Iraqis Cheer in the Streets

[Spirit_Gurl]

im happy this war is making some kind of small goodness in this world. [B)]  good for them! [^]

[MJ-12]

as

[Nerezza]

What you said is interesting MJ-12,

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.


A popular prophecy in the bible is that Damascus will be destroyed completely so who knows whats in store for the middle east.

[MJ-12]

zx

[Rob]

You cannot trust anything in the press about the war at the moment, about 90% it complete fabrication. I read a very good article on this and have been looking for it with no luck, but ever the BBC are getting really quite annoyed. Example 1: We were told they had taken Basra 9 times at the count of the articles writing, which must have been over a week ago. Complete BS. Example 2: Recently heard that Saddams hundreds of tanks had been reduced to estimated 17 (rather exact don't you think?) - I predict that this too, is utter rubbish. We would have heard about it and seen pictures of the amassed wreckage, but we have not. Only one of two, here and there, made to look like big breakthroughs.
I could go on, but there are numerous examples of flagrant lying and propaganda - on both sides, of course. It is interesting and quite enlightening to watch for them.
From what I can tell, I am afraid we still haven't seen the main battles - the Iraqi army is hundreds of thousands strong. As I see it (very, very limited vision!) current battles have involved at the very most a few thousand. Eg hosiptals in Baghdad are talking about being stretched in capacity with hundreds of wounded, if the main forces (many of which are likely to be hiding in the capital) had been employed by now, there would be many, many thousand of casualties.
The Iraqis are purposefully using strange tactics. It is entirely possible that they are trying to lull the invading army into a sense of false security, and using Baghdad as a trap, although I am not sure they are well enough organised, trained or equipted to be able to pull that off. I shouldn't think it would be too hard though, it is their city, after all, and they have had ample time to prepare. Of course, I could be wildly wrong.

I would strongly advise against simply believing one point of view, especially when emotions are strong - the info coming from the pentagon is bad enough and *then* the media spin it even worst.
The best site I have found so far for news is www.iraqwar.ru - english: http://www.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en
They seem quite impartial to all this and appear to be trying to put down the facts as they are, without all the emotional gabble of the popular press. Good old Russians!! A dependable people.

all the best

Rob

[Nerezza]

I also hope that our 3,000 Canadian troops going in there this summer get all the support and equipment they need.

It looks like my brother will be going. He wanted to go when the americans went though so he's happy about it.

[lateralus897]

I was about to post something saying that when I first heard the news, I believe it was propaganda from the government. But inguma beat me to it! I totally agree with him though, and there could be much, much more still ahead of us.  

"...all governments are lying cock suckers." -Bill Hicks

Enough said.

[MJ-12]

ss

[goingslow]

People were cheering in the streets I believe that much.

If The U.S. was defeated and our soldiers had to go home there would be people in the streets cheering.

Does a group of people in the streets cheering mean all iraqi's or even most are grateful we're bombing their cities?

There are people in our streets protesting.. does that mean we're all against war.

I dont think you can assume we did the right thing because a group of people were cheering.  Im sure there were many attending funerals too.

Course people will do it anyway.  Its nice when we can see people cheering though and feel good about what we did. It makes the masses happy.  And those without the burden of deciding to look at all stories not just the ones fed to us to make the U.S. pat itself on the back for so selflessly liberating this country.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Inguma wrote: "You cannot trust anything in the press about the war at the moment, about 90% it complete fabrication."  Whoa, that number seems a little high to me buddy.  I don't think much news is FABRICATED, which means compeltely made up.  Maybe they put a spin on it, but made up?  I believe that most journalists, especially those imbedded, are reporting the truth.  Those guys are straight up FANATICAL about objectivity and truth.  I mean, Al-Jezeera and the Iraqi minister of info, now those guys fabricate information.  Up till just a few days ago the Iraqi minister of info was saying the US were not even in Iraq!  Ha!

