Is Sai Baba GOD?

[noitarbiv]

quote:Originally posted by What Tha Phak



I've read reports which people have witnessed him materialize matter out of thin air with a simple command or gesture, such as the pendant that he wears around his neck.  Some people explain how he does these "miracles," but I must see it with my own eyes.

Ive seen him do materializations, they are nothing more than a mediocre magician can accomplish. He uses slights of hand in his materializations.

[/quote]I also read reports of how a lot of Christians die while handling snakes... This is done because in Mark's Gospel, Chapter 16, verse 17: "They shall take up serpents."  Now Dewey Chafin quotes from American People Magizine, "See, I handle serpents because it's i nthe Bible, like a commandment. And I drink strychnine because the Bible says it won't hurt me. Now, either every word in that Bible is right or it's wrong."  [/quote]

The bible also says we should burn bulls as a sacrifice because the odor is pleasing to the lord. Lev.1:9

According to Exodus we can sell our daughters to slavery. Exodus 21:7

We can also buy slaves as long as they are purchased from a neighboring nation. Lev. 25:44

A lot of filtering needs to be done when reading the bible.

[astralspinner]

"Now, either every word in that Bible is right or it's wrong."  

Try http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm to answer that one..

"A lot of filtering needs to be done when reading the bible"

My personal favourite:
http://www.geocities.com/richard_holmes/laughs/dr-laura.htm

Incidentally, anybody here heard of the Bible code..?

[Frozen Heroics]

Reporter: Sai Baba! Please, just a few questions.
Sai Baba: *nods*
Reporter: Are YOU God?
Sai Baba (blinks): ......
Crowds of People (anxious silence): .......
Reporter (curiously risen brow): .....?
Sai Baba (going out on a limb): .....Yes.
Crowds of People: WHAT THE MOTHER#%&!* DO YOU #%&!* THINK YOU #%&!* #%&!* #%&!* !!!!!
Sai Baba (under his breath): Holy #%&!* ....
Reporter: *speechless*
Sai Baba: *ahem* You did not allow me to finish. I AM God, and so are YOU, along with everyone else here.
Reporter: Oh... hunh....
Crowds of People (murmurs and nods to each other): Yeah. That could make sense. I see where he's coming from.
Sai Baba (sighs and says under his breath): Whew... Close one...

Scapegoats are always fun. How do you think Hitler unified Germany?


*I decided to edit this post because I felt it was a little winding and not exactly on point to what I was trying to say. Heh, gimme a break. I was coming down off a caffeine rush..

Most religions are based around historic events and people in order to get it's point across. Religions try to teach beliefs and morals, which can be very helpful if applied correctly into your life, despite whether there really is a higher power or not.

What I've found reguarding the inconsistencies and straight up contradictions in the Bible is that they seem to be found in certain "chapters" by certain "writers." Human error or disagreements regarding the Christian beliefs? Hmm...

[Silver Incubus]

If you go to a bible online site and search for the word Abomination, it mostly only appears in leviticus. I think that guy was crazy. And if you took that whole book out of the bible, christians would be more likely to tolerated the gay and lesbian community because I was searching for other parts of the bible with any reference to homosexuality, and I didn't find any other then the leviticas one.

By what he says, we can't even eat seafood, because eating shellfish is an abomination. []

[ralphm]

The subject of Sai Baba was discussed here, check the past discussions for interesting reading. As for the bible, that book has been translated so many times that no one knows what was in the original.

[kakkarot]

silver incubus, romans 1:27.

whether we are a part of God or not, i don't feel like it. i've felt God, and he is an individual being with a lot more abilities than we, but he is, none the less, seperate from us.

the bible is not 100% unerring. it is not the word of God either. John 1:1. notice that the "books" of the bible didn't come around 'till 30 - 80 years after jesus' died; long time after "In the beginning". the bible is a collection of letters and such written by christians (the apostles to be specific) either to certain groups or just in general. it is by no means perfect, nor it is the scripture. the old testament is the scripture that is referred to in the bible, not the new testament.

so when a christian says to you, "but the bible is holy scripture, so it IS right!" say back, "no it isn't holy scripture. baka." oh wait... calling them a baka places you in danger of the fires of hell, doesn't it? [] (baka is japanese and translates to the idea of "fool" or "stupid person").

