what a moving post, I read it all and it really makes you think. Every country has its negative points (mostly attributed to their governments!) but when people get wrapped up in bad points they will more than likely forget the good.
So how do these 14,112 (statistic from 1999) killers collect that reward for bumping off their victims? Even with the numbers going down some, there must be thousands of americans getting bumped off every year and hundreds every month. How many murders have there been today?
http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/te061301agm.htm
From "TESTIMONY OF ANDREW G. MCBRIDE BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTION, FEDERALISM AND PROPERTY RIGHTS June 13, 2001 RACE AND THE FEDERAL DEATH PENALTY"
"I would ask the Subcommittee to keep four points in mind as it evaluates these very serious, but, in my opinion, wholly unsupported charges. First, pointing to statistical disparities between racial percentages of capital defendants and racial percentages in the population at large is utterly specious. The population at large does not commit violent felonies – only a small percentage of both the white and non-white communities are ever involved in violent crime. The sad fact is that non-whites are statistically much more likely to commit certain crimes of violence that might lead to death penalty prosecutions. African Americans make up approximately 13 percent of the nation's population. Yet, according to the FBI's 1999 uniform crime reports, there were 14,112 murder offendersin the United States in 1999, and of those offenders for whom race was known, 50 percent were black. Given that most murders are intra-racial, it is not surprising that of the 12,658 murder victims in 1999, 47 percent were black."
zx
America's a great country sure, but like all governments, its one is starting to reveal its sure-as-daylight corruptedness. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and who has the most weapons of mass destruction? Who tore NATO apart? I don't hate America, it's one of the most logical and best countries there is. But the way their government acts is annoying. They make their people believe that America is the one and only country, the only power that has the right to have power, the only place that can control. They are basically policing the world.
Sorry, ranting again.
America's great, but its government and its army are sometimes so conceited I feel like puking
Just my opinion
Don't hate me.
I think, therefore I am [:)]
Later
-FT
My problem with this country is its disposable mainstream culture. All the things I used to be into are somewhat mainstream now. They take everything that is sacred and market it and turn it into nothing more than a product to satisfy the whimsical cravings of ignorant people.
I also dislike the government right now- When a guy that isn't really our president gets some strings pulled to get into office, and is able to succeed, something should be done about the conditions that have allowed this to happen. I also agree with what Fat Turkey said. However, I am totally against the whole reward for killing an American thing. Or any other kind of violence for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior
What is an American?
You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was
actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.
That's hardly news as the average Pakistani earns about as much in a year as the average American makes in a day (if they are lucky). Perhaps if you were to actually visit these kinds of places and see how these people live....
quote:
An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by the Soviet army twenty years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country. As of the morning of September 11, 2001, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.
This is getting rather sicky-bucket.
quote:
Americans welcome the best -- the best products, the best books, the
>best music, the best food, the best athletes.
Yes, I agree. But I rather think the 2nd and 3rd world view is you do that entirely at their expense.
quote:
But they also welcome the least.
As long as they are not Mexicans skipping border controls. :)
quote:
The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest-tossed. These, in fact, are the people who built America.
Well, next time I'm suffering loss of sleep over how to pay my monthly bills I'll just turn up on your doorstep and all will be well. Cheers mate!
quote:
Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least thirty other countries, cultures, and first languages -- including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.
So the forthcoming bombs you are about to land on those innocent Iraqi people don't count, I suppose.
quote:
because Americans are not a particular people from a
particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit and
freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.
I think the people in question whom you are against think otherwise. Moreover, I fear your country has not heard the last of this "war".
Yours,
Frank
But the Pakistanis are our "friends." Everyone says so, especially their military ruler. These are the very same people who were dancing in the streets while my American brothers and sisters were jumping out of windows and being burned or crushed to death. These are the very same people who will be getting billions of American tax dollars to -- that is, whatever is left after their leaders squirrel away most of it someplace.
I am most appreciative of messages that show there is at least one person who doesn't hate Americans right now. Most of what we hear in our news media tells us the rest of the world does hate us.
I am not at all certain of the coming war with Iraq. Something doesn't seem right with it. I don't know why now. I would prefer that the USA were completely out of the middle east and all other countries and let them settle their own problems or live with them as they can. But clearly, a war is coming. It is, however, the aftermath of it that I fear. It will be even more open season on any American anywhere than it is now.
As a nation, I do not think we are always right, but I don't think we can afford to be wrong about this. I certainly hope that the rest of the world does not feel the way the reward offerers do. As for me, I won't be traveling outside the USA this year. Why make myself a target for people like these?
Thanks for listening - Peace to everyone.
" Most of what we hear in our news media tells us the rest of the world does hate us. "
We don't hate americans!! I think only a misguided few do. We hate your government.....
The same misconception is made in Muslim countries - they say "why do you hate us?" " we DON'T hate you!" "so why do you bomb us - you live in a democracy?". Its just a big damn game of pitching one site against the other, making out that the other hates you so you are justified in hating them back. Ggggrrrrr. Unite!!!
America could have been out of the middle east 50 years ago, if they hadn't have suppressed free evergy technology. Oil provides a useful choke point for control and money gathering purposes. And arms etc etc
and hey!! I'm not an American. I am English, but I appreciate the offer hehe!
peace
Rob
quote:
Originally posted by Jenadots
But the Pakistanis are our "friends." Everyone says so, especially their military ruler. These are the very same people who were dancing in the streets while my American brothers and sisters were jumping out of windows and being burned or crushed to death.
The reason why these people are *so* glad when they see American lives suffering a horrid death, is because their societies have to live with such horror often on a daily basis... and they blame you for that.
quote:
These are the very same people who will be getting billions of American tax dollars to -- that is, whatever is left after their leaders squirrel away most of it someplace.
And the reason why your so-called tax-dollars never get to the people in question is because normally the Dictator that "squirrels it away" is a puppet of the United States' government. And those poor people in question are rapidly beginning to realise that. Hence the reason why a significant portion of them think the only good American, is a dead American.
quote:
I am most appreciative of messages that show there is at least one person who doesn't hate Americans right now. Most of what we hear in our news media tells us the rest of the world does hate us.
In terms of population you are but a tiny minority.
quote:
I am not at all certain of the coming war with Iraq. Something doesn't seem right with it. I don't know why now. I would prefer that the USA were completely out of the middle east and all other countries and let them settle their own problems or live with them as they can.
But you cannot, because your economic superiority relies on a plentiful flow of cheap oil.
quote:
But clearly, a war is coming. It is, however, the aftermath of it that I fear. It will be even more open season on any American anywhere than it is now.
Well, it is not so much a "war" as you are going to attack another country in order to plunder its oil reserves. It is a fact there are those factions who bitterly resent such a policy who will stop at nothing to seek revenge for your actions. Decades ago, such factions were an insignificant minority. Nowadays, they have the power to bomb buildings in New York. Who knows what capability they will develop in the future?
quote:
As a nation, I do not think we are always right, but I don't think we can afford to be wrong about this. I certainly hope that the rest of the world does not feel the way the reward offerers do. As for me, I won't be traveling outside the USA this year. Why make myself a target for people like these?
Your policy has been "wrong" from the start. Fact is, millions of ordinary people are demonstrating against this up and coming attack. I pray I'm wrong but it seems you won't get it into your heads unless a big bomb goes off somewhere on your shores.
You know, the twin-towers incident was a warning as to what is to come IF you don't listen. And you're not. You are *still* playing that same old game. The time to eat humble pie has long-since past.
Yours,
Frank
Democracy, the only form of government I actually half-believed in, has failed me, ever since Bush was "elected" president. I am now an anarchist. However, I do not believe in chaos. There is a Buddhist philosophy of self-government, which is what we need to learn how to do. If we could get all these damn corporations out of the way, the government would not have so much power. The only reason they have any power is because of the fact that people (at least in the USA) worship money. We are the cause of our own death. The terrorists were wrong to kill innocent people, but I think that their message was clear enough. They are misguided. They think that all of us are bad. It is our government that is evil, and it IS. Does anyone here know about chemtrails? That's just one of the things they do to us. There are many things they use their citizens as guinea pigs for. Well, I don't know about you, but I trust nobody. Those who fit into our society well tend to be closed-minded and judgemental of anything that is different from what they believe in. They promote a life of ignorance and selfishness. I am totally an anti-republican. I hate the republican ideals. They are so stupid. My bodily waste has more meaning than their ideals. And democrats tend to sit there and point their finger at everyone, but don't offer any suggestions or solutions to the problems. I cannot speak for any other country's government but I don't like mine. Not at all. They must be stopped.
asc
I do hope we are seeing the beginning of the end of Saddam Hussein.
