question about hell

[MJ-12]

zx

[no_leaf_clover]

ahh... ok. that would explain a lot. so now i know what the original idea was..

but arent there certain branches of christianity that preach that hell IS eternal? i know ive seen pat robertson say that on the 700 club plenty of times, though he also said 9/11 was planned and carried out by pagans, gays and lesbians, so im not sure...

[goingslow]

I had the pleasure of sharing a room with a reborn christian when i was working at yellowstone national forest.

I asked the same question about god and why he would allow that...especially for eternity.

His answer was "like any good father god cant let his kids go unpunished".  So apparently its for punishment not for learning.  I still didnt see the forgiving in all of that.  I dont think its very thought out.  Maybe God just had personality quirks we just cant understand

[no_leaf_clover]

but god is perfect []

just letting someone suffer like that for all eternity is beyond a little punishment, its more along the lines of vengeance or pay back, but that just sounds a little ungodly to me after hearing about how forgiving he is.

i think the post about the greek mistranslation explains it. the texts that say hell is eternal are innaccurate versions of the greek version.

[Adrian]

Greetings no_leaf_clover!

quote:Originally posted by no_leaf_clover

keep in mind that hell is eternal, once you're there, you're there to stay, forever, according to christians.

Such is the dogma used by the church to keep their congregations faithful and under control. "Hell" was invented by christianity around 350AD at the same time they stopped teaching reincarnation. They realised that if people knew they would pass on to the Astral (sometimes known as the Afterlife)and be incarnated again, they could not retain the power over them that they could if they preached that if they were not god fearing good christian church goers they would go to "hell" for all eternity.

Of course, there is no "hell" as such. There are lower realms of the Astral that could be described as "hell like", but everyone who arrives there has the opportunity of escaping once they have learned their lessons and improved themselves to the point that the vibration and locale can no longer keep them there. They might progress to a higher realm, or more likely re-incarnate for another lifetime.

quote:
keep in mind that God is forgiving, infinitely forgiving. he's always there for you if you need him.

The Universe, which is "God" functions strictly by the immutable laws of cause and effect in perfect degree and sequence. There is no old man with a white beard on a throne surrounded by Angels singling people out for forgivness and punishment. God is perfect because the Universe is perfect in all of its spheres.

quote:
keep in mind that satan has no power over god. god owns satan.

There is no "satan" - that is another christian creation to go with "hell"

quote:

so how does hell make sense? you dont go anywhere after hell, so if you learn ANYTHING while suffering, like what its like to really suffer, you won't be able to apply it to anything later on. so therefore it isnt there for you to learn from. its there to make you suffer, to make you hurt.

Hell doesn't make sense. Those who find themselves in the lowest Astral as a result of their last life on Earth can still progress once they have sorted themselves out - although it might take hundeds or thousands of Earth years.

quote:

so why would god let you burn forever is he's infinitely forgiving? life is short.. infinitely short in the face of infinity, less than one-millionth of a blink of an eye, infinitely. surely satan isnt stopping god, since god has power over satan. is something not wrong with that? is it just me?

God does not "seek power", because "God" is omnipotent. The Universe works strictly in accordance with the immutable Universal laws of cause and effect, and, if there was a "satan", it would apply equally to "satan" just as it does for all other beings, positive or negative, darlk or light - nothing exists outside of the laws of the "All".  

quote:
how would you christians explain god letting souls suffer FOREVER when he can easily do something about it and he is infinitely forgiving. surely he knows hell isnt pleasant and that no one can like it..

Perhaps christians are so self righteous that they focus on going to "heaven" while not considering the aspects of what they believe to be the "hell" that non church goers will go to.

Ironically - very religious people go to a level of the Astral that is nearer to what they consider to be "hell" than normal, decent, non-religious type people. Very religious people arrive in what Monroe, Moen and others refer to as the "belief system territories" which I think is "focus 24". Most average, normal, decent people, will arrive at "focus 27" which is a nicer place to be than "focus 24", where in "focus 24" the residents live in their own sort of "hell", living out and trying to maintain their earthy religions.

quote:
im not trying to start anything, just wondering how people would explain this; im an atheist.

With respect, are you sure you are a true atheist - i.e. someone who does not believe in any greater power and creator, or is it that you just don't believe in the christian or other concept of "god"?

With best regards,

Adrian.

