

I'm attempting this experiment again in a slower and more controlled way to see what happens.

Anyone else had any odd stuff happen as a result of investing energy into something in this way?

[beavis]

I know someone who swears his car has something nonphysical about it. I've never seen it do anything like that, but it handles extremely well on curves. It can go 50% faster around a curve than the speed that would flip a normal car over.

[Psan]

Your prime builder is still dogma.

Well, let it be, I mentioned that just to introduce the 'spiritual Darwinism' stuff. I guess everybody in modern world has got over it.

"2=3" is logical

That's right. Logic has no relation to truth or falsity.

What is self-negation?

Hmmm..you need to dig a bit into Existentialism. I've only read J P Sartre, and found it very interesting. Basically being(which is pure positivity, its all that is) negates itself to create 'nothingness', after which the things start rolling.

what is a dimension made of?

Good question, but a dimension only describes the degrees of freedom something can possess [in mathematics]. Consciousness has infinite degrees of freedom but it must restrict itself to a few to make some sense. Else we'd become a multidimensional ball of chaos. More evolved it becomes, it can organize in more dimensions.

My guess is that during telekinesis, you are exercising your ability of existing in more degrees of freedom.

I am unsure if any infinite beings could or do exist.

Well, I don't say 'infinite'. Gods are very much limited, else why will evolution continue? I've not witnessed anyone 'higher' yet, perhaps they are not interested in me Just like I'm not interested in the activities of ants crawling in my backyard.

understatement

Agree.

[Psan]

Anyone else had any odd stuff happen as a result of investing energy into something in this way?

Yes, I'm dead sure of this phenomenon.
I can feel very easily if someone else had used my PC. It gets a distinct 'alien-ness' imprinted on it. It gave a lot of trouble when it was shared in my family (especially with someone in particular), like lot of bad sectors, heating probs and h/w failures.
Then I locked it up with a bios password, and wont let anybody touch it...and it runs fine.
Also, I've seen some people can make machines go faulty just by touching it.
OTOH, machines start running magically better in presence of a few.
'Green hand effect' I guess.

[beavis]

Well, let it be, I mentioned that just to introduce the 'spiritual Darwinism' stuff. I guess everybody in modern world has got over it.

Yes evolution exists everywhere.

Consciousness has infinite degrees of freedom

Not the only requirement, but that requires there be an infinite number of particles (or whatever the universe is made of). 2 lines each connected at one end but not the other, in a 1000 dimensional space, where nothing else exists, can never exceed 2 dimensions. They never have more dimensions than a triangle. If you add a 3rd line not connected to the first 2, you add 2 dimensions (total 4), because both ends are unrestricted.

The most possible number of dimensions is the number of particles factorial, which is less than number of particles exponent itsself. Huge, but finite if there are a finite number of particles.

Until I see reason to think otherwise, everything nontheoretical is probably finite.

[karnautrahl]

I should have been a mechanic-cars like me , I like them LOL. I don't know quite why I never kinda saw an oppurtunity to work with them in that way.  Probably cos I'd never have found my current partner or Robert Bruce and this site among other things by being a mechanic.

They never break down in an awkward inconvenient place-if they gonna break it's always in the right place .

[beavis]

you think you couldnt do paranormal things without this website? I wouldnt trade it for what I really wanted to do.

From my previous post...

Do you agree if there are a finite number of things, then there must be a finite number of dimensions?

Do you agree there are probably a finite number of things?

[Psan]

Talking of physical plane only, infinite particles means infinite energy and infinite expense, which is absurd.
So your point remains valid IMO. But perhaps we dont understand finite and infinite.
Now, I really dont know if !p is the right number and if the dimensions exists on their 'own', but probbly we'd stop seeing everything in terms of numbers when we evolve out of it and it will all become, say 'metafinite'(?)

[beavis]

I'm not sure of the factorial, but I am sure the number of dimensions is less or equal to

((number of things that exist + 1) * dimensions of that thing)^((number of things that exist + 1) * dimensions of that thing).

That is based on pure logic. If it were in more dimensions, there would be an exponential number of positions where the relative positions are exactly the same, therefore it is the same. I'm talking about everything that exists. There would be nothing to compare it to to justify calling it more dimensions. I didnt mean only physical things. Whatever is the smallest simplest thing, paranormal or not, my equation applies.

But perhaps we dont understand finite and infinite.

You insult me. Infinite is a simple idea. I dont have to understand every detail of an EXAMPLE of infinity to understand infinity itsself.

[Psan]

Ya only an idea...thats all.
I never found anything which is purely finite or infinite.
(I was afraid of writing that but anyway I did, lets see)

Ok tell me which is bigger - a set of integers or a set of real numbers?

