The Astral Pulse

but fenris, if baptism has no effect, how could the non-existant effect be reversed anyway?

actually, baptism does have an effect, or at least it did for me. but i CHOSE to be baptised. baptism is supposed to be a choice on the behalf of a person to die to their old life of sin and selfishness and evil and et al, and to live a new life "in Christ". so baptising a child is meaningless and an act of evil because the person is FORCING the child to be baptised .and even though it isn't against their will (cause little babies have no will) it isn't a choice made by the baptisee (is that a word?).  therefore, unethical, evil, and (though it may be religious) un-spiritual and unGodly.

as to what right a parent has to do stuff to their child, well that depends on whether you believe that a child is the "property" of the parent or is a completely independant (and by the definition of independance, this is impossible) being from birth on till death.

i like rocking boats; it makes people re-evaluate what is important. as well it forces people to start thinking about important issues.  jeez i'm a jerk  :)

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

Infantile baptism is an abomination.  Kakkarot was right, baptism is the act of shedding ones old life and taking on certain covenants.  Babies are innocent and incapable of making decisions and do not need to be cleansed in any way.  Blessing a child, etc. is fine and in fact, IMHO, necessary...but baptising a child is ludicrous.

fides quaerens intellectum

Think you misread my post Kakkarot, I did say that baptism has an effect not that it does nothing.

Seems most people so far seem to see things the same way I do, are there any members here who have baptised a child, if so please share your opinion.

regards

David

Veni Vidi Vici

Hi,

I was baptised when I was a baby, and it doesn't bother me one bit.
My parents, in baptising me, were doing something that they thought or think is right. I don't think its something to get upset over. They are religous. I'm not religous. I think it shows that they love me and want what they consider is best for me.

How about this:
If you were walking along the street one day, and someone stopped you, put their finger in the dirt or something, then made a symbol of somekind on your hand, and said they "name you a such'n such in the name of whoever" What would your reaction be? How would you feel about that? They might think they're doing you a favour, in naming you in their belief. Would you be just as upset about it as you would if you were baptised?

Nobody can tell you who you are, what you feel, and what you do. You are you, no matter what anyone else may say.

Oliver-

There is a difference between naming someone in relation to a belief and initiating someone into a belief. As a ritual baptism does create subtle changes to someone, and I have read (Judith Collins's seeing and percieving the human aura) that baptism does create a visible change to the aura - thus a change to the soul (if you agree that the aura is the image of the soul).

In some magical circles some believe that people who were baptised as children do not have the same ability to recieve magical initiation as those who were not baptised. Im not sure if I agree with this though, Im sure there would be notable examples who have proved this wrong.

Regardless an initiation does have an effect on you, weither you agree or not. If someone named me into something I would be humored and maybe even a little flattered. If someone attempted to iniate me into something I did not agree with I would feel inclined to take their teeth, in my opinion no physical abuse can equal an abuse of the soul. Initation of any sort should never be taken lightly.

Does anyone nkow of how you could un-baptise yourself if you were so inclined, or is it truely impossible?

regards

David

Veni Vidi Vici

I agree in one way an disagree in another. It is wrong to force a religion
on a child. but on the other hand when people get older they can change their belife system. I was baptised, and Im not christian.

On the other hand, I do belive that a baptism (as any strong religious cermon) has a greta effect, and could help keep of evil forces from the child. So I actually think it is a vaild, though not wery strong protection. Of course the parents could perform the LBRP too, but most don´t. So I can actually see the value of the baptism. After al, the church have no real initiations. If you do a real initiation, you have to take a personal stand, saying something. The child only gets batised- so I don´t think it´s binding.

Felix


-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

Fenris,

I disagree with you.  How would this work? It couldn't. Can't any situation change how the aura looks at any given time? For example, someone having fun, or being bored?

Ok, so to get this straight, what you believe is, if someone says to you that they initiate you into something that they believe in, it damages your soul in some way?

So if someone you passed by on the street believed ummm, lets say that clouds are gods, and he worships them, and so on, and he does the little thing with the dirt on your hand and says he initiates you into his religion, would you consider that the same as being baptised? Would you want to fight this man, for what he has done to you?

How does violence make it better? He's already "initiated" you into his belief. In hurting him physically, does that change what he's done to you from your point of view? Would hurting him "even" the scale?

Do you also believe that if someone was to base a religion on another person, when that person does not want that to happen at all, would that affect that person's soul in someway?

Oliver

I believe so.

An individual should choose their beliefs and not be forced to conform to their parents beliefs.

Such acts halt progress.. Young minds are being blinded to the spiritual world because of the general public feeling about it.

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Greetings all,

        A child is born innocent, when you watch an infant at rest sometimes they appear to be looking at something, they are, there ego's. The ego's have nothing to work with yet, they hover waiting to enter.Talk to most parents, the baby's been fed, nappies just been changed, the little ones comfortable, you leave the room and sometime later the baby lets out a big cry. The little one has had a fright, more than likely it's an ego. The same when you sneak a look at them at night sometimes and they seem as if there playing with some one, they are, ego's.

          We as adults can spend a whole lifetime(s) trying to become one with the "it", "god", "the essance", new borns are from it.
       
          I've been told that by the age of seven or there abouts most if not all the ego's have entered. Unfortunualty the way life is, by the way we live, it's us adults that give rise to the ego's entry into the little ones. If not us, life itself, the system.

            Due to the above I believe a child is not required to be baptized at birth, maybe later on if so inclined.

Regards  Steve

A Little Child Shall Lead Them
Ensign, June 2002

By President Thomas S. Monson


During the Galilean ministry of our Lord and Savior, the disciples came unto Him, saying: "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matt. 18:1–6).


The Many Faces of Child Abuse

Some time ago, as I read the daily newspaper, my thoughts turned to this passage and the firm candor of the Savior's declaration. In one column of the newspaper I read of a custody battle between the mother and father of a child. Accusations were made, threats hurled, and anger displayed as parents moved here and there on the international scene with the child spirited away from one continent to another.

A second story told of a 12-year-old lad who was beaten and set on fire because he refused a neighborhood bully's order to take drugs.

Still a third report told of a father's sexual molestation of his small child.