Also, I do hope we are seeing the beginning of the end of right-wing fundamentalism as a global power.
Klaus Seigel
quote:
Originally posted by Frank
The reason why these people are *so* glad when they see American lives suffering a horrid death, is because their societies have to live with such horror often on a daily basis... and they blame you for that.
Yes, victimization is common in the world and even here in the States.
quote:
And the reason why your so-called tax-dollars never get to the people in question is because normally the Dictator that "squirrels it away" is a puppet of the United States' government. And those poor people in question are rapidly beginning to realise that. Hence the reason why a significant portion of them think the only good American, is a dead American.
I halfway agree here. At the same time most of these people absolutely love the American culture, such as movies and music.
quote:
But you cannot, because your economic superiority relies on a plentiful flow of cheap oil.
Yes, but there is plentiful oil still in the U.S. Right now many oil companines want to begin drilling in Alaska, and the natives in Alaska do want them to for economoical development. They estimate the reserves in one area to be good for 12-20 years. There is also untapped oil still in Texas, New Mexico, and I believe also Colorado and Wyoming. You are assuming alot here to say that we are only after the oil.
quote:
But clearly, a war is coming. It is, however, the aftermath of it that I fear. It will be even more open season on any American anywhere than it is now.
quote:
Nowadays, they have the power to bomb buildings in New York. Who knows what capability they will develop in the future?
Hence, the war on terrorism.
quote:
Your policy has been "wrong" from the start. Fact is, millions of ordinary people are demonstrating against this up and coming attack. I pray I'm wrong but it seems you won't get it into your heads unless a big bomb goes off somewhere on your shores.
Hold on, you want us to accept and respect the authority of a few radical Muslims who want to destroy the 'western devil'?
quote:
You know, the twin-towers incident was a warning as to what is to come IF you don't listen. And you're not. You are *still* playing that same old game. The time to eat humble pie has long-since past.
Listen to what? We ourselves are about to make our wakeup call to the rest of the world.
Okay, you are not attacking Iraq to plunder its oil reserves. So I'll pop off and have a frontal-lobotomy, which should give you plenty of time to write down why it is, exactly, you are about to attack Iraq. Then we can discuss this matter further. :)
Joking aside, pray tell, why *are* you then about to attack Iraq?
Also, I know it has proved to be a catchy phrase, especially amongst people in the USA (if the opinion-polls are to be believed) but don't you think, "war against terror" is rather a glaring contradiction in terms?
And no sane person in the world is calling upon the US government to accept the authority of people you call, "radical muslims." But what millions of people are currently demonstrating against, is your country acting outside the auspices of the United Nations assembly.
The potential for such action has led many free-thinking people to question the international legality of such a possible future situation. Which naturally leads these people to further ask themselves who, exactly, would be the "terrorists" in that regard... if not the USA themselves.
Yours,
Frank
"Yes, but there is plentiful oil still in the U.S. Right now many oil companines want to begin drilling in Alaska, and the natives in Alaska do want them to for economoical development. They estimate the reserves in one area to be good for 12-20 years. There is also untapped oil still in Texas, New Mexico, and I believe also Colorado and Wyoming. You are assuming alot here to say that we are only after the oil."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the reason that these places have not been drilled already, because the oil isn't as easy to get to as it is in, say, Iraq? The oil-men who direct your government will be thinking in terms of *profit*.
There is also a large mass of oil next to the falkland islands, which even has the 2nd purest content anywhere in the world. But, it is very deep, so as of yet, there hasn't been a rush to drill it.
Although, of course, the other reason you are going to war with Iraq, is to divert home attention away from your failing economy, caused by Dubya. A classic tactic, used by countless polical leaders. Ironic, since it eats up even more government spending.
Rob
Dear Frank,
Your hatred and frustration is showing. The USA has done some right things and some wrong things - like every other nation. I may not get the Saddam thing but I do get the terrorists and I have a big problem with anyone who claims to be killing -- or even speaking - for God, however they define him.
The world is changing, and somehow, out of this turmoil, bitterness, war, life and death, there may be a better one with a different balance of power. I certainly hope so as I would prefer my country to abandon all foreign treaties and become Switzerland -- totally neutral except for humanitarian aid during natural disasters. I don't think that is very likely to happen, but it would be intesting to see just who gets blamed for almost every problem that exists in some countries.
I realize that most of the people who hate my country are taught to do so. It is certainly easier for their dictators -- and in some cases, religious clerics -- to tell them that America is the reason their lives are so miserable and poverty ridden. That is certainly easier for them than actually having to do something for their own people and to actually share the wealth of their own nations. The common people know it is safe to riot in the streets against the USA just as they know how short their lives would be if they turned that passion against their dictators.
I know that billions of people in the world are suffering and do not understand us in the USA any more than we understand them. It may be generations before that changes. But I refuse to accept your implication that we in the USA somehow "deserve" to die in terrorist attacks and have it coming to us. We don't. Nobody deserves that. It might be human nature to want to watch the powerful fall -- we all secretly relish it a bit. There currently is a lot of that to go around. Fine, we can take it.
Most of us would gladly eat the biggest humble pie anyone cares to give us if it would bring back all the lives lost in terrorist attacks here and around the world.
Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me .... one of my favorite songs. Unfortunately, it is not always easy to live up to the idea.
Greetings everyone,
The main problem with this entire war issue is that everyone knows that the
real reason America and the UK wants to invade Iraq is
not for this totally erroneous reason of Saddam allegedely owning "weapons of mass destruction". Some real reasons might include:
1) They want/need Iraq's oil. Bush stated that only those that help with the invasion of Iraq will get to share in its oil reserves.
2) Resentment at not having finished Saddam off in the gulf war. That has been irking people in the USA for years, particularly Colin Powell who was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff during that era. This so called conflict has
all of the hallmarks of a personal vendetta and perceived unfinished business.
3) People just don't like Saddam [:)]
There are
many countries in the world with weapons of mass destruction - e.g. N.Korea, India, Pakistan, Russia, and oh yes, the USA and Britain. Why are not the USA wanting to disarm all of these countries? What right does the USA and UK have to own these weapons and not anyone else? Is Bush more stable than other country leaders?
I realise of course that the UK is aiding and abetting the USA in all of this - I am looking at this from a totally objective perspective.
But where will this all end? Both Bush and Blair are going against the wishes of the people that elected them. They are also submitting resolutions to the UN saying "you might as well vote for this, because if you don't or if you veto it, we ill invade Iraq anyway" The UN exists to maintain balance in the world - not to be a rubber stamp for Bush's latest jingoism and sabre rattling.
The fact is, the USA, UK and a very few allies are intent on launching
pro-active aggression. against the wishes of the majority of the world/UN, that is no different to Iraq invading Kuwait, or any country invading any other country. This is not a defensive action where an aggressor is being repelled, it is rather pre-emptive and overt hostility against another country. Sure, people don't like the way Saddam rules his country, but you can say that about numerous countries in the world - the answer is not to invade them.
The communist system more or less collapsed overnight of its own accord due to the power of the people at the final analysis. The way to assist the people of Iraq and similar countries is to send energy and other
subtle influences that they might use their own
freewillto determine their own destinies.
BTW Peaceful Warrior, with regards to your comment:
quote:
Americans welcome the best -- the best products, the best books, the
>best music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the least. The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest-tossed.
Let me assure you from my own experience that this is not the case! It is
extremely difficult to gain access to live in the USA if you are British for example - I know because I looked into it some years back. The only relatively certain way is to hire an immigration lawyer at some huge expense, and to invest $500K in setting up a business to employ USA citizens. It is as good as impossible to take the decision to go live in the USA and simply move there. The INS most assuredly does not welcome
anyone that I can determine, and goes about making life as difficult as possible for those that want to move to the USA. All that notwithstanding that the USA has among the lowest densities of populations in the civilised world, and is occupying captured land that originally obtained by invading that continent at the considerable and ongoing expense of the native Americans who owned it and whos's rightful home is is, and now live on "reservations". Some People have very short, convenient and selective memories.
Don't get me wrong, I have numerous friends in the USA, but I felt that I had to put many things into some sort of perspective.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Jenadots: To associate me with emotions such as hatred and frustration is as much a contradiction as the notion that war can be in any way against terror.
