The Astral Pulse

From http://www.ptypes.com/schizoidpd.html

High Openness
   Preoccupation with fantasy and daydreaming; lack of practicality; eccentric thinking (e.g., belief in ghosts, reincarnation, UFOs); diffuse identity and changing goals: for example, joining religious cult; susceptibility to nightmares and states of altered consciousness; social rebelliousness and nonconformity that can interfere with social or vocational advancement

Ok, I know I have problems, but is that the reason I beleive in all these things? I've been learning more about myself recnetly and have discovered I am an Introvert and have Body dysmorphic disorder. So what does this crap above mean? Is it just a form of control?

Thats what a schizoid is? Sign me up! I wanna be a schizoid.

Most of mental diseases are not a diseaese at all, they are only diagnosed like that. This is why it's impossible to cure them with drugs.

Theoreticly if everybody in a city saw the same UFO or ghost, all kinds of science instruments confirmed its real, and it was published in the most respected books, that text says the viewers are crazy, but the real retard is the one who wrote that. How do they know somebody didnt really see something?

Beavis, I have a very easy answer for you.

As much as I look down on the workers in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, they are well within their right to classify the above as a personality disorder.

Quotepersonality disorder n.

Any of a group of disorders in which patterns of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about one's self and one's environment interfere with the long-term functioning of an individual, often manifested in deviant behavior and lifestyle.

Thankfully, not all people with PD's are forced to have treatment. Generally, no one is required psychiatric treatment unless they have committed a crime or are an invalid.

However, not being able to integrate well with society is a serious problem. If you do not have the choice or ability to friendly with others, to experience joy and stimulating conversations with others, then it is as if you are a legless person who does not have the choice or ability to stand up.

So, regardless of whether UFOs, ghosts, and all that are real or not, there is a strong correlation with believing in those things and not being able to integrate with society well. Someone who had a genuine UFO encounter is very much like a WWII veteran suffering a traumatic experience and not being able to integrate back into society well. The same might as well be said OBE's, as they are sometimes very traumatic.

heter, that link you gave us provides a handful of varying types of therapies on the bottom of the page. Surprisingly, they all have the same success rate. Almost all the different schools of thought in psychotherapy have the same success rate. And that success rate is "pretty good," which is why that similarity is not such a big deal. However, it does mean that if you are able to find your own means of integrating with society, then you do not require therapy.

Sometimes I very much would like to question the mental health of everyone in this forum, especially all the people who say, "I create reality." Does that mean you create society? If so, does that mean you constantly create a society that outcasts you? How much sense does that make? On the other hand, if you integrate well with society, then there is really nothing wrong you. But if you integrate well with society, how can you make such a dubious claim as "I create reality," without a whole of lot redefinition (belief constructing) on the words "I," "create" and "reality?" And how do you succeed in creating reality by redefinition of words, when words must be socially agreed upon in order for them to work?

I'll have to better organize that for another thread.

Regardless. Stop right now and check yourself. Are you able to integrate with society well? Then demonstrate it to yourself so that there is no doubt.

Quote from: TelosBeavis, I have a very easy answer for you.

As much as I look down on the workers in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, they are well within their right to classify the above as a personality disorder.

Quotepersonality disorder n.

Any of a group of disorders in which patterns of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about one's self and one's environment interfere with the long-term functioning of an individual, often manifested in deviant behavior and lifestyle.

Thankfully, not all people with PD's are forced to have treatment. Generally, no one is required psychiatric treatment unless they have committed a crime or are an invalid.

However, not being able to integrate well with society is a serious problem. If you do not have the choice or ability to friendly with others, to experience joy and stimulating conversations with others, then it is as if you are a legless person who does not have the choice or ability to stand up.

So, regardless of whether UFOs, ghosts, and all that are real or not, there is a strong correlation with believing in those things and not being able to integrate with society well. Someone who had a genuine UFO encounter is very much like a WWII veteran suffering a traumatic experience and not being able to integrate back into society well. The same might as well be said OBE's, as they are sometimes very traumatic.

heter, that link you gave us provides a handful of varying types of therapies on the bottom of the page. Surprisingly, they all have the same success rate. Almost all the different schools of thought in psychotherapy have the same success rate. And that success rate is "pretty good," which is why that similarity is not such a big deal. However, it does mean that if you are able to find your own means of integrating with society, then you do not require therapy.

Sometimes I very much would like to question the mental health of everyone in this forum, especially all the people who say, "I create reality." Does that mean you create society? If so, does that mean you constantly create a society that outcasts you? How much sense does that make? On the other hand, if you integrate well with society, then there is really nothing wrong you. But if you integrate well with society, how can you make such a dubious claim as "I create reality," without a whole of lot redefinition (belief constructing) on the words "I," "create" and "reality?" And how do you succeed in creating reality by redefinition of words, when words must be socially agreed upon in order for them to work?

I'll have to better organize that for another thread.

Regardless. Stop right now and check yourself. Are you able to integrate with society well? Then demonstrate it to yourself so that there is no doubt.

Do you integrate well into society?

Quote from: NosticDo you integrate well into society?

Yes, and I take it for granted. Some people clearly suffer illnesses, physical and psychological, that do not allow them to integrate well.

However, I do not integrate well when I prioritize altered states of consciousness above things like, say, homework. If I skip class to meditate, thinking that everything is consciousness and I can make everything up later through some superhuman feat of psychic willpower - society kicks my butt.

I don't integrate well with society at all

well my uncle   is  a  schizoid  and he doesn't believe in anything pointed there lmao

though he hears voices =)

My ex was schizoid, it really isnt a big deal. Most of the population has some symptoms of the various personality disorders etc, and 50% of the population is an introvert. I am an introvert. Who wants to integrate into society anyway? I am borderline personality, but I dont care. I do what I can with it...deal with it, and people accept me or they dont.

I seriously believe you can read too much when it comes to symptoms...why bother with someone else's opinion of the traits such and such ought to be displaying? Just be yourself for goodness sakes lol.

Quote from: GraelwynI seriously believe you can read too much when it comes to symptoms...why bother with someone else's opinion of the traits such and such ought to be displaying? Just be yourself for goodness sakes lol.

That's really the best advice in my opinion, too.

Just don't make yourself an angry, touchy, bothered, secluded anti-social person, or you'll always be upset. ;)

Okay, well, I don't have this disorder but I have suffered from panic attacks, anxiety and depression.  I have also studied psychology, the various forms of it.  I can understand some people getting defensive about having their belief system described as pathological.  I don't think though that is what the psychologists who wrote the DSM-3 had in mind.  I think what they can be blamed for is not describing the disorder in a more clear way so that it doesn't include the entire human race, since we all have some level of belief in God, Gods, paranormal abilities, etc.