[beavis]

You have found at least one thing. Give an example of something that is not finite or infinite.

The set of real numbers is bigger, because for every integer X, real numbers X+.1 and X+.2 exist. You'll have to try harder than that to take down my infinite skillz.

[Psan]

Its going off topic ...anyway.
An electron.

Well you are right but both==infinite, so how can two things be infinite and still unequal?
Infinite is not 'real'.

[beavis]

Infinity shares some properties with numbers, but not all. In some ways, its not a "real" number, but is a real something.

"An electron". "An" means one. One is finite. One peak of a wave. One particle. One whatever-it-is.

[Psan]

You know, we are being tricked by the language.
The electron is just a concept, we observed some phenomenon and called it an electron. So when I say an electron, it means 'an xyz concept', and the concept is obviously 'one'. You've just counted the concept, not the actual thing.
Ok, you can count the peaks, but are the peaks same as an electron? Peaks are another concept, so you counted an attribute of the electron, not the electron itself.
Pass the electron through a double slit. How many are there now? No, you cant count, it has become a 'something else'.

Whole fallacy of counting and measuring is that, that you can count or measure anything only if you can isolate it from the other things somehow. But now we know from QM that there is no such thing as 'isolation'. Even consciousness is a part of the system being measured, that itself makes everything indeterminate.

[Psan]

Back to infinity..

its not a "real" number, but is a real something.

A real something...hmmm. I told you we dont understand it.
But you are right, there is an infinity under every rock that you trun. Its there...
Btw, Cantor classified the garden varieties of infinities that occur everywhere. One more example ...

2^(3^(4^(5^.....

[ASunnieSpirit]

Beavis, you are always so thoughtful and scientific with your posts

I feel like i cant contrinbute too much but i enjoy this subject anyways

I recently gave a report at my college about a doll that became self-aware because its owner would talk to it for hours on end for years straight (almost his whole life actually) Therefore the doll took on his personalities and his negativity....there is also a theory involving use of a soul stone (crystal or some sort of enchanted object) that has the power to imbune any inanimate object with life (i guess this is some kind of juju or vodoo practice)
http://www.horrorchannel.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=8&page=1

As far as building souls, i believe you could do it, i suppose you would have to truley love something to make it self aware.....

Anyways i cant help but post a quote a friend told me just the other day, (he is a deist)  "God is the architect and we are the masons"
something to think about since you mentioned "building souls"

[beavis]

Psan

I never found anything which is purely finite or infinite.

There is only 1 UNIverse. I'm sure you've seen it. By definition, if there were more "universes", all of them together are the one UNIverse.

But for things smaller than the universe... Its possible one property of something is infinite while an other is finite, but that begs the same question of that property. Eventually there must be some part that is purely finite or infinite. There is no continuous range between finite and infinite.

Finite and infinite are descriptions of numbers, so if something about them is proven only for numbers, it is proven for everything described by infinite and finite, even if its not a number.

In the range of all numbers, no finite number can ever equal an infinite number.
-infinity < (all negative finites) < -1/infinity < 0 <  1/infinity < (all positive finites) < infinity.

No combination of finite and infinite numbers can equal anything except those 4 things above, except in a limit equation.

You might bring up some of the weirder equations like
(1 + 1/infinity)^infinity = 2.71... (E)
but that is really a Limit equation (1 + 1/X)^X where X goes toward infinity. Infinity cant be used directly because infinity does not equal infinity. If it did, (1 + 1/X)^(2*X) would be the same equation.

You can use infinity to calculate things, but everything in the equation must be either finite or infinite, and the answer must be either finite or infinite.

The weirdest known equations are fractals (example below). Their shape repeats infinitely as you look closer. They have infinite length edges surrounding finite area, but thats nothing new... The area under y=1/x^2 (x ranges 1 to infinity) also does that.

This fractal probably has an equation shorter than half of this sentence.

Ok, you can count the peaks, but are the peaks same as an electron?

No, but I redirect my statement to the peaks. There are a finite number of peaks.

Pass the electron through a double slit. How many are there now?

There are 2 halfs of an electron.


ASunnieSpirit, before I clicked I thought you were talking about a mechanical doll, lol. Theres not enough science of paranormal things. People with no experience do experiements. People with experience usually dont. I'd like to cause some logical thought on the subject.















Back to the thread subject....

One of my psi wheels that I've used for many months is very easy to do telekinesis to, even when I cant get any other psi wheel to move. Could the power I've put into it be called a soul? It often does appear to have its own "free will". It can sit motionless for a long time, then I try to move it, and it will spin that direction for minutes, despite my efforts to reverse its direction. Or sometimes it reverses on its own when I'm not watching it. Damn, now I feel bad about trying to control it.