Moreover, I have never said nor implied that Americans deserve to die. I merely observe there are fairly large numbers of people in certain countries who do, rather unfortunately in my view, believe the only good American is a dead one. In any event, my 20-odd years of obe study has taught me that there is no death. So from my own standpoint I now find it rather peculiar to think and talk about the subject of death, in mainstream terms.
On the subject of zealots and God, perhaps I might suggest you count the times American leaders have used (and no-doubt will continue to use) the word "God" when speaking in public. And you are very right, the world *is* changing. Well, the signs are there, let's say. I'm impressed, for example, at how so many young people are protesting against this latest attack. Not only that, I was amazed at the high number of people who joined the demonstrations in London a few weeks ago, who openly admitted they were not normally demonstration-minded people. For many of them, it was the first ever time they had done such a thing. In the papers this morning comes the welcome news that even some members of the ruling Labour-party in the UK are threatening to resign, if this attack goes ahead without a clear UN resolution to that effect.
So yes, maybe things truly are set to change. Perhaps instead of continually "fighting for peace" the human race is finally realising that peace will simply come about if we would just stop fighting each other. You say, quite rightly, that a significant number of people who hate Americans are taught to do so (and often from a very early age, I note). But if more and more American people were to have a serious think about why that is, then I do feel more of you would see where longer-term observers, like myself, were coming from.
The CNN shot that always sticks in my mind was the one where an American lady, totally distraught, kept crying out, "Why do they hate us". While I am not devoid of sympathy for her plight, I do rather feel the answer to that question is fairly obvious.
Watching events unfold on television, I could but shake my head in despair at the sheer horror those trapped people must have been feeling. I posted about this early last year saying imagine being faced with a choice of either burning to death, or death by flinging yourself out of the window. And all that death and destruction in such a short space of time, in such a small area too. Think of the humungous sense of shock that caused.
But when you step back and think about it, it's only what? Just two cruise-missiles' worth of destruction. The same cruise missiles you have sent in their thousands in order to destroy buildings and bridges, and so forth, in other countries (for whatever reason or another).
To my mind, as much as I would disagree with the methodology of the people behind it, I cannot help but think the events of September 11th gave a perfect demonstration of the severe extent of human suffering - not to mention the instant and devastating destruction - that can come about when these missiles strike.
Yours,
Frank
Hi Frank,
quote:
Originally posted by Frank
Joking aside, pray tell, why *are* you then about to attack Iraq?
For one, he has promoted suicide bombings by paying the families of the suicide bombers who will attack any Israeli or American. Secondly, is their past and what the public may not know about. For example, back before the first war started Saddam had counterfeited I forget how many billions of dollars. This money was one day off before entering into the black market. Thankfully we bombed them the night before (It was actually one of the first bombs drooped where they were printing it.). Because of an example like this how do you we not know they are doing anything similar or just as candid? Especially when you have a dictator armed by France who has demonstrated his want for conquest of the region. When do you cut off the inspections when they have gone on for twelve years?
quote:
Also, I know it has proved to be a catchy phrase, especially amongst people in the USA (if the opinion-polls are to be believed) but don't you think, "war against terror" is rather a glaring contradiction in terms?
Why would you assume that the opinion polls are fraudulent? How is it a contradiction in terms?
quote:
And no sane person in the world is calling upon the US government to accept the authority of people you call, "radical muslims." But what millions of people are currently demonstrating against, is your country acting outside the auspices of the United Nations assembly.
Ahh yes, the UN, what a joke. First, we went against the UN when we went over to the Balkan Islands, where were all of the protestors then? Second, these protestors should be looking a closer eye at Russia and their little coup with Chechnya, France with western Africa, and China with their horrible human rights record and their policy on Taiwan. It is also interesting that Chirac and Saddam go back to the disco days. There are two different conflicts of interest in the security council with France and Russia therefore many Americans see the UN as a joke.
Hi Inguma,
quote:
Originally posted by Inguma
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the reason that these places have not been drilled already, because the oil isn't as easy to get to as it is in, say, Iraq? The oil-men who direct your government will be thinking in terms of *profit*.
Yes, I agree, however this war is not about oil. I do think that a brief rise in the economy will happen if Iraq is transformed with a new government and has newly arranged infrastructure. I do not doubt at all that this factors in.
quote:
Although, of course, the other reason you are going to war with Iraq, is to divert home attention away from your failing economy, caused by Dubya. A classic tactic, used by countless polical leaders. Ironic, since it eats up even more government spending.
No, the economy started going down when slick Willy was in office and all of the dishonesty in the big corporate companies. However, Bush is certainly not making the economy any better.
Greetings BDHugh,
quote:
Originally posted by BDHugh
Ahh yes, the UN, what a joke. First, we went against the UN when we went over to the Balkan Islands, where were all of the protestors then? Second, these protestors should be looking a closer eye at Russia and their little coup with Chechnya, France with western Africa, and China with their horrible human rights record and their policy on Taiwan. It is also interesting that Chirac and Saddam go back to the disco days. There are two different conflicts of interest in the security council with France and Russia therefore many Americans see the UN as a joke.
The USA only sees the UN as a joke because it suits them to do do. If they actually bothered to respect the UN resolutions in which they vote, then they would not be able to go around with mega-billions of dollars of war machinery as if they are the worlds de-facto police force.
If they are so concerned about the world, why do they not spend those billions or trillions of doallrs in assisting the countries that really need it, and thereby
saving countless lives and all of that human misery and suffering?
This is not about helping the world at all, otherwise it would be done in accordance with the wishes of the world via the UN. This is rather a demonstration of power by political leaders for their own gain, while manipulating the support of the US population.
The most damning aspect of the US led action is the fact that as I said before, there are numerous countries who are involved in terrorism, and others that have massive stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Korea is blatently testing them even now, and that country can hardly be regarded as trustworthy to say the least. Why hasn't the USA sent a fleet and an army over there slinging, cruise missiles at them until they "disarm". If they are going to use human rights as an excuse, again, there are many other countries to choose from as indeed there are with undemocratic, corrupt governments.
If you look at this situation, the target, etc. - it all stems from the gulf war. Colin Powell et al have unfinished business and a need for oil as a bonus, and they intend to finish it regardless.
I dissaprove of the humanitarian problems in Iraq, but the main issue is so called "weapons of mass destruction", which have yet to be even proven.
As I said, I am not anti-American at all, quite the contrary, I have many friends there, but this situation is extremely dangerous in my opinion. The fact that so many people are against it, even people that were not against other situations such as the gulf war, should say something in no uncertain terms. I have never witnessed such anti-feeling against actions such as this, and humanity is being infuenced not to do it. If the USA proceed against the UN, they are going against such countries as Russia and China - both very powerful countries that most assuredly do have many weapons of mass destruction.
Bush is a seriously worrying person. He appears to be totally vacant for much of the time, and is unquestionably under the influence of the dark forces. That is how the dark forces operate - to use powerful world leaders as instruments of fear, hate and destruction.
Finally I have to agree with Frank - any country that pre-emptively invades Iraq against the express approval of the
United Nations who represent global stability, are terrorists themselves, no matter how they try to justify, or put gloss and decorations on it.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Hi All -
How much oil does Iraq really have? It was my impression that Saddam's effort to take over Kuwait was ostensibly about regaining Iraq's historical national boundaries. However, the nation of Kuwait is blessed with extremely rich oil reserves and access to sea harbors. I am not sure about this information - I suppose it could be looked up and varified. The bottom line contention of this line of thought is that Iraq isn't really possessed of great natural oil resources in comparison with its neighbor. From the USA's point of view, perhaps what Iraq does possess is central Middle East geography coupled with being unbuyable for numberous reasons.
Another interesting thing is that W Bush has stated that Saddam had attempted to have Bush senior assassinated. I could speculate forever about what sort of vendetta that sets up in W Bush's mind. I also wonder about the displacement of attitudes toward Osama onto Saddam, not only in the administration's mind, but also in the collective mind of the American public.
I truly am not convinced that Saddam's arsonal is what it is characterized as being. If he is a player in aiding and abetting terrorists I haven't seen the evidence.
