What's sick is that the people who attack like this don't really understand that it is people that they're killing and lives like theirs that they are devastating.
May they rest in peace...
Al Qaeda is claiming responsibility now. Who knows if they actually did it or not, but now maybe we'll get some help in tracking down Osama. I'm sorry for Spain. Those kinds of attacks are horrible and I'm sure it hit close to home for the Spanish. This all happened in their capitol, after all. The Spanish have my condolences, and I mean that, as little as that may mean.
why cant everyone get along?
can it really feel right to them to kill so many people? do they think God will really love them more because they prove to everyone they kill the innocent? are they crazy! and what do they get out of this anyway? try to make everyone fear them,but for what price, hundreds of lives taken. May they rest in peace (the dead)
Yes these kind of things are sickening, but you must remember that everything happens for a reason. These souls chose to go through this horrible act, for others to learn from it. (not to mention themselves)
My belief is before we incarnate we actually sit around and talk about what we are going to do this "time around" what lessons need to be learned and what not.
Of course lessons are not always pretty, especially when children are involved. Look at 9/11. New York was known for its people being rude, stand offish and just plain uncaring. After 9/11, those people came together as one and helped each other in any way they could! I'm not just pulling that out of my arse either, I have both read or saw on documentaries that this is how alot of them felt. That a bigger thing came out of it.
I am sure it doesn't lessen the pain for those whom lost loved ones, but at least they (I hope) know that it wasn't for naught.
Nay
My deepest sympathies go to all the victims, dead and injured, and their families. I was shocked when I saw photos of the trains on tv tonight.
Whoever did this definitely intended to murder as many people as they could. The steal that which is not theirs to have -- the lives of others.
Generally speaking, these kinds of attacks get them nothing. I don't understand the minds that want to kill others, but I do understand the suffering and broken-heartedness of the people who will now have to bury someone they loved.
Let us all pray for them to have some comfort and someone to hold their hand while they cry.
Also, I would like to ask us all, especially us Americans, to be generous in donating to any victims funds in the USA as most of the injured there will not have the means to pay hugh medical expenses or just pay day to day home expenses while they are recovering. Many others will need assistance in paying for funerals.
So please, contact the closest Spanish Embassy to you to find out what you can do to help.
Peace....Jena
quote:
Originally posted by findtruth
What's sick is that the people who attack like this don't really understand that it is people that they're killing and lives like theirs that they are devastating....
The sad part is they don't care!
Terrorists like this have resigned their lives to their cause. In their own eyes they are already dead. They have no respect for life so they feel nothing. What makes it worse is their bizzare belief that such brutal acts against "the godless" will ensure them a place of eternal pleasure in heaven.
James.
Hmm, I wonder who WAS responsible though?
Its still too early to tell, but the Spanish government would like everyone to think ETA is responsible, but other evidence suggests Islamic terrorists. ETA have themselves denied any responsiblity for the attack.
I am wary of the government's claim for ETA; they have an agenda in putting the blame for the bombing on ETA.
It is election time in Spain:
Many Spaniards were p**ed of at the Spanish PM's support for Bush & Blair, a deeply unpopular move in Spain, since they believed that by pledging support for the US and UK, Spain might be drawn into attacks themselves by Islamic extremists; the extremists later said that those who supported Bush and Blair would be targets; Spain was one of the countries listed.
If this is in fact what has happened, then the Spanish people will probably want to lynch the government for taking them down this road, just as much as they want to lynch those responsible!
For this reason, with the election on Sunday, the government will want to pin the blame on ETA instead, as this will show them in less of a bad light; also they will draw good support as people have liked the government's hard line on ETA in the past.
However, from looking at the way this bombing was carried out, it doesnt look like ETA's work.
10 bomb blasts set of by remote control? a commuter train?
This is not ETA's style; and the level of co-ordination and planning suggests Islamic extremist involvement.
There has been a letter sent to an arabic newspaper which claims to be from those responsible, however this might be a hoax and an attempt by some Islamic group to take the 'glory' for themselves.
Time will tell hopefully, but don't expect much before Sunday's election.
Douglas
Hi.
I'm Spanish (sorry if I made mistakes writing, my English level isn't as good as I'd like it to be [;)]). I'm only writing this to give a bit more information about how are things evolving here in Spain.
As Douglas said, I didn't expected too much before today's elections, because all the influence people knowing the truth about attacks would have in elections for the actual government. But I must admit they have surprised me: yesterday at night, they revealed to have found a video tape from Al Qaeda saying they were responsible for attacks.
Yesterday there were also concentrations in PP (actual government) headquarters in a lot of Spanish cities. People were claiming "Queremos saber la verdad" (we wan't to know the truth) and a lot of things like that. As far as I know, there were all pacific concentrations [:)] Well, tomorrow we'll see elections results...
And finally, some more information about attacks. There were 200 persons killed, and more then 1400 injured. It's terrible, but... it could have been even worse.
Why? First, because Thursday in Madrid a lot of university students didn't use the train beacause a strike. And second, because trains had some delay. The real intentions seemed to make the trains explode... when they were in Atocha's Station... This wouldn't only kill people waiting for the train. It was said that, having exploded the trains synchronously in station, the station could have collapsed...
That's all. Nothing more to say. Bye.
Hum... terrorist won't get what they want by sending flowers to governments... They want to pressure governments to do this and that, to leave them alone, etc... Governments will never agree; so terrorists have to go after the population as a mean of pressure. The more the death toll, the stronger the pressure on the governement.
I am not saying they are right to do what they do of course... I am just saying that is is sadly logical.