I went to a couple of sites last night to look the disorder up.  I think the type of person they are referring to is someone who was probably neglected emotionally as a child, who spends their ENTIRE time in some sort of fantasy believing that they are surrounded by conspiracies, aliens, etc.  That they are sooooo overcome by these fantasies that they can't work, create or maintain relationships, or basically have closed themselves off from the rest of the world.  Maybe they are the type of fellows who sit in dark rooms in front of the computer 24/7, looking up conspiracy theories, while their mums beg them to come down to tea and as they decide to go down, they kiss their cut-out supermodel poster and tell her that they won't be long and how happy he is now that they found a real woman.   :wink:   :lol:

It is not about the functioning person who believes in ufos or other similar things but does go out with friends, enjoys life, is functioning fairly well in society, not that life is perfect and that they are always functioning perfectly but overall they are pretty okay.  They have some level of grip on reality.

I think that on some level it is true that there will be some of us who may have leanings towards this sort of personality but that it isn't a disorder.  Maybe because of our experiences it has made us more wary of people, but we can still interact.  In these cases, we can look at our own behaviour and if we want to change it we can do that ourselves or with the help of friends or family.

However, there are some people where its not just a personality trait but has become a disorder, that is, it has become disabling.  In that case it may require intervention.  Maybe they aren't even aware of it and the family have asked for medical intervention.  I mean look at drug addicts and alcoholics who often find it so hard to believe that their behaviour is having any sort of effect on other people, that their habit is destroying their bodies and minds, its only when they get clean that they can see things like this.

Every now and then I hear a statement about 'how its all in the mind (well, dah!) and its just a matter of getting yourself together and not being such baby.  If theres a problem just do what you need to do to get yourself out of it.'  Its not that easy.  When I was very depressed, no amount of my trying to cheer myself up was going to fix the problem.  When I have a panic attack, no amount of telling myself I shouldn't feel this way is going to make me feel calm.  Its as if there is a cliff, where up to the edge you can say, yeh, I can fix this myself, but once you are over that edge, you are on a very different level and without intervention, there just isn't a way you can get back up by yourself.  Depression is not just feeling very very sad.  Its on a whole different level.  People with schizoid personality disorders are not just loners who believe in ufos, they are also on a whole different level.

Look, I am not saying that we should get stuck on diagnoses because I think that people are too quickly placed into pigeonholes.  However, on the other hand the idea that all psychology is wrong, I think is faulty as well, because for those who do present with problems, a very large number find relief if not cures.  I think there is a place for medications, for behavioural therapies, psychotherapies, as well as, spiritual healing, the healing found in friendships and family.  I don't see why it has to be one or the other.  Yes medication doesn't cure everyone, but it does help a lot of people.  Its true that the other therapies also don't cure everyone but you can't discount the fact that there are a large number of people who do get better.  

I am curious, for those who believe that psychology is faulty or evil, what would you do if someone came to you with the symptoms described as a schizoid or schizophrenic or any of the other disorders in the DSMs?  Do you have specific alternatives which are going to be 100% cures?  I know that sounds smart but I am actually asking genuinely, do you know of alternatives?

Telos

QuoteAs much as I look down on the workers in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, they are well within their right to classify the above as a personality disorder.

Quote:
personality disorder n.

Any of a group of disorders in which patterns of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about one's self and one's environment interfere with the long-term functioning of an individual, often manifested in deviant behavior and lifestyle.

Ok, (in some of the ways listed above) I'm disorderly. Good! I love to bring disorder to society. They can call it whatever they want, but that doesnt change what it is.

QuoteThankfully, not all people with PD's are forced to have treatment. Generally, no one is required psychiatric treatment unless they have committed a crime or are an invalid.

I doubt they'd force me. I'm not crazy, just weird. But that is what a crazy person would say isnt it? Then lets say I have rare but true knowledge.

QuoteHowever, not being able to integrate well with society is a serious problem. If you do not have the choice or ability to friendly with others, to experience joy and stimulating conversations with others, then it is as if you are a legless person who does not have the choice or ability to stand up.

I can and so sometimes, but not as often as most. Its not that its too hard. I just choose not to as often. Most normal people are boring or only have an average intelligence. I like weird people.

QuoteSo, regardless of whether UFOs, ghosts, and all that are real or not, there is a strong correlation with believing in those things and not being able to integrate with society well. Someone who had a genuine UFO encounter is very much like a WWII veteran suffering a traumatic experience and not being able to integrate back into society well. The same might as well be said OBE's, as they are sometimes very traumatic.

I agree there is a correlation, but they're saying EVERYBODY like that is crazy.

QuoteSometimes I very much would like to question the mental health of everyone in this forum, especially all the people who say, "I create reality."

Probably some of the people here are crazy, but I dont know which. I'd guess more are sane.

There is some truth to what they're saying, but not to that extreme. We INFLUENCE reality in ways not predicted by the known laws of physics, ways that souls have direct control of, but most people are unskilled so they do a lot of random things.

I do think its probable that all life forms and maybe dead things too, combined and with the same goal, have extreme control over this reality to change the apparent (but not the real) laws of physics or make things appear out of thin air etc, but one person does not. Quantum physics allows those events (without specifying the cause), but says its very unlikely. And it is unlikely, because most people have little psychic skill. Or do you have a better theory to explain why reality is sometimes inconsistent with itsself?

Example: I had a book with no page numbers on any of the left pages. I checked 50 pages and paid much attention because I thought it was weird. 2 days later I found that most pages have page numbers, and they're still there now.

You probably saw nothing inconsistent about reality, but I know what I saw, and no amount of "help" can erase that memory. When I saw that, for logical reasons, I chose to always think it really happened, even after I get old and my memory fails. Nobody can ever make me think it might not have happened, even if I become insane later. Its too important a fact to lose.

For evolution-related reasons, we tend to slowly lose belief in things if they're not repeated in some form. That is not always the most intelligent behavior.

QuoteI am curious, for those who believe that psychology is faulty or evil, what would you do if someone came to you with the symptoms described as a schizoid or schizophrenic or any of the other disorders in the DSMs? Do you have specific alternatives which are going to be 100% cures? I know that sounds smart but I am actually asking genuinely, do you know of alternatives?

For diseases like schizophrenia and autism, where there are very clear abnormalities in the brain associated with the disease, I don't have any alternatives - other than to suggest that the disease falls into the realm of neuroscience rather than psychiatry.