Anyway, I think it's too bad how both sides of any issue try to cover up the truth or twist it to make them look good.  I do think, however, that these days much of what is reported is generally true and if you read between the lines you can get at what's really going on.

Conspiracy theories abound and they are usually more off then even the most wacky news agencies.  

About American causalties in Afghanistan, 1200 US casualities seems a bit high...I am trying to find more info on that

[PeacefulWarrior]

I asked a buddy is was in the military and keeps up on the info about Afghanistan and here's what he said (and mind you this is just off the cuff, opinion):

Probably from Azzam.com.Or jhiadunspun. they tend to post a few dozen US deaths evry week.all with no tally casulties.
According to these channels of info, The "mhujadeen"in these attacks are brave and devout,the yanks run round like headless chickens firing wildly causing no kills,and the "Mujadeen" vanish immune to US surveillance,The episode is always followed by "massive indiscriminate bombing" which kills only innocent farmers.

"I think the freindly deaths all told from Op enduring freedom is apx 3 KIA,perhaps triple that WIA all all causes.Perhaps even 2 or 3 MIA's.
This is just my speculation,I tried running all the major fights through TNDM,and came out with nearly 1000 US/UK casulties for all causes & all States.This seems a bit much to cover up!

BTW.Did you know that according to Azzam,the Coalition has lost over 120 helicopters!

[Nerezza]

How does your brother feel about the Canadian arm forces? I have written my MP saying we should be spending our money on our arm forces. Of course being as I am, you can imagine it is because I want them to be able to do their job as peacekeepers.


He feels they have excellent soldiers, just really bad equipment. At the moment he's in ottawa(born in newfoundland) and all his friends said they wanted to be in Iraq already but thanks to chretian it was not so. There is a canadian military presence over there though which is kinda strange.

Give me Canadian soldiers with American equipment & I'll win the war

Erwin Rommel(which probably explains why he lost the war[])

[Tisha]

Hey, don't trash Al Jazeera.  I've been reading their english website and I've found nothing wrong with it at all.  It's no different than reading any left-leaning U.S. website or magazine.  Don't trash it until you try it:

http://english.aljazeera.net

I believe that if you listen intently to both sides, you get the best overall idea of what's really going on.  In this Iraq case, you may be sure all KINDS of things are going on, both positive and negative.  Some of the Iraqis love us, some hate us.  

Read the war diaries on http://www.bbc.com - - - first hand accounts of what's happening.  Or read the essays on http://www.npr.org . . . I especially liked one essay where a journalist wrote of one young U.S. Marine's confusion:   The Iraqis were cheering him and clapping and joyfully dancing, but they were also showing him the bottoms of their feet, a huge insult.  Also, in Iraq and other Arab countries, the thumbs-up sign means "up yours."  Please be sure they know what they are doing by sending us their mixed messages.

Arabs worldwide are confused, conflicted, happy, sad, angry, joyful, vindicated, demoralized - - - you name it, they are feeling it.  Don't try to dump them all in the same camp, they are all over the place politically.

George Bush and Tony Blair are on trial now, and they know it.  So let's hope they backpeddal on their imperialist plans and give a good enough show for the Arab nations to have history judge them well.

tisha

[MJ-12]

as

[MJ-12]

Ha

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Tisha

Hey, don't trash Al Jazeera.  

Whahey, hi Tisha!

Thought we'd lost you.

Yours,
Frank

[solomon]

quote:Originally posted by Inguma

From what I can tell, I am afraid we still haven't seen the main battles - the Iraqi army is hundreds of thousands strong.

They WERE.  Most have defected, surrendered, or been killed.  

quote:The Iraqis are purposefully using strange tactics. It is entirely possible that they are trying to lull the invading army into a sense of false security, and using Baghdad as a trap

Yeah, they've got us right where we want them [)]

quote:Of course, I could be wildly wrong.

