Jesus Christ

[Frank]

I'm never one for pouring cold water on people's fires. However, something I now and again find myself pointing out, people who live within higher-level realms or densities radiate a kind of energy which makes us feel all humble and gooey inside. At first it can turn a person into emotional jelly.

Yours,
Frank

[Gandalf]

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
None shall come to the Father but by me.
-------------------------------------------

I always say that people that take and quote words from the bilbe as if they are carved in stone, are in for a big shock.

Also I dislike the connotations of your quote as it excludes and damns anyone who does not follow your faith, in fact your quote there basically sums up religious persecution and close-mindedness per say. Do you really think that 'God' refuses humans who adhere to all other faiths and only receives those who follow the human constructed faith system called christianity?
This suprises me, as the fact that you are on this board must mean that you have moved past this stage slghtly and have begun to question and find things out for yourself, which is the first step.

Well, again I don't want to put out anyone's fire but as an Ancient historian myself, there is a growing mountain of evidence that Jesus was not crucified and died later, after having several kids... yes thats right, it is increasingly likely he was married.
the later material is mythology that is added in later, in much the same way as the arthurian mythology grew out of the grain of truth about a real Romano-british ruler around the turn of the 5th C AD.

If you check out the dead sea scrolls for very early version of the bible, Jesus is quite different, in fact quite mad IMO with his rampant vegetarianism and banning fire etc. On the plus side we get a veneration of the 'Earthly Mother' which is excised completely from later version of the bible.

The original teachings are part of a larger radical tradition, with several such anti-roman movements in operation at this time, ie the essenes, the pharasees etc.
These were all radical anti-roman movements.
What we do know is that the original brand of christianity appears to be for jews only or rather ex-jews, although outsiders sometimes converted it was not THAT common and was not really the intention. The idea that EVERYONE should turn to god happend with ST paul, a hellenised Jew, who preached what he called 'The New Way' which was a new form of christinity re-branded for EVERYONE, but this took it quite far from Jesus' original teachings, and irritated John who was a traditionalist.

Basically, Christianity was too extreme for Graeco-roman tastes and so was watered down and 'hellenised' wherupon it was more acceptable to the graeco-roman public.

However, right up until Emperor Constantine's 'convesrion' in 312, christianity was just one of many oriental religions/cults in the roman world, another rival being Mithraism.

Luckily for christianity however, Constantine's mother was chrisian and he was looking for new ways to bind the empire together, so he used his mother's religion - christianity, wherupon it became a world religion, almost by chance.

Constantine had a HUGE impact on what most modern people would term christianity however. At the council of Nicea in the 320's (I think) It was decided (by vote!) whether Jesus was a prophet or a god, (opinion was still divided) and re-incarnation was ruled out for the first time.

Finaly there are lots of problems with mis-translations in the bible which have seriously altered religious belief.
For example, in the greek edition of the bible it states that those who go to hell go there for an 'aeon'. Now Aeon is greek for a thousand years (although this can be variable, but is by definition a finite amount of time)
However, in the later latin editions of the bible and therefor including the modern king James version, aeon is transplanted for 'eternity'. We might think this is a geniune mistake.
However, in other non related passages, the word aeon has been translated with its original meaning intact with no problem, so we have a deliberate mis-translation, which has serious implications.

Anyway, the point is for those who like to take chunks of text form the bible and use it to re-inforce statements: it's not written in stone mate, it was written by men. Furthermore, no one is going to be 'refused' just because they are not christian, or not Jewish, or Muslim, or any other human constructed faith. Once you start making some inroads in the astral you will start to take human constructed faiths with a pinch of salt, as you will find out for yourself one day, I did!
Regards,
Douglas

[Novice]

These are my opinions purely, and I'm not criticizing anyone.

At the risk of heating flames, I agree with Lasher and Gandalf. There is another quote I prefer, (honestly don't know who said it though) "many paths, one destination". I think everyone has the same destination, but started at different times and are taking different paths. It doesn't mean that one path is better than the other. Each person takes the path that serves them where they currently are in their spiritual growth.

quote: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
None shall come to the Father but by me.