But for mood disorders like depression, or other diseases where there are no clear abnormalities in the brain, and there is only the dubious claim that there is a "chemical imbalance," there are very VERY important alternatives that psychiatry and psychology just ignore as a practice. Because, you see, psychiatrists and psychologists recognize that in theory, lifestyle changes like diet and exercise can change one's mental health, but do they do anything to help the patient along with this? No, because dietitians and fitness instructors do that. What about helping the patient find a meaningful job? No, because headhunters and educational institutions do that. What about helping the patient learn meaningful skills? No, because skill instructors do that. You see where I'm going with this? Psychiatrists will generally give you a pill and ask you to come back in a week for another hour of "how are you feeling?" and "did you take your medication?" and repeat ad nauseam. Because that's all they're good at.

Telos I agree. For things where the solution isnt obvious, unlike if you have a heart attack you should go to a doctor, we are smarter than the specialists. We have general knowledge, and they want to do their specialty. We need to choose which specialist to go to.

Hi,

I have had medication, cognitive behavioural therapy and psychoanalysis for the anxiety.  The medication was hopeless or horrible for me.  The cog behav I can separate into two because I have actually done a short term group program and I also saw a couple of psychiatrists years ago who called themselves cog behavs but were happy to see me once a week doing nothing more than having a chat.  Either way it was useless or I found it patronising because they weren't listening to me the person, I may as well have been one of their lab rats.  Psychoanalysis for me has been the most successful not only in terms of my anxiety levels but it has helped me in a sense to grow.  

There is often a misconception that all psychotherapists, including cog behavs who do 'talking therapies' are the same.  They aren't.  There are things which all my previous therapists missed which my psychoanalyst has not, questions I wish I had been asked which they never did, etc.  I believe that psychoanalysis and probably Jung's analytical psychology work best for me but they are not the same as cog behavs doing counselling.

Now I agree with you about the fact that all the various psycho-treatments/therapists/scientists are not working cohesively to offer the best treatments for people and because of that there are many who are falling through the cracks and becoming revolvind door patients.  I also have longed to see a central entry point for people who consider themselves to have a problem where they can come and their situation will be looked over by several professionals including naturapaths, dieticians, social workers, etc, so the person is treated as a whole and from every angle.  Not only this but that the agreed plan is seen through from start to finish without the threat of government slashing services or funding.  I mean, some people may turn up with a simple phobia which can be successfully treated with short term cog behav, others may need only to be monitored for medication levels and may need more living skills support, yet others may need long term, frequent, depth psych treatments.  One shouldn't be punished for needing more or less and each should have their needs met because only that way will they stop coming back into the system and wasting taxpayer's money.

I am not sure what you mean by some cases being left to neuroscience and not psychiatrists.  Neuroscience is a study on which psychiatrists depend.  I mean, its like saying that marriages should be celebrated by theologians rather than priests.  I studied basic neuroscience on my way to becoming a psychologist (I am not a psychologist, it was what I was planning).  Psychiatrists treat people because they are medical doctors who are able to advise on chemical treatments.  A neuroscientist is not a medical doctor so they couldn't recommend chemical intervention.  Perhaps I have misunderstood what you meant.

I am not supporting psychiatrists because I think that a lot of them stink as therapists and they treat their patients as money making machines.  For those who need long term treatment, finding a psychiatrist is next to impossible because why should they put up with a difficult long term case when they can see a schizophrenic or manic depressive whom they don't have to really deal with, they can just give them pills.  I am not saying that schizophrenics don't have their share of complications but patients who are anorexics or self mutilate or are borderlines, etc, need constant monitoring as they are constantly in one crisis or another.

I think the whole system stinks and needs to be overhauled.  The first thing that needs to happen is that the therapists and scientists need to stop using patients as pawns in their 'chicken and egg' arguments as to what comes first, the chemical imbalance, the childhood trauma, the maladaptive learned behaviour, etc.  They need to sit down and recognise that they are dealing with real people who need real help and that it may be help on several levels.  In that sense I think we are in total agreement.

I think we already have very good treatments but people are being denied them because of incompetence, lack of vision, ie, a cog behav won't send a patient to a psychoanalyst when they are unsuccessful, lack of funding, a corrupt system and a system where people just getting referred.

I guess when I was asking you what alternatives did you perceive, I meant do you have alternative treatments or ways of thinking of mental illnesses and disorders to the ones being recommended at this time.  The fact that the system sucks at the moment, well you would have to be blind not to see that.  I only read today that two community mental health services are about to shut in the Chatswood area in Sydney.

Okay, now I feel like I am hijacking the thread - can't half tell I have an interest in this!  :roll:   :wink:

Telos I would like to answer your question about the mental health of people how say that they create reality.

First off let me tell you I integrate well into society :), and I too take it for granted sometimes.

Ok now the "I create reality" does not literally
mean what it says. It does not mean that I create
rain or trees or what ever.

That simply means that I create MY reality.
I choose the way I think about anything, and
"as you think, so shall you become".

That last quote is very true also but not if you take it out of proportion.
If my dream is to be the best football player of the world, and all I do all day is eat and sleep, that obviously will not happen.
But if I train everyday, no matter the weather, my mood in that specific time, or anything else you CAN after a long time just achieve that goal.

The key is to be positive about that goal, not to loose faith in oneself and WORK HARD for it.

Well that is at least the way that I see the phrase "I create reality"... but I also always add "my reality".

Hope this will help you understand that mindset a little better.

Heter I agree with people that you don't have a disease if you function as a normal individual.

About integrating with society, IT CAN BE LEARNED. I have myself as an example:)
What is your problem with people ?

Is it fear to talk to them, do you dislike most people or what ?

Quote from: Smilodon29AHeter I agree with people that you don't have a disease if you function as a normal individual.

About integrating with society, IT CAN BE LEARNED. I have myself as an example:)
What is your problem with people ?

Is it fear to talk to them, do you dislike most people or what ?

I sort of fear people. I fear being seen by a stranger because of what they might think of me. I also don't like the way most people act and think. I used to go out and have friends, but It just didn't feel right. I am now out of school and spend my days in my room alone. Not doing anything to productive and afraid to go outside in fear of what people might think of me. I am also ashamed in my appearance. I beleive this contributes to my fear of people. I feel like an outcast or a freak for the way I am in every aspect. Especially the way I look. I look at spirituality as an escape in a way, and I also look at it as being very important and that I can learn from it and better myself. I don't spend much time on energy work or obe anymore though. I stopped because I wasn't seeing amazing results. It's the way I am to stop and never finish what I begin. There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

heter, if you dont talk to those people, why does it matter what they think? Do you care what some random person 100 miles from you thinks about you? If not, then why care what the local people you avoid think? If you do, then I'll have to tell you what I think about you....  :evil:

I care what people think about me only as much as its useful to me for them to think certain things. I want potential employers to think I act professionally. (theoreticly) :twisted: I would want drug dealers to think I wouldnt touch a suit. If I dont expect to ever want anything from a certain person or people they talk to, it doesnt bother me if they think I'm a waste of skin (unless they get in my face about it).