A physician once revealed to me the large number of abused children who are being brought to the emergency rooms of local hospitals in your city and mine. In many cases guilty parents provide fanciful accounts of the child falling from his high chair or stumbling over a toy and striking his head. Altogether too frequently it is discovered that the parent was the abuser and the innocent child the victim. Shame on the perpetrators of such vile deeds. God will hold such strictly accountable for their actions.


Children Are Precious to the Lord

When we realize just how precious children are, we will not find it difficult to follow the pattern of the Master in our association with them. Not long ago, a sweet scene took place at the Salt Lake Temple. Children, who had been ever so tenderly cared for by faithful workers in the temple nursery, were now leaving in the arms of their mothers and fathers. One child turned to the lovely women who had been so kind to the children and, with a wave of her arm, spoke the feelings of her heart as she exclaimed, "Good night, angels."

The poet described a child so recently with its Heavenly Father as "a sweet new blossom of Humanity, fresh fallen from God's own home to flower on earth."1

Who among us has not praised God and marveled at His powers when an infant is held in one's arms? That tiny hand, so small yet so perfect, instantly becomes the topic of conversation. No one can resist placing his little finger in the clutching hand of an infant. A smile comes to the lips, a certain glow to the eyes, and one appreciates the tender feelings which prompted the poet to pen the lines:

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar;
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home.2

When the disciples of Jesus attempted to restrain the children from approaching Him, He declared:

"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

"And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them" (Mark 10:14–16).

What a magnificent pattern for us to follow.


We Can Bless the Lives of Children

Several years ago my heart burned warmly within me when the First Presidency approved the allocation of a substantial sum from some special fast-offering contributions to join with those funds from Rotary International that polio vaccine might be provided and the children living in Kenya immunized against this vicious crippler and killer of children.

I thank God for the work of our doctors who leave for a time their own private practices and journey to distant lands to minister to children. Cleft palates and other deformities which would leave a child impaired physically and damaged psychologically are skillfully repaired. Despair yields to hope. Gratitude replaces grief. These children can now look in the mirror and marvel at a miracle in their own lives.

In a meeting, I once told of a dentist in my ward who each year visited the Philippine Islands to work his skills without compensation to provide corrective dentistry for children. Smiles were restored, spirits lifted, and futures enhanced. I did not know that the daughter of this dentist was in the congregation to which I was speaking. At the conclusion of my remarks, she came forward and, with a broad smile of proper pride, said, "You have been speaking of my father. How I love him and what he is doing for children!"

In the faraway islands of the Pacific, hundreds who were near-blind now see because a missionary said to his physician brother-in-law, "Leave your wealthy clientele and the comforts of your palatial home and come to these special children of God who need your skills and need them now." The ophthalmologist responded without a backward glance. He has commented quietly that this visit was the best service he ever rendered and the peace which came to his heart the greatest blessing of his life.

Tears came easily to me when I read of a father who donated one of his own kidneys in the hope that his son might have a more abundant life. I have dropped to my knees at night and have added my prayer of faith in behalf of a mother in my community who journeyed to Chicago that she might provide part of her liver to her daughter in a delicate and potentially life-threatening surgery. She, who already had gone down into the valley of the shadow of death to bring forth this child into mortality, again put her hand in the hand of God and placed her own life in jeopardy for her child. Never a complaint, but ever a willing heart and a prayer of faith.

Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles once shared the pitiable plight of many orphan children in Romania—perhaps 30,000 in the city of Bucharest alone. He visited one such orphanage and arranged that the Church might provide vaccine, medical dressings, and other urgently needed supplies. Certain couples were identified and called to fill special missions to these children. I can think of no more Christlike service than to hold a motherless child in one's arms or to take a fatherless boy by the hand.

We need not be called to missionary service, however, in order to bless the lives of children. Our opportunities are limitless. They are everywhere to be found- sometimes very close to home.


How Children Bless Our Lives

Several years ago I received a letter from a woman who had emerged from a long period of Church inactivity. She was ever so anxious for her husband, who as yet was not a member of the Church, to share the joy she felt.

She wrote of a trip which she, her husband, and their three sons made from the family home to Grandmother's home in Idaho. While driving through Salt Lake City, they were attracted by the message which appeared on a billboard. The message invited them to visit Temple Square. Bob, the nonmember husband, made the suggestion that a visit would be pleasant. The family entered the visitors' center, and Father took two sons up a ramp that one called "the ramp to heaven." Mother and three-year-old Tyler were a bit behind the others, they having paused to appreciate the beautiful paintings which adorned the walls. As they walked toward the magnificent sculpture of Thorvaldsen's Christus, tiny Tyler bolted from his mother and ran to the base of the Christus, while exclaiming, "It's Jesus! It's Jesus!" As Mother attempted to restrain her son, Tyler looked back toward her and his father and said, "Don't worry. He likes children."

After departing the center and again making their way along the freeway toward Grandmother's, Dad asked Tyler what he liked best about their adventure on Temple Square. Tyler smiled up at him and said, "Jesus."

"How do you know that Jesus likes you, Tyler?"

Tyler, with a most serious expression on his face, looked up at his father's eyes and answered, "Dad, didn't you see His face?" Nothing else needed to be said.

As I read this account, I thought of the statement from the book of Isaiah, "And a little child shall lead them" (Isa. 11:6).

The words of a Primary hymn express the feelings of a child's heart:

Tell me the stories of Jesus I love to hear,
Things I would ask him to tell me if he were here.
Scenes by the wayside, tales of the sea,
Stories of Jesus, tell them to me.

Oh, let me hear how the children stood round his knee.
I shall imagine his blessings resting on me;
Words full of kindness, deeds full of grace,
All in the lovelight of Jesus' face.3


Blessing the Nephite Children

I know of no more touching passage in scripture than the account of the Savior blessing the children, as recorded in 3 Nephi. The Master spoke movingly to the vast multitude of men, women, and children. Then, responding to their faith and the desire that He tarry longer, He invited them to bring to Him their lame, their blind, and their sick, that He might heal them. With joy they accepted His invitation. The record reveals that "he did heal them every one" (3 Ne. 17:9). There followed His mighty prayer to His Father. The multitude bore record: "The eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard, before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father" (3 Ne. 17:16).