And that quote is one that has always made me very uncomfortable for the same reasons that Lasher pointed out.

Don't forget that neither Jesus nor God wrote the bible. You are reading and quoting stuff writtin by men who lived a long time ago, translated by other men who lived later than them, then re-interpretated by many more in a completely different time period. Didn't you ever play the grapevine game as a kid?

I honestly have never been able to understand that some people truly feel that if you are not baptized in Christianity or 'worship' their way you can NOT 'get into heaven'. Do you really believe that someone who is humble, treats others fairly, is kind and generous to all, serves those in need as often as he can, but isn't a christian will go to hell when he dies?!

I honeslty don't believe God cares whatever style someone chooses to worship, if any at all. Worship, in my opinion was invented by man for man. How someone actually lives is what truly matters.

Just remember that in the end all 'religions' basically advocate the exact same thing. Unconditional love to everyone. They have different rituals and rites to celebrate different philosophies. But the underlying message is the same. The problem is that very few people bother to look past the dressing at what lies in the core. They judge by the 'fluff' alone.

Just my two cents on the issue.

[Allanon]

The Perrenial Philosophy

I see that most of you here adhere to the claim that "despite there differences, all major world religons hold to the same basic underlying principles concerning reality". Or something to that effect.

There is a certain theme in the Holy Bible and certain prophecies that came to pass as a result of God's will. Supernatural events that were done with witnesses concerning the superiority of following "One Way". If you read it from cover to cover you will begin to see that the sacrafice of Christ for the transgressions of man was all part of His plan from the beginning.

All in all I am just saying that even besides my knowledge of the Bible my experience of Christ could be equated to the "True God". I have never gotten that from the "Buddha" or "Rama" or any idols that many of these paths worship. I am referring to OBE's when I say this.
Also rituals concerning transcendant knowledge.

On the outside it does seem that all religons point to the same goal.

But a closer inspection reveals One Path that has explicit comments on "idolatry" and "sorcery" and the like. Things that other ways embrace. One way that is God's reach down to man rather than man's attempt to reach God.

Studying other religons besides the walk of Christ will always keep you guessing if you are "good enough" to make it out. Its a big circular mess. Christ is a straight arrow that says "just trust in me dude and do your best". Is that so hard? You may do a lot of good for the world but are you worthy of perfection? Unfortunately none of us are. None of us were strong enough to say no to evil so that we could be considered worthy of perfection.

Mankind needs a saviour. I am sure that some here while "projecting" have seen the evil ones as well. They are beyond us on all accounts.
I am not here to "Buddha bash" or "Bible Thump" but merely to say that it doesn't hurt to just allow a little of your heart to consider what Christ was all about.

[Frank]

What you are saying, Allanon, perhaps made a whole load of sense at the time: the idea of mankind needing a saviour and all that gubbins. But there have been no more bloodier wars fought on this planet, in the name of religion of one sort or another, over the past two thousand years or so. As such, it is only natural that ever growing numbers of people are now beginning to shake their heads in despair.

Yours,
Frank

[Gandalf]

I don't want to appear rude Allanon, but your rather blockheaded approach is just what I have been talking about. Just as you seem to believe from all your careful studying, that the bible contains truths that no other texts do, and is therefor is 'the TRUE way', at the same time there will be fervant believers in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc who will be thinking EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS YOU about their OWN religion.

Can you see how this belief that 'there is ony one true religion' leads to all kinds of conflicts, and has done in the past, as Frank says?

What myself and others have been tyring to say is that you have to realise that much of the written material from which you arrive at 'the one true way' is not written in stone or by god, but by men, a lot of men, over a long period of time with much revision, addition, deletion, mistranslation etc etc.

All we are saying is that you have to begin to question established beliefs. That is the 'first step to wisdom', if you pardon the phrase!
Of course, hardened believers in 'the true way' do not like to question their material as it is 'from god'.
Well, they would say that, wouldnt they?

Regards,
Douglas

[Allanon]

When Jesus first began to preach most of the "institutional" authority figures rejected and hated Him. This is because He offered a way out that transcended all the previous teachings. He was God in the Flesh and He alone had the power to stop the evil. They did not accept Him then and still it is all too evident from a simple read of the posts here to witness the hearts of man turn from the Light.