I think that posters here are giving US opinion polls too much credit, while at the same time, tarring individual US citizens with the brush of their government's actions. Opinion polls are statistical instruments and statistics is a science with outcomes of measurement that can be biased according to how questions are worded, ordered, and how the sampling was conducted. In truth, there are a lot of people in the US who do support the war on Iraq even without attaching it to "war on terrorism" - my gut instinct on some of those people is that their collective voice would be well summed up by saying: I have not been truly touched by war, I am not a "citizen of the world," and I am vicariously proud of being an American - a citizen of a country that can kick the world's butt if it wanted to. However, there are a lot of people here who don't support this war effort. Our media underplays the protests. Part of the problem too is that the voice of protest has come late in the course of events. I think that if we watch, we will see American protests on American soil become more prevelent and organized.
What Bush can't do at this point is back down without loosing face. I think his personal psychology might require a "legitimate" avenue of escape.... that is to say, for him it will have to be the honorable and right thing to do as he understands those terms. I can't envision the turn of events that would set up opportunity for him to get his value and character set behind not going to war and still look like a strong value-based leader of a great nation.
KB
My question still has not been answered about how to go about claiming the reward for killing any american. Considering how common murder and suicide are and setting aside accidental deaths, it seems to me that at least one claim could be made. "Anyone" includes americans killing other americans. If no one else, the famous "american taliban" whose name is something like John Walker should be able to claim the prize.
"For example, back before the first war started Saddam had counterfeited I forget how many billions of dollars. This money was one day off before entering into the black market"
I believe the reason he did this was because Bush had just wripped him off to the tune of similar amounts. It was, on his part, a very sly move. The guy has cunning, I'll give him that. Even if he is a monster.
"How much oil does Iraq really have?"
What were the estimates, between 10-30% of available world resources? I could be wrong.
"Yes, I agree, however this war is not about oil. I do think that a brief rise in the economy will happen if Iraq is transformed with a new government and has newly arranged infrastructure. I do not doubt at all that this factors in."
You president is a Texan oil man!! Your vice president, too has massive connections to the oil cartel!! Infact, much of your govenment is in a similar position, and there are glaring contradictions of interest. Who do you think funded Bush to get into power?
"war on terror" is a contradiction because war itself is an act of terror. This phrase is therefore reminscent of trying to put out a fire by throwing napalm at it. The only way this might work, would be if the fire were to simply explode and destroy itself. Should we pray that that is, or is not, the case? This fire is going to burn for a loong time otherwise.
"For one, he has promoted suicide bombings by paying the families of the suicide bombers who will attack any Israeli or American"
I don't really think this is not based in any factual evidence. You can be sure that, if it were true, it would be spread all over the news by now. Didn't they all come out the closet the other day (yesterday?) and admit that he really does have no links to terrorism? Saddams regime is opposed to Islamic fundamentalism anyway. Too much of a threat to him.
Anyway, all this back-and-forthing - has it actually affected the views of any of you good posters out there? I would be very interested to hear if anyones opinions have been swayed. I suspect, that most peoples minds are already made up.
All the best
Rob
People may choose to believe this "war" is not about oil. I say "war" but millions of free-thinking people are looking at the facts, as they stand today, and coming to the conclusion that what is said to become is merely an out-and-out attack.
But whichever way you look at it, if Iraq did not have the second largest oil reserves in the world then no-one in the USA would have ever given a stuff about the tiny (relatively speaking) land-mass that is currently called Iraq.
After all, there are currently "dictators" with "human-rights records" just as dismal as Mr SH. And there are countries all over the world with "weapons of mass-destruction". In fact, the country who has developed the very most potential for mass-destruction is the USA.
Not only that, they have *repeatedly* shown they will use such weapons in order to protect their economic interests. Which has, for decades, boiled down to the simple fact of keeping that supply of cheap-oil flowing.
Those who originally set out this policy, make no mistake, did fully realise many innocent lives would be wasted as a result. So they set out to develop a regime of performing the act with an advantageous sense of eloquence and style.
All we see now, is but a continuation of that original policy.
Yours,
Frank
Ooohh here is a good quote, Bruce Lee:
"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."
from http://www.eyeballsout.com/quotes/brucelee.shtml
And I have to agree. For instance, by siding with one viewpoint you naturally tend to discount evidence which goes against your views, as being irrelevant or not as important as what you already believe you know. To impassively weigh all the evidence before you, and judge whether this evidence forms a complete picture (it rarely does, especially on a subject like this), and then form a likely direction which takes us to the best ends, while at all times remaining fluid to change, should really be what we are aspiring towards. Difficult, to say the least, but a point to aim for none the less.
I am constantly reminded about the danger of becoming too set in one point of view. I think it is of critical importance that we try and steer as clear of this as possible.
Again...."The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."
thanks for listening to my rants!
Rob
Greetings Rob!
quote:
Originally posted by Inguma
[brAnyway, all this back-and-forthing - has it actually affected the views of any of you good posters out there? I would be very interested to hear if anyones opinions have been swayed. I suspect, that most peoples minds are already made up.
I fear you are correct in that most peoples minds are indeed well and truly made up. The vehemence of both sides is eyebrow raising compared to many similar global situations, but I still maintain that there are other forces at work here, particularly on the dark side, aiming to destablise humanity and send it further off the path. This is alas not surprising or unanticipated, but it doesn't alter the fact that the dark forces must not prevail.
People might find this hard to believe, but you only have to look at the "players" involved. Bush looks more like a war crazed madman every day. Colin Powell was a great and very fair gulf war leader and figurehead - now he seems as war crazed as Bush if not more so. Tony Blair - 10 years ago the Labour Party was totally pasifist to a man, and it was the Conservative's who were considered the warmongers. Blair seems more of a sabre rattling gingoistic warmonger than any Conservative I remember, including Margaret Thatcher. And that goes for the whole Labour cabinet.
Unseen forces can and do affect the minds of incarnate humans in order to destablise mankind and the planet. There is a battle going on right now between the forces of dark and light, and this is just the beginning. The next decade is pivotal to mankind - specifically as to whether it falls further towards the dark or is able to turn back towards the light. Whichever happens is the destiny of mankind for a long time.
This is why I maintain that we can defeat these forces with collective positive energy. The same energy can give the people of Iraq the strength to determine their own destiny as we have witnessed with the ex-eastern block countries and more recently China. China will one day be much more powerful than the USA in fact.
This proposed war is absolutely wrong however you look at it, and if it goes ahead will have ramifications for a long time to come, starting with a crisis in the United Nations, and an upsurge in inland terrorism aimed at the USA and Britain in particular. Anyone who believes that this invasion is justified is deluding themselves or have been deluded by external negative forces. No right minded person can look at the situation objectively and say that invasion of Iraq is wrong and
very, very dangerous for the future of mankind.
Regards,
Adrian.
Hi everyone.
Inguma, I know who Bush is. After all, he was governor of my state. I do agree with you with the subscribing of a particular view point. I myself am a fence sitter and have been a very long time.
If the UN does indeed vote against the a possible war, then fine by me. If this happens then what Bush should do is bring the troops back home, not just the ones in the Gulf, but everywhere. Then say no more free food or supplies, cut it all off. I've always felt that when George Washington said to stay out of the affairs of other nations and the world in general it was one of the best advice ever given by a president. If the world finds themselves in another silly world war, it should not matter to Americans as we were originally isolationists.
Adrian, you are partially right about China, however they need food. I have my doubts as to wether they can feed themselves. I do agree with you that the Iraqis should try to have an insurrection against Saddam, that way they have there own victory and decide where they will go from there.
Take care all.
Greetings BDHugh,
I agree with you that the USA should bring their troops home, but it should not mean sending no more humanitarian aid to those countries that genuinely need it. Food cannot be linked to cruise missiles in that way, and the UN is united in the need to assist underpriveledged countries.
Regarding China - they are becoming a super-power faster than people think, and they can and will buy food, oil and everything else they need, including of course the means to grow and make their own food.
China is in a transition from repressed communist country to a dynamic, vibrant country - like Hong Kong on a massive scale. The Chinese old guard are in their 80's or even 90's now,and once they have gone there will be no stopping China who will become an economic powerhouse supplying much of the world with goods, particularly electronics.
If the Iraqi people could free themselves from the tyranny, they too could become a great and prosperous nation with all that oil.
I just hope that the USA and UK respect the resolution if it goes against them. If they ignore it it will cause a definite crisis, andthe world will be a more dangerous place.
With best regards,
Adrian.
As an ex-military member in the USAF who spent over three years in the UK I have a few thoughts for you...Especially Frank, who could have been brought up speaking German were it not for the United States military...Yes, I know, this particular statement has been overused.
