Morality of positive euthanania for end stage Alzheimers disease?

[Alan McDougall]

 
   
End stage Alzheimer's disease and the morality of positive euthanasia

Hello All,

I have long thought about exactly where the soul/mind of an Alzheimer sufferer exist in the End Stage where the person has become so incapacitated that they are zombie like and comatose. Playing Devils Advocate I put a few points for discussion as follows"

Could the degradation of the mind due to end stage Alzheimer's disease suggest that the mind and, resultantly, the human consciousness could be transient things?.

Does this prove that most preconceived notions of an afterlife are fundamentally flawed?

Must we be able to perceive, evaluate and understand the afterlife for in to become a reality in the afterlife? E.g. or heaven or hell are creations of the mind which appears dead in the end stage Alzheimer sufferer?

Mind might not survive without a functioning human body. Does the eternal soul live on? If the consciousness dies then the thing that makes you an individual, self-aware human might cease at that moment also?

As the disease progresses the Alzheimer's victim goes through anger, rage, violence, depression, regressing to childhood, forgetting current life - almost living in a 'past life' state. in random stages of this disease...

The final stage of the Alzheimer sufferer is unspeakably difficult for the family who must look after and nurse the person they loved so much but who is now just a blank eyed robot that somehow retains the ability to eat and drink.
.
I have seen the terrible devastation of this disease where the person is apparently absent from the body and the body lives on as a mindless biological entity.

But the body was the vehicle of the soul of a loved one, is this person trapped in the horror of dark void, or has the mind or soul ceased to exist.?

Does the  person trapped inside a dark Alzheimer body suffer unspeakably and if we could really establish this, would not positive euthanasia be an option?.

If God, forbid, I ever got into this state I would welcome someone giving me a huge dose of morphine and releasing me into my destiny

What do you think about this vexing problem?

The difficult question is can positive euthanasia ever be justified?

[CFTraveler]

I have a problem with this premise, or more exactly, three problems.
One:
I see a couple of assumptions (that you need a functioning brain to support a mind to move on) which seem inherently flawed.  You may need a brain to perceive the physical in a linear and coherent (and limited) way in your lifetime if it's supposed to be like that; that is, if you came to have these experiences to bring to the afterlife.
But the idea that you have to be clearminded to the end seems to come from the idea that you store your thoughts in the brain, therefore the brain must be clear to usher these experiences to the other side.
Yet, anyone that has had a trip to the Akashic Records knows that memories are not stored in the brain, they are stored in the Akasha (or nonlocally, or some other way) which is why science has yet to find a place where memories are stored- yes, the brain seems to mediate storage in a holographic manner, but we yet have to find where the memories go.
So, the idea that passage needs to be lucid for one's life to be valid seems naive to me- born of tradition and belief.  But if you look at case histories of people that have had NDE's and OBE's to the other side you will see that everyone goes through a period of inner processing, where all experiences are sorted out and resolved if possible, until they decide what's going to happen next- whether they feel they need to come back, or to evolve to something else.
So the idea that Alzheimer's would possibly somehow deter a soul from progressing seems very flawed to me.
My second problem is that there is a supposition that the person is 'trapped' in this 'dark Alzheimer's body'.
Let me tell you a story.
As you may know, I've been projecting for a number of years (since I was 8 or 9, and am now 51).  I only began to control my projections around 8 or 9 years ago.  This is for background only.
When my grandmother started to get sick, she also got Alzheimer's.  At the time for personal reasons, I couldn't go see her.  I tried to project to her, and couldn't, for a few reasons, mostly that my emotional angst at not being able to see her before passing was getting in the way.  After a few times of trying I gave up trying to force the issue, and asked for help.  I immediately was taken (by beings of light) to her, and talked not only to her, but with my long-time deceased great-grandmother, who made me feel much better.  I felt better because I was able to see her.
Then, a few weeks later, she came to see me.  When she did I asked her if she died.  A voice (not her) said "no, she is still alive".  I was then told she was still alive but was traveling visiting her loved ones because she was leaving.  That day I called my mom and asked her how my grandma was.  She told me she was fine.  About a week later I was told she passed.
So we went to the funeral.  When I was there, I asked my brother about that week I had the visit from her.  He then told me that was when she went into a coma.  My mom wasn't informed about this when I called because they didn't want to freak her out, but my brother knew, and didn't tell her.  So my visit had been when she was in the coma.  It was apparent she knew she was going and was saying goodbye.
Later on I heard from my sister and other brother that they dreamed about her in those days.  Of course this could be explained 'away', but it's interesting that they happened when she was in the coma, and not before or after.
About a month or two after she died I asked to be taken to her again, and found her in a situation in which she was going through some sort of inductive process and was told (again, by my great-grandmother) that I couldn't talk to her, because she was going through this process.  I was able to see who she was with, and my g.g. talked to me, but I had to stay clear of her, or the experience would end.
This was last March, a year and a half ago.  About a few months ago I was again taken to see her.  I found her in a state that she could talk to me, but was fixated on some religious beliefs that were causing her considerable angst.  She was in the 'belief territories', and was creating some stuff for herself, but was no longer in 'isolation', and could receive counseling and input from others now.  So I sat with her and helped her deal with some of her beliefs. (In other words, we argued).  I don't know if I ultimately helped her, but at least she was exposed to alternative theories that she didn't have the opportunity to be exposed to in life, due to her cultural upbringing.
I haven't been there since, I have been going through some of my own stuff, but I know she is lucid and coherent and hope that when I see her again she'll be more like the woman I knew, a considerable force indeed, someone I love very much still.
So I know that her mental acuity (or lack of it) was just one more stage she had to go through in this earth school, maybe the lesson wasn't for just herself as it rarely is, but for those who had to care for her and see her deterioration.
And now the third (and undoubtedly more controversial) objection:
It takes considerable amount of ego to think that one has the ability or even right to know when another person's  worth as a human being ceases to be- to think that any one person 'knows better' whether another should or shouldn't live is completely beyond my understanding.
The idea that someone else should be allowed to decide when my life should end and think they're doing me a favor is not about 'helping' or even 'wishing me well', it's about believing they have the right- and that's all about ego, nothing else.
ps.  If you however, decide you don't want to have that experience (that is, living with a mental defect), then you are making this decision, not someone else, and that is a whole different thing.