Concluding this magnificent event, Jesus "wept, . . . and he took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them. . . .

"And he spake unto the multitude, and said unto them: Behold your little ones.

"And as they looked to behold they cast their eyes towards heaven, and they saw the heavens open, and they saw angels descending out of heaven . . . ; and they came down and encircled those little ones . . . ; and the angels did minister unto them" (3 Ne. 17:21, 23–24).

Over and over in my mind I pondered the phrase, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein" (Mark 10:15).


Thomas Michael Wilson

One who fulfilled in his life this admonition of the Savior was a missionary, Thomas Michael Wilson. He is the son of Willie and Julia Wilson, Route 2, Box 12, Lafayette, Alabama. Elder Wilson completed his earthly mission on 13 January 1990. When he was but a teenager, and he and his family were not yet members of the Church, he was stricken with cancer, followed by painful radiation therapy, and then blessed remission. This illness caused his family to realize that not only is life precious but that it can also be short. The family began to look to religion to help them through this time of tribulation. Subsequently they were introduced to the Church and baptized. After accepting the gospel, young Brother Wilson yearned for the opportunity of being a missionary. A mission call came for him to serve in the Utah Salt Lake City Mission. What a privilege to represent the family and the Lord as a missionary!

Elder Wilson's missionary companions described his faith as like that of a child–unquestioning, undeviating, unyielding. He was an example to all. After 11 months, illness returned. Bone cancer now required the amputation of his arm and shoulder. Yet he persisted in his missionary labors.

Elder Wilson's courage and consuming desire to remain on his mission so touched his nonmember father that he investigated the teachings of the Church and also became a member.

An anonymous caller brought to my attention Elder Wilson's plight. She said she didn't want to leave her name and indicated she'd never before called a General Authority. However, she said, "You don't often meet someone of the caliber of Elder Wilson."

I learned that an investigator whom Elder Wilson had taught was baptized at the baptistry on Temple Square but then wanted to be confirmed by Elder Wilson, whom she respected so much. She, with a few others, journeyed to Elder Wilson's bedside in the hospital. There, with his remaining hand resting upon her head, Elder Wilson confirmed her a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Elder Wilson continued month after month his precious but painful service as a missionary. Blessings were given; prayers were offered. The spirit of his fellow missionaries soared. Their hearts were full. They lived closer to God.

Elder Wilson's physical condition deteriorated. The end drew near. He was to return home. He asked to serve but one additional month. What a month this was! Like a child trusting implicitly its parents, Elder Wilson put his trust in God. He whom Thomas Michael Wilson silently trusted opened the windows of heaven and abundantly blessed him. His parents, Willie and Julia Wilson, and his brother Tony came to Salt Lake City to help their son and brother home to Alabama. However, there was yet a prayed-for, a yearned-for, blessing to be bestowed. The family invited me to come with them to the Jordan River Utah Temple, where those sacred ordinances which bind families for eternity, as well as for time, were performed.

I said good-bye to the Wilson family. I can see Elder Wilson yet as he thanked me for being with him and his loved ones. He said, "It doesn't matter what happens to us in this life as long as we have the gospel of Jesus Christ and live it." What courage. What confidence. What love. The Wilson family made the long trek home to Lafayette, where Elder Thomas Michael Wilson slipped from here to eternity.

President Kevin K. Meadows, Elder Wilson's branch president, presided at the funeral services. The words of his subsequent letter to me I share with you: "On the day of the funeral, I took the family aside and expressed to them, President Monson, the sentiments you sent to me. I reminded them of what Elder Wilson had told you that day in the temple, that it did not matter whether he taught the gospel on this or the other side of the veil, so long as he could teach the gospel. I gave to them the inspiration you provided from the writings of President Joseph F. Smith [1838–1918]—that Elder Wilson had completed his earthly mission and that he, as all 'faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead' [D&C 138:57]. The Spirit bore record that this was the case. Elder Thomas Michael Wilson was buried with his missionary name tag in place."

When Elder Wilson's mother and father visit that rural cemetery and place flowers of remembrance on the grave of their son, I feel certain they remember the day he was born, the pride they felt, and the genuine joy that was theirs. This tiny child became the mighty man who later brought to them the opportunity to achieve celestial glory. Perhaps on these pilgrimages, when emotions are close to the surface and tears cannot be restrained, they thank God for their missionary son, who never lost the faith of a child, and then ponder deep within their hearts the Master's words, "And a little child shall lead them" (Isa. 11:6).

Peace is their blessing. It will be our blessing, also, as we remember and follow the Prince of Peace.


Gospel topics: Jesus Christ, children, abuse, service, faith


Notes

1. Gerald Massey, "Wooed and Won," in The Home Book of Quotations, sel. Burton Stevenson (1934), 121.

2. William Wordsworth, "Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood," The Complete Poetical Works of William Wordsworth (1924), 359.

3. "Tell Me the Stories of Jesus," Children's Songbook, 57.


fides quaerens intellectum

yeah, i did misread fenris. sorry. i thought it said "is a ritual of initiation that does (NOT) seem to have a real effect". my bad. so sorry.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

I was baptised as a child.  I don't really care.
I look at it this way... If the child turns out to be religious, then hey they are happy and satisfied.  If they aren't religious, then who gives a damn because its meaningless to them.   This is assuming the parents really believe forcing a child into this ritual is actually going to have a purpose...if they do then hey let them do what makes them happy.
How could you really be mad at your parents for dipping your head in water?  If you care about something like that then you really have to much time on your hands. =)

Now if your christian AND your mad at your parents for baptising you, thats another story.  I can understand someone being mad that they couldn't choose to do it themselves...but even then you could probably get it done again with true intent...so whatever


[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

Hi Oliver

Firstly Ill try and make it clear that while I enjoy an intellectual debate I hate a bitter argument. So if I come of as being heated over it thats not my intent. Its the difference between learning from each other and getting angry Im referring to.

"How would this work? It couldn't. Can't any situation change how the aura looks at any given time? For example, someone having fun, or being bored?"