While stationed at Mildenhall I spent a great deal of time off-base. The older British men and women had a great deal of respect for us yanks. They remembered the generosity of many American soldiers who donated time, food, blankets, etc. to the many people who needed them. They also risked their lives to ensure the freedom from tyranny that would have become a way of life had the war went the other way.
While stationed in Merry Olde, I found it was the younger British (men mostly) that held us in contempt. While I will agree that many Americans can be arrogant, for the most part they are like any other human beings in the world. They thrive in loving environments and dislike being in the presence of negative and hateful ones.
For the most part I am extremely upset with my government and it's leaders. They are self-involved and many of their decisions are not based on the voice of the people, rather the voice of their own damn greed. But judging an American based on their government or leaders is completely absurd. They say that the govenment represents the people. They lie. And killing the average American because of the actions of their government is unjustifiable no matter what.
As for US soldiers, they are just pawns in this sick game our government leaders play in order to ensure they keep their pockets full and their ego's intact. The troops deserve our support in whatever dangerous endeavor they are forced to participate in.
I am very aware of the hypocrisies and atrocities of our government's past as well. What happened to the natives on this continent is disheartening and a great well of sadness resides within my very being just thinking about it. The question one has to ask themselves though, is how can we learn from these mistakes? What good can we bring forth from the horror of our past? Well, killing more Americans isn't going to help. Standing up for what is right. Voicing your opinion to those who are capable of initiating change. These are all we have. We best make good use of them.
It's funny how people/societies/etc. look outside of themselves and lob off blame and shame in an attempt to keep from looking at their own inequities. In the case of Frank and his continued barrages at the actions of America, I would implore him to look at his own country and the atrocities of it's past and present. I remember back in '88 '89 ish when I watched the news as football thugs and their violence caused the death of so many innocent fans. I cried for them that day as I watched the film footage. I didn't think, oh those poor British people, rather my heart went out to the human beings and the pain they must have been enduring. Are you catching my drift Frank?
The United Kingdom has committed as many (Or more) horrible crimes against humanity during it's many battles for control in it's bloody past. So no one, and that includes you Frank, has the high moral ground here. So, in closing, get off your holier than though soapbox sir. Instead of continuing to play the blame game, look within yourself for what it is you can do to create the atmosphere for a better world. If I have learned anything from my life experiences, it is that thoughts are things. As we continue to sow thoughts of love and peace within ourselves, we will eventually reap a world where love and peace flourishes. If we focus our thoughts on others and direct our anger and dis-ease for our plights on them, we continue the dysfunctional cycle of thinking that has us in our current states of disharmony.
As we think so shall we become...
Cheers!
Greetings Chance!
Welcome to the forums and thank you very much indeed for your post.
I really do not think that there is anything anti-American being said here per se, but rather pointing at the increasing alarming tendency for the US government to wield its military strength here there and everywhere, whenever it suits them, and regardless of the feelings of other countries and world peace generally. Since the end of the cold war, the resources ploughed into the miltary and in particular weapons of mass destruction by the USA simply does not seem to be in any way justified, and it indeed seems almost as if they are trying to justify it by taking a position as the de-facto worlds police force so that these weapons and the military can be justified.
This time around the USA is in very serious danger of seriously overstepping the mark, aided and abetted by the UK. The purpose of the United Nations is, by definition, designed to keep Nations United by concensus resolutions. If the USA puts forward a resolution, and has it voted down or vetoed, but chooses to ignore it anyway while calling the UN "irrelevant" as Bush suggested recently, and invaded Iraq anyway, then the USA will be exposing itself to very severe consequences, not to mention the affect on world peace.
People do not have a problem with Americans, and I certainly don't - but do see "Americans" as being collectively responsible if they invade Iraq against the UN as it will be deemed to be a slur against the UN and every member nation, as well as the populations of those nations who the UN people represent. The backlash will affect every American family, as they are in danger of becoming the outcasts of the world, and would likely not receive any sympathy for the consequences of their actions.
Bush is behaving like a war crazed madman along with his henchman, and for the sake of all humanity, and in particular the American people, he simply has to be stopped.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Thats strange,
I made three short replies to this topic, saw them entered , now they have dissapeared.
Is there some editing going on?
Paola
Paolo - thats odd, I seriously doubt anyone has deleted them, unless they were *waaaay* over the top and even then I doubt it. Adrian???
----
All injustice should be worked against. Saddam is just another offender is a sea of scum.
This is awful, but I don't remember even hearing of it before:
http://nexusmagazine.com/canada.html
quote" height="
[i" src="Originally posted by Chance[/i]
As an ex-military member in the USAF who spent over three years in the UK I have a few thoughts for you...Especially Frank, who could have been brought up speaking German were it not for the United States military...Yes, I know, this particular statement has been overused.
Thank-you for your input.
As to the quote above, I would add: and if it were not for the great sacrifice also made by others of all nationalities (including many members of my own family). My father was the youngest so he was just a tad too young to be enlisted. But his eldest brother was killed along with his father. His other brother spent time in a Japanese concentration camp and never mentally recovered from the experience.
Same too with my mother, her eldest brother was killed along with her father. In fact, so many English men were killed, when I was a boy it was unusual for anyone to have a grandfather.
It still sits in mind today, the times (particularly at Christmas) when what was left of the family would gather together. They'd be okay for a while, and one by one they'd break down and just end up holding each other. You'd quickly fill a bath from all the tears that were shed in memory of their loved ones. It wasn't so much the fact they had died, it was the
way in which they died. Like, situations where submarines submerged and never came up. But my family was by no means an exception. For that's how it
is in the aftermath of war.
You can harp back to WW2 all you like. But the situation faced then was entirely different. Here we have an ageing dictator (one of many) but this one, rather than being allowed to just fade away, is currently sitting in charge of a relatively tiny land-mass under which is the second largest oil-reserves in the world. If it were not for that fact, then no-one in America would have ever given a stuff about Iraq. After all, it is an undenyable fact that US economic supremecy relies on a plentiful flow of cheap crude-oil.
More and more people have, over the decades, steadily come to terms with the fact that America only serves what suits them. Which is I guess why you found you were welcomed in this country by the WW2 generation, but generally slated by younger people.
But here you are set to go one stage further and act outside specific UN resolutions. From what you say, to the average American, a big shoulder-shrug is in order. But it will simply give the green light for every tin-pot hero nation or group that ever lived, to do the same.
Yours,
Frank
Thanks, Chance, for clearing all that up. A REAL American doesn't worship money, doesn't support our government as it is right now, DOES support our troops, and believes in the ideals on which this country was founded. I am proud to be an American. There are many in this country who are not REAL Americans or patriots, and I am speaking of the government (I am NOT talking about immigrants, because even they are more American than our government), as well as others who believe that their personal wealth comes before protecting the ideals that became the foundation of our country. It is those corrupt individuals in the government and in corporations who are a disgrace to our country. It is up to the people to stop them from what they are doing to this country. Our country was founded on the notion that all people are equal, and all have the right to pursue life, liberty, and happines, and that nobody can take those rights away from us. It's time for us to stand against these individuals, as our forefathers did against the British Redcoats during the Revolutionary War. Just because they are from our country doesn't mean they're our allies. Not everyone in our country believes in those ideals. Who here has the courage to do so? I believe I do. I believe many of you do as well. But before we can stop them, we must know how. Our country is in a condition similar to that of a person infected with a virus. Let's fit the cure to the disease. We must ask ourselves: What is the disease that affects our country? How do we go about curing it? What can "kill" this disease? What is it immuned to? How can we prevent this disease from infecting the country again?
Hi Adrian
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian
Greetings BDHugh,
I agree with you that the USA should bring their troops home, but it should not mean sending no more humanitarian aid to those countries that genuinely need it. Food cannot be linked to cruise missiles in that way, and the UN is united in the need to assist underpriveledged countries.
Many countries slap us in the face when we feed them. I believe that the U.S. government should no longer send humanitarian aid. However, I do encourage U.S. companies that operate internationally to do so, as this increases business and keeps a positive perspective on them. Or, just as well private charity organizations.
quote:
Regarding China - they are becoming a super-power faster than people think, and they can and will buy food, oil and everything else they need, including of course the means to grow and make their own food.
It matters not wether they can buy food, it matters if they can supply themselves with food. Throughout history any powerful nation that has existed owes their success of being able to feed their own.
Take care.
Hi EnderWiggin.
quote:
Originally posted by EnderWiggin
We must ask ourselves: What is the disease that affects our country? How do we go about curing it? What can "kill" this disease? What is it immuned to? How can we prevent this disease from infecting the country again?