You betcha.  There's just NO WAY that the reports could be fabricated to the extent you seem to believe possible.  

quote:I would strongly advise against simply believing one point of view, especially when emotions are strong - the info coming from the pentagon is bad enough and *then* the media spin it even worst.
The best site I have found so far for news is www.iraqwar.ru - english: http://www.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en
They seem quite impartial to all this and appear to be trying to put down the facts as they are, without all the emotional gabble of the popular press. Good old Russians!! A dependable people.

Yeah, the old publishers of Pravda!  Sure can trust THEM for the truth!  Do you really believe this?

[PeacefulWarrior]

Frank is great, he's always hiding in the shadows and then, boom, he suddenly appears for a moment, a fading specter leaving a message, and he's gone.  

Sometimes I wish I weren't such a rabble rouser.  But it's fun!

A lot of the stuff I bring up just to bring it up and get people talking, is that bad???
[8D][][}:)][][][:O][}:)][8D][)]

About Al Jezeera, what a freakin' joke...while one might gain valuable insights into how others think and feel, one thing you won't get from them is any objectivity, I mean they have pictures of little kids with bomber superimposed on the image....to me it's like 1920's propoganda or something.  Maybe other news ources are guilty of not being objective, but at least they do a better job of covering it up!

[MJ-12]

Es

[James S]

About the accuracy of the press, well exactly how accurate is the tripe coming from the Iraqi Sinister for Disinformation?

As to the general acuracy of the media, roughly 10 years ago one of the Uni's in Australia produced some report that stated only approximately 20% of what comes out of the various forms of news media is accurate.
At least thats what their report stated

As to who's going to look after Iraq, the Aussie papers have been boasting that Australia is going to have the key role in assisting the reformation of the government of Iraq.
At least thats what the media says.

Believe it........or not!

This is James, reporting to you from right on top if the fence.

[Rob]

"They WERE. Most have defected, surrendered, or been killed."
Oh? Well, foolish me! How about pointing me in the direction of, say, a photo of a few of tens of thousand of Iraqis surrendering then? If they have been surrendering en mass, the popular press would be screaming it out....but....
or if they had been just dropping arms and running, we would have seen the columns of deserters leaving baghdad but....well, they probably learned not to desert the Iraqi army after the US bombed and killed so many thousands of deserters on the "highway of death" last war.

"You betcha. There's just NO WAY that the reports could be fabricated to the extent you seem to believe possible. "
Why not? Journalists who are not imbedded get beaten and escorted out of the country like those poor Portugese blokes a while back. And the ones who are imbedded (ALL the popular press ones) are shown only what the military want to show them, which is not a whole lot, and so the press relies almost totally on news from the pentagon and london when it comes to anything important ie not just getting pretty pictures of statues of saddam statues being toppled, but actually looking at the larger picture. The embedded journalists get to see a very small part of the human side, what its like for soldiers. Thats all.
Further have the constant threat of censorship and being chucked from the country, should they step out of line. I mean, seriously, what journalist is going to write anything bad about the war when they are surrounded by marines who read their every word? It stinks.

"Yeah, the old publishers of Pravda! Sure can trust THEM for the truth! Do you really believe this?"
Hey!! I like Pravda!!!
I trust them more than the popular press, which told you about "crowds of cheering Iraqis". What they didn't tell you:
http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=2561&lang=en
The bigger picture counts:
http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=2559&lang=en

I am sticking to my guns with 90% fabrication. This comes from actual EVIDENCE rather than postulation. Even I was totally shocked by the amount of BS being released.
Like I said, at the time of the articles writing I read (which I still cant find!! ggrr!!) Basra had been taken 9 times. If it was then taken properly that leaves....90% fabrication, like I said. However, it is more than like that they lied another say, 5 times, before it was actually taken, which would give us 94% rubbish.
Then there were the chemical "weapons" which were found and touted so loudly. Eeeerrmm - pesticide?! Damn those Iraqis for killing insects!!! Murderers!!!!!!!!! hehehe. I could go on.