[no_leaf_clover]

yes, i am a true atheist. i do not believe any single force regulates everything in these lower dimensions. i believe there are definetely higher beings than flesh-and-blood humans, and that they could possibly affect us if it is possibly to descend the dimensions, as we cannot affect the first or second dimensions yet they are interwoven into our 3rd dimension and make up every blade of grass and human blood cell.

thanks for the history of the church and of what they've taught in the past... i'd never heard that anywhere before now. things are certainly starting to clear up.

it sounds as though your personal views played a large part of your post... though i believe in reincarnation, i dont believe that there is neccessarily something to equal out or neutralize everything else in the universe. i believe we're here to learn something from our experiences, and everything doesnt neccessarily have to balance out for us to learn.

thanks!

[Nerezza]

Adrian,

Could you give me your sources on reincarnation being an early Christian belief?

[strwrs_guru]

HELLO NO LEAF CLOVER,

    THINK ABOUT THIS ONE......GOD IS SUPPOSEDLY AAAAALLLLLLL GOOD AND NO BAD. I AM A CHRISTIAN TEETERING ON THE EDGE OF BELIEVING OR NOT BELIEVING, AND I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT THAT THE REASON FOR HELL IS TO PAY FOR SIN AND TO BE SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE HE CANNOT BE A PART OF SIN........BUUUUT DIDNT HE CREATE SIN? DIDNT HE CREATE EVERYTHING? I FEEL LIKE YOU DO. HOW CAN THIS ALL LOVING GOD I AM BEING PREACHED TO ABOUT SEND US TO HELL? WE ARE ALSO TAUGHT THAT JESUS TOOK OUR SINS UPON HIS SHOULDERS AND WE ARE FORGIVEN IN ADVANCE FOR SINS WE HAVE NOT EVEN COMMITTED YET.WELL IF THATS THE CASE, HOW CAN ANYONE BE SENT TO HELL IF WE ARE ALREADY FORGIVEN?
THESE ARE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT I AM STARTING TO HAVE REAL PROBLEMS WITH.

[no_leaf_clover]

yeah exaclty.. christianity has been really distorted over the years. people say similar things like that god can see the future and knows whether or not you're going to heaven. if that was the case, why would he even create mankind? or whay did he create men that would go to hell? there are tons of contradictions just because so many people interpret the bible so many ways, i guess.

[Nerezza]

people say similar things like that god can see the future and knows whether or not you're going to heaven. if that was the case, why would he even create mankind? or whay did he create men that would go to hell?

To understand those issues, I suggest a book on early christian thought and leaders. I recommend:

A CLOUD OF WITNESSES: AN INTRODUCTORY HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE (CS 109; Cistercian Publications, Kalamazoo, 1989).

It's short and was written by one of my professors who sort of reminds me of an old Indiana Jones.

There was a post where I and others tried to explain but whats crystal clear for me can be thick and muddy for others. Though the doctrine of predestination gave me a headache at one point too.

The secret to Christianity is to listen to Jesus, not his groupies.
With faith, everything else will fall into place.

[Nick]

Everyone,

In the years I've been around in the physical (a lot more than I care to mention) I've done a lot of reading, spiritual seeking and research. That being said, I have to say that what Adrian wrote is historically accurate regarding the christian church, and I agree with his conclusions.

Further, we are fortunate to be aware of the spiritual. Even if at the moment its' simply reading peoples' astral experiences posted at this forum. So the point is to not get caught in the web of any religious dogma and simply seek the spiritual by going within yourself.

[Spirit_Gurl]

I dont believe in satan.

[no_leaf_clover]

wow spirit, thats nice to know....

it seems to me that when you get down to it, whether or not youre christian is all a matter of whether or not you have faith in god. even with tons of contradictions and crossovers into other belief systems not usually associated with christianity, its hard to prove or disprove anything besides that there are such things in the religion. christianity is either a really accurate religion thats easily defended and has millions of people on the right track, or else a huge cult of thickheaded members with answers to everything

i should have fun finding the right path for myself []

[Psypunk]

Here is one of my many theories that I have fabricated in my quest for truth and knowledge. I thought I'd throw it out there to see what people have to say about it.  It answers the questions of God, heaven and hell.  