[Psan]

Its possible one property of something is infinite while an other is finite

In fact that seems to be the case.
Every time we measure something we must stop somewhere, assume the finiteness, approximate the results, use them and move on.
A rough example : say I measure the size of my bed by a tape. I get say 2.2 m. Now I increase the precision, use a better tape, I get 2.19. I go on measuring it precisely, I end up with a size = 2.17982573...... to infinity. Somehow I cant say where exactly my bed ends. If I push it more, uncertainty principle would make the bed itself meaningless. The bed remains finite...i.e. 1.

I feel at some level the bed becomes a part of me. Its a part of my consciousness, I can't isolate it so I can't measure it. I must negate the bed, the bed is not-me, in order to even perceive it.
If you drill deep into the consciousness of a new born child, you'd find that he faces a lot of confusion regarding whats 'he' and whats 'other'. The growth is mostly focused on his ability to differentiate himself from the surroundings. More isolation = more awareness.

So, in effect you create a soul, if you isolate a part of being from itself and make it look at itself by some means. This part will perceive itself as a consciousness perceiving a world (other parts). The drama starts when, in order to make sense of the world it starts approximating it through its measuring instruments (senses) and  there are a number of such souls. It must drop down to lesser degrees of freedom, if its less evolved. We got a physical plane here

There are a finite number of peaks.

If you say so. So much depends on the method of measurement. Someone can choose the area enclosed by the curve to represent an electron. He may not bother how many peaks are there.

There are 2 halfs of an electron.

Oh no, you cant measure two halves separately. You place a detector anywhere and you find only one. But while its not being measured, the electron occupies the whole universe. The process of measuring approximates it, and the process ends only if someone with a consciousness reads the meter. But I doubt it ends there too.

[beavis]

Every time we measure something we must stop somewhere, assume the finiteness, approximate the results, use them and move on.
A rough example : say I measure the size of my bed by a tape. I get say 2.2 m. Now I increase the precision, use a better tape, I get 2.19. I go on measuring it precisely, I end up with a size = 2.17982573...... to infinity. Somehow I cant say where exactly my bed ends. If I push it more, uncertainty principle would make the bed itself meaningless. The bed remains finite...i.e. 1.

We dont know the bed is somewhere between 2.1 and 2.3 meters. It will never measure close to 1, viewing from anywhere on earth.

feel at some level the bed becomes a part of me. Its a part of my consciousness, I can't isolate it so I can't measure it.

I've felt many similar things, but that doesnt mean they're true. I should derive the probable truth from it, which could be completely different.

If you drill deep into the consciousness of a new born child, you'd find that he faces a lot of confusion regarding whats 'he' and whats 'other'. The growth is mostly focused on his ability to differentiate himself from the surroundings. More isolation = more awareness.

Babies are stupid. Why should I trust what they think?

Oh no, you cant measure two halves separately. You place a detector anywhere and you find only one. But while its not being measured, the electron occupies the whole universe.

You claim we cant measure even a single electron but that you can measure the whole universe.

The process of measuring approximates it, and the process ends only if someone with a consciousness reads the meter.

Machines read it well enough without us reading them.

One electron is shot at a flat surface with 2 holes. When 1 hole or the other is closed, the pattern of electrons hitting the surface behind the holes is recorded. When both holes are open at the same time, the single electron gives a different statistical distribution on the back surface than the sum of the first 2. If it was a particle, it could go through only 1 hole in either type of test at once, and they would be identical. They're very different. The only reasonable explanation is that the electron goes through both holes at once, and since it was 1 electron first, it must be 2 half electrons after. I'm not saying its a half particle. Its not a particle.

[Psan]

It will never measure close to 1,

I think you mistook 1 as the size of bed. By 1 I meant an identity, i.e. not an infinity.

Babies are stupid.

, what I quote is not from the mouth a of baby. These are the views of scientists studying consciousness and its emergence seriously.

You claim we cant measure even a single electron but that you can measure the whole universe.

Seems that I couldn't convey it, anyway it don't claim such thing.

Machines read it well enough without us reading them.

They do read it, but the result is a superposition of all possible results until a person sees it. He collapses the wavefunction. We all know this....

Its not a particle.

Its not a billiard ball, but its a particle, a subatomic one.
You need to come up with a smarter reply instead of 2-halves thing. Because we all know that half of infinity is still infinity
[Btw the question was whether electron is finite or infinite- a reminder]

Back to the topic -
Why don't you try creating a soul on a computer?
I tried such thing once but failed (may be I was too lazy)