But, if you want to get emotional, try the other side of the coin, the REAL human cost:
http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=2542&lang=en

adios
Rob

[Nerezza]

This is diffently real, it was on the internet so it has to be.[]

[clandestino]

! ha ha....I got that picture in my e-mail too... the title was "Just Joking !"

Now that the war appears to be coming to a conclusion (I don't believe that the iraqi troops believe in their cause, in the same way that the koreans and viets did) perhaps we can start invading a few more countries, eh ?

I'm not particularly happy with the way the Burmese are running their country - lets invade them. Also, I don't particularly like the governments of Nigeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morroco ( continue through 50% of the African countries)....Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Turkey....Move back to Asia and we can mention China, Phillipines, India & Pakistan...over in Europe, a couple spring to mind, N. Ireland / UK , Romania, Serbia....

I could go on. Why should we invade these countries ? Well, "they have links with terrorism".....no, wait..."errr.. they have weapons of mass destruction. Well, maybe they don't, but they want them."......hmmmmm, that doesn't really sound tenable. How about "Yes, we're doing it for the people, we are setting them free". Yes, that'll win them over.

Why don't I believe the variety of reasons given to us by the USA and UK governments ? It should be blantantly obvious.

At the tube station yesterday a lady tried to give me a leaflet saying " this war is being fought in your name, do something about it". However I didn't take the leaflet because if the biggest peaceful demonstration in UK history can't change the government's direction then that leaflet won't either.

[Tisha]

Yeah I'm back Frank!  My home has a new roof, ceiling, floor, carpet paint . . . whew . . . also, from the perspective of a Defense employee I've been glued to the Internet and the evening news. I  keep checking for some kind of breakthrough, hoping I'll go online  and see the words "And they lived happily ever after, The End," on my computer screen.  Fat chance, but I keep hoping.

Anyway, as to the media, I really don't think individual reporters lie.  Networks "spin," but reporters tend to simply report.  Unfortunately reporters see reality as through a drinking straw . . . . one little bit of the action, and then the Network spins reporters' stories into the Lie that this is all that's happening (i.e., Al Jazeera and its photos of dead/injured children), or that it's NOT happening by refusing to show it (i.e., Syria did not show the happy dancing Iraquis taking down the Saddam imagery).

Something I noticed that I bet a lot of people didn't:  Many journalists got the video footage of the man slapping the big poster of Saddam with his shoe.  They probably also filmed the guy lifting up his caftan to pee on the photo.   However, none of the U.S. TV stations showed the guy lifting his clothes to pee . . . but the BBC sure did.  

My point:  I think U.S. TV stations draw the line at certain distateful things (i.e., they won't show blood, urine, too much nudity, etc.). As a result, they get accused of glossing over the "truth" or being prudish or whatever.  But I think TV stations in the U.S. are afraid of angry people calling the station to complain.   I wonder if TV stations in other countries have to worry about this sort of thing . . . individuals and groups threatening to boycott advertised products if TV stations show too much gore, bodily fluids or smut while they are trying to eat dinner with the kids.  

The moral of the story:  Be a news slut. Get around!  Watch and read indiscriminately! Then draw your own conclusions.  If you're convinced that only one version of the "truth" should enter your mind, and read only Pravda or The Nation or the NY Times or whatever . . . then admit that you're completely deluded.

At any rate, the U.S. military in Iraq had better start imposing some law and order, the looting over there is disgraceful.  It's certainly not winning the U.S. any compassion "points."  And where is all this humanitarian aid that's been promised?  How hard is it to dig a g*dd*mn well and get some clean water flowing?

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Tisha

Yeah I'm back Frank!

Nice to again read your slant on things. I'm doubly pleased the house-works have been completed and it is great to hear your on-line voice again... being a "news slut" LOL that almost had me off my chair.

All the best.

Yours,
Frank