I believe the 'disease' is caused by our current education system. Our education system is based off the Prussian educational system where it is arranged that you follow orders instead of having people thinking on their own.
Here is a little background info which explains how it came about in our country: http://www.feltd.com/domo3.html
Here is a website which addresses a solution to the problem called "Project Renaissance". http://www.winwenger.com Check it out there is alot of interesting info on the website.
Take care.
Timeless - thankyou!! Lol yes, we do have a really good bunch here. Myself, I would love to go to Iraq, and see what life is actually like there, what people actually think of Saddam. I wonder if they hate Americans more? (the "highway of death" springs to mind....)
Thank you for the gracious welcome Adrian! I am very impressed with this site and the insight of it's members.
I hope you didn't think I was picking on you Frank. I looked inside myself for why of all the posts, yours seemed to raise the hairs on the back of my neck (They are fine white ones, not the huge dark scary kind). I believe one of the events that put me off was the beating of three of my fellow airmen at the hands (And mostly clubs) of a large group of British youth. Why did they beat my friends up? Because they were Americans. I don't hate the young Britains that did that. I hate the ignorance that led them to the violent act they committed.
Believe me Frank, I have heard of the plight suffered by the British during WW2. I listened intently to my neighbor, who served during that hellish war, as he told me story after story of the suffering both the soldiers and those keeping the home fires lit endured. Perhaps this is why my favorite band of all time has been and continues to be Pink Floyd. In almost all of their albumns you can feel the pain of loss and anger towards military leaders, etc. with regards to that particular war.
In regards to our current world situation I'd have to say you are only partially correct in your view on why GW is so darn anxious to whoop up on some Sadaam butt. Oil, yes that is quite obvious now isn't it. Oust Sadaam, in with some govt./dictator that is pro USA. Cheaper oil. But there is more. GW is not a rocket scientist. Well, he probably would have difficulting saying rocket scientist. LOL! Recently he was quoted saying, "A zebra can't change it's spots." This active aggression towards Iraq is his way of showing how strong a leader he is. He suffers the illusion that going to war makes one appear strong. He also suffers from the illusion that a war will help the economy. Since he has no intellectual reserves to wield in improving our economy, he uses this conflict to keep our attention elsewhere. It's the classic tail wagging the dog scenario. But there is more. His father has his ear. His father used to be head of the CIA. I don't really think any more speculation is necessary as you can fathom what that might mean. And of course the embarrassment that the Gulf War didn't take a large enough bite out of Sadaam's backside during Bush Sr's reign must play a part in here as well. Soon GW will be attempting to keep his office. Presidential polls are always favorable during a time of war.
Thankfully the oil card will only be playable for a few more years anyhow. Hydrogen fuel cell technology is on the rise. In less than ten years I believe we will see fossil fuel vehicles go the way of the dinosaur. Sure the dinosaurs of fossil fuel will fight all the way to their extinction, but it is coming. Type fuel cells into your browser. You'll find it very interesting.
I believe Hugh is on the money with the real disease. The lack of an education system that inspires one to think for themselves. Our current education system could be compared with Pavlov's dogs. We put the right letter in the right box and we are rewarded with an A. We get enough A's and we get to attend a higher learning facility. That facility rewards us with more A's as we continue to put the right letters in the right boxes, or write papers that our educational instructors find to their liking. We get enough A's at this facility and we find ourselves rewarded by getting high paying positions in corporations. How do we get ahead in those corporations. Mostly by saying and doing what it is the heads of those corporations want to hear and see done. And we come to ENRON and the other corporations, who's leaders sell out their people for their own personal gain.
We can also look to two of the most prevalent problems we face as individuals. Lack of personal responsibility and instant gratification. If something bad happens to us we want to blame, sue, etc. someone else until we gain financial rewards. Lawyers love this stuff. It fills their pockets every day. Feel a bit low on energy, pop a pill. Yeah that'll fix us right up. How about finding the source of the energy depletion. The pharmaceutical companies love that mentality...And they are making billions off of it.
I have strayed a bit, I apologize.
Anti-American sentiment is like all other anti-sentiment, it's anti-productive. Are you going to hate Americans because of the actions of their government? It makes no sense. I'll tell you something else. Go ahead and kill an American. You will reap the Karma from your actions and you will not kill the true American Spirit. It will come back again and again. The True American Spirit is about Freedom. It has no national borders. It listens to no law. It is truthful to itself. It can live in any man, woman or child.
I think we can all agree that freedom is worth fighting and dying for! Or can we?
Oil is good for much more than burning. It is also used to make plastics, synthetic fibers, pharmaceuticals, dyes, and explosives. Food additives, too, I think. Gasoline is just a small portion of the mixture known as oil. Another power source will not change this.
You are correct in saying that it is used in many other products Tom. What you are missing though is the fact that other substances may be substituted for oil. Many of the ones you listed could be replaced by the oil squeezed from marijuana seeds. Another reason it is still illegal in this country. It makes a better fabric. It could be used for paper. Cash crops could be grown two to three times a year depending on the location. And think of all the trees that would save! There is more protein in a marijuana seed than any other seed. It could make a much more durable plastic. The oil could be used as oil bases in paints and, well, I could go on and on here. But I won't. My digits are in need of rest.
Needless to say Tom, we need to change our ways of thinking in relation to our dependency on oil in every aspect of manufacturing the products we use in our lives. I await the day of the grand Awakening. When enough souls reach a certain level of consciousness, we will see something very similar to what occured during the hundredth monkey experiment.
Here's a link...http://www.worldtrans.org/pos/monkey.html
Greetings Tom,
That is correct. I started out as an organic chemist (I worked for Bayer), and most organic compounds including the ones you mention depend upon basic organic building blocks derived from crude oil.
If you removed all oil derived materials from the physical world, it would likely fall apart [:)] Although I do drive a car,I do try to stay away from synthetic fibres, and wear cotton wherever possible.
Having said all of that, it is the fuels that are the major source of pollution, and any alternative based e.g. on Hydrogen would be most welcome.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
Originally posted by Chance
Thank you for the gracious welcome Adrian! I am very impressed with this site and the insight of it's members.
I hope you didn't think I was picking on you Frank. I looked inside myself for why of all the posts, yours seemed to raise the hairs on the back of my neck (They are fine white ones, not the huge dark scary kind). I believe one of the events that put me off was the beating of three of my fellow airmen at the hands (And mostly clubs) of a large group of British youth. Why did they beat my friends up? Because they were Americans. I don't hate the young Britains that did that. I hate the ignorance that led them to the violent act they committed.
Nope, I never for a moment thought you were "picking on me" and I thank you again for your input. Problem is, it is ignorance that leads to violence. As to young thugs, someone gets a good kicking for no reason (of which you have had direct experience). But on a nation-scale, a country gets bombed to bits.
quote:
Believe me Frank, I have heard of the plight suffered by the British during WW2. I listened intently to my neighbor, who served during that hellish war, as he told me story after story of the suffering both the soldiers and those keeping the home fires lit endured. Perhaps this is why my favorite band of all time has been and continues to be Pink Floyd. In almost all of their albumns you can feel the pain of loss and anger towards military leaders, etc. with regards to that particular war.
In that respect we have little or no difference.
Naturally, I'm not maintaining the experience of such is a yardstick everyone should follow... but I do feel that if people were forced to live through a "war" situation they would perhaps not be so ready to repeat the experience.
Of course, I am not wishing that on anyone. But I would again strongly suggest that people in the USA please look at the devastation that was caused by those two planes on the twin-towers and consider... that the sheer horror that occured that day was only about two US cruise-missiles' worth of destruction.
Respectfully,
Frank
Greetings Chance!
quote:
Originally posted by Chance
You are correct in saying that it is used in many other products Tom. What you are missing though is the fact that other substances may be substituted for oil. Many of the ones you listed could be replaced by the oil squeezed from marijuana seeds. Another reason it is still illegal in this country. It makes a better fabric. It could be used for paper. Cash crops could be grown two to three times a year depending on the location. And think of all the trees that would save! There is more protein in a marijuana seed than any other seed. It could make a much more durable plastic. The oil could be used as oil bases in paints and, well, I could go on and on here. But I won't. My digits are in need of rest.
Needless to say Tom, we need to change our ways of thinking in relation to our dependency on oil in every aspect of manufacturing the products we use in our lives. I await the day of the grand Awakening. When enough souls reach a certain level of consciousness, we will see something very similar to what occured during the hundredth monkey experiment.