Have you read the Bible in its entirety Gandalf?

[Shimewaza]

Allanon, I read the posts here often. Just because someone does not agree with your religion does not mean they have 'turned their hearts from the light' as you put it.

There is much evidence to support the theory that Jesus never died on the cross. That the entire resurrection did not happen, and Jesus married and went on to have children. This underminds the entire philosophy of the Christian religion.

Allanon, have you ever read the Dead sea scrolls? The old testament? The Koran? (apologies for misspellings). Christian beliefs have changed quite a lot in the past 2000 years (as far as I know). Which are the correct beliefs..those held in the past, or those held now..?

What a previous poster was trying to say is that your view of your religion is that it has to be right no matter what, for whatever reason..you are basing this on a book which has been so heavily mistranslated and modified over the years? Many different religions have fanatics who refuse to see any other way as being right except their own. Look at all the suicide bombings in the name of Allah.

What I am trying to say is the world would be a lot better off if people would realise there are thousands of different ways. Do they all lead to the same place? I don't know. Which way is right? I don't know. Which way is better? I don't know. But I do believe that certain religous teachings belong to the past. We must all find our own path at one time or another in our lives, and if you want to believe in Jesus that is your right. But rememeber...it is the right of everyone else not to believe.

- Shimewaza.

[Gandalf]

I wouldnt say that anyone here has 'turned from the light' as such.

At the same time, While the later mythology of christianity proclaims Jesus as being god and 'the only true way' etc etc,
this does not mean I don't respect him as a person. Jesus was a very important ancient philosopher IMO, its just a pity that he was hi-jacked by others later. I'm sure the whole institution of the church would have been quite alien to him.
The present day conception of organised church religion is the result of the 'romanisation' of christianity. For the roman world, religion and state should be the same, this was a central feature of the state reforms of Augustus in 27BC.
The later usurpation of christianity as a world religion followed this pattern.

You reject the notion that all religions are different and equally valid ways of looking at the light.
I think this is the single most fundamental fact that unites all religions and yet is completely forgotten in rhetoric such as yours, leading to all kinds of conflict.

There are many ways of looking at the light!

I was reminded of a case I saw on tv last year where an assosiation of Wiccans were organising a meeting to discuss new developments in the world of wicca and share experiences, have fun etc. Many had been looking forward to this for months as many Wiccans do not know others in their area and therefore prize such gatherings.

Everything was going fine and everyone was having a wondeful time, catching up with old freinds etc, when suddenly the doors burst open and a large detachment of christian 'vigilantes' from a nearby bible study group rushed in brandishing bibles and reciting the lords prayer, attempting to banish the 'heathen satanic rituals and black magick' that was going on, this they did, refusing to leave and really tinkling everyone off.
In the end the police were called and the church group were later succesefully sued by the Wiccans for infringing freedom of religious practice.

A typical example of religius intolerence within a perceived tolerent society.
Allanon, I presume would approve of the bible group's actions?

Most actions of this kind are simply the result of ignorance.
For example, the usual statement made by the Christian right, is that Wiccans and other pagan-like groups are 'satanic' or worship 'satan and black magick'.
This is an ignorant responce. With a bit of thought they might realise that Satan is an aspect Judeo/christian thought and has no connection with celtic/pagan spiritual thought, therfore how can they be 'devil worshipers'?

Anyway....
Regards,
Douglas

[Arcane]

I dont understand how, when the truth of the bible is bought into question, people can use quotes from the bible as arguements in favour?
surely that kinda destroys the point of sensible debate

[sacredwater]

Intresting, forget for  a minute the question if Jesus christ is a real person ?(what ever that means anyway)

Just think of him from a thought form perspective, the enormous amount of energy and commitment that the countless host of humanity has put towards the image and belief of Jesus Christ, and yet no one seems to have met him in the astral plane? So clearly the more appropriate question would be has anyone ever had the desire to meet Jesus Christ in the astral plane. I would think if the desire was there you would meet several Jesus, I mean there's a Catholic Jesus, Protestant Jesus, New Age Jesus, Mormen Jesus, Jehovah witness Jesus, hundreds if not thousands of smaller cults, who have their unique image of Jesus.  And of course if the "real" Jesus is out there on the astral he would be a good Jewish Boy, and look more like a rabbi than anything Christianity pictures him as.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Allanon

When Jesus first began to preach most of the "institutional" authority figures rejected and hated Him. This is because He offered a way out that transcended all the previous teachings.