Yes you are partly correct, a part of the aura does change rapidly with emotion, however in another place things remain for a very long time. While I am developing auric sight at a pace to my satisfaction I am a long way from perceiving such a subtle change myself. I'm sure Robert would have an opinion on this as he has had auric sight for a long while. I am careful to list a source when I have not seen something with my own eyes, note that I did this. My experience with initiation rituals however is extensive enough that I can say with confidence that a well-constructed ritual initiation does permanently change an individual. Or perhaps it would be better put as creating a potentially life long change- as I have had no experience with anyone wishing to un-initiate (Im sure there is a word for it? ) themselves from anything. So while I am prepared to say that an initiation cant be undone I am not going to make a belief out of it. If initiation creates a lasting change of any sort rest assured that this change (along with any to the mind or body) will be reflected in the aura. So if I am prepared to say that it does create a lasting change from my own observation and personal experience than I would logically agree that it also changes the aura – as above see below.

I said:
"...in my opinion no physical abuse can equal an abuse of the soul. Initiation of any sort should never be taken lightly"

You replied:
"Ok, so to get this straight, what you believe is, if someone says to you that they initiate you into something that they believe in, it damages your soul in some way?"

I should have gone deeper here. Ill use the example of your dirty-fingered man. If this guy came up and did his little initiation thing on a person unless that man had a great deal of personal energy/power he would have no real effect. But if there were a million of these cloud worshipers and cloud worshiping and dirty-fingered initiation had gone on for a few thousand years than things would be different. The symbolism that the man uses would have great power associated with it from all of the belief people had and do attribute to it. So if this were the case it would indeed be similar to baptism, in the same way the magical initiation is. Initiation rituals get their potency from the power of the symbolism used, it would not surprise me if the Christian ritual involving pouring blessed water over the head had been used by another group for long before the Christians adopted it.

I also said:
"...I would feel inclined to take their teeth"

You also responded:
"How does violence make it better? He's already "initiated" you into his belief. In hurting him physically, does that change what he's done to you from your point of view? Would hurting him "even" the scale?"

The idea of using violence and being a 'spiritual' person might seem backward, and it is. It is also highly out of my character. Ill write this assuming we are referring to the cloud man that has a million others of his faith and a few thousand years of cloud worshiping behind him and not the one I would ignore or strike up conversation with. Wether I am right or I am wrong I at the present believe that well founded initiation rituals DO have an effect, so you must remember that my response to the man would be considering this belief. If it seemed to me that the man had done something which had subtly affected me I would be most displeased. Violence may not be right but the idea that it solves nothing is not entirely true. Violence solves lots of things, mainly superficial, controversial of me to say it however – and just my opinion. And pain is a powerful learning stimulus, I would feel that this man needs to learn that he cant just go around initiating people because he feels he is helping them (parallel to baptism not intended) and that effecting another's most sacred place (the soul) is not right. Hurting him would not fix my problem, and it would not satisfy me, but reasoning with someone with religious meaning behind their action is useless. Hospitalising him might not get it through his head either, but it has more of a chance of conveying that others and I might not appreciate his practice.

"Do you also believe that if someone was to base a religion on another person, when that person does not want that to happen at all, would that affect that person's soul in someway?"

No it would not, but the same force that gives symbols power when enough belief is associated with them would create a change of sorts. But it would be complicated and Ive typed lots already.

What neither of us considered originally was if my having a will not to be initiated by the cloud man would effect or stop the power associated with his ritual, unlike a baptised baby with no will. Maybe if I believed that he could not affect me he couldn't, and there would be no violence.

I admire the way you critically evaluate things and break things down, a good skill to have.

Kakkarot – don't worry I will forgive you in time  

best regards

David



Veni Vidi Vici

Time heals all wounds.  So they say.

If a person was truely intent on having the effects of baptism remove the could very well asked to ex-communicated.  As baptism is the welcoming of one into the fold, ex-communication is the almost perminant removal of a person from the same.  Of course this is only the Catholic Church and you most diffinatly get a lot of resistance in having it done.  As they are for the most part an "in for life" group and those that have been ex-communicated in the past were so because of considered grevious crimes against the church or against God.   They would try thier best to talk you out of it though if you asked and try to get you all kinds "help" because you apparently need it.  But such is thier thinking.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

cainam: "but such is their thinking". i think it is dumb thinking. christians are not supposed to FORCE other people into christianity, hell they aren't even supposed to persuade others into it. the role of the christian is to teach others about the "Will of God" and to help 'those who wish to become christians' to become christians. God, not man, changes people's hearts towards his way, according to the bible.

Fenris:yes there is a way to reverse this effect other than ex-communication. modify your soul. if someone has done something to your soul, learn how to "feel" your soul and learn how to change your self so completely that you can get rid of anything you don't want there. for instance, someone once tried to bind me a few years ago, soon after i found chi. i don't know who it was, but it felt like a really strong binding compared to my power at the time (though now, if i ever encountered a binding such as that i would destroy it in about three seconds). it took my soul a full day, on its own, to remove the binding. i didn't even try, i just let my soul work itself out, and it did. and the same can be done for any initiation effects that are put on someone.

but thinking on it now, your idea that initiations affect the soul permanently sound a lot like the reiki attunements.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

I do not think that it is wrong really, but to me personally I see it as pointless. Here is why, I do not think that the actual act of baptising does much. What I think does is the person themself wanting to follow Christainity and making this display to show they are commited. It is the person's choice and will  that actually effects them and not so much so just going under water and coming back up. Since a child has no will of such things then it is really pointless, but the parents will for protection of the child could grant something to it.

These are my opinions and I sure do not wish to upset anyone. My idea that baptism is just a display may spawn arguments. Let me say that I am not saying it is bad if that is what you believe. But do let me say this, in all the Christain sects that I have visited it the main idea is that if you are not baptised or have not made public display of your loyalty to Christainity that you will not go to heaven. So what about the people who do decide to follow Christ but say get killed before they are baptised? I say this because when I was younger such an event occured, so I was told about. The preacher at the funeral of this boy who had decided to follow Christ but was killed before being baptised said that the boy was going to hell because he was not baptised. So what is your thoughts on this? Is it the baptising that is important or is it the person's will?