QuoteThere hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

Thats scary. I finish pooping with toilet paper. I guess you dont even buy it.

Well the answer is simple: work on your physical appearance, go out more.

Just work in baby steps... do a thing that feels a little scary until it no longer does, and then move on.
Just like learning to AP :)

And about finishing things, it is just a question of motivation.

Quote
I sort of fear people. I fear being seen by a stranger because of what they might think of me. I also don't like the way most people act and think. I used to go out and have friends, but It just didn't feel right. I am now out of school and spend my days in my room alone. Not doing anything to productive and afraid to go outside in fear of what people might think of me. I am also ashamed in my appearance. I beleive this contributes to my fear of people. I feel like an outcast or a freak for the way I am in every aspect. Especially the way I look. I look at spirituality as an escape in a way, and I also look at it as being very important and that I can learn from it and better myself. I don't spend much time on energy work or obe anymore though. I stopped because I wasn't seeing amazing results. It's the way I am to stop and never finish what I begin. There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

I think that your problem is using spirituality as an escape from life. With spirituality is seems that life has some sort of "deeper sense", but what if it hasn't? (nearly)All the suffering would be meaningless then, and there would be no reason to escape from life...
I use spirituality and occultism as a tool to make my life more enjoyable, and this caused total change in myself in less than one year . I stopped being afraid of people, I have many friends, so I can get help when I have problems, and I love to help people, but not because of Karma(I don't believe in it) - just for fun.
I think that the problem of suffering is rooted much deeper in the mind than people think. Somewhere in the subconsciousness people might actually ENJOY problems and suffering, and love to complain about it. I think that when subconsciousness will be reprogrammed, the desire of success will be so strong that you cannot fail.

Quote from: heter

Quote from: Smilodon29AHeter I agree with people that you don't have a disease if you function as a normal individual.

About integrating with society, IT CAN BE LEARNED. I have myself as an example:)
What is your problem with people ?

Is it fear to talk to them, do you dislike most people or what ?

I sort of fear people. I fear being seen by a stranger because of what they might think of me. I also don't like the way most people act and think. I used to go out and have friends, but It just didn't feel right. I am now out of school and spend my days in my room alone. Not doing anything to productive and afraid to go outside in fear of what people might think of me. I am also ashamed in my appearance. I beleive this contributes to my fear of people. I feel like an outcast or a freak for the way I am in every aspect. Especially the way I look. I look at spirituality as an escape in a way, and I also look at it as being very important and that I can learn from it and better myself. I don't spend much time on energy work or obe anymore though. I stopped because I wasn't seeing amazing results. It's the way I am to stop and never finish what I begin. There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

Hi there Heter, it sounds like you're going through a real low at the moment.

In order to get out of it, one of the first things you need to do is accept the way you look. In fact, you have to genuinely like the way you look. I don't mean this in a conceited way; I'm just saying that one can find beauty in anything, but it is often hard to see at first.

Not only do you need to accept yourself physically, but you also must accept the person that you are, mentally. Perhaps you might find Franz Bardon's exercise on Soul mirrors useful here... Its in his book, Initiation into Hermetics. This exercise forces you to confront every aspect of your personality, positive & negative. Then it allows you to change the parts you do not like.

People often say "a leopard can't change his spots", but this just isn't true. Happy people do fall into depressive states, or fall upon hard times. Unhappy people often change their outlooks on lives as they grow older, & become very positive people, unrecognisable from when you knew them e.g. 10years previously.

Ok, I'm probably going to start sounding like some kind of crappy life-coach type person, but who cares...
1) get outside. Walk with your head held high, looking at the horizon. Take a stroll through a park, and enjoy it !
2) if you have family, spend a bit of time with them, even if its only going to the shops or just watching tv with them.
3) try and do a good deed for someone each day.

This advice might seem like rubbish, but give it a go. Maybe it'll help you feel a bit happier about yourself, I hope it does !!

Mark

Mark that kind of advice is not rubbish, I have myself as an example.

Heather do what he says, but about the way you look, I would rather suggest you do some workout as that alone adds a lot to your confidence, not to mention you feel good after it.

Quoteyou also must accept the person that you are, mentally

or change yourself to what you want to be

it's impossible for a person to change what it is.
you're bound to be what you are due to your genetic code.it's not possible to change the genetic code after the person  is born.

I was built by genetics, and genetics gradually heal injuries, but a brain can diverge far from where it started. You can find examples in insane asylums. Some of them, I've heard, are insane in some areas and geniuses in others. But a person doesnt have to start insane to become insane. I've heard anti-psychotic pills can make people insane.

normal persons can't become what  Einstein,newton,Alexander the great were by their own will power.these giants  were born to be genius.

so become what you want to be,it's  impossible and those cases of  people becoming genius in some areas must have something to do with  mutations within the genetic code

4) Enjoy exercising.

5) Exercise enjoyment.

If you think it is not possible, then it is not - for you.

They are not born to be like they were.
Rather they were influenced by their parents, surroundings, friends, books they read etc...

Do not limit your potential by thinking that you could never achieve anything.

I'm not saying i can't achieve anything,after years of trying and positive thinking if that even has some influence..i still haven't become what  i want to be.
knowing me i can say i can achieve normal things,live a normal life,be a normal person,average etc
ah those gods of mankind,newton etc well some of these genius didn't even had any contact to any kind of education system but the

(like the case of the amazonian Indian who with only one old math book solved  problems that many famous math teachers tought it was impossible to solve) what I'm saying is i can't achieve greatness by my own free will,  by thinking i can do it,simply by wanting to,or trying to, i simply like most people don't have what it takes to do what i really want to do /to be.

i for example was always very very very very bad at maths no matter how much i tried how much energy i put into become at least average in maths it never solved my problem with maths

so again my point of view in my case at least is proved :P

Yeah I think we actually have a same point of view.

All I'm saying is that all of us could do great things, if we were influenced from the beginning.

The problem is that the society fancies "normal" people.
Almost all great people get laughed at at some point or the other.

Leannain, I don't believe that people are "just bad" at certain things. You just never had the motivation to learn math properly, and that's not your fault. I'm not sure what the schools are like in Portugal, but here the U.S. math education is severely lacking in both meaning and purpose.

A couple years ago, I underwent a full psychological examination and was diagnosed with "mathematics disorder." Contrast that with the fact that, when I was much younger, I was the best math student in my class, to the point where the teacher felt compelled to give me extra work. What happened? Math got real boring. To be fair, it was boring then, but as a child for some reason it was easier to make things fun. To sum up, I haven't been exposed to situations where math was meaningful, and I am frustrated by meaningless math examinations.

