PROVE IT!!

[Skamoni]

So far I have sat back and watch people go on about there experience with 'kiniese and other stuff. Basically i want anyone to post a picture or video that PROVES that they can do what they say...

[knightlight]

your funny... gee, i cant think of a way to prove that I can leave my body considering I have to be asleep... hmm... cant help ya dude.  Ever tried any of it yourself?  

[Ben K]

I think he means in the physical...like PK, ESP, etc..

[knightlight]

photos and video can be doctored, are you sure thats the proof you want?

[alexd]

Why is proof important?


Alex

[Monsolith]

Hi Skamoni !

There have been several pictures and videos of this kind being exchanged on the forums. But as the file section disappeared, I'm not sure where to find some here. However I'm sure you can find some links to remotely hosted files by performing a search on the threads.

Anyway if you're looking for a good site dedicated to psychic abilities such as PK, TK, telepathy, psi constructs, etc, here's one : http://www.psipog.net
In the media section you will find a bunch of video files, mainly about the eternal psi-wheel, but some of which are really eye-catching (like the toothpick one).

But as knightlight highlighted (huh ), multimedia files can be easily tricked. So are your senses. Without willing to make senseless generalizations, I think most people wouldnt even believe someone performing TK in front of them, pretexting that a skillful conjurer could do the same (which is true indeed).

In fact, there's nothing you can be sure of (except that you think and are, Descartes would tell you). What makes something a "proof" isn't its validity itself, but the belief (not to say the faith) you put in it. And that includes science. For example, nothing can *PROVE* gravity, not Newton's equations for the least.

Common language defines "proof" as something that is relevant enough to believe. However, the evaluation of this "relevance" refers to a particular belief system. Then, whether the fact naturally fits the belief system, and people will tend to search arguments for its validity, whether it doesnt and arguments for its invalidity will be proposed. For example, you will say of something you've never seen that you lack information to have faith in. If you're provided a video, you'll say it can be tricked. If you're shown it in front, you'll say your senses can be tricked. At the end, you won't ever find any true evidence that can annihilate your non-faith, because you will always find counterarguments if you persistently look for them. That means, you can't build anything constructive with a destructive method.

My advice would be that you think over your belief system and procedure, in order to find what YOU can really put your faith in or not, and for what purpose. Then I don't think you'll come back on forums and ask for "proof" again (in this way at least).

Just food for thought.

With love.

[Kazbadan]

We cannot speak on proof on that way. I understand what skamoni means and i want the same thing he wants.

Proof and belief are not the same thing. When we speak about proofs we refer to facts that shows how something works. Real facts obtained by impartial and serious people. So, in this way we will ignore things like religion,tk, etc from our serious vision of the world.

One thing it is saying: "There are some people claiming that have TK powers, lets study it and see if its real"

the other thing its saying "TK its real if you believe on it, it depends on subject".

The first affirmation its the one i choose. There is an objective reality behing our subjective one.

Gravity exists because you see it in 2 ways:
- theory (like from Newton or Eisntein) has a big array of explanations that can predict many things from our universe. We know, that must exist something like gravity because Einstein equations can predict the "aberration movement" of Mercury planet. We know that gravity its real because Newton can predict the movement of planets using his equations and formulas.

-We know that gravity its real because if you thrwo something into air it will fall down.

Now, we dont know if TK its real. We onlky see people claiming that have that power. I believe that its possible to creat lab. conditions to test people, in order to catch tricks and fake people. Thats an objective thing, something that can be measured, analysed and observed.

Videos are not enough and they dont proof nothing to me.

Until people and scientists decide to observe TK, we cannot prove anything.

The best we can do its to train TK (if its real) and if its real we will prove to ourselves that TK its real.

[alexd]

Monsolith's post makes a lot of sense.

We cannot prove a lot of things that we know exist. I don't think we can really prove anything absolutely though, there isn't really such thing as proof, only levels of acceptance. So far we can't prove that our mind is real, that God is real, and that our own thoughts are real.

Its all energy though, of course we can move objects with the mind. This has been proven (or almost?) by quantum physics. I look for the answers in my heart and in my common sense. Sometimes if we look for proof in terms of our society's definition of proof we may never find it, even if it is there all along.

However, if this is the question you ask I would recommend you look at some of beavis' posts, unless you think he has set out on a plan to intelligently make everything up and fool us all it should be proof enough.