Maybe he did.

Now, two-thousand years later, we have formulated new teachings. Which, in turn, transcended the teachings that came before. This does appear to be the natural progression in *so* many areas of life. Problem is, the teachings in the bible have been transcended to the nth-degree. But there remain significant numbers of people in the world who refuse to accept it.

quote:
He was God in the Flesh and He alone had the power to stop the evil. They did not accept Him then and still it is all too evident from a simple read of the posts here to witness the hearts of man turn from the Light.

Have you read the Bible in its entirety Gandalf?

Allanon, you have every right to your opinions which all right-thinking people here I'm sure fully respect. I have gone through the bible several times, and found it fascinating coming across text which I fully understood from my own experiences within non-physical realms.

Many times I found myself thinking, hang on a minute, if I make allowances for the fact that so-and-so would not have had the benefit of this and that technology; and if I went on to try as best as I could to put myself in their position; at the time: without such an understanding, having that experience I too may well have concluded the same.

So I found, in a quite number of instances, by making allowances in this way I discovered parts of the bible which actually made good sense. Though quite a lot just simply didn't add up.

An example of parts that do, is where residents of higher-level densities or realms, for example, can often be percieved as a bundle of sparkly lights. Plus, they radiate an energy that makes you feel all humble and gooey inside. They don't mean to, it's just inherrent in their nature.

Believe it or not, they really don't want people to bow down to them. They find it quite an inconvenience as it presents a barrier to communication. Far rather they would prefer to be sharing a joke or two. You find residents of the higher-level densities have a great sense of humour and never pass-up the opportunity for a spot of humour: rather than having to endure someone turning to emotional jelly and blubbing their eyes out while kneeling before them. They take it all in their stride, of course, and fully understand what the person is going through.

Think of the number of times people have written in the bible about coming across someone they called "god". A "being" perceived as a bright light, which radiated a kind of energy that made them start bowing down, and suchlike. Thinking the light was actually God would seem only natural.

Guides are often perceived as a white light also. "I am the way, the truth and the light" is an oft-quoted phrase. An instruction to look within and find your guide perhaps? And how about you accusing people of, "turning from the light".

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.

Sound familiar?

I have got neither a religious nor mystical bone in my body. But I have it on *very* good authority that, as miraculous and as unbelievably far-fetched as it may seem, this current physical-reality universe did not come about by chance: it was created. Not only that, just to compound the sheer unbelievability of it all, there are an infinite number of other physical-reality universes as well.

Here's another:

"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

First let's take the phrase, "kingdom of God" Well, surely, they mean non-physical realms here. I mean, the place is teeming with people composed of all kinds of lights, many of whom radiate an energy which turns them into mush. Surely it would only be natural for them to conclude such a place was God's kingdom.

Two thousand years (or so) ago, they would speak about, "entering the kingdom of God". Nowadays we project to the New Exchange Territories at Focus 27; or we might have a scout around the Belief System regions at Focus 24, 25 & 26; or someone from the Moen school might perform a retrieval from someone caught in Focus 23, and so on.

Now take the point about the children. It's ever so common for children to experience non-physical realities, but who grow out of it quite quickly *especially* if the child is encouraged to do so by the parents. We regularly have people posting here who could Astral-project for fun when they were a child (although, chances are, they did not recognise it as such, at the time). Now, as adults, they find they can't project anymore and are experiencing a heck of a lot of difficulty getting back into it.

Plus, I've come across loads of other examples way too numerous to mention.

Thing is, exploring non-physical realms teaches a person the true reality about life. Doing such empowers a person to forge their own path. They don't need to worship some deity in order to guarantee a good seat. All it takes is an understanding of the basic ground-rules; a bit of practice in order to gain a degree of familiarity and control; and away you go.