Here's a link...http://www.worldtrans.org/pos/monkey.html
You are so right!
Organic building blocks can be derived from numerous alternative sources, the only limitation being availability. The problem generally is that the materialistic human race still has little regard for conservation, the environment etc., and lives for today instead of the world our children will have to live in. It is not until things reach a crisis point,e.g. as with the "greenhouse effect" and global warming, that crisis measures and planning come into effect by which time it is too late of course. As an aside, someone is successfully running unmodified diesel engines from a vegetable oil, the name of which escapes me for now.
Regarding monkeys - yes! All Spirit is connected at the unconscious level - that is how alot of low magic works which is aimed at influencing other people. All animal life and of course humans are thus connected, and can, and do communicate subconsiously in that manner. Low magic employs energy to bring about the desired effect on another person. BTW - low magic used for this purpose is grey or even black magic and should never been performed. If you interfere with the freewill of another person, there will be a Karmic price to pay in the same magnitude, and in strict accordance with Universal laws.
However - if enough members of a group collectively create sufficient energy in the same direction, then, like low magic, the energy will travel to other members of the collective mind and manifest accordingly in the collective consciousness as thoughts and actions.
To get back on topic - I believe that is what is happening with the Iraq situation, Tremendous energy from both dark and light forces are influencing the collective human unconscious, and we are seeing an unprecedented polarisation of good intent (no war) and bad intent - war. This is a true battle of dark against light and the stakes are high. Bush, Colin Powell, Blair and their henchmen and women are being firmly influenced by the dark forces who want to destablise the planet,and bring about fear, death, destruction and all of the negative energies it needs upon which to feed and grow stronger. Fortunately, the forces of light are ahead in human terms, but people like Bush and Blair have the power to plunge the world into darkness.
With best regards,
Adrian.
I think science and medicine would solve many a war issue.
Give George and Sadam a testosterone level test.
Bingo problem found. All that is needed then is a little medication to create a false sense of balance, and there ya go.
Paola
In jest.
Its really sad, Most people dont realize that ,in Islam, there isnt a rule that says to kill non-belivers. It says to repect all non-belivers just as you would want religon to be respected. In fact it goes as far to say that if a muslim insulted a non-beliver's religon and the non-beliver verbally retaliated against islam, then All of what he/she says is on your head.
Also...Islamic law does not allow the killing of innocent people, even in war. It goes as far to say that if a muslim in war comes across a solder who surrenders or stops fighting, then it is a sin to kill him.
These Terrorist, like bin laden, are using the same tatics as hitler to seize the minds of the poeple.
Terrorism by its very nature is illegal in islam.
So who ever said to kill any american in pakistan, Godwillingly he will be punished.
Also..on a side note..True Islamic Law..By its very nature is a secular form of goverment.
For example, in spain, when the moors came in, they did not force the religon on anyone...At the time of the empire's collapse..90% of the population was still freely non-muslim.
--ICWiz
Greetings ICWiz,
Thank you for that perspective.
I do not profess to be familiar with Islam or the Koran, but I have long since suspected that governments and other factions are trying to manipulate the masses, and run their countries using religion. Christianity is no exception I hasten to add - it is all about making use of the feelings and insecurity of "God fearing" people, whether it is based on the word of Jesus and the christian God or Mohammed and Allah, both of which have been seriously distorted over the centuries. Jesus came to teach Spirituality to mankind in terms that people could grasp, and Mohammed probably did as well.
I believe the Islamic fundamentalists use the interpreted commandment of destroying the "infidel", and which is interpreted as any country that can loosely be claimed to be an enemy of Islam - the USA being the number one candidate. It is on this basis that the fundamentalists call for the support of the people in the name of Allah to rise up in Jihad.
If the people of Iraq an other countries new the truth about their religion, they would probably find the strength to rise up against the real infidel - the fundamentalists who make their lives a misery.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian
Greetings ICWiz,
Thank you for that perspective.
I do not profess to be familiar with Islam or the Koran, but I have long since suspected that governments and other factions are trying to manipulate the masses, and run their countries using religion. Christianity is no exception I hasten to add - it is all about making use of the feelings and insecurity of "God fearing" people, whether it is based on the word of Jesus and the christian God or Mohammed and Allah, both of which have been seriously distorted over the centuries. Jesus came to teach Spirituality to mankind in terms that people could grasp, and Mohammed probably did as well.
I believe the Islamic fundamentalists use the interpreted commandment of destroying the "infidel", and which is interpreted as any country that can loosely be claimed to be an enemy of Islam - the USA being the number one candidate. It is on this basis that the fundamentalists call for the support of the people in the name of Allah to rise up in Jihad.
If the people of Iraq an other countries new the truth about their religion, they would probably find the strength to rise up against the real infidel - the fundamentalists who make their lives a misery.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Its not fearing god like you fear a snake , as something to hurt you. Its more like the fear a child had to a parent of the pushiment they would get if they upset them.
God loves all
And you are very right, Islamic fundamentalist are the real enemy. But fighting them isnt the answer either, it knowledge. The act of aquiring spritual knowledge in itself is a form of worship in islam.
Just by doing that the people of those countries would prevent people like bin laden from getting into the minds of the populus.
I, being a devout and (I pray) a true muslim, try to teach the true word to all, Its my Jihad on the problems of the world
--ICWiz
quote:
Originally posted by ICWiz
Its not fearing god like you fear a snake , as something to hurt you. Its more like the fear a child had to a parent of the pushiment they would get if they upset them.
That's a good analogy.
quote:
And you are very right, Islamic fundamentalist are the real enemy. But fighting them isnt the answer either, it knowledge. The act of aquiring spritual knowledge in itself is a form of worship in islam.
To help me understand further, could you please give me your definition of, "Islamic Fundamentalist" because that's a side of the argument I never fully undertood. So your input would be gratefully received.
You then mention about the act of acquiring spiritual knowledge is a form of worship. My question is, how is this "act of acquiring" brought about? Are followers (if that is the right term) taught to simply read from books, or are they encouraged to look within themselves for answers? Or maybe it is a mixture of both.
Forgive me if my questions sound simplistic.
Yours,
Frank
Greetings everyone,
Every religion seems to have its "mainstream followers", the fundamentalists (often fanatics), and the esoteric/mystical/Spiritual orders.
It is the fanatics who seek to use the religions of the nations in order to control, manipulate and terrorise people, and is often used as an instrument by governments. This applies to most religions, but we are seeing it in particular with the Islamic fundamentalists of today.
Christianity has its esoteric side, often associated with Essenes and Gnostics, the Jewish faith has its Kaballists, in the Orient there are various Yoga disciplines and Islam has the "Sufis".
All of these organisations had similar doctrines relating to truth. I found this on a website relating to Sufism:
When asked about Sufism, Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Qassab--the master of Junayd--said, "Sufism consists of noble behavior (akhlaq karima) that is made manifest at a noble time on the part of a noble person in the presence of a noble people."
When he was asked about Sufism, Junayd said, "Sufism is that you should be with God--without any attachment."
With regard to Sufism, Ruwaym ibn Ahmad said, "Sufism consists of abandoning oneself to God in accordance with what God wills."
On one occasion when he was asked about Sufism, Samnun said, "Sufism is that you should not possess anything nor should anything possess you."
Concerning Sufism, Abu Muhammad al-Jariri said, "Sufism consists of entering every exalted quality (khulq) and leaving behind every despicable quality."
When he was asked about Sufism, 'Amr ibn 'Uthman al-Makki said, "Sufism is that at each moment the servant should be in accord with what is most appropriate (awla) at that moment."
Regarding Sufism, 'Ali ibn 'Abd al-Rahim al-Qannad said, "Sufism consists of extending a 'spiritual station' (nashr maqam) and being in constant union (ittisal bi-dawam)."
All of these definitions of Sufism given by Sufis who lived in the 9th and 10th centuries (CE) are provided by al-Sarraj (d. 378 AH/ 988 CE) in the earliest comprehensive book on Sufism, the Kitab al-Luma' (The Book of Flashes) (ed. by R. Nicholson, pp. 34-35). These definitions of Sufism, however, are mere signposts pointing one to the Doorway
I particularly like:
Concerning Sufism, Abu Muhammad al-Jariri said, "Sufism consists of entering every exalted quality (khulq) and leaving behind every despicable quality."
Which is a fundamental and sacred duty of all mankind and precisely the opposite of the characteristics of many fundamentalists.