[Alan McDougall]

CFTraveler

Thank you for a great post, it would really comfort those in the process of buckling under this disease as well as those having to care for the sufferer as the receded further and further from this world into the next

An old man I know got to the stage where all he could do was grunt like an animal it was horribly to observe. If I ever got to this aweful stage of this terrible sickness, I would hope someone would aid my passing over to the other side and release my souls connection to this mortal body

[CFTraveler]

Well, it is my belief that if this is your choice the universe will find a way to accommodate you one way or another.

[Xanth]

While we're spiritual beings having a physical experience here on Earth.
It's easy to assume that our physical bodies are required to actually experience this plane in its entirety.
If something as important as your brain/body isn't working properly... then perhaps the spirit/mind can't focus entirely here.

So I don't believe anything is lost... I just feel that the alzheimers victim just can't use their body in a manner that is required to experience this world anymore.

I guess one could think of it as a "Reverse Projection"... kinda. LoL
Whereby the physical body is now the projection that is losing consciousness/focus and isn't able to interact as closely with that plane as they would like.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

If we consider the existence of non-linear time, then we can logically say that the process of learning doesn't exist.

We've been introduced to contemporary theories about the existence of 11 dimensions and non-linear time.

Maybe everything occurs simultaneously, and the product of total consciousness finds its origins and evolution in pieces that fall together at the same moment and in a way is reverse engineered. For example, we have total consciousness first, then we create a story of event parts to create and explain the already completed puzzle. The entire puzzle starts in the completed state then is cut, the pieces scattered, then a recording of this is played in reverse as the concept of linear time enters perception and we move towards the goal of putting the puzzle together or evolving towards completeness.

(Why is it played in reverse at our level within the context of time? Because we are always moving towards total consciousness with the origin, beginning, and ending all being the same.)

I like the idea that an over-soul or higher collective self needs to experience the trials and tribulations of an oppressive physical confinement, (although the purpose of having to do this is unclear.)

The problem I see with the higher self concept is that the same mistakes are repeated a multitude of times. Lessons are not learned, so the lack of learning is apparent.

How many times is it necessary to experience the horrors of Alzheimer's and any of the other physical ailments to understand and to move on?

Final conclusion: If total consciousness is non-linear and simultaneous, then learning is impossible, every event has occurred without sequence, as time is only a perceived illusion.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

Alan, not sure that you would relate to my post because my comments aren't doused in generous dollops of syrup and goo. 

I believe that basically, we have suffering because this system is broken.