(mumbles to self) i like being right. [8D]

~kakkarot

[jason]

so much for sai baba...oh well.I've wondered about that dude...Isn't there anyone around that claims to be spiritually advanced,who doesn't seem more like like a fraud and a liar w/no real proof? It's very depressing.[]why are so many religions tainted w/negativity,when they claim to be ways to enlightenment? killing and burning animals;slavery;etc...[!]

[rodentmouse]

i   think   what  makes a religion  more  "right"  than  another  is  the kind  of  person  its  follower is.

i  once  met a  few  hare-krishnas   in  the   street,   the  seemed  to  radiate   such a loving, non-judging, peaceful  aura.

it   was  clearly  obvious   that   a  world  full of people like  this would  be   at  peace.

but   i  dont  believe  they   need  so  much  of  the irrelevant  rules,   e.g.  orange   robes  and      certain  hair-cuts.

i  know   this is  meant  to   symbolise  unity  but  they  can  do  that  in meditation.

all  religious   texts  need  to  be   scrapped and re-written,  pointing  out  the  fundamental,  underlying   truths  which   create  people  like  the  hare-krishna   folks  i  met.   That  is  all i beleive  they  were  intended  for....   I  approve  of  the  hare-krishnas,    but   i  dont  beleive   individual  expression  and  choice needs  to be  sacrificed    to  become  that  kind of person.

as long   as   we  understand   that  we  are  all one,  to love  each other,  work  together  and   that  malice,   whatever  the  case  effects  the  whole-  then  its ok.

^^^   THIS  is  what  the  creator  wants  THAT  IS ALL  i  think,   i  dont   really  think  its  bothered  weather or not  someone  misses  church  on a  sunday,   or  if  a   muslim man  decides not  to  fast.

i  think  people  like  that   do  those  things  to  appease  the  god  they  think  is  watching  there every move,   i  find  that ludicrous,   they  do  it  out of  fear  instead of  the  peace  they  find when  doing   those  things.

^^^   that  is a  very  close minded  comment,   but  from  my  experiences  with  xians,   thats  the  case.

[Ex Baba]

Hi,
Ofcourse Baba is no God, he is a sexual abuser of males, just look at the site www.exbaba.com, then you'll see why...

[Ex Baba]

Hmmm...

Link didn't work:

http://www.exbaba.com

[Adrian]

Greetings Ex Baba!

While we appreciate your views to which you are entitled, and to which many of us might agree, it would be preferable if you would refrain from talking of anyone in such blatent terms, even if you happened to know it for a fact.

It is better to do what you went on to do and provide a link in order that people can make up their own minds on Sai Baba.

It has never interested me to investigate Sai Baba, prefering to remain with the positive aspects of things, but it can be said that Sai Baba is the object of very considerable controversy on all sides!

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Leyla]

I was very shocked to read that we are never allowed to speak of someone being a child molester- even if we know it to be a fact.
What should we put first: the safety of young boys or somebody's reputation?
You are pushing a very old idea- that victims should remain in silence.
And it is wrong.
And I don't care if I get kicked off this board for saying so.
Pedophiles are almost impossible to convict, and when they are they don't stay locked up for very long.
You are trying to censure our right to warn one another, and to protect our kids.
My two god-daughters were molested, and there parents wish to god somebody had warned them.
Because as it turns out, people knew.
They knew, and they said nothing, because they thought it unfair to the mans reputation.
They didn't consider for a moment how unfair it was to two little girls who are now scarred for life.
And to their father, who's now blames himself for bringing the man into their home.
Oh yeah, the guy got a slap on the wrist and is back on the street.
He could be your neighbor.
Sorry I can't warn you about him.

[MJ-12]

vvcccxx

[Leviiathan]

XD That site about Dr. Laura was absolutely hillarious. Perfect material! No, it's beyond perfect XD

And since I'm bisexual, it made it all the more funny to read.

Another odd quip:

Genesis 14:16, God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light ont he earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness

If I am correct, all of this happened... 3 days after the earth was created? Now that. . . makes a lot of sense to me.

[silva]

Victims have rights but the accused also have rights.
1.) no respectable message board would let accusations of molestations that aren't proven be put on their board.  

2.) the internet is a great place to spread such things since you're anonymous and have little risk.

I dont know of sai baba or whatever.. i admit to that.  But i would definitely say something as Adrian did if a person who created a name just to put that up suddenly brought up he molested kids and just provided a website as "proof".  