All of these follow the true teachings of their Masters and prophets, and were, and still are often persecuted, or driven into hiding or esoterism by the fundamentalists who had, and still have, their own agendas, and also to a lesser extent the followers at large who simply believe everything their church and books state, and which has been derived from a materialistic interpretation of the truth which has totally distorted the ancient and real truths and wisdoms.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
To help me understand further, could you please give me your definition of, "Islamic Fundamentalist" because that's a side of the argument I never fully understood. So your input would be gratefully received.
An Islamic fundamentalist is a Person who follows a warped and distorted version of Islam. Instead of reading and trying to understand the whole religion and its books (the holy Quran and the Hadith) they take bits and pieces from it and come to their own conclusions.
You see, in the Quran and the Hadith, There are many guidelines for living as a just, responsible human being. As a result there are many different "scenarios" that it teaches about.
The main idea of the fundamentalist is that they take the rules of war and distort them. For example, there is a rule that says "Do not allow anyone to oppress you, if they do, you must declare a jihad against them". This rule however, has many explanations, which you also have to read to understand what it means. The Fundamentalist take this for its literal value.
The US does not oppress. In America, I can pray anywhere as long as I'm not in someone else's way. So there is no oppression, thus, we cannot declare jihad. Now in Israel, there is a right of jihad, BUT the jihad MUST be fought by those oppressed. So I can't just fly over there and fight. It's not my fight. When a bad time comes on a group of people, it is beloved that God is testing them. So...I cant help them cheat, now can I?
However, the act of suicide bombing is forbidden. It's no different then regular suicide. The actual way to fight is face to face. If you can't fight them because they are too strong, then you know what path god has laid out for you.
There was once an Islamic Military General (I forgot his name). His goal in life was to die in battle, as a Shahid (what is wrongfully called a martyr). Even though he fought many countless battles and came within inches of his death, he never did die in battle. He ended up dieing an old man.
The Concept of a Shahid is not that you simply die in battle. It's when you die while trying to fulfill a jihad. Jihad, litrearly, means "a struggle". In Islam it means a struggle for god. For example a Sufi has to declare a jihad on the badness in his heart before he can be close to god.
A sick person trying his or her hardest to live is also fighting a Jihad; life is a gift god gives you, to fight for it is to fight for god. And if they end up succumbing to the illness and dying, they are in fact shahid.
There is a reason god made the rule for shahid . If you were a devout Muslim and One night you messed up and did something bad. Now you will have to pray and beg forgiveness. But let's say at the same time something happened and you had to fight for your fellow Muslims survival from some other evil. But your have a big dilemma, If you die, you might end up with a bad record and you will end up in hell. So what would you do, Not fight, of course. But then who would help the people.
Well god said, not to worry, you will automatically be sent to heaven if you die in a jihad, regardless of your record. You see, it's like something to give you piece of mind, so you don't loose sight of the greater good.
This is the brief explanation of these concepts. I didn't want to bore you will all the details. They are other conditions that are to be considered.
But what it boils down to, it that an Islamic fundamentalist is not Islamic[:(!]. They are all heavy sinners and will have to answer to their creator.
quote:
You then mention about the act of acquiring spiritual knowledge is a form of worship. My question is how this "act of acquiring" is brought about? Are followers (if that is the right term) taught to simply read from books, or are they encouraged to look within themselves for answers? Or maybe it is a mixture of both.
Its both, learning god's book and the teachings of the prophet are all considered acts of acquiring knowledge. Also, looking within yourself to see what kind of person you are and trying to raise yourself to a better person is also considered a spiritual act. There are a lot of ways to do this.
quote:
Forgive me if my questions sound simplistic.
Not a problem, hope this make things a little clearer. If not just let me know [:D]
--ICWiz
Frank,
Your question may sound simple to you but it is very important.
1'st question:
You see, fundamentalism is a much misused words. Fundamentalism means adherence to the fundamentals and the essence of whatever it is (religion such Christian, Islam, Jews or whatever). This means that the fundamentalist of a religion should adhere to the ruling and conduct of that religion. Then, we can call them fundamentalist. However the media always used this words to portray in accurate view because of many reason such as control of the people Judgement and emotion. When people were given wrong fact, how could we expect them to make correct value decision? This have been played upon by those people to further their own interest. So, in my opinion we cannot correctly call them (such as the terrorist) Muslim fundamentalist. We also cannot call those Christian who do such thing as Christian Fundamentalist. A more accurate term for this should be exteremist( which I guess what Icwiz actually mean when he said fundamentalist). The Koran clearly said that God do not like those who transgress or goes to the extereme (exteremist). Also Icwiz is correct that a muslim cannot kill a non muslim or even insult other's religion. Also killing oneself is prohibited therefore those who suicide bombed themselved were not actually martyr but they die in vain.
2'nd question:
In my understanding of Islam, the "act of acquiring" knowledge for the follower involves reading from the Quran and collection of traditions (or sunnah which includes the sayings of the Prophet, his practices, and actions which gained his approval) and also to look within and use logic. What I understand Islam does not call for blind faith and encourage the follower to question. There are many recently scientific facts in the Quran which may appeals to those scientifically oriented (even describe the Big Bang theory)). Therefore you can say that it's a mixture of both.
That's just what I understand so Icwiz or anyone correct me if there are any wrong.
P.S. Frank, I have asimpler question for you or Adrian: how to include quote?[:I] Thanks.
"One of the more curious features of the followers of the various religions is that, being so dogmatically certain that in their own particular little faith they already possess the whole Truth about all things in Heaven and Earth, it almost never occurs to any of them to look elsewhere and find out what the followers of other religions may know or may have discovered."
ame,
All of what you said is true. Islam does not allow blind faith.
Also on a side note...Islam does have a explaination for the big bang theory, and a possible theory for the substance of the universe.
It says that in the begining there was a substance like water. Then God with his might created the universe with the foam and he froze the clear into his throne. ( Read the Zero-point field theory [:P] )
Anyway...I'm happy to see that there are people that are open minded in the world.[^]
Thank you both for your input. Being bombarded by western-style news is becoming rather tiresome and I'm making it my goal to balance this with a greater degree of understanding of, "the other side" so to speak. I wondered if you knew of any websites I could scan in order to seek further understanding of these matters?
Yours,
Frank
quote:
Thank you both for your input. Being bombarded by western-style news is becoming rather tiresome and I'm making it my goal to balance this with a greater degree of understanding of, "the other side" so to speak. I wondered if you knew of any websites I could scan in order to seek further understanding of these matters?
I've been checking some website lately. Most of it is relating to science in relation to religion (science is always my fav subject and believing in God is very important to me).[8D]
http://www.it-is-truth.org/
http://www.beconvinced.com/SCIENCEINDEX.htm
http://islamicity.com/Science/iqs/
The following is not about science but offer introduction to Islam.
http://www.thetruereligion.org/
ame: Thank-you for the links.
Yours,
Frank
The smoking gun...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/cold/photos_prove_connection_between_iraq_and_al_qaeda_terrorists.guest.html
For all of you who are reading this again, or for the first time, I want to call attention to the fact that I don't necessarily think the following is a great discourse or even that enlightening...I posted this because I think it is food for thought. I believe all mankind should come together and drop arms...on the same note, however, I think terrorism needs to be stopped at any cost. I believe the world is threatened by terrorists from sundry locales...not just the Middle East. There are terrorists from the US as well as from Europe and Africa, etc. The evil behind terrorism cannot be routed out and destroyed physically, let this be known...I do think, however, that there are individuals and organizations that stand out as propagators of violence and terror and I fully support those who intend on routing them out.
What is an American?
You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was
actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.
So, an Australian dentist wrote the following to let everyone know whatan American is, so they would know when they found one.
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian, or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan. An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans." An American may come from any country in the world"
An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or
Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America, they are free to worship as each of them chooses. An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that,
>he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs
>claiming to speak for the government and for God.
>
>An American is from the most prosperous land in the history of the
>world. The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God-given right of each man and
woman to the pursuit of happiness.
An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every
other nation in the world in their time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by the Soviet army twenty years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country. As of the morning of September 11, 2001, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.
Americans welcome the best -- the best products, the best books, the
>best music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the least. The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest-tossed. These, in fact, are the people who built America. Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least thirty other countries, cultures, and first languages -- including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.
So, you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did
General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao, and every blood thirsty tyrant in
the history of the world. But, in doing so, you would just be killing
yourself, because Americans are not a particular people from a
particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit and
freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.