Fact is, anyone can do it for themselves. They don't need to read some archaic book, written hundreds and hundreds of years ago, with potential for serious misunderstanding to the nth-degree. You can simply project there, and take a good look around for yourself.

Again, what you choose to believe in is entirely down to you. But take it from me, knowing about the bible and/or being a religious person offers precious little advantage. The only definite edge it gives a person is, at least when they die physically, they are expectant of some kind of afterlife. This eases their fears and anxieties about death, so the transition tends to be less traumatic with far less potential for any kind of serious hiccup. But that's about it, I'm afraid.

The people with by far the greatest advantage are those who have already familiarised themselves with non-physical realms, and have carved themselves a path to follow following physical-body death.
Religion really doesn't come into it all that much.

Yours,
Frank

[Allanon]

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[Terry B]

If you would read other book, you would be surprised to see what is written there. Knowledge that is not known until the modern time and many wisdom.  

To you your religion, to me my religion.

[no_leaf_clover]

allanon, you just showed us why most christians are often so hostile towards people of other religions. while people of other religions can accept each other pretty easily, christianity just comes out and tells people that others are evil and wicked and corrupt and going to hell if they dont believe in god, and anyone who doesnt believe in god is your enemy and you have to go convert or them something, because theyre just so evil and corrupt.

i must be the only exception on earth. i'm atheist, and i've never killed or molested or stolen, etc. etc., and as far as lying, with no doubt we have *all* lied. but, i guess i'm sorry to here i'm going to hell. again. [|)] so stupid..

that whole post just refreshed me on how completely stupid the christian churches have become. thank you []

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Allanon

God's Wrath Against Mankind

Whoever wrote that, Allanon, was probably some loner who refused to join in the fun. As to the male side of things, well, I'm not into that. But women exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones... hmm... great eye-candy.

Yours,
Frank

[kromeknight]

I have hesitated in getting involed with this thread because I know what the reactions will be for what I'm about to post. I am a "born again  Christain" for want of a better terminology. Spirit filled as written in the new testament. I have experienced wounderful  phenomena's and studied the Bible almost obsessively. How deep or how literally can one person look into the written words of todays Bible, I have the new King James version. I agree there maybe other books contrary  to popular Christian beliefs with some merit. Here's where my opinion really freaks ppl out, we all talk of ppl's phyci and ego's I believe or ponder really that  Jesus the son of God had his too and while he was bringing ppl's awareness to God and fulfilling the scripures and everything else he was suppost to do while in the flesh he was also confronting  his own shadow ego. God is light and no shadow of turning, there is no darkness in him etc could it be that  Christ is bringing his shadow to consciousness to deal with it. "How could I think such a thing?" you scream. God has sent his 'Angel' to do some really horrible things to mankind in the past before Jesus the Christ was born, this Angel was Jesus in my opinion. There are scriptures discribing both Christ and Satan using the same wording eg 'bright morming star' is the Bible wrong, misinterpreted eg:
1 Chronicles 21:1
Now Satan stood up, and moved David to number Israel.
2 Samuel 24:1
Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go number Israel and Judah".

This is written by two different prophets, about the same historical event. I dont see satan as a horned monster but a ego shadow manifestation. To highlight this Jesus said in Mark 2:26 "And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end." Isn't that what Jesus came here to do, over come the flesh, pave the way to enlightenment.I beleive the Holy Spirit is the enlightened essence of Jesus and the shadow is in all mankind as it was in Jesus. That said it is open for all to become enlightened or evolve spiritualy  if we can just stop being afraid of monsters and really think deeply about spiritual enlightenment.
Ok thats about it you all can start shouting "your nuts","blasphemy"
I'm not saying all this is set in concret but it's an over view of hidden meanings to the Bible, like a rose has many petals this is just one of those petals so to speak.Anyway if your replys convice me that I'm full of it... LoL then I'll just have the more conventional view without trying to look to deeply at the Bible.
krome

[Tisha]

Allanon:  It's hard enough to convert someone to Christianity while face-to-face, so don't even try to do it while online!  In the cold, hard cyberworld, faith will be trumped by reason every time. So just give it up . . . believe what you will, and feel good about that.