You see this is one of the other things that I have problems with.  More so in the Catholic Church, more so with Roman Catholics.   They always talk about the body being the temple of God and the Church the House of God.  So "if" I was a follower of God and my body is the Temple of God then why would I have to do anything with the church to include baptism as long as I adhere to the teachings in the bible and trust that I am a follower of God?
The Holy Roman Catholic Church does not and would agree to this.  They say you have to go to church, you have to get baptised, you have to go to communion, and you have to go to confession or you won't "get in".  It is all double talk.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

the catholic church is not the Church of God. i don't care if i draw flak for this, but in truth, the catholic church has deviated SO far from the teachings in the bible, that the only way a catholic is getting into heaven is by the grace of God. just like everyone else.

baptism is a display to others, but it is SO much more than that to the few people who understand it and go through it for the right reasons.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

Hey Fenris,

I agree, I don't like arguing, arguing is trying to get the other person to agree with you, and I don't see a point in that because everyone is an individual with their own thoughts, and plus, its just not fun to argue. Also, I'd like to add I'm not getting angry over this either. I guess its important on an internet forum to point out sometimes, that you're not getting angry or upeset at all over anything, since somethings could be taken the way their not intended to be taken.

Ok, now back to the topic.

I just don't think the beliefs of others can affect another person no matter how many people share the belief. Babys may be stronger than you think, and what makes you think they have no will? I don't see how the beliefs of others could do this.

Now about Violence..
Violence is something which saddens me. Well not in all cases, it depends on the emotion behind it.  Like in boxing, its a sport, and the people who box aren't fighting with hate or anything like that, they are fighting for their love of the sport I would say. Although You didn't say you would hate the cloud believing guy or anything, its just my natrual reaction to question violence.
Its something which I haven't actually come to terms with myself.
Is it ever a good choice to make, to use violence. Where do you draw the line?

Ok, I'm going to have to go in a few minutes, and theres a lot of thought I've put behind this, so I might post a bit more later......

Ok, lets say you hit this guy, then you both get into a fight.. weather you overpower him, or the otherway around, he still sees that you don't appreciate what he did. But who knows what happens from there. What if you both satdown somewhere and you explained to him your feelings over the matter? Who knows what would happen then.. it might work, it might not.
But if everytime he tried initiating someone, he got a big long talking to about not doing that, maybe he'd get bored of the same talk all the time and give it up.... Who knows.. you can't really say as this is a hypothetical character and everyone is different.

If he had three of his freinds with him, and you had three of yours, then it could become a brawl or something. The only difference between a fistfight between two people, and a war between two nations, is the numbers, and firepower.

Ok, I'm going to have to stop here, but I'll post again.

Oliver
:)

I think I am flawed in saying that babies have no will, thank you for pointing it out. Clearly they have some will or they would not be alive. I think they do have the will to survive, what they do not have is understanding. A baby does not understand religion or rituals. Baptising the baby is pretty much to put the parents minds at easy and if it works then great.
One question is that if you were baptised as a baby and then decide to follow another belief, what does it matter? If you do not believe that Christainity is correct when why would you believe that baptism has any power?

Violence:
Clearly there are times that violence is needed. Would any disagree that it is needed when defending your nation? If a people did not believe in violence and refused to do it, well there are other people out there that are not and would be more than happy to kill them and take over their nation. This kills off the teachings against violence and allows the more violent people to breed and promote their ideas. So yes there is a time for violence otherwise this world would be run by violent people with no one else in it. We would all be ruled by Hitler. The difference is responsible violence and irresponsible.

What I find most amusing is the people that think peace is promoted with violence. George Bush has said that the US may need to strike first to keep other nations from starting a war. Does anyone else find a flaw in this idea? Violence, though needed at times, only promotes more violence. You cannot attack someone and then say ok now lets have peace. Peace produces peace, violence produces violence.

Hi Fenris,

I know this is a little late in the piece, but here's my 2c. I don't claim anything here, but I have learnt the theology of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism on this one, combined with a little magickal learning (nothing like the wyzard Fenris of course ) :-

Like so many ancient Christian rituals, baptism in my view is a magickal rite. I say this because through various tools, invocations and blessings a distinct effect is had on the child. This is exactly what occurs in any other magickal operation.

The debate about infant vs adult baptism should not be about acceptance of a dogma. When the Church adopted infant baptism, they introduced the rite of adult Confirmation, which was intended to be point of formal acceptance of dogma. Although baptism historically has had that place, it now serves another function.

In baptism, very real blessings are conferred on a child. The celebrant is asking a Holy Spirit and invoking the name of Christ on the child's behalf. Group egregores, as well as prayerful blessings (having their own power) are being used to bestow protection and spiritual influence on the child. Permission is irrelevant with a child - who would not invoke the power and guidance of a Deity on a child, with the benefits this has? When the child is mature, they may reject the influence of that Deity, with or without the attached dogma, through their own rituals. No-one is forcing the child into a religion - their free will still remains. The child's parents, upbringing and own inclinations have far greater effects on their belief system that a baptism.

In short, it is an effective invocation of God and the Deity Jesus to offer spiritual benefits to one of his new creations. They have in some respects been put on a Christian path, but this enhances the benefits and protection of the rite. If a child were to eg. become a Setian, they would obviously revoke the forces that has been called on them up to that point....

Adults who have gone through baptism needn't fear that they've been hexed with a Christian curse - these are spiritual benefits being called into action!

Cheers (sorry for length of post ),
Joe

Sir Joe

The way you have put Christianity in parrallel with my beliefs and practices makes things a lot easier to understand. My ignorance of Christian type behaviour is now somewhat apparent. Although I see and have said that the Christian ritual of Baptism is using the same forces as might be used in a magical initiation I have not looked at the ideology behind this practice entierly fairly.

Perhaps my strong resentment of preaching (I have christian friends who are against it to, and some that do it) and Christianity attempting to force itself onto people throught history and in contemporay time (so much knowledge, history, intelligence/good genes, and Life has been lost) has spilled over into my view of baptism. What im saying (before confusing everyone with too many things in brackits ) is that it is easy to see baptism as an attempt to 'get em while they are young' and neglect the side of loving parents trying to protect their children the only way they know how.

Im not saying that it is right to conduct a permanent ritual on an infant - or anybody (although some think it might not be so permanent) but it does now seem more difficlut to critisise parents for Baptising their children when Love and protection are bought into the equation. So Im not saying that I agree with it ( it is still placing/forcing ones beliefs on a  another), but I now certainly can empathise with parents who do it.