Any high profile person could be accused of rape. If you dont like someone go to a message board and tell people "he molested boys.. this website proves it?" i could see actual court documents but a website.
Why did that person chose a name just to post that.. I really think it would be different if someone here with 1000 posts wrote that just because even though the issue would be the same i think more credibility to be there.

Lets not confuse telling the victim they have no right to talk about what happened. With anonymous postings with proof via a website a person molested little boys.  Most wont chose to see the website but some will remember "sai baba raped little boys" or however he put it.

Its dangerous to confuse libel and slander with rights of victims.  Especially with only a website to prove there was a victim at all..

[silva]

I read this website and i dont know why this person hates sai baba so much but I give absolutely no credibility to the website.

On one murder thing they give "logic" like since the police didnt do this and that in the murder.. And since more blood wasn't found.. (things like this)

that conclusively proves that since "The police failed in their duty to verify the finger prints on the alarm switch, the knives, the bottle containing potassium cyanide, ether, the bombs, the poles etc., which if they had verified would have been enough proof to arrest the real murderers." this logically concludes that

"The murderers are neither the aides nor the alleged 6 assailants but the Sai Baba coterie who on the order of the Sai Baba murdered them."

Those are direct quotes and im going to be blunt. You need help your infatuation with this man isn't healthy.  I find shoddy "a + b=murder" laughable.. it reminds me a lot of the reasons people know tupac is a live and covered up his murder.  Things like they never caught the person who shot him.. and there were no helicopters..

Illogical.. and really wrong.  

I really dont trust anything from someone with such an obvious agenda to destroy someone.

[Leyla]

Isn't cult brainwashing amazing?
There are young boys lined up around the corner saying they were raped by  Sai Baba, and dead bodies turning up, yet people dismiss it all with a casual wave of their hand.
I suppose the whole "catholic priest" thing was cooked up by the Baptists, and Michael Jackson is just a sweet guy who loves kids.

Denial 'aint just a river in Egypt honey.

Okay, I just took Adrian's advice and researched the topic myself.
I went to several sites, including one that had graphic *written signed statements* from victims all around the world.
They were numerous, detailed, and heartbreaking. You could feel their pain and disillusionment. One of the young men has since committed suicide.

I am saddened that a search for spirituality could go so horribly wrong.


http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/testimonies.htm


I understand westeners were all infatuated with this Sai Baba, but sometimes you just have to face reality and let go.
Like that televangelist Benny Hin, who raised millions to start a free hospital for the poor. Then claimed he "got a message from God" that it wasn't the "right time" so he kept all the money and postponed the hospital project indefinatly.

Yet thousands still flock to him, and continue to donate their money.

Such deep attachments to cult leaders defies all logic. Outright theft, rape and murder are overlooked. Believe in the divine within yourself and you won't need these "Jim Jones" and "David Koresh" charecters.

Honestly, when has one of them ever turned out NOT to be a corrupt freak of some sort?

[Ex Baba]

Hi Silva,

Stop making presumptions of what the editors of http://www.exbaba.com might or should be, let the following story speek for itself, we have had a very close contact with Hans de Kraker (jagath@bigfoot.com) by mail, by telephone and in personal, feel free to mail him about the AUTHENTICITY of HIS STORY:

---

Personal experiences from Hans de Kraker



From: Australia

Source: Hans de Kraker

Subject : PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

Date: Friday, 19 May 2000

From: Hans de Kraker

Re: Sai Baba



Dear David, Faye and Glenn,

Long time no hear! Finally I have taken the time to put some of my experiences with The Great Deceiver on paper. I really appreciate what you are doing. I think it is absolutely vital what you are doing because a lot of harm is being done and this needs to stop. Not doing what you are doing defeats the purpose of all those years of travel to India. We all went there to find the truth after all.

As I had told you I travelled to India extensively for a period of 4 years. During this period (1992 - 94) I had many (35) private audiences with Sai Baba.

I got to know him in 1988 through a friend, in Italy who had passed on a book. After about four years I made my first trip to India with my girlfriend, mother and father. The years that followed were making for some very intense years in my life. Sai Baba fairly much from the first private audience had suggested to me and my girlfriend that we were to split up from eachother for our own good. He did this in a very public and embarrassing way, purposely humiliating my girlfriend and myself. We had built a lot of "faith and mystery" around him and had by now accepted him has a God incarnate on earth, the epitome of spirituality, the epitome of human divine spiritual expression.