The point I'm trying to make in the above post is the acknowledgement that our current existence is dysfunctional and the malfunction should be corrected, repaired, fixed.

Can we vow to fix the problems with this creation instead of just rolling over and bleating, " all is good"  ?
Best regards, Willson.

From the Frank Kepple resource:

"Actually, I am NOT saying this: There is NO excuse for ANY KIND OF SUFFEREING! It is true that we are here to experience, but that does not mean that we have to experience horrendous suffering or that suffering is somehow 'good'. The fact is, the physical world offers us a plethora of possible experiences, so many in fact that there is no need to immerse ourselves in endless horrific situations just for the hell of it. Our most innate natural state is in fact one of joy, peace and comfort; to experience the opposite to any great extent is not healthy.

In fact, the only useful aspect of experiencing agony and suffering is to learn how NOT to experience more agony and suffering! These are NOT naturally desired states and should be avoided if at all possible. Of course, the nature of the physical world and its freedom of action can make this impossible, as we are emotional creatures after all. We can all expect our fair share of pain, but there is no excuse for encouraging these negative aspects. The best we can do is to focus on the love and positivity than can arise from such painful moments, providing we give them a chance to do so. We should do our best to encourage an end to suffering everywhere! "

[CFTraveler]

Alan, not sure that you would relate to my post because my comments aren't doused in generous dollops of syrup and goo. 

I believe that basically, we have suffering because this system is broken.

The point I'm trying to make in the above post is the acknowledgement that our current existence is dysfunctional and the malfunction should be corrected, repaired, fixed.

Can we vow to fix the problems with this creation instead of just rolling over and bleating, " all is good"  ?
Best regards, Willson.

From the Frank Kepple resource:

"Actually, I am NOT saying this: There is NO excuse for ANY KIND OF SUFFEREING! It is true that we are here to experience, but that does not mean that we have to experience horrendous suffering or that suffering is somehow 'good'. The fact is, the physical world offers us a plethora of possible experiences, so many in fact that there is no need to immerse ourselves in endless horrific situations just for the hell of it. Our most innate natural state is in fact one of joy, peace and comfort; to experience the opposite to any great extent is not healthy.

In fact, the only useful aspect of experiencing agony and suffering is to learn how NOT to experience more agony and suffering! These are NOT naturally desired states and should be avoided if at all possible. Of course, the nature of the physical world and its freedom of action can make this impossible, as we are emotional creatures after all. We can all expect our fair share of pain, but there is no excuse for encouraging these negative aspects. The best we can do is to focus on the love and positivity than can arise from such painful moments, providing we give them a chance to do so. We should do our best to encourage an end to suffering everywhere! "

I agree with you Innervoyager that we don't have to suffer- but I think this is a different theme.
I personally believe we create our own reality, or at the least cocreate with God.
This brings us to the idea that everything we experience is important and valuable, because it makes us be who or what we are.
The problem lies in believing that valuable is the same as necessary- and thus some believe that because all experience is important, that somehow that means suffering is necessary- and thus they create the conditions that create suffering, and do it not only for themselves but for others, and propagate this idea, because suffering leads to growth.
However, even though everything leads to growth (in my worldview, at least) doesn't mean that you have to suffer to grow- on the contrary- if we are a part of the whole, then causing ourselves to suffer also causes the 'all' to suffer, and this can't be positive, in my view.
Someone wise said (some time ago) "I can learn more from Joy than I can learn from suffering".  So really, choose Joy, and not suffering.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

Someone wise said (some time ago) "I can learn more from Joy than I can learn from suffering".  So really, choose Joy, and not suffering.

Great advice and good choice. Even if our circumstances are going well, we see the world of suffering in the periphery.
If we reside in heaven, do we agonize about the existence of hell?

I can go to my "happy place" in meditation, but does that fix things? I hope, and try so.

In a way, I feel that I have a serious mental disability when experiencing physical consciousness compared to getting that little taste of free consciousness beyond the physical.

Like coming back and thinking, WOW, that's what it's like to really have a  mind just before feeling lost in the dull fog of mediocrity, the concerns of maintaining a biological survival machine, and then becoming distracted by inherited desires of the body.

We still have primitive tribes along the Amazon where the average life span is 32 years.
I think they have the right idea. Do your time on Earth, accomplish the task of being a sensory probe in deep physical, store the experiences, then retire after 32, instantly going from mind in the mud to Cosmic consciousness.

The favorite advice I've received is simply, " Be Happy".