Labels

[Xanth]

I just saw this and wanted to share it as it so succinctly describes my position on labels and why you shouldn't use them to define yourself or your experiences.

[Nameless]

Well said Xanth. For me the biggest problem is getting that darn sticky glue off after getting rid of the label. Meaning there is always residue...

[Stillwater]

Ok, I'll give it a shot.

I am 5'11" tall.

I am biologically male (due to having a Y chromosome). I tend to think of myself as genderless in my own self-relfections, but then that doesn't change physical reality that we are inhabiting for the moment, so the classification is still useful for interacting with others.

Aren't some labels useful, if nothing else for filing or classifying or sorting?

I know that I am more than my current experience, etc, etc; but for the moment, using those labels can have their uses, no? I know that I needn't buy toddler's shoes for myself, because they will not fit my feet.

I understand that the labels we are talking about here are probably more on an abstract level, but wouldn't the same principles apply?

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Like I said reality can be paradoxical, so it's OK to embrace both labels and no labels. Both of these have their purpose. It's best to hold everything as tentative and provisional, and because I do that I am so flexible with my beliefs. So today I may say "there is no words to describe what I just experienced." Then tomorrow I will try to put it into words so that others can start to understand what I experienced. And both are OK, labels and no labels.

Wouldn't believing in no labels label you? LOL You've already taken a stance that can be labeled. See this is why I stick with my position above. 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

At the end of the day I think I see what your trying to say which is that we shouldn't take a hard stance on our experience, or beliefs or whatever, is that right?

[Xanth]

Well said Xanth. For me the biggest problem is getting that darn sticky glue off after getting rid of the label. Meaning there is always residue...

Try this 

[Xanth]

I understand that the labels we are talking about here are probably more on an abstract level, but wouldn't the same principles apply?

It's all a matter of perspective.

Take your example on gender labels...
We tell people you should "Act like a man!" or "Act like a woman!"... when those statements are actually relatively meaningless.
The whole LGBT thing is based upon labeling and it's caused so much needless pain and suffering.  That's my point.  Act how you want to act regardless of the genitals between your legs.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

It's all a matter of perspective.

Take your example on gender labels...
We tell people you should "Act like a man!" or "Act like a woman!"... when those statements are actually relatively meaningless.
The whole LGBT thing is based upon labeling and it's caused so much needless pain and suffering.  That's my point.  Act how you want to act regardless of the genitals between your legs.

Yeah I must admit that the whole LGBT thing is having a crisis because many of them are applying way too many labels as in pronouns and expecting society to use them. And then they get their panties in a bundle when professors don't use them. Hahahaha But labels still can be useful and have a purpose.

[Stillwater]

We tell people you should "Act like a man!" or "Act like a woman!"... when those statements are actually relatively meaningless.

I agree with this. Gender roles are pretty artificial constructs, and they vary substantially across countries, which only reinforces the fact that they are fairly arbitrary. When someone says "Act like X", what they are really saying is "conform to my personal standard of views about what I want X to do".

But then the flipside bridges into Plasma's statement:

Yeah I must admit that the whole LGBT thing is having a crisis because many of them are applying way too many labels as in pronouns and expecting society to use them.

So Plasma is pointing out that there is friction between the new gender identity folks, and everyone else in society, and part of it is over pronouns. There are pretty much only 2-3 (m / f / neutral) in most languages. Why are they there? Well society by necessity, not choice, must treat male and female people differently in some circumstances. This is not a statement about individuals, so much as general rules which lead to safety and smooth functioning. Due to evolutionary differences, men and women behave differently as groups in some situations. Due to these critical differences, the labels make important distinctions. So society has an expectation that people who look one way will carry x label, and another will carry y label, to make it all easier. When people ask to step outside this naming convention, it does two things: firstly, it punishes normal people for lacking knowledge about the individual in advance, which they tend to resent; Second, it confuses; when an individual says that they are going against the general pronoun naming rules, the others now realize they don't know what expectations to have of the person. So this person looks biologically male, but they want to use a female or other pronoun? How should I interact with them? Like a female or a male? What expectations of them should I have?

[Xanth]

I was just thinking about HOW my statement should be taken... and the best way I can think of it is like this...

I operate on (let's keep this simple) two levels... there's the narrow level of this physical reality, then there's the wider level of consciousness.
When I refer to anything on this forum, I'm referring to it in terms of those two levels.