There were many books written by people from all parts of the world that spoke about miracle after miracle. People had cured from fatal diseases by virtue of touching jewellery "materialised by Swami". He "appeared" in front of people in all different parts of the world. Millions of people travelled to India to see "God on Earth". Millions of People came and cried upon his sight, some were cured of their illnesses, some freed of their anxieties of life and some died in peace. Some left laden with trinkets or real golden rings, watches, pendants, all materialised by "Swami".

Sai Baba has been enjoying a lot of popularity in the West. He has a great ability to play with and communicate to large crowds of people. It is this particular power that allows him to manipulate people.

It takes a Great Man not to abuse this power...

During these four years of travels to India, Sai Baba would perform a certain ritual each time he would call me in for a private audience or interview. He would ask me to take down my pants. He would than "oint" my umbilical area; testicles and penis with oil which he "materialised". After this ritual he would ask me to pull up my pants and tidy them up. I had heard of this ritual and it seemed to be "common knowledge" that this was done to balance the sexual energy or Kundalini. I had never thought anything of it. When I was in Elementary School in Holland, the school doctor used to check and touch your testicles to see if you were growing properly. I likened this ritual to a visit to the doctor. It was just for a different purpose. Very unassumingly I continued to receive this treatment, convinced it was going to do me some good!

Each and every trip he would "materialise" trinkets, jewellery, "vibhuti" and oil. I noticed that he was particularly generous with the people that donated a lot of money or equipment for the various kitchens in the Ashram. I did also notice that he would call in a lot of young guys out of the crowd and never girls.

In one particular interview, I saw him take a ring from under the handkerchief that was on the armrest of his chair. I thought not much of it. I never really attached much value to the materialisations and knew that the receiver was going to be an ecstatically happy person... Shortly after, one of my friends in the group said to me: " Gosh, what a test! Swami wanted to show me that he did not materialise the ring, but that he took it from under his handkerchief! Isn't he funny! He is really testing us!" I did not give it any focus; I never had focused much on these materialisations and the thought of accepting that he was not actually materialising these objects was probably very unattractive tough for my mind. I had also received a ring, two bracelets and a necklace so I guess I had satisfied that desire!

Through the years I got more and more attention on a personal level from Sai Baba. This went accompanied with receiving VIP seating for doing work in the kitchen. As the crowds grew over the years it became increasingly difficult to see "Swami" up close. There was a preferred seating area for people who worked in the kitchen since they were not able to "do the lines". They often worked until 30 minutes before Darshan. Arriving that late they would always find themselves sitting in the back of the large crowd, so by getting this "reserved seat" they were able to every now and then have a close encounter with "the Master".These groups were organised in lines of two or three and rotate so that everybody got a fair chance.

Although initially I was very much against this way of operating, I succumbed to my desire to get a close encounter with the "Master" and accepted a preferred seat the third time it was offered to me. After two years I had become a "steady member" of a group that would travel to India three times a year, to do volunteer work in the Ashram. The group would cook food for upto 6000 people around the festivals and various multi-religious celebrations (Christmas, Shivaraatri etc) The group would bring thousands of kilo's of food at its own expense as well as a lot of industrial kitchen machinery etc. There were many other groups that brought help in some form or shape and it was beautiful to be part of this enormous "collective effort".

Our group had a place of its own. We did not have to wait in line and had always-front row seating. On some occasions (on Festivals and Celebrations) we were even allowed to sit on the veranda. We would always get to see "Swami" from up-close and feel very fortunate.

The ego was certainly satisfied with this powerful position! So many people wanted to be close to him. Millions of people travelled to get a glimpse of him and here we were right up front! It is incredible how the mind comes up with justifications when it suits our personal purpose.

During one of the last visits, there was a young guy who had travelled with us from Italy. He had not been to India before. He accompanied his girlfriend and her father, who was part of the group. Shortly after we arrived in the Ashram we got our usual immediate welcome interview in which Sai Baba was briefed on what we had brought from home as well as our personal, business and daily life problems

Sai Baba called in this particular young man again, a few days later by him self. He was given a watch! "Swami" had materialised a watch for him! He came to me fairly shortly after and was quite shocked (like most people were, all for their own different reasons). He asked me to explain him something;"Swami hugged me, and then kissed me, on the lips and tried engage me by probing my mouth with his tongue". When I heard I was very shocked. This young boy (18/19) was quite confused and asked me what I thought of it. He had thought of Kundalini and that it was to "balance his energy". I did not know. I told him that that could be the case but that I did not know.