So, coming from someone who is "officially" disabled in math, let me tell you that you're probably not disabled in math. You just had really bad teachers.

My roommate freshman and junior year was a student who wants to be a math teacher. He is even more disdainful of the state of math education than I am.

HM Portugal   is ranked by the EU as the country with the lowest  education system heh..

but nonetheless  since  i started school  since the first year i had troubles with math, i had extra lessons trough the years but i never managed to get a positive @ a math exam no matter how hard i study.
of course i had the motivation to learn it,hell if i didn't learn it i'd get seriously *** up by my parents =D anyway jokes aside, i don't blame it on the teachers or the education system all teh other student no matter how much they hated or liked maths they still managed to pass  the problem is me =)

telos,mate,Einstein was held by his teachers,his parents,everyone aside him as a retarded person because he had very low grades at school lol.funny thing though his grandfather said he was bound to do great things. (i lost teh link to this funny story  :roll)
in my opinion Albert's low grades at school are explained by the fact that he was/is so far superior to the people around him that the things he was supposed  to learn at school bored his mind so much that he didn't care about it.

Quoteof course i had the motivation to learn it,hell if i didn't learn it i'd get seriously *** up by my parents =D anyway jokes aside, i don't blame it on the teachers or the education system all teh other student no matter how much they hated or liked maths they still managed to pass the problem is me =)

Part of the problem with the educational system is that it herds students (who have diverse interests) into situations where everyone is expected to have exactly the same interests at exactly the same time. As such, educators use material that they know will give a "normal distribution" of grades... some high at the top, others low at the bottom, but most in the middle.

I say that mindset is bunk.

Everyone is genius when guided by their own interests. If you were properly inspirited, you could be Einstein tomorrow. I know that is a somewhat lofty claim, but I can't keep myself from making it.

heh in that case the world would be full  of genius, telos  ;)

true there are people who have a gift for i dunno music while being ver bad at languages

others are very good at languages but bad at music
the education system should focus on each person "gift" to develop it instead of trying to fill people's mind with things that the person will not use in his life
but thats just my opinion and if the governaments did that they would spend  a lot of money so i aint seeing that happen

Quote from: Leannainheh in that case the world would be full  of genius, telos  ;)

It is! Unfortunately, "collective genius" can sometimes be an oxymoron, no?

Quotethe education system should focus on each person "gift" to develop it instead of trying to fill people's mind with things that the person will not use in his life

Absolutely.

Quotebut thats just my opinion and if the governaments did that they would spend  a lot of money so i aint seeing that happen

Ironically, I think they'd spend less money. It would have to mean freeing students to discover their own gifts. And I don't see the government giving students more freedom anytime soon. They'll still be treated like animals.

Just thought I'd let you guys know, I'm not a girl and my name is not Heather. I'm 15 and I'm a guy. I have been trying to improve myself in the past 2 years and have succeeded to an extent, but as soon as people have told me I'm ugly and as soon as I started getting disrespected (around the time I started high school a few months ago) I went downhill from there. I found that the reason I might be so sensitive is due to either Having Introversey, or Body Dysmorphic Disorder. http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Eating_Disorders/peacelovehope/bdd.html

I sort of see myself as a freak no matter how I look. I don't have many people to rely on my family, just My brother and my sister, and they are out of the state. My mom would not be able to send me to "get help" because she supports me on her Husbands money, and he wouldn't want to waste it like that.

The maths thing in part is a matter of imagination and how you perceive the whole concept of maths. I was distinctly average at maths. Yet concepts were easy enough,  I just didn't have the patience to attempt to apply them.
I've taken (even though I'm 27 now and don't *need* it) a few private lessons with a decent mathamatician who uses it all the time in his job. My first lesson got me through the basic concepts of calculous and why certain functions were -1 to +1 etc, in the process he explain radians to me.  In an hour and a half, the time flew because we were both real interested in what we were doing!.   Maths is hard unless you suddenly get interested and find an approach, a way in.

I found programming totally incomprehensible, until a damned decent teacher managed to connect and explain it. Turns out he was kinaesthetic primarily too.
A way in mentally is all you need, usually a real good one on one teacher. I'd say more but I'm real drunk here :-))

Heter,

Please don't feel alone in this.  You can do something about this.  You don't have to suffer it and if you are young doing something sooner than later is vital.  Don't let it become an entrenched behaviour because then it becomes part of your psyche, it sort of becomes your personality and it is harder to treat.

I don't know where you are from, but if you check out hospitals they usually have outpatient clinics where they run individual and group therapies for disorders like these.  Universities also have clinics.  Apart from this, you can also see your local doctor who can refer you to such a clinic.  If the short term behavioural treatments don't work, don't get phased because there are other treatments which may suit you better, its just that they tend to be longer term.  

In Australia we have a service called Lifeline which is a phone service for people who are in crisis, however, they also have a great knowledge of free available services.  I am sure that wherever you are there will be a service like that.  Also, since you are 15, hospitals and other organisations tend to take that into account and offer free services.

Honestly, I think your parents would prefer to be poor and know that their son is alive and well.  Don't let the disorder twist your thinking around and make you think otherwise.  No parent would prefer to go to their child's funeral than pay for a therapist!

I do believe in you and your ability to heal and it will begin with you doing a search of the services available.  If this is too hard, then write to me privately and I will do a search for you.

Please believe me it will get better and that it is not how you look but what you think about how you look.

I am sorry, but why all the labels? The way to deal with this isnt to give yourself a bunch of labels... it is rather to simply learn all you can about yourself and to accept the way I am. I used to go around looking up what various things I might be...but realised, it doesnt matter! You work on the parts you can work on and you do it for yourself. None of the disorders you list are irreparable or life threatening... And also, in the end the only person who can do anything about your issues is YOURSELF! One can have endless therapists who can listen and advise, but unless you start actively doing the work, you will remain the same and continue to spew out these labels. You are slightly different to most, so what? Everyone is unique and special in their own way...learn to understand yourself and accept the way you are, because in the end, it matters not one iota what others think of you if you cannot love and respect yourself.

Graelwyn,

The simple truth is that there is a purpose to diagnoses, it helps people distinguish what they are talking about, in this case;

depression is not sadness
social phobia is not the same as just being shy.
agoraphobia is not the same as being a home body.
anxiety is not the same as being a worrier.
eating disorders is not the same as someone wanting to just be slim.

Etc...

Any of these without treatment progressively get worse and can cause death.  In constrast, being sad, shy, a home body, worrier, wanting to be slim, etc, are things any individual can work on by themselves.

I think that in an attempt to not label people and be politically correct sometimes we can end up ignoring people and problems and end up being more cruel.  If a person has a physical disorder, there doesn't seem to be as much controversy about that.  No one says, lets not label the thing in your body as cancer, you just need to figure or work on your problems alone, don't waste your time with doctors...etc.  Why is that?