Wow Joe you made me see another point of view...Now thats tallent!

"I dont know much about God...But we built a fine cage for him"
Homer as a misionary

Oliver- Maybe we should make another famous Astral Chat debate about violence, you would find the rules Joe and myself loved, build and nurtured...different

best regards

David

Veni Vidi Vici

G'day Fenris - I didn't read far back enough to see where you were coming from. I can also see the negatives on baptism, although I would personally baptise my child, but with a less "religious" rite. I'm not keen on a dogmatic upbringing of any kind, even my own hodge-podge of beliefs. Great Homer quote btw - 5 points!

We should definitely start a topic on violence - I only read a bit of the earlier posts, but one of my key beliefs is that "Peace comes by the Sword". I don't practice it physically, but psychologically and in business it's the mind-set that gets results. I'd be keen for a debate (especially with the "tournament" rules), although I get the distinct impression I'd be in the minority (again!) .

All the best mate!

Not sure if this should be a new topic or not but I am wondering where baptism came from. I have read the Bible and I know that John just seemed to one day start doing it, but I am wondering if it has other origins. Does anyone know?

Hey,

I said I'd post again... But i've kinda lost interest in this now
hehe. Well for the moment anyway.

But yeah... if people are interested maybe someone should start a new topic on violence and find out peoples veiws.

Oliver

fenris: this is what i have seen in my life. unfortunately, most parents (who believe in baptizing babies) don't see baptism as a blessing; they see it as a ritual that must be gone through in order for the child to "be saved". and most priests do "see baptism as an attempt to 'get em while they are young' ". if love and caring are in their belief when they are baptizing their child, then the parents are merely mislead in their thinking as to what baptism is, but they are fully justified in trying to protect their child.

fallnangel77: john 'the baptist' is the first person (that i have ever heard of) to do baptism. if i recall correctly, God told him to do it in preparation for the comming of the 'Chosen One'.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

I hate to just drop a bomb of info, but then again I am not the most eloquent of writers and I feel that the following "talk" (the LDS term for speech or sermon I guess) sums up many of my feelings about baptism.  I don't think it's a secret that I am a member of the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...I even served as a full-time missionary in Italy for two years at the age of 20.  For those of you who have a few minutes and an open mind, I highly recommend reading this.  FInally I say this: I have experienced things that have taught me the futility and absurdity of "belief systems" but at the same time I know that truth exists- total, objective, eternal truth.  With this said I am a Christian and I know that what we believe is what becomes reality.  I am planning on posting Joseph Smith's famous "King Follet Discourse" sometime...it's not a document I share with many, but I know everyone here is mature and open minded enough to appreciate it...you may not agree with it, but it's definetly food for thought, and then some.  Anyway, here is this little peice about baptism:

Theodore M. Burton, "To Be Born Again," Ensign, Sept. 1985, 66
One day, as I was traveling on a plane to New England, I entered into a conversation with a young stewardess sitting in the seat next to me. Most members of our Church know how to steer a conversation toward the gospel, and, before long, we were talking about religion. She told me that she had recently been converted from her former manner of living and was now "saved." I congratulated her. Then she added that she was now a "born-again Christian."

I asked her how she was born again, and she told me that she had accepted Jesus Christ as her personal Savior and now believed in him. I told her how wonderful that was, but explained that acceptance and belief in Jesus Christ is normally called faith. She said, "But I have changed my former way of thinking and living. I am now on the path of eternal life." Again I congratulated her and told her that change is normally called repentance. "But," she said, "I have felt a marvelous spiritual change come over me which has purged all evil from my soul." I then asked her if this were not a gift from the Holy Ghost. "I suppose it is," she admitted, "but I mean I've had a sanctification experience, not through any work that I or any other person has done for me, but a work of grace whereby Jesus has pardoned my sins and promised me eternal life. I don't need any formal church organization to accomplish this. A person needs only that wonderful, spiritual experience, or feeling of grace." She added that she had truly been reborn spiritually. From her words, I knew she did not understand what is meant by being "born again" nor what is termed the second birth.

I have observed that few people who profess to be Christians—even many within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—really understand the most basic principles of the gospel. I want to examine one of these basic principles—what it actually means to be "born again."

Jesus was speaking of a basic concept when he related the parable of the sheepfold, as recorded in John 10. He called himself the true shepherd and said the sheep must enter in at the door, as does the good shepherd. He explained that those who try to climb into the sheepfold by some other way are thieves and robbers. The shepherd leads the way coming in or going out, and the sheep follow him, for they recognize his voice. They trust the shepherd and will follow him, but they will not follow a stranger. His hearers did not understand what Jesus meant by this statement, and so he explained, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9.)

He then went on to explain that he is the Good Shepherd and that he would willingly give his life for the sheep. On the other hand, a person who is just hired to do the job and is not a true shepherd will flee when opposition comes or when a more attractive opportunity beckons. He will then leave the sheep, allowing a wolf to come in and destroy them. He said, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:14-15.)

What did Jesus mean when he said, I am the door for the sheep?

When Jesus said he was the door to the sheepfold, he meant that there is only one door or way by which one can return to God, the Eternal Father. That door is Jesus himself. It is a very narrow door, designed and constructed to conform not only to his teachings but also to his works. If we enter in through that door, it must be in the Father's way, as Jesus demonstrated through his own life of instruction and service, and not by some other way prescribed by man.

Jesus had preached this doctrine before, as when he spoke with Nicodemus. Nicodemus was a prominent Jew and a member of the Sanhedrin, which was the supreme council of the Jews. When Nicodemus asked Jesus how he could personally enter into that fold as one of the chosen sheep, or true believers, "Jesus answered ... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot [even] see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3.)

Nicodemus could not understand how a person could be born again and asked how that was possible. How can a person again enter into his mother's womb and be born a second time? Jesus explained that this new birth was symbolic in nature and thus different from one's first birth. He explained that a person had to be born this second time both of water and of the Spirit. He was not referring to a spiritual experience only, but to an experience involving water also.