We exist in a time and space based existence.  We can not fathom what it is like to not exist in such a way.  When we astral project, we enter into a different form of time and space, but it is still a linear time based reality none the less.  Our minds were not made to comprehend timelessness.  
In essence, God is all of existence, not only earth, and what we perceive, but the past, present, and future all rolled into one. That is why in the Bible, He says, "I am the beginning and the end" because he IS all at the same time.  As for hell, I think that there is a possibility that life here on earth is a form of hell.  Everything is chaos here, loved ones die, pain and sorrow is prevalent, and no one TRULY has all the answers.  We spend our whole life searching, and never seem to fully understand. People seem to love conflict and strife (which is why Reality shows are so popular...no one would watch them if everyone got along just fine).  Not a single person on this earth goes with out suffering.  So what if, those who live a life that does not recognize the truth of reality (which is that reality is God) have no way of reaching the next level of consciousness when they die, and their life is repeated, giving them the chance to realize this (which would enable them to enter into the next level of consciousness)  The next level of consciousness would be that of a timeless reality in which we co-exist with all the other creatures (including animals) who have already achieved that level.  This could be called Heaven, or Nirvana, what ever you want to call it.  In the Bible it says God is omnipresent, which means that reality and all we know, is in fact God, but if we do not realize this, then there is no way that our spirit could enter into the next level of existence.  Thus causing you to live your life again in that moment of time and space (which isn't hard to believe since in a timeless reality all time happens at the exact same moment).  So maybe this is what Deja vu is.  Maybe it's us remembering stuff from a life that we lived more than once, but the first times around we didn't make the right decisions.  There will always be those who don't believe in God and who commit evil acts, and this would be the eternity of hell.  But also there would be a chance for people to get out of it by making the right decisions in this life.  The way that God tried to communicate this to us, (but it got very distorted and misperceived) is the Bible and Jesus.  God made a man that was in essence all of him and his knowledge (Jesus) to come to earth and try to give us this message, and even defeated death to prove that death wasn't the end.  But his message was misinterpreted by many and all sorts of people are lead astray.  
So when a person finally gets his or her life right (living in peace and love with self, others, and creation and realizing that it is all God, and that Jesus was God as well) then they exit this loop of reality, and enter into a timeless bliss, where all have the same understanding and consciousness level.
I obviously made some mistakes in the past (I have Deja vu all the time) but this time when I die, I'm going to be timeless)
Evolution can not be the answer because, one I haven't heard any evolutionary biologist give me a logical explanation for the human spirit.  Also evolutionists say than an incredible mass of energy and matter was compacted to the size of a period... and then it exploded, and created the universe we know now (big bang).  Then it says that from the explosion, order started to come about.  Planets aligned into systems, galaxies formed, and then all of a sudden the order became so great that atoms formed cells, and the cells formed higher life forms. Cells formed into plants, and some cells into animals, and some cells into viruses (which isn't even a cell or even considered alive and is 100% inexplainable through the theory of evolution).  Now amazingly at the same time that the order is taking place (the evolution and development of life and man) disorder starts to set in.  Death.  Once a creature becomes a live, it must die.  Flesh and blood that is not in order goes to death...disorder.  So now we have order peak off at the creation of life (a living being is absolute order and perfection.  A consciousness of being is the most order that is known in our reality), and then start to fall into disorder, ultimate disorder being the death and destruction of knowledge of being.  The universe starts spreading out and getting farther apart, suns start to die out and cease to exist, and eventually in another billion or so years, our own sun will die, as will all life on earth as we know it.  Even if a billion years down the road we are living in other galaxies and solar systems, it will only be a matter of time before those galaxies cease to exist, the constant disorder of the universe proves this.  But as we see from the cycle of life that all death is required for life.  So is the death of our universe required for the life of something else? ( Our idea of time is based on a system that we only know from a point of view of a tiny planet based in a infinite universe)  So, if death is required for life, what is the life that is created from the death of our universe, and what was destroyed for our universe to exist?  