Alex

[Psan]

These days you need lots of money to prove anything.

i want anyone to post a picture or video that PROVES that they can do what they say...

I can prove you better things. Here you go -
http://www.worth1000.com/cache/gallery/contestcache.asp?contest_id=5463&display=photoshop

[Kazbadan]

That vision of the world its very subjective. We cannot belief in things just because its useful.

That kind of thought kills. If scientists thought like that they would not have invented useful things for our health, that allows us to be alive; they wouldnt have invented new technologies that we use everyday. The world would be like in XIII century.

We are live because some people decided to proof things, to start investugating the world around them with an impartial view.

If people want believe in what they want thats ok to me....until they find stupid persons saying things like "In the asteroid there is an ufo that will save us...lets commit suicide"; if people still believe in what they want just because its funny or "useful", them they mind find themselves giving money to IURD (a brasilian group that won money - much money for buying boats, cars etc- by saying to people that they are folowers of JEsus).

If people wants to believe in anything, so i must believe that there are thousands of cloned people outhere or that the world will end in 2012 or....many other things.

I am not saying that ufos, TK, AP, etc are not real but please, that kind of thought that you have its dangerous and not useful. Believing in anything  just because you want will never lead to new useful discoveries and the world will be see like in Matrix: anything can be real even if it is not. Or you must beileve that i have a green cow with 7 legs in my room and that cow can put eggs made of diamonds....

TK must be study with an open mind: we should noy believe on it at 100%. First we should see the evidences, ifs real or not. We should see what scientists that study the case with an impartial mind can say about the phenomenon. If there are not that people, we should, if we want, study it by ourselves.

But believing on it just because its funny its stupid..maybe you will find yourself training a power that does not exist "Ooooh!! SO funny....i was training and trying t learn TK for 2 years and afterall its fake! So good use i gave to my time...!!"

Get the point?

[alexd]

I get your point Kazbadan but the irony is that so much of our conventional perception of reality is based on false belief.

I like researching the occult and para-normal stuff because at the core of much of it there is an evident reality. Unfortunately something like TK will take a while to flow into mainstream science, if it ever will.

I appreciate how people search for this kind of hard evidence. However I have experienced enough to know that ones perception of reality clings entirely to beliefs, and these beliefs can change in a single moment. Therefore I have long dispelled any such words as "evidence", "real" or "true" carrying any profound meaning. This is a complete paradox in our world as most of what is claimed to be true often ends up being discredited. Science is fairly blind in this respect and I doubt it has fuelled the progress of the world near as much as imagination, wonder and belief from individuals such as Einstein.

It may just be my supposition but most people on this forum don't demand conventional means of proof for something they know by intuition to be true. I have no desire for proof, nor do I have a desire for anyone else to believe me. If they don't, that is there loss. This is my reality and I know it to be true, everyone is welcome to discover it. From my experience spiritual proof is discovery, it is personal objective experience. We don't work our asses off trying to build a proof for the Astral Plane - neither does our society make any effort to build a proof for the Physical Plane. Can you build a proof for life? Can you build a proof for God? No, but you can believe. It is what we call faith.

You can always experience, believe and understand. Some of the most important things in life cannot be proven by scientific means. It's like getting too hanged up about proving love and missing actually loving, or looking for God so hard that you do not even see what is right in front of you.

I am not disagreeing with your post, you make a valid point and have a good opinion. However I wanted to post this just to thrown in my point of view.


Alex

[Kazbadan]

I get what you say and i use the same view of the world too, it happens that sometimes i use one view, sometimes i use the othe or even both of them. My mind its "crazy".

And believe me that i am not seeking hard proofs. By now, i just want some proofs. For example, about AP, i just wan t to learn AP and see for myself if its real or not (you know, using the card test, etc).

About TK i would like to learn it and see if its real, see if it works, but TK its not like AP. If Ap its not real, that its not very important because with some luck you can have an experience in few days (i had some). AP does not take so much time and effort to learn like TK.

Besides that, if AP its not real ( i mean, its just an hallucination) your time was not wasted, because you have learned something funny. AP even if not real can be funny.

About TK its not the same: not only you have the time and efforts put into it, but also, if its not real, its not real! I mean: AP being unreal its funny, TK being unreal its useless: or you have TK or you dont.

Thats the reason that make me search for some proofs/€evidences about TK. Beavis posts are helpful for example, but i want more