I think the original question was whether or not anyone had ever run into JC while in an OBE state.  It is really quite simple, Allanon. While in OBE, you go where you think.  If your mind is full of Jesus, that's who you'll visit!  You might be surprised at what he has to say . . . then again you might not.  

Most people who post on AstralPulse don't have JC as a priority.  So the odds of them visiting Him on the Astral are pretty low.  I for one am pretty convinced that the Real JC is alive and well and doing Good Works in the Astral Realms.  But my mind is not full of thoughts of him, so I don't visit.

I want to relay to everyone an experience I had when I was about 20 years old.  I wasn't in an OBE state, but I have a lot of "otherworldly states" that can be interpreted in a variety of ways.  

Anyway, I got a "visitation."  It was the second one I can remember.  The first time happened when I was a kid and I freaked out and asked it to go away, and it did.  This second time, I was vacationing with m family in Kentucky, sharing a bed with my little sister.  And then "it" showed up.  I don't know if it was the same "it" as the first time.  But it had all the Angelic qualities that Frank described in his previous posts.  

I was in a groggy state of mind and a little more comfortable with my otherworldly abilities, so I decided to ask it a question.  I'd been raised Protestant, but was living life as a Wiccan, heavily into Native American studies, and was wondering about my Christian past, because although I'd rejected the religion, I'd always had a soft spot in my heart about Jesus.

So I asked "it" if it were true, about Jesus, I mean.  Did he really rise from the dead?  Is he really the Son of God?  And the answer was an immediate, resounding YES. I started to cry, probably a mix of relief and awe and fear.  My sister told me to shut up and go to sleep.  

So now I'm pushing 40, and my faith in Jesus has never wavered.  I still have no patience with the Church and don't consider myself a Christian. I'm your basic Witch/Magicworker - - and FRANK you crack me up, always saying you don't have a mystical bone in your body, you DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH! - - - But ANYWAY, please everyone, please know that JC and the Church and the Bible are not one and the same.  When people argue these topics, Christians especially, but others too, tend to get them mixed up.  As if somehting in the Bible could "prove" anything.  Yeah, and the Pope is infallible too.  Crack me up.  

ANYWAY . . . Blessed Be to everyone, and to all a GOOD DAY . . .

[Gandalf]

Tisha, I agree with you on this one. As I said, I think there's no doubt that Jesus was a very important ancient philosopher, I don't buy the later added bible mythology about him being god or son of god. It makes far more sense that he was human, a highly advanced one perhaps, what Monroe might refer to as a last timer, or perhaps even a 'graduate'. Perhaps he was crucified, doesnt really matter imo, it was a common form of execution at that time.

He certainly 'rose form the dead' but not in any kind of physical sense imo, this is more added mythology and there is no real evidence for this, but of course he did rise again in the same way as we all do after 'death', and I think that this is the point.

As for the thing about being the son of god, I think this has been twisted out of recognition. What makes more sense is that he was saying he is the son of god in the same way that we are ALL sons and daughters of god, ie we all have the same 'divine' nature. I dont' think he was talking about himself only, as the bible tries to make out!
Back then there seems to have been a definate plan for higher level people to try to come down and influence people here. Unfortunatly the plan back fired imo leading to all the religious problems we see today.

Now the new idea seems to be for people to 'go there' rather than them coming here, which makes much more sense as it involves direct experience, not just taking someone elses word for it as happens with organised religion.

Things have moved on.....
BTW this is where I have a soft sopt for neo celtic/pagan spirituality as it's central tennent is all about direct experience, not taking someone elses word for it. It also says that there is no external judgement, you are responsible for your own actions and you are your own judge.