When Nicodemus still could not understand and questioned what the Savior meant, Jesus chided him and asked, "Art thou a master of Israel [that is, a teacher of the people], and knowest not these things?" (John 3:10.) Jesus was asking how Nicodemus could fail to recognize that he had been speaking of baptism. After all, the Israelites had been practicing baptism for centuries. Surely Nicodemus, as a master or teacher of Israel, should have recognized the teaching Jesus referred to and should have understood what Jesus meant. But Nicodemus didn't understand, as many people today—even some within the Church of Jesus Christ—do not fully understand what occurs when a person is baptized. This lack of understanding was also evidenced by the words of the stewardess in the seat next to me on the airplane.

Baptism richly symbolizes many things. For example, Paul likened baptism to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be [raised out of the water] also in the likeness of his resurrection:

"Knowing this, that our old man [that is, our former unrighteous life] is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin [that is, the devil]." (Rom. 6:3-6.)

In other words, there must be a "death" to the type of life most people live. The wicked self must die. In my own thinking, I define wickedness simply as disobedience to God. Personal disobedience, or wickedness, must cease and die. Furthermore, disobedience to the laws of God must not only die and be buried but must remain dead and buried. Such a change of life for the better is normally called repentance. All personal disobedience to God must end and be replaced by a willingness to keep his laws and his commandments.

Repentance precedes baptism, and baptism is the ordinance by which former sins are washed away. The washing in water symbolizes the purification of our soul, just as bathing in water cleanses our bodies from the grime and dirt of everyday living and makes us feel refreshed again. But baptism symbolizes something more. It is the beginning of a new life. Just as the resurrection purges the dross and imperfections of mortality and renews and perfects the body, so baptism cleanses the soul from sin and prepares a person to lead a better, more perfect life in the future. We can see how apt Paul's simile was in which he compared baptism with death and the resurrection.

But this is only part of the concept of baptism. When Jesus referred to being born again, he was comparing this experience with our original birth. During gestation, the fetus is completely surrounded by the amniotic fluid in the womb. The fetus is nourished by the blood of its mother, which provides the necessary food for the developing body. When the spirit enters the body, a living soul is created. Without that spirit, the creation process would not be complete.

Note now what the Lord told Adam and Eve to teach their children:

"Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul [the creation process], even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory." (Moses 6:59.)

That is why baptism is called a second birth. Note, too, how the Lord describes the results of baptism:

"For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified." (Moses 6:60.)

Without the nourishment provided by the atonement of Jesus Christ, baptism would remain just a dead form. Baptism alone cannot save us. Works alone cannot save us. Baptism must be accompanied by the granting of the Holy Ghost, which makes us spiritually alive just as God breathed into Adam the breath of life when he was created. Without the Holy Ghost, we would be spiritually stillborn and not have power to enter the presence of God the Eternal Father.

As to the importance of confirmation following baptism by water, Paul recorded that he found some of the Ephesians had been baptized in the same manner of immersion that John the Baptist had used. When Paul then asked if they had received the Holy Ghost, he was astonished to find that they had not even heard about it. He then explained: "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [not in the name of either John or Paul].

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." (Acts 19:4-6.)

In other words, their original baptism was invalid, apparently because it had been performed by someone without proper authority, as evidenced by their lack of knowledge of the complete ordinance. They were spiritually stillborn, and the whole ordinance had to be performed again properly, in full, by one having authority.

Even if all the ordinances were carried out properly and with authority, we still could not be saved. The grace of Jesus Christ is also necessary. Mankind cannot be saved solely by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Only those ordinances coupled with the atonement of Jesus Christ and conditioned upon obedience to gospel truths can bring us back into the presence of God the Eternal Father. Thus, through the atonement of Jesus Christ, together with the proper ordinances performed in the proper manner by proper authority and coupled with obedience to the laws and commandments of God, we can be saved from spiritual death and can be exalted to live in the presence of God the Eternal Father. That is why all three of these concepts—atonement, ordinances, and obedience—are mentioned in the third article of faith, which we accept as truth.

Let us return again to the symbolism of baptism as a second birth. John the Beloved knew and taught this doctrine, comparing baptism with a birth process that leads to exaltation in the presence of the whole Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Referring to Jesus Christ, he wrote:

"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 Jn. 5:6-8.)

Not only are the proper form and authority necessary, but one must have proper understanding of what is actually being accomplished in this ordinance of baptism. Note again the symbolism. Just as the three persons in the Godhead constitute a unity of purpose, so the three elements of baptism constitute a unity which can bring us back into the presence of those Three in heaven. The unity of this baptismal ordinance on earth mirrors in symbolism the unity in heaven.

Let us here pause a moment to explain the dual nature of Christ's atonement. Jesus Christ defined his work as follows:

"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39.)

When people of the world speak of being "saved," they refer to being saved from death to rise in the resurrection. This is the first part of the atonement of Jesus Christ as he described it. It is a pure gift of grace which Jesus Christ gives to every person who has lived on the earth, and is independent of the works we do. But to be exalted to eternal life and to be able to live the kind of life that God the Eternal Father lives requires not only the gift of grace that Jesus gives to all mankind through his atonement, but that gift coupled with our own obedience and conformity to all the requirements of righteous living prescribed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Exaltation, or the eternal life Jesus spoke about, comes from a partnership with Jesus Christ, which begins in the ordinance of baptism, by which we are reborn, and is developed through a lifetime of righteous living.

Now, if we are born again, we must be born into a family. Into whose family are we born? Why, into the family of Jesus Christ! The scriptures refer to the Savior as the Bridegroom and to the church as the bride. Through baptism, then, we become children in that royal family, with Jesus Christ as our Father. Through the baptismal ordinance we take upon ourselves a new family name—the name of Jesus Christ. Paul states that we are thereby adopted as the sons and daughters of Jesus Christ. Note these words of Paul given to the Romans:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons [and daughters] of God.

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him [that is, if we are obedient and serve as Jesus Christ has done], that we may be also glorified together." (Rom. 8:14-17.)

That the adoption process which Paul referred to is baptism is made clear in his message to the Galatians:

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female [in other words, it makes no difference at all what you have been in the past; through this ordinance you are now all equally children of God]: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise [to receive the same promise and blessings as were given to Abraham]." (Gal. 3:26-29.)