Let me use an example of what we humans label as "death".
From the wider level of consciousness, I look at death and understand it as not "death", but as a simple, permanent transition between this reality and another.  So I understand it that when someone leaves us here, they're not actually gone, and I'm mostly happy for them (depending upon circumstances) to move on.
Now... from the narrow level of this physical reality, when someone close to me "dies", I'm saddened greatly by the loss... regardless of the wider consciousness understanding I have.  While I'm a physical being, I'm subjected to the rules and limitations of this physical reality.  I miss people who will no longer be around to share our lives with.

I try to operate as much as I can from the wider level of consciousness.  That means looking beyond the physical level reasons for things and understandings from that level and operate beyond that.  Things such as physical reality labels need to be thrown aside, especially when they cause undue stress and suffering.  That doesn't mean we ditch ALL labels... you can call someone a "male" or a "female" from the narrow level and understand what it means on the wider level that it's something that needs to be moved beyond.

I hope that clarifies things more.  It's also what Adyashanti is getting at with the quote I originally posted.  It's all about what level you wish you operate from "mostly".

[Projector4life]

I have been having off and on projections since June of 2000. I can tell you that labels are necessary for people who have different types of projections. For example, I have different experiences based on the projection exit location. Read some of Robert Crookhall's projection research books that interviews many people and writes down their experiences. They are not always the same experiences. If you read them closely, you will also see the projection experience is based on the the technique used and in certain cases the exit location. The following types of questions do need answers to them.

Why does the rollout technique always lead to a dreamlike OBE with many reality fluctuations? I have never read any case nor experienced any that did not follow this rule.
Why when you exit through the top of the head you have no reality fluctuations and no dreamlike qualities?
Why when you do the rope technique or any technique that causes you to lift up, you experience some sort of vibrations?
Why when you exit from below, you go into a deep sleep with no remembrance?
Why when you focus on the third eye or blackness in front of the eyes, you end up with some sort of conscious phasing experience?
Why is it when you project inside of a dream, you feel your sense of non-physical sight become "more alive".

There are probably many more questions like the above that I do not know about yet. Now if you only experienced one type of projection, then I can see why you don't believe in labels. But I have experienced all of the above, and there are clear differences between them.

[Xanth]

Why does the rollout technique always lead to a dreamlike OBE with many reality fluctuations? I have never read any case nor experienced any that did not follow this rule.
Why when you exit through the top of the head you have no reality fluctuations and no dreamlike qualities?
Why when you do the rope technique or any technique that causes you to lift up, you experience some sort of vibrations?
Why when you exit from below, you go into a deep sleep with no remembrance?
Why when you focus on the third eye or blackness in front of the eyes, you end up with some sort of conscious phasing experience?
Why is it when you project inside of a dream, you feel your sense of non-physical sight become "more alive".

Answer to all of those: Because you believe they do.

That's what I'm trying to explain...
Perspective (belief is contained within perspective) is 100% of experience.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

But then the flipside bridges into Plasma's statement:

So Plasma is pointing out that there is friction between the new gender identity folks, and everyone else in society, and part of it is over pronouns. There are pretty much only 2-3 (m / f / neutral) in most languages. Why are they there? Well society by necessity, not choice, must treat male and female people differently in some circumstances. This is not a statement about individuals, so much as general rules which lead to safety and smooth functioning. Due to evolutionary differences, men and women behave differently as groups in some situations. Due to these critical differences, the labels make important distinctions. So society has an expectation that people who look one way will carry x label, and another will carry y label, to make it all easier. When people ask to step outside this naming convention, it does two things: firstly, it punishes normal people for lacking knowledge about the individual in advance, which they tend to resent; Second, it confuses; when an individual says that they are going against the general pronoun naming rules, the others now realize they don't know what expectations to have of the person. So this person looks biologically male, but they want to use a female or other pronoun? How should I interact with them? Like a female or a male? What expectations of them should I have?

I would say that it depends. If I've known them and they all of the sudden want to be referred to as the opposite gender yet they don't really look like the opposite gender I'll probably give them a hard time with it. But if they look like the gender they profess to be espcially from the beginning I will use that gender they chose.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Answer to all of those: Because you believe they do.

That's what I'm trying to explain...
Perspective (belief is contained within perspective) is 100% of experience.

Maybe he believes it to be that way because that is what objectively happened to him, but not because of his beliefs but because of the way the energy was stored in his body. Just theorizing here. So then he can obviously change it be releasing the tension.