Regards,
Douglas

[Serenity1]

I'm not buying into the emotion of this but would like to take the liberty to say some things that could be helpful to the sincere at heart.
Frank you are spot on in the summery of the age we live in. But ignorance is still ignorance and hasn't left the
stage!
I WAS a Born Again Tongue talking Zealous Bible Preaching Christian for 18 solid years (21 -39) and have to just laugh at the nonsense I went through in my pursuit of "salvation". Only when I had an OOBE (whilst in the midst of my 3year theological college
studies) did I (nonphysical/spirit/soul...) understand grattatude, mercy, longsuffering and unconditional love. Before that OOBE it was a bit like the story of "the emperors new clothes" and very frustrating trying to interpret my reality through the Bibles multilevel realities. But I went along trying every new horse on the christian hyper merry-go-round in the hope that I was getting closer to GOD and doing it his? way!!!!.
These days (46) I climbed out of the labyrinth of religion (funny paradox religion - like a  labyrinth within a paddock, then you have paddocks within paddocks...and the paddocks are farms and the farmers are definitely not God lol.)
To get to the point here, there is not a lot I like about christianity any more but other than to mention this that there have been some wonderfull authors in its history and I'm referring to recent history. These authors (were mavericks in themselves because they followed their own experiencial knoweledge of truth, and the church didn't like them then but loves them now because of their fame or whatever...) made an impact on me that I gess opened me up to the reality of the nonphysical in a sense.
I mention them in this thread because they are I believe (if I may be so bold) without a doubt the pioneers of  OOBEing within the Christian culture as it was in their time in England. Their names are George McDonald who in turn was the tutor of the recent
C.S.Lewis (whom I might add were fellow drinkers at the local with the now days famed JR Tolken Lord of the Rings.
I would mention one book in particular which CS Lewis wrote THE GREAT DIVORCE  is very small but concise in its account of his journey (OOBE) and his observation of folk stuck in their belief systems. This book is written, as are most of his journeys, in
a novel style but the impact is lasting and challenges ones paddock belief system no end!

To my simple view "Jesus was not a Christian" Buddah was not a Buddahst etc...

I love some of the stuff that is still untouched (i think, lol) in the bible ie...

"The Kingdom Is Within"  "Seek Ye First the Kingdom..." "In my fathers house are many mansions"
awesome statements which should launch one into the nonphysical just from reading them ?

And i'snt this just what the likes of Ginny and the Focussed Attention laborers (myself a yet hopeful beginner) are doing - pulling these paddock dwellers out of the mud they are wallowing in??? (only when or if they are ready to leave, of course, lol).

excrement, I said I wasn't buying into the emotion of this debate and here I go!

Anyhow back to C1 !!!LOL.[8D][]

Cheers to you all and your journeys into the "many mansions"???[]

[PeacefulWarrior]

First of all Tisha you shouldn't have chosen the avatar you did for I am easily excitable and I have, since a young age, had a thing for Elvira...well, at least for certain "parts" of hers.

Anyway, I think this is a very interesting topic.  I too want to say that the Bible, the "church" and Christ are very different things depending on who/what/how you are talking.  

Christianity has become very problematized and as a Chrisitan I feel bad that I need to "explain" myself.  The experience is a personal one and, to be honest, I don't associate myself with most other Christians, maybe on a fundamental level, but I disagree with on most points with almost every Christian I meet.

I guess if I have one thing to say it's this: don't judge every Christian the same and don't just me because of what others have said and done.

[Frank]

I think Tisha's parts are spot on. They certainly give me something to aim at, projection-wise.

Yours,
Frank

[Tisha]

What parts, Frank?  The ones in my post or the ones in Elvira's bra? HA HA HA!  (Sorry guys I don't mean to debase the discussion, this is just crossover from another post).

[Tisha]

OK now I see Peaceful Warrior's post and sheesh, I guess I'll have to explain myself again!

Quote from other post from Astral Chat (i.e., the crossover referred to above):

"You see, my ex-husband used to describe me as a cross between Elvira and Martha Stewart. Frankly, he found the Martha Stewart aspect the more disturbing of the two, even before her indictment, and before our divorce. PS: If I find a Martha Stewart avatar I'll upload it, and give housekeeping advice."

And, also, it's the only Avatar I've been able to upload so far.  Enjoy it while it lasts . . . Martha is next!

[goingslow]

Oh brother