Baptism is the ordinance through which this adoption is effected and through which we take upon ourselves the new family name of Christ. It is, in other words, the means by which we become Christians.

By the ordinance of baptism and confirmation, a person is both physically and spiritually adopted as a child of Jesus Christ. You will remember that God the Father had but one physical son on this earth. That Only Begotten Son is Jesus Christ. The only way a person can be exalted into the presence of God the Eternal Father and clothed with a perfected, resurrected body of flesh and bone is through Jesus Christ, the only physical Son of God the Eternal Father. That is why the scriptures in so many places state that there is only one name given by which mankind can be saved, or, better stated, exalted, in the presence of God the Father. That name is the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus correctly said, therefore, that he is the door to the fold.

King Benjamin, that great Book of Mormon leader, explained this clearly in the following words:

"And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

"And under this head ye are made free, and there is ... no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

"And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ." (Mosiah 5:7-9.)

When we are baptized, we actually make a new covenant with God the Eternal Father to take upon us the name of his Only Begotten Son. Jesus Christ thus becomes by adoption our covenant Father. Thus, though he was, and is, our Elder Brother, he is also now our covenant Father, and we have become his covenant sons and daughters. We desire to be respectful and show our gratitude to him for the opportunity we have to become members of his royal family.

It was for this reason that Peter made his statement that we quote so often from his first letter:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

"Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (1 Pet. 2:9-10; italics added.)

Through baptism we have become adopted members of the royal family of Jesus Christ, and that is the basic reason we now call each other "brother" or "sister." We have indeed become members of the Church, or family, of Jesus Christ.

If we can keep that concept clearly in mind, that we are covenant children of Jesus Christ, as well as children of our Heavenly Father, it will change our lives. If we live righteously enough, we can go into the temple and be sealed into the patriarchal lineage of the Melchizedek Priesthood. We then become the covenant children of Jesus Christ even more completely. Further, as we perform vicarious work for the dead in the temples, we are given authority, as proxies, to assist in the Savior's redemptive work of sealing together all men, women, and children in family order who are worthy of such blessings. It is in this manner that the covenant family of Jesus Christ is put into proper patriarchal order of lineage for the eternity of family life to come.

If we truly understand the full stature of the name by which we then are called, we will live different lives. No longer will we do less than our best in our work or at school. No longer will we be dishonest in paying our bills or in the treatment of our family members, nor will we take unfair advantage of anyone in any way. Our word will be as binding on us as our bond. No longer will we be unkind to our associates or be unvirtuous or immoral or selfish in any way, either secretly or openly. We will do nothing to bring dishonor or shame to that holy name we carry as children of Jesus Christ. We will respect and honor our covenant Father, Jesus Christ, and be righteously jealous and protective of the holy name we bear. We will judge everything we do on the basis of how it might reflect on Him whose name we carry, not only on our lips but in our very hearts.

Peter stated clearly the importance of that name as he testified of Jesus to the Jews:

"This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:11-12.)

Paul told how important this name becomes to us as he taught the Ephesians:

"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

"Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Eph. 3:14-15.)

Nephi, that great Book of Mormon prophet, wrote of this concept:

"Behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved." (2 Ne. 25:20.)

This truth was also revealed in our own time to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the following words:

"Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;

"Wherefore, all men must take upon them the name which is given of the Father, for in that name shall they be called at the last day;

"Wherefore, if they know not the name by which they are called, they cannot have place in the kingdom of my Father." (D&C 18:23-25.)

To repeat Jesus' words:

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9.)

Thus, through baptism we can enter through that narrow gate into the kingdom, or family, of Jesus Christ as heirs—joint heirs with Jesus Christ, our covenant Father—to all the blessings of God, our Eternal Father.

This is one of the reasons we pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of his Son. As we make covenants with the Son, he serves as our Mediator, our Advocate, and leads us, if we will, back into the presence of God the Father. Thus, through righteous living we can receive all those blessings which God has reserved for those who are prepared to receive them. These blessings come to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ and through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, by which we take upon us the name of Jesus Christ, in Hebrew Yehoschuah Maschiach, which interpreted means, the Anointed Savior or Redeemer. Through this ordinance we can walk, at least in part, in the very footsteps of our Lord and Savior.

I only wish I had been able to teach these principles to that stewardess before our plane landed and we were separated. Perhaps, though, I sowed a seed which will someday sprout and grow when a missionary later on contacts her and has an opportunity to explain the true meaning of being a "born-again Christian."

Gospel topics: ordinances, spirituality


© 2002 Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved.


fides quaerens intellectum

Wow....speechless.

fallnangel - baptism was a Jewish practice that predated Christianity, although John the Baptist was the most famous NT baptiser. The Jews used to baptise in a ceremonial bathtub, called a mikvah. People dunked themselves for ritual cleansing (eg, after a woman's period, or men laying with unclean women) or for new converts to Judaism, in addition to being circumsized. The rule for a mikvah was that the water should be running, not stagnant, including streams, rivers, etc (sounds similar to RB's running water theory in some respects...) Traditionally, the first instance of baptism was commanded by God before Moses covenant on Mount Sinai as a purification ritual.

Hi everyone. Baptism is something that a person can reject later in life. It's like when someone throws a ball. you can either catch it, or hit it away. Secondly, ephisians 2:8-9 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, not by works, Threw faith, and this, not from yourselvs, it is the gift of God-not by works so that no one may bboast.
Back to baptism, Mathew 28:19-20 says, "Therefore, go and make decyples of all nations baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Finally, bakck to works, good works are done out of thanks for christ's sacrifice. I hope this provokes some discussion.

Michael

"D'oh!" (Homer) wrong again. oh well.  :)

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

There are a few religious related threads active here at the moment and Ive decided to talk about a topic that concerns me.

Is Baptising young children wrong? And what are your opinions?

My opinion: Yes, a baptism is a ritual of initiation that does seem to have a real effect. And it does not seem possible to reverse this effect. So what right do parents have to preform a ritual on a child that does not even understand the concept of religion or Christianity. If I were baptised I wound be very upset about it at this stage in my life. I think all individuals should have the right to choose their beliefs and religion at an age when they can reason for themselves. Why should a parents fears be forced onto a child?

Don't mean to rock any boats, I would like to hear how other people see this.


Veni Vidi Vici