Obviously nothing can't exist, because nothing is the absence of everything (including a tiny mass of matter the size of a period...a tiny mass of matter the size of a period would have had to have come from something, because nothing begets nothing.  So if the law of nature says that life comes from death, goes to death, and becomes life (life lives on life).  We can not survive unless we cause the death of another living being), that must mean that our life (existence of the universe) came from a death.  But the way that they say existence started isn't from nothing, but from a something, which means that there can't be any such thing as nothing because nothing is an impossibility.  All of reality as we know it will die in order to make way for a new creation.  The process of evolution explains this easily in the way they say we went from disorder to order and then back to disorder.  The only logical thing to say is that at the end of the disorder, order is awaiting in a form of reality that we can't even imagine.  We can't imagine it because we are on a physical, limited level of existence.  Our minds can't comprehend ideas like infinity and the possibility of something created from nothing.  Once we get through this disorder stage and get back to order we will see the truth of reality and existence as clearly as ever.  That reality only makes sense if there was an original intelligent creator to start the whole process (because I already showed that our inability to imagine infinity is proof of our lack of knowledge and faith in a creator).  Obviously since we can not even completely grasp the idea of infinity, that is proof that there is a God that had to start it all, but in reality never started it because there is no start or end in timelessness.  Where consciousness begins, there has to be a ultimate final consciousness of all reality and existence.  That final consciousness would have to be a all intelligent, all knowing, all present being.  Reality is in fact this being.  He is everything that is in the heavens and beyond, he is the earth, he is life, he controls death.  With out acknowledging this God, there is no way that one would be able to reach the final level of reality.  The reality being that you completely understood the awesomeness and unity and perfection of God, and that the best way he told us about his existence was related to us in the form of religion.  He inspired men by using his awesome power, to write the bible as a record of his being (in the most simplest terms that man would understand since we are on such a lower level of existence).  These recordings of reality were given to us in the form of the Bible.  Jesus was the existence of God and reality put into a infinitely perfect flesh form, a form on the same level on consciousness that we were, on in that he was perfect since he was and is God.  Is is because of this that he was able to control every single aspect of nature and reality.  He defied all the rules of nature.  He walked on water, he healed the sick...there wasn't anything he couldn't do.  He even rose from the dead.  He defied the ultimate rule of the universe.  He defied death, and by coming back to life, gave us a way to realize his existence by his own breaking of the ultimate rule.  The rule that once something dies it is dead to that consciousness level and can not return to the previous form of existence.  But Jesus did.  Once he defeated death and the entire structure of the universe was thrown in reverse.  BY doing this, he made a way for us to reach the same level of conscious existence as him.  And be made on with perfect existence for all eternity...no wondering what lay beyond the grave, because there would be no such thing as a grave.  No such thing as death.  Ultimate perfection and paradise and unity for a single, yet infinite moment that is reality in a past, present and future state, all at the exact same time.  (For those who say that Jesus was a good man, but he was not God, I say:  Either he was the son of god or he was a raving lunatic, a good man doesn't claim to be the son of God if he isn't...only a crazy person would do that)
A eternal rejection and separation of God and the truth about reality is in and of itself a hell.  A person's pain and suffering will never end as long as they choose not to realize the existence of a perfect God.   Once they realize this, then they will enter into paradise.  
So does this mean that eventually everyone will make it to heaven?  Nope!  Sorry to say, but if a person never realizes the truth about reality, they will continue to live in disbelief.  And there will always be plenty of people to spread around disbelief.  Why?  Because the entire cycle of life and reality depends on the life and death of something, so these beings that are constantly living and dying are what keeps hell as an eternity.  Because there will never be a perfect understanding that is shared with all creatures in existence in a timeless infinite reality.  Basically this shows that all of evolution's theories about the creation and death of life is completely false, and part of the reality that there will always be people believing that there is no God.  And as long as those people exist...there will be a hell, in one form of spirituality or another.  As long as you realize the truth of the reality of God, you know you are safe from this eternal hell.  So, this way, God is all loving and he doesn't send people to hell...people keep themselves in hell by refusing to believe in Him.