We both talked about it for some more time. I told him about the ritual that I had been going through over the past years and this was maybe something in that line...

On one of our trips to India I remember bringing so much, we thousands of kilos of overweight. Among the things the group brought were watches. These hundreds of watches were destined to go to the students. Not long after arriving we brought some of the things we had brought to the front door of the Poornachandra, in front of Sai Baba's house. I very kind gentleman would be from who the offerings came and that Sai Baba was expecting them (especially after the attempt on his life there was a very strict security control).

Only a few weeks later, I encounter a student, who proudly tells me that his watch was materialised by Sai Baba! He was as happy as I was astounded. And again I decided to stuff the thoughts I had away, saying to myself that it was great that this boy was so happy and that the philosophy was what was important and not where this watch came from. I decided that that which was instilled in this boy through this gift was going to help him in life to be the person that he aspired to be. In that same period a friend approached an another person of our group from Europe who had received that same watch. He had asked my friend why he got that watch...

During another trip a friend came along who was ill with cancer. She wanted to give an ambulance to the hospital. She was included in the group by the leader of our group. It was suggested that buying an ambulance was to complicated. So she donated a large sum of money. The next day she got an interview on which she received a "materialised ring".

In my last trip to India (November of 96), I arrived early from Australia and my friends from Europe had not arrived yet. The usual kitchen managers were no longer running the kitchen. Upon arrival, Sai Baba asked me to reopen the Western Canteen and start making food for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. I collected a group of people, (was ordered/recommended by ashram management not to allow any Sri Lankans in the kitchen! All people I appointed were screened by the management) and started working. Several days later, my friends from Europe joined me.

We had several interviews together. It was around the 10th of December that they left, except for one of my close friends. We spent some beautiful moments together. It was almost as if we were like the apostles around Jesus. We were moved even further ahead now and we were seated in the ashram management area, very close to the front. Sai Baba came to us every and each Darshan and would have a chat with us. These were very special moments. We felt very privileged.

The day of my friend's departure, we were called in for an interview together. Sai Baba materialised another bracelet for my friend and for me. In this same trip he had "materialised". (One of my friends was "tested' and saw him bring the object from the neighbouring room) a jar of amrith, "divine nectar" with a spoon which he used to give us all a spoon after which he said; "From now on no more bad karma and no more bad luck in your life" "You are very special people, this is a privilege! There are so many people out there and you are the lucky ones!" When I asked him why he said that all our hearts were pure and that there was not self interest involved in the work we did (we had many power struggle and quarrels over positions in the group, just like any other group of humans may have).

My friend had now left. I was by myself and was called in a few days after he had left. I went into the interview room and was given a private audience in a separate room. When in this separate room, he asked me how things were in Australia. He told me that he would give me every thing, money, a house, a wife EVERYTHING!

He then signed me to come closer and hug him.

He had earlier that trip asked me to kiss him on the cheek, while I was helping him getting something from a room adjacent to the interview room. This was a little room where he kept his gowns. It was his custom to give a gown to people for healing purposes (it was common believe that "hugging" a gown could cure a disease), or when they had opened one of his centres. He asked me to help him get something from that room. While leaning over to get something from a lower shelf in the closet, when rising he pointed at his cheek, indicating that he wanted me to kiss him. I did so, very surprised and kind of suspicious. I come from a country though where man and women irrespective of sex, kiss each other on the cheek three times. So after my first suspicion, relativised everything back to normal (I am still amazed today, how far ones mind can go!)

So back to that moment where he asked me to come closer. He then hugs me ( I am on my knees and he is seated on his chair-there are no people present). He now turns his face and puts his lips on mine; my head his spinning and my mind is running at 500 kilometres per hour. I don't know what to do! My mouth tightens up, and I feel extremely uncomfortable and confused with this "perceived incarnation of GOD on earth trying to kiss me on and in my mouth!! Sai Baba slaps me on my cheek and says "Loosen up!!! With other people not OK with Sai Baba OK " I am even more uncomfortable now and feel disgusted at the same time.