People will defiantly judge you all the time.

The more popular you are the more they will judge you, because then you are more in the spotlight.

Just do the exercises suggested, and don't give a excrement what they think of you.
Soon you will learn they are too preoccupied of what you think of them.

And stop labeling yourself !

I'm glad that the 3 doctors and the psychiatrist who all really believed I should use antidepressants of various kinds were wrong in my case. The problem with labels and definitions is that they get these things wrong tooo often.  And that they are not recommending any multidisciplinary approaches - at least not in my case.

Maybe they should consider creating places of peace and variety for those patients who do seem to need that help, places where multiple disciplines from dietary and nutritional, to sports, social, educational/work and healing practices are all combined.

Don't listen to what psychiatrists say.  :lol:

That branch of science remains most underdeveloped of all. (IMHO)
Just as there are a huge variety of human bodies, there are many kinds of minds.

If you assume the variance of human bodies from a (hypothetical)standard to go say from -75% to +75%, you can assume that the variance of minds from a (hypothetical)healthy mind, goes -200% to +200%.

Nature needs all the variety, you know.
Those minds which don't fit are naturally deselected. Thats the ultimate treatment for 'mental disorders'.

I entirely subscribe to what Beavis said, lol:

Quote from: beavisThats what a schizoid is? Sign me up! I wanna be a schizoid.

And Beavis, I had similar experiences with books as a kid, too.

QuoteI had a book with no page numbers on any of the left pages. I checked 50 pages and paid much attention because I thought it was weird. 2 days later I found that most pages have page numbers, and they're still there now.

I used to read some lines, then get some food or think a bit, and, when coming back, the text was different. It happened a few times. Interesting was that I remember that I had read the lines more then once the first time, so I was quite sure of their meaning lol.
Recently I've heard that this kind of tricks are Angel Gabriel's signs, because he controls matter and the elements, also, creates links between the unconscious and the conscious mind (he is the messenger  :wink: ), also they are signals that what we call reality is not the most stable and 'real' manifestation of the collective being. So, sort of... "You are in a cage, have you considered this possibility? Try to see the real. It will be more fun!"

Heter, you have received a lot of good answers, and see that most of the people who are sending replies to you are very much sympathizing with you, and also, they do not consider you a medical case  :) . Also, these people (if you check their other messages or the level of this forum as a whole) are good and well educated people, who have as well interests in spirituality and the subtle psychic dimension as normal lives and professions. So, compared to what your colleagues say (and they are confused 15 year old kids, too  8) ), which company and thought would you appreciate more? (Oh, please... be nice and say that ours  :wink: !!!)

And, has anyone seen K-PAX? I loved it! Also, it shows that patients are not always what they are labeled for and that psychiatrist have a good chance, if initiated by the proper person (in this case an alien lol).

(Atlanta, sorry for this humor, I agree that there are very good psychiatrists, but also a lot of fraud and that many people are being terribly mislead). Actually I have showed this thread to some friends yesterday (persons both meditative and with a usual social life) and they also agreed. One is preparing to become a Jungian analyst. So...

Heter, you should gather your strength, face your-self (not the others, they are not that important) and get over it. Some martial arts are good, I would suggest Aikido, because it emphasizes the peace and the inner insight, not the aggressiveness. Or try other balancing stuff, meditation (The Body disorder you mentioned is psycho-somatic... , as many other symptoms the modern people suffer of, so a proper inner balancing is more effective then medication), or arts... I don't know, something that you would enjoy.

There are some theories today, and I agree to them, that there are more and more children being born with special spiritual abilities, which are over the 'normal' level of conscience, inborn spiritual little people so to say, which are diagnosed as autists, because they are not too interested in the usual way of reacting. Unusual to autists, they would also react to someone else's pain or suffering and try to bring comfort. I have met many such children, some from yogi families some from usual, hardly religious families, so I totally agree. How is that 4 year old children insist to go more often to the church or fast, though nobody in the family in interested in these?? :wink: And I'm not talking about bending tea spoons with the thought or levitating (I've never seen such things), but about a high interest in spirituality and a definite capacity to balance the people in the environment.

Telos, I would agree here also with the creating reality idea, as this kind of people change the society.

So a link I know is http://www.thecrystalchildren.com/
Read a bit and write to them, Heter, and ask the same question. You'll see that they will laugh at these labels and restrictions and will like you immediately.

hehehe, even this SpellingCow has understood it, it wanted to replace 'autists' by 'artists'... :D

Heter, to warn you  :?  :D , even after you'll have found yourself and a meaning of life and inner satisfaction (and this will happen :) ), there will be a lot of people wanting to change you. It happened to me: I've fantasized so often in my childhood about suicide, because I had been taught that there is no God (one of the benefits of a communist society), so I could see no meaning in life, no purpose. OK, I had my hobbies and I was learning well, but I could not live for getting good marks. It was a sort of autism, though I cannot compare myself with other people regarding the spiritual capacities. So, during these years of permanent depression, no one gave my the smallest advice about psychic comfort, spirituality, insight etc. They all seemed not to see anything, though they are educated people, what to say...? (Because people can sense the 'danger' and avoid getting into questions they cannot solve.) But after I have found a clear balance, my questions have been answered and I started appreciating my life... You see, then a lot of advices started pouring about me, all very 'wise' and 'sensible'. And they were all very concerned. Sometimes I also feel that spirituality can be more disregarded that death, though death is also a great taboo lol.

Oh, and I've always considered that I was looking terrible, though now I see this as a joke. And most of the people around me were not thinking the same. But, when you are not comfortable with your life experiences, you start hating the body. I feel it is like (subconsciously) you feel that the matter is not allowing the spirit or the subtler part of your being to manifest, but as long as you are not aware of means to enlighten this body and to make it the instrument of the spirit, than you feel that it is hindering you and this creates a great tension inside. Anorexia and other such disorders have this cause, this tension plus some family conflicts, sometimes.

Or we try to get out of the body, having OBEs for instance. this is also a tension, because there are people (of a high spiritual level, indeed, who can travel, on a mind or even physical level, without leaving the body). If we understand that this duality of mind and soul, on one side, and the body, on the other, is a mere illusion, then we don't need to split ourselves? Of course, everyone does what he decides it is best for him/her, but when we reach the final stages of understanding and development, there is no need for duality.

Hey, all the best to anyone, sorry for the long posts, but I really enjoy talking to you here :)

Ana-Maria

You just gotta learn to like yourself, Heter.

 Do some aerobic exercises, if you need to lose some extra weight.  Muscle building exercises are good too, they certainly do help with your self image, especially when you start seeing results.  A couple of 10 or 15 pound dumbells is all you need to start.