Well, I guess I got a bit carried away there.   Does anyone think this makes sense at all?

[strwrs_guru]

holy crap psypunk.[:O][:O]i want to respond but youll have to give me awhile on this one.

[Psypunk]

By the way, I'm not trying to start a creation vs evolution argument  I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong, and I am right.  I'm simply stating thoughts.  I know I could be wrong, this is why I accept everyone regardless of how differant their personal beliefs are from mine. I'm also very open to others opinions on reality and the reason for being.  I love studying different religions, (especially Eastern ones) and philosophies, and I am very open minded and non-judgmental, so don't think that the last post is a "REPENT YOU EVIL BASTARDS!" type thing...I'm not a Bible thumper in any way.  I let people believe what they want, and it doesn't bother me (unless that believe hurts others...which is one large problem with many organized religions...but I won't get into bashing organized religion right now...I'll save that for later []

[strwrs_guru]

all i can say is WOW!!!!!that is very well thought out and if you dont mind, i am going to use some of that in my other "debates" with friends of mine. thanks for your thoughts.i thought i was going to say something long and detailed, but after reading your input, again, all i can say is WOW!!!!!

[simkiller]

strwrs_guru i agree with you WOW!!!!!

Psypunk that is very good i like your idea of Hell being here on earth i actually had that exact same thought it was so freaky as i read your theory how close alot of your ideas were to some of mine.

so yeah WOW!!!

[no_leaf_clover]

i just skimmed over that whole thing as i have other things to do and its really intimidating in size.. but if hell was here on earth, we wouldnt be threatened with it as a punishment after death unless reincarnation came into play.

as far as the big bang theory, the only thing that it explains is why the universe is expanding outwards. the universe was one extremely hot compact, invisible ball because of all the gravity, like a really souped-up black hole, and then it exploded, forcing all matter outwards in all directions.

the question is: where does matter come from? why is it here? why are we here? the big bang theory doesnt have anything to do with those questions, only why we're moving away from other star systems.

as for evolution and the human spirit, have you read any books by zecharia sitchin, psypunk? sitchin is a hebrew scholar that uses masses of evidence to prove that we are both evolved from monkeys and descended of the gods, because the gods took an ape and molded a human out of it, or technically speaking, an ape's genes were spliced with genes of an alien race, and we were originally created to work for those aliens, but we eventually gained intelligence through one of the gods sort of betraying the others (garden of eden situation) and then it started a whole chain reaction of ancient, biblical events. even if it sounds far-fetched from me, sitchin uses so much evidence he makes it sound completely plausible, which it really is when you think about. the aliens had spirits as they were developing beyond the third dimension.

ill be back later to post some more... ive got to check my mail and such. see if mozart's requiem has been posted yet, cant wait to arrange and start sequencing it []

[no_leaf_clover]

ah.. like i said, i just skimmed over your post. i went back and read through it and i just sort of repeated some of the things you said, so i guess i cant argue much []

your ideas sure are different... i noticed a few minor things that dont matter much, like the fact that the original buddhists did not believe the buddha himself was a god but a teacher, therefore not believing in a god and not being able to recognize such. and also, the buddha is still being reincarnated supposively, meaning that he has not yet passed on to that next conscious level that you described, so nirvana could not have anything to do with that next spiritual level, should it exist. personally, i believe buddha reached a higher dimension through meditation that robert bruce himself reached and described in astral dynamics.. the realm that was pure white light that robert described as a healing place for the soul.

but to clear that out of your beliefs you would just drop the connections you make to buddhism and nirvana.

as far as time... i'm one of those people who believe that NOTHING is beyond human comprehension, its what seperates us from the animals, we have higher spiritual selves that allow us to eventually comprehend such things as we ascend.

robert bruce has even described places where time either does not exist or is otherwise extremely distorted to the point of having very little effect! so thats a good sign that timelessness is indeed within our comprehension. it seems to me that time is an illusion, like is commonly said. time is only here to divide up which lives live when on earth. when you are reincarnated for example, or as i believe, living your other lives at the same time, kind of parallel, you dont neccessarily have to live your later lives in the future, if there are such things as later lives.

ill half to read the second half of your post later... heh.. o.O.. big post..

[MeZergy]

Sometime in the future Satan will be no more! So, what I think, is that everyone in hell will go to heaven! If I'm wrong... You won't know!

[no_leaf_clover]

lol... thats true []

[no_leaf_clover]

keep in mind that hell is eternal, once you're there, you're there to stay, forever, according to christians.

keep in mind that God is forgiving, infinitely forgiving. he's always there for you if you need him.

keep in mind that satan has no power over god. god owns satan.

so how does hell make sense? you dont go anywhere after hell, so if you learn ANYTHING while suffering, like what its like to really suffer, you won't be able to apply it to anything later on. so therefore it isnt there for you to learn from. its there to make you suffer, to make you hurt.

so why would god let you burn forever is he's infinitely forgiving? life is short.. infinitely short in the face of infinity, less than one-millionth of a blink of an eye, infinitely. surely satan isnt stopping god, since god has power over satan. is something not wrong with that? is it just me?

how would you christians explain god letting souls suffer FOREVER when he can easily do something about it and he is infinitely forgiving. surely he knows hell isnt pleasant and that no one can like it..

im not trying to start anything, just wondering how people would explain this; im an atheist.