Sai Baba realised his and my predicament and decides not to continue. He now tells me again that he will give me everything and stands up and tells me to do padnamnamaskaar. As I go on my knees, and touch his feet with my forehead, he pulls up my arms and indicates he wants his calf muscles massaged. Although very uncomfortable with everything that had happened I still continued to listen to him. Many people knew how he liked having his calve muscles massaged and I had seen respectable men and women of all walks of life do the same thing....he now takes my head and pushes it quite firmly into his groin...he then pulls up my arms and asks me to go higher and higher and higher...NOW I AM HOLDING HIS BUTTOCKS AND WONDER WHAT THE HELL MY DIVINE MASTER IS ASKING ME TO DO!!! Fuse!!! Crash! I let go my arms and now I am even more shell shocked...he pulls up his dress, presents me his half-erect penis and invites me to take up my "Good Luck Chance":

"This is your Good Luck Chance"

I am now on my knees facing his erect penis, being asked to perform oral sex. He stands there, and I think:

AM I SUPPOSED TO DO THIS?

COULD I DO THIS?

-.....-

I then instinctively stretch out my right arm and put on the part of his chest which hides his heart and say:

"I don't want this Swami, I want your heart"

He now drops his dress and tells me: "Yes yes yes of course you have my heart"

He now asks me to take my pants down, "discovers" my penis is not erect and tells me that that is how it is supposed to be!

"Swami is inside there see, Swami is inside there."

Hell NO! That is Mine and Mine! And you are certainly not in there!

I thought

He asks me to do Padnamnamaskaar again

and again

he pulls up his dress

"This is your second Good Luck Chance" he said.

I refuse and get up without saying anything. I am now angry, confused and dazed. I feel burning! God just took a backdoor! A very clever manipulator and professional deceiver had just trashed the fundamentals of the past eight years of my life. I had abstained from any sexual activity because he had suggested it was good for my spiritual Evolution. He had harassed and embarrassed my girlfriend and myself because of our difference in age, while he was hitting on someone 42 years his junior...He had told us to break up our relationship and for what reason?! So he could have a go?!?!

In reality I pulled the carpet myself from under a mental castle which I had built myself. I am responsible for that, he is for abusing the good faith of people, their trust, to the point of putting their life on the line and actually loosing it

Devastation

Devastation

He asked me to keep this quiet, to not say anything to anyone

I walked out of the interview room and run to my room.

I lock myself in.

I black out until 6am the next morning (from 5 PM the day before)

The next morning people that apparently came to my room and knocked approached me on the door.

Someone had called Europe even and told the leader of the group. I got a call from her the morning after. She expressed concern and told me people had seen me walking out of the interview room all pale...then they tried the apartment but I had locked myself in. She asked me what had happened. "Did he try to have sex with you" I told her that it was something between him and me. I did not want to talk about it.

The first few days after I sit in darshan at a distance, not wanting to be close. I look at the masses and masses of people and wonder how he manages to handle all these people."Who are you!" I ask myself...a few weeks pass.... I get another interview with a group of Germans / Russians. My attention is elsewhere and Sai Baba monitors every move of my eyes. I see his ring trick and how he tosses the old ring between the pillow and the armrest of his seat. I look at this Older Russian lady who is crying while she sits in front of him. He is playing the crowd, and all of a sudden the GODhead has become a bad trickster. In the mean time the group has arrived from Europe and we are all working hard in the kitchen. I had thrown myself in the work to forget something, which I was trying to refuse to accept: reality.

There was a big power shake up in the kitchen and I had no interest to participate in the whole situation any longer. I had a chat with the leader of the group because I had not been going to darshan anymore. My last day in the ashram I talked to the leader of the group. Again she insists that I tell her what happened." So did he try to have sex with you?" was the question. Tired of it all I told her what had happened. This was the evening of the fourth or fifth of January. Immediately after she has an interview with Sai Baba, by herself this time, without the rest of the group. After she comes out of the interview room, several hours later, I am summoned to an elderly gentleman from Security, whom I knew well, with whom I had build a friendship.   Several years before, when I accompanied a couple from Europe, who did not speak any English, he had spent time with this couple, their three-year-old son, who had cancer and me.  This gentleman looked very awkward and asked me if he could take my photo. I said of course not knowing what was happening, understanding something had gone wrong. He was accompanied by 2 seva dal's. One them took a picture from the front and then asked me to turn to the side. When I asked my friend what was happening he nodded uncomfortable and said I don't know.

They then escorted me to the secretary of the Ashram who told me I was ordered to leave as soon as possible. I had behaved improperly and had to leave. When I asked what the reason was he commanded that I was not allowed to ask anything, and that I was only allowed to leave. "You are to leave the Ashram. You are strongly advised not to hang around the village, to go as soon as possible to Bangalore and catch the first flight out...