 Get a new hair cut.  This is important.  Don't just get a hair style that everyone else happens to have, or the one you've always had, but one that you like.  I've seen good looking people go down right bad, and bad looking ones to attractive, simply because of a change in hair style.

 Other than that, just learn to not give too much weight to what people gossip about ya.

sweetbliss

QuoteI've fantasized so often in my childhood about suicide, because I had been taught that there is no God (one of the benefits of a communist society), so I could see no meaning in life, no purpose. OK, I had my hobbies and I was learning well, but I could not live for getting good marks.

If you will exist for 70 years, millions of years, or forever, how does that affect the meaning? You should still do what you want to do now.

For the meaning of life, see a dictionary. Its one of the biggest scams people have come to believe, that there is some meaning but nobody knows what it is, except for the preachers. They claim to know it too well. All they want is to conform you to their retarded beliefs. None of them know a meaning other than the one they made up, or took from somebody else who made it up.

If some "god" made up a meaning, its certainly been lost in the translation to your society. Be a good christian/whatever. Have sex with exactly 1 person. Spread the word of the translation of a translation. If thats true, I still reject it. I am nobodys slave.

</rant>

Quotewhen you are not comfortable with your life experiences, you start hating the body. I feel it is like (subconsciously) you feel that the matter is not allowing the spirit or the subtler part of your being to manifest, but as long as you are not aware of means to enlighten this body and to make it the instrument of the spirit, than you feel that it is hindering you

Its true bodies and physical things distract spirits so much they usually cant choose to do the paranormal things they want to do.

Quote from: beavis
If you will exist for 70 years, millions of years, or forever, how does that affect the meaning? You should still do what you want to do now.

For the meaning of life, see a dictionary. Its one of the biggest scams people have come to believe, that there is some meaning but nobody knows what it is, except for the preachers. They claim to know it too well. All they want is to conform you to their retarded beliefs. None of them know a meaning other than the one they made up, or took from somebody else who made it up.

If some "god" made up a meaning, its certainly been lost in the translation to your society. Be a good christian/whatever. Have sex with exactly 1 person. Spread the word of the translation of a translation. If thats true, I still reject it. I am nobodys slave.

I agree with Beavis in part because eternity is in the moment, practice mindfulness of each moment and you live an eternal life because there is no past and the future hasn't happened yet.  When you live in the past or the future its as if you also don't exist, but if you focus on the moment in which you are in, you exist in completeness.

I disagree with Beavis's statement about religious beliefs.  Its not the first time I have heard statements about how people are being 'conformed' and I don't get it really.  Perhaps in certain countries where the population is starving and the religious groups enter promising food, etc, then you could use that argument but when you are living in countries like the USA, England, Australia, etc, I don't think you could claim it is conformity.  There simply is so much variety in belief systems and the freedom to pursue any of them that to suggest that these people are being forced to conform by a preacher is plainly false to me.  I think if people are being fooled by preachers, then they are choosing to be fooled, but they are still not being forced to conform.

People make decisions about what they are willing to believe and participate in.  Its also unfair to brush everyone in a religious group as being of the same mind.  I know from my own experience, that I have never met two people in the one religious group who think alike.  I know of people who could be classified as fanatical while in the same group there are people who are so liberal in their thinking to the point of being 'heretical'.

People enter these organisations, judging the information they are given and then they look at the results of that information, experiences.  People make their decisions on confirmed experiences, not on a whim and not because they are forced, at least not where I am from.  They witness changes in their lives, they witness what is to them miracles, evidence of a Higher Power and they choose to enter the group.

To give an analogy, there are some people who would say that the topics that this site covers don't exist, that we are all irrational or even mentally unstable individuals.  They might even consider our Robert Bruce our preacher who has brainwashed us.  That we have to some extent conformed to fit into this group.  They may also claim that we have formed our own meanings about a reality that doesn't really exist.  They may say that OBEs and the like are non-existent, a product of a sick mind and that there is no proof, etc.  Now you may say that there is proof, but they may dismiss it out of hand, not even bother looking at the evidence.  You may give them examples, and they may tell you it was just luck, etc.  

I guess what I am saying is that whatever your arguments may be against religion, they can be used against your beliefs, so before you pick up stones to throw at the glass house across your street, you may want to check if you might not be living in a glass house as well.  Because, as far as I can see, maybe you are on the wrong site if drawing meaning from events offends you.  :wink:   *I am saying this teasingly.*

Does this make everything that religion says right?  No, of course not.  I think many of the experiences that the religious people have are paranormal experiences which eventually will be explained by the language of science, that at the moment they are disguised in flowery language of religion.  Its like sex and romance.  You can have one or the other or both, but just because sex is more 'solid' an experience, doesn't mean that romance isn't as important or valid.  Just because a paranormal event takes place like the healing of a person, doesn't mean that we can't encase it with meaning, ie, that the person's faith in God had something to do with it, or that the healer is a saint or witch, etc.  The meaning it is encased in, has a life of its own, in the same way that romance takes on a life of its own.

In the Hindu tradition, they use the term Neti Neti, 'what is God?, God is not this, God is not that'.  In other words, once all the meanings that we attribute to God are taken away, what is left is God.  It is paradoxical because we think, at least in the west, that attributing meaning to God is what is important.  We talk about God is Love, God is Justice.  We never say just 'God is' and leave it at that.  This is where religious folk get into trouble because once you attribute a feature to God, you have missed God.  Once you have a sentence like God is Love, you have the opposing folk saying, yeh, but look at all the misery of the world.  So when someone asks me what or who is God, I answer, God is...  When I am asked what does that mean, I tell them that I will let them know when I figure it out but I do know like Jung before me, 'I don't believe in a God, I know there is a God', I just don't know what that means.  :wink:  :lol:

One of the worst problems I have with religion is that most people choose a religion because their family, friends, or people around them believe it, and say its the best religion.

R = quantity of major religions. Except for one religion having more followers than an other, and other details, on average the chance of a particular religion being the best is 1/R. If people choose arbitrarily by copying those around them, they have only a 1/R chance of being correct, which is a small chance.

How many of you have the same religion of one of your parents? Did you get that religion before you were old enough to understand what it meant? You are a fake believer.

As for experiences, lets say I worship the Butt God, who says bad things will happen if I touch butts. I test his theory and find that the more butts I touch, the more time I spend in jail. Therefore the Butt God is real! And my faith in him dictates he be the only true god.

Quote'I don't believe in a God, I know there is a God', I just don't know what that means

You cant believe something you dont understand. Someone might say "the particle supercollider is operating at maximum quantum coherence", and you dont understand it, but you can only believe the other person is correct. You cant believe anything about the coherence itsself. What would you say if I asked some weird question about the coherence? You'd have to ask that person. You have no knowledge about coherence to say its true or false. A christian doesnt believe in god. He believes that Jesus believed in god.