I left.

All my friends of the group were absolutely amazed and destroyed when they heard that I had been expelled. Except for one person...the same person who spoke to Sai Baba a few hours before.

So they got rid of a possible "loose cannon"

But what about the miracles?

But what about the prophecies that describe a man like him?

But what about the dreams I had with him? (It is common believe that when one dreams of Sai Baba, it is actually him willing it. You cannot dream of him if he does not will it. When you dream of him, it is actually him coming to you, and hence , a special grace.)

But what about the "materialisations"?

Self Interest has no boundaries. The mind finds all reasons to justify means to reach, or maintain a purpose.

But what about the three year old boy?

Now what of that three-year-old boy that Sai Baba said he would cure? What about the fact that he had said to the parents (I was their personal translator) that they should not bring their child to the hospital anymore? They should not worry anymore about the therapy, "I will take care of him and cure him".

But what about the fact that the three year old boy died 6 months later from the disease?

What about the fact that he had promised two friends (father and son) in our group a lingam to cure the disease of the mother. And he promised a second time in a second trip they made. Now the son was sick and had constant fever. How about the fact that Sai Baba still had not given them this lingam, the mother was still sick and now he promised that he would cure the son and not to take the medicine? How about the fact that they went back again some 6 months later and said to Sai Baba that he could not work without taking the pills because he could not work with 39 degrees fever. And what about the fact that Sai Baba insisted that "it is only Body Heat, don't worry, I will take care of you". "Don't take the medicine", he repeated.

But what about the fact that he died several months later?

What about the fact that when you give money you get a nice seat on the veranda, or that you can buy Sai Baba's attention by making big donations (you have to make sure though you pass all your personal details through to the right people)

But what about the fact that you are likely to get attention if you are male and good looking?

But What about the fact that he talks about abstaining from sex but has a go whenever he can?

And what about the fact that he breaks up a relationship to then hit on the male?

And what about the fact that he tells the a big group of people that the perfect age difference between two people is 3 to 4 years: quote;"Unlike the guy in kitchen with the long hair who is going out with a seventy year old women and all he does it for is the money."  But then for him, 72 years of age it is OK to ask sexual favours from a guy who is 44 years younger?

And what about this COMPULSIVE DECEPTION?

I took me 3 years.

And I don't expect any genuine devotee of Sai Baba to accept the above facts just like that. As a matter of fact many will come up with a good reason why "He is an avatar anyway. His ways are not to be scrutinised, who am I to understand."

Been there.

Nothing new.

But the facts, the truth, that for which we all travelled to India is now calling for us. The truth is crying for help.

With the other crushing and devastating findings (paedophilia etc) in this report from other unassuming devotees, I believe one owes it to ones own spirit, to accept and grow and be ready to support all those people that we considered brothers and sisters, because many of them, and especially the older ones, who have been devotees for decades, will need all the support they can get.

Good Luck

Hans de Kraker

---

[silva]

*laughing* "isn't cult brainwashing"? you're onto me.. I mentioned not believing "reports" someone raped or killed based on biased websites because im actaully a devout follower of someone i've never heard of, read about, or care about.

Seems you think just because there are rapists out there.. everyone who is accused should be slandered all over the web.

Im not saying the catholic priests didnt rape.. but we cant be so blinded by  personal experiences we vote to fry any person who was accused even before the court case.  
There are guilty people and there are also falsely accuesd people.. they both have rights.  

You obviously are confused and think im saying he didnt do any of this.  I am saying this isn't the p lace.. no message board is the place to accuse someone of rape.  Are these your real names?  the guy that accused him is his real name exbaba? see why there's little credibility online just to accuse and leave? its way too easy to sit around saying stuff when you're just a moniker.

If you're really that upset about it start some groups off the computer.  Demand an investigation. Btw what are these sites that detail all these boys?  I honestly would like addresses so i can START to form an opinion.  But obviously because some guy comes on with the handle ex baba and makes accusations thats enough proof for you.

I myself like to judge my opinions based on fact and to make absolutely sure the person doesn't have an agenda or hatred toward the person and therefore is making claims that aren't true.

[Adrian]

Greetings Leyla!

quote:Originally posted by Leyla

I was very shocked to read that we are never allowed to speak of someone being a child molester-

If you are referring to my posting, I did not say that this subject cannot be discussed. The fact is - neither you or anyone else knows beyond any reasonable doubt whether the allegations against Sai Baba are justified or not. Famous and high profile people who try to help others are very often the target of those who seek to bring them down for their own dark reasons - you just don't know. If the accusations are justified, then one day he will be caught and pay the penalty.

My concern is people hurling blatent unsubstantiated allegations (against anyone), and which will definitely not be allowed in these forums.

I do not have any opinion or view on Sai Baba one way or the other - indeed I know next to nothing about him, but I must remind you that there are many people in these forums who most certainly do hold Sai Baba in high regard, and might take exception to such accusations whether they are true or not.

The way to proceed in situations like this is to draw peoples attention to the concerns, provide some evidence, and let them make up their own minds, and discuss it objectively not emotionally.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[silva]

exbaba to get a real feel of your wesite could you also post everything else you've accused him of?

Again I am not saying he did/didnt.. i do not know of the guy and aparently hes a really weird or shady guy.

But your website isn't a victims advocacy page that has a real time address...or something trying to help the victims.  Its a page that tries to show he's a rapist murderer.. and i didnt go through enough to see what else you've acused him of.  See the difference.. I feel like im talking to a brick wall.  You have every right to have a page trying to prove he's the anti christ.

molesting boys is only one thing you accuse him of out of how many?  I really would like you to say here what all you think he's done.. I know theres rape and murder.. what else.

And btw even if benny hinn or some other person i know about and cant stand was accused i wouldnt go along and say.  ooh poor poor kids.. because its plain ignorant to base your opinion on what someone said on a board.

Thats exactly why i think it was appropriate to say "you can post the website but please dont summarize"  in other words let everyone see the quality and/or bias of the websites.. the resources and judge for yourself.

I am dropping this subject however.. for the simple fact it gives people the chance to bring up murder rape etc on a person instead of just directing us to all these websites and letting people judge for themselves..

good luck in your quest for whatever.

[silva]

one last thing.. you brought up Michael Jackson.. thats a good point.

I actually heard when they released the phone recordings of jacksons attorneys with the "victims" parents and their attourneys.  What were they negotiating?  The price the parents would accept to drop he whole thing.  Now some would see this as why would jackson pay to have it dropped.  Any accusation of rape.. the accusation itself not the proof hurts high profile people deeply.  The longer its in the news the longer he has to put up with "jackson raped a little boy".

But why were the parents negotiating for money.  If your kid was sexually assaulted would you agree to forget about it because Jackson agreed to give you 300,000 or whatever it ended up being.  Who had the most to gain from that?  When i heard them negotiating the price i cringed.. the lawyer saying how they wont accept a sum under X amounts to drop it.

They eventually got a sum they were comfortable with and .. no trial.  

I really dont think thats a good example to use to prove someone raped someone.  And to imply if a person doesn't think they did they're brainwashed.

Sorry to get so off the topic but that in itself is a good example of a person being tried in the media.. not the courts.  And people taking their opinion based on the accusation.. not the proof.

[Daniel]

Adrian wrote

quote:but I must remind you that there are many people in these forums who most certainly do hold Sai Baba in high regard, and might take exception to such accusations whether they are true or not.

So perhaps you could tell what was the connection between the old astral pulse web site and the picture of Sai Baba on it?

You can still see it:
http://www.astralsociety.org/links/links.htm

[kakkarot]

ok, here's the deal. i'm doing an internet search right now to try to find even a SINGLE court document about sai baba and the accusations laid against him. so far, i have found none.

if anyone has found one, please post it. the legal court documents should show something that personal biases miss: the truth.

~kakkarot

[Adrian]

Greetings Daniel!

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Adrian wrote

quote:but I must remind you that there are many people in these forums who most certainly do hold Sai Baba in high regard, and might take exception to such accusations whether they are true or not.

So perhaps you could tell what was the connection between the old astral pulse web site and the picture of Sai Baba on it?

You can still see it:
http://www.astralsociety.org/links/links.htm

This discussion has already taken place several times:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1380&SearchTerms=sai,baba

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=747&SearchTerms=sai,baba

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=496&whichpage=5&SearchTerms=sai%2Cbaba


As I said before, I know almost nothing about Sai Baba, but Robert most certainly knows alot and clearly respects Sai Baba. I in turn totally respect Robert's views and knowledge, much more so than some obviously anti-Baba websites.

With best regards,

Adrian.