Quote from: beavisOne of the worst problems I have with religion is that most people choose a religion because their family, friends, or people around them believe it, and say its the best religion.

R = quantity of major religions. Except for one religion having more followers than an other, and other details, on average the chance of a particular religion being the best is 1/R. If people choose arbitrarily by copying those around them, they have only a 1/R chance of being correct, which is a small chance.

How many of you have the same religion of one of your parents? Did you get that religion before you were old enough to understand what it meant? You are a fake believer.

As for experiences, lets say I worship the Butt God, who says bad things will happen if I touch butts. I test his theory and find that the more butts I touch, the more time I spend in jail. Therefore the Butt God is real! And my faith in him dictates he be the only true god.

Quote'I don't believe in a God, I know there is a God', I just don't know what that means

You cant believe something you dont understand. Someone might say "the particle supercollider is operating at maximum quantum coherence", and you dont understand it, but you can only believe the other person is correct. You cant believe anything about the coherence itsself. What would you say if I asked some weird question about the coherence? You'd have to ask that person. You have no knowledge about coherence to say its true or false.

So, are you saying then, that before we can be a 'true believer' instead of a 'fake believer', we must know everything about our own religion and everything about every other religion?  If you were hungry and began a walk to find food and a few minutes into your walk you found some food and filled your belly, would you still be walking looking for food?  For some people, the religion they grew up with sustains them and they don't wish to look further.  It may not be your decision but it is theirs and they are content with it.  My parents are content with the faith they were brought up with, I was not.  I went through several religions and came back to my parent's one, not because mine was better but because I believe all religions have valid experiences and I felt comfort and familiarity in the one I grew up with.  Why are my parent's, by your logic, fake believers and I am a true believer since we both belong to the same faith?

I never said I understood God, in fact I actually said that I don't understand God.  What I said was that there is a kind of knowing that I experience that tells me that something is there.  Have you ever written a scientific paper with statistical analysis and stated that your results are absolutely 100% true?  No.  Why?  Because as any scientist will point out statistics are only pointers to possible truths, yet, there are many things we take for granted as being true based on those statistics.  Every time you get into a plane, you are putting your faith in a science you may not understand.  You don't say that you must know every part of engineering, etc, before you will believe that planes exist and that they fly.  You just know.

I don't understand lots of things, ie, I don't understand how it is that I can describe where a dead body is lying in another country I have never been to, describe her kidnapper, the colour of his car, when the body would be found, etc, all before the police have even figured out if she was kidnapped.  I just know that I know.  I may never understand it, should I not use this ability?  

Sorry, I am being nagged to go to sleep.  Hope it all makes sense.

QuoteSo, are you saying then, that before we can be a 'true believer' instead of a 'fake believer', we must know everything about our own religion and everything about every other religion?

Before you can truly believe some part of your religion, you must know some things about that part. You cant just say you believe the contents of page 563 without ever reading, thinking about, and understanding it.

QuoteIf you were hungry and began a walk to find food and a few minutes into your walk you found some food and filled your belly, would you still be walking looking for food?

Depends if it poisoned me. I couldnt say its the best food, regardless of how good it was.

QuoteWhy are my parent's, by your logic, fake believers and I am a true believer since we both belong to the same faith?

I said that about people who dont examine other religions, but you are only less guilty, since you havent examined all the others except those few, unless you admit yours is probably not the best, whatever it is.

QuoteEvery time you get into a plane, you are putting your faith in a science you may not understand.

No, I do not have faith the plane wont crash. Its unlikely, but I get on knowing I might die.

QuoteYou don't say that you must know every part of engineering, etc, before you will believe that planes exist and that they fly. You just know.

I must at least see the plane fly, or know some other things that imply a plane can probably fly. Without that, I would be undecided.

QuoteI don't understand lots of things, ie, I don't understand how it is that I can describe where a dead body is lying in another country I have never been to, describe her kidnapper, the colour of his car, when the body would be found, etc, all before the police have even figured out if she was kidnapped. I just know that I know. I may never understand it, should I not use this ability?

I doubt you have enough skill to do that reliably. Either way, thats based on experience, so its ok.

I am not sure why you feel the need to be disrespectful and judgemental towards me or other people.  I don't mind discussing these issues but I don't feel like I ought to have to put myself in a position where I am being disrespected.  I get the impression that you are very set in your thinking about this issue and as such, it would be a waste of my time to try and discuss this with you.  I can answer your statements, its not that I can't debate this, its that I am not sure you are willing to discuss this openly without attacking me in the process.  I don't come here because I have to, I come here because I want to.  I have two small children and two elderly parents to deal with, I simply don't have the energy or time to deal with a closed minded, negative, fundamentalist, even of the atheistic variety.

Good luck and goodbye.

Quote from: atalantaI am not sure why you feel the need to be disrespectful and judgemental towards me or other people.  I don't mind discussing these issues but I don't feel like I ought to have to put myself in a position where I am being disrespected.  I get the impression that you are very set in your thinking about this issue and as such, it would be a waste of my time to try and discuss this with you.  I can answer your statements, its not that I can't debate this, its that I am not sure you are willing to discuss this openly without attacking me in the process.  I don't come here because I have to, I come here because I want to.  I have two small children and two elderly parents to deal with, I simply don't have the energy or time to deal with a closed minded, negative, fundamentalist, even of the atheistic variety.

Good luck and goodbye.

I just returned from hospital where my father had an operation for bladder cancer.  Its been an emotional and exhausting day and I think that caused me to overreact in my statement above which was written while dad was being operated on (I thought that coming here would distract me  :roll: ), and which I apologise for.  However, I still think that basically it would be useless to discuss this issue.  Its not the first time I have debated this issue.  In the last couple of months alone I have had this same discussion on about five different threads in two different sites with both atheists and Christian fundamentalists.  I have had this same debate over and over for several years with different people.  You'd think I would have learned by now.  :roll:  :wink:  I have yet to see anyone win this debate and at some point it gets frustrating to keep trying to convince someone of your experiences and knowledge when they are determined to negate them.  This is just one more such debate for me and I just don't feel like doing this anymore.  Maybe others will and I will keep a lookout for new posts but right now, it can't be me, perhaps in a few days.   I am just too tired right now.

going back to like the first page, and the original topic of heter:

"appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others;

shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity."

Heter- that is not you at all. You react to criticism and you are certaintly not emotionally cold.

Like caco said, its just a 'term' used.

Not everything is used as a  method of control. Lots of it is, but you should be able to tell when its just a term used in this society, not everything is meant to push you down  :?