You could almost say that going on strike is some kind of very light terrorism... If you go on strike and it does not bother anybody, it won't change anything; everybody will ignore you. If you block transportation for millions of people, you will get a lot of attention (good and bad) suddenly...
Right now, in France, a group called "AZF" asked the french governemnt to pay like 5+ millions $$$ or they will blow up some trains... And officialy the governement is going to pay them.
Here's the result in Spain:
The terrorists said they bombed Spain because Spain helped the US in Irak. Most of the Spanish population was against the war in Irak. The former political party in power, expected to win, lost the elections ( mostly because of the ETA / Alqueda controversy). Now, the new governement in power said they will withdraw Spanish troops from Irak.
Sadly, looks like the terrorists got what they wanted...
Hi again.
The new government will withdraw troops from Irak... because they said they will do that some time ago during elections campaign, even before attacks.
So that decision is older than attacks. And not only that. The political party of our new government, when war was declared, opposed to it, as many other parties and, of course, population.
So they are doing what they should do. They said they will do it, and we claimed we wanted that.
This is my opinion, of course [:)]
I did not mean to say that the new governement decided the withdrawal after the bombing; I meant to say that, because of the bombing mess, another political party (which indeed is against attacking Iraq) was elected (at least that's what the press is thinking; you cannot be 100% with elections). So, in some non direct way, the bombing pushed the withdrawl from Iraq by weighting on the elections to not re-elect the "pro-US" party...
One question is: did the terrorists do it on this date to mess up with the elections, or did they do it because, as said in the press, it was 911 days after 9/11...
I think the Spanish people are just getting their own back on a government that decided to go ahead and support Bush and Blair, even although 90% of Spanish people were against it, even demonstrating in the streets. What happened to democracy?
It was the same in Britain, but Blair pushed ahead anyway.
Why are people in Spain AND the UK ticked off? Because they knew that the UK or Spanish governments throwing their support in with America would make them targets for Islamic extremists.
And this is just what happened. Islamics extremists never had any grievences with Spain before, but they do now.
The people understood this, and wanted to stay out of it, thats why they are really ticked off when their 'representative' government doesnt listen to them.
Whats irritating is that now we'll get 'I told you so' statements from Bush & Blair saying that he was right all along that we are all under threat from Islamic extremists..... well, if you decide to openly side with the extremist's enemy, then yes, you are a target... thats why most people wanted to stay out of it... too late now.
Douglas
To all americans here in the forum i must apologize for my next words: Bush it is more stupid than a rock!
Because of him we are having this attacks from assassins, such f#$%"@ beasts that call themselves "Al-Qaeda". Well, because of him and "great" governments like the spanish and the portuguese (my country) ones.
I dont know if in USA you are aware of that, but in this year, in June there will take place in Portugal a great sportive event: the Euro 2004 (european soccer championship with the best countrys playing on it). In such event, Portugal (whose government-not people- favored attack on Irak) will receive countrys like Spain and England. If i am not wrong the place will take event (the first day) in 11 June! Maybe there will be attacks in that day or in the days that Spain, Portugal or England will play.
I dont want to imagine what will happen in that time....it is to much for us to see what happened in 11 September, 11 March...we donr want to have another 11 day!
Nagual: sorry, I misunderstood you.
Personally, I think the attacks weren't made having in mind the elections. My opinion is they don't care if government win or lose elections... But, who knows... Perhaps people not re-elect pro-US was one of their objectives... (Again, I don't think so)
About Euro 2004... I didn't know it (even being Spanish, but soccer doesn't interest me too much), but there aren't good news... I only hope you won't have what we had here in Spain...
Sorry to say it, but it seems to me that:
Terrorists = 10, Spain = 0.
Now that they see how this aweful attack pays off, no doubt they will be more emboldened to attack throughout Europe. We expect a Quttacks in the USA and have expected them for over two years now.
I am truly saddened by the attacks in Madrid. But it
did get the voters there to change their government out of fear rather than merit.
Likely, we will see more of the same in many other places.[:(]
quote:
Why are people in Spain AND the UK ticked off? Because they knew that the UK or Spanish governments throwing their support in with America would make them targets for Islamic extremists.
While I agree that people are ticked off because the governements were not listening to them, I think that, it is (at least was) not out of fear of becoming a target that most Europeans were against attacking Iraq... It was more about the weak/false/fake reasons Bush/Blair used to "authorize" an attack on Iraq. At least that was my and my friends/family opinion... Especialy when you saw that the first thing they did was to secure and restart the oil production and ship it to the US... BTW, thousands of Iraqis civilians died under the so-called "chirugical" bombs. But it is supposed to be ok, since it is in the name of freedom! [xx(]
Kazbadan - in your opinion, how did the bombings actually affect people? I'm interested to hear if more people actually did vote against the Popular Party because of it, or if those who hated the war were going to vote that way anyway?
It just makes little sense to me to bomb a bunch of people who, for the most part, didn't support the war in Iraq. The Bali bombings were used as an excuse for John Howard to push Aussieland into war, I'm just wondering if there might be some other possible inentions for the recent bombing.
"May the souls of the victims rest in peace and i hope that the ones that have lost there family and friends can surpass this horrible moment of their lifes."
Amen. May your words be Blessed.
Rob
Inguma, i think that the attacks gived more union to people. We (humanity) are tired of the evil, of stupid fights for the power. I think that in Spain (i am not Spanish, but portuguese, althought my country is neighbour) the attacks had that effect. In a general way here in Europe, the lift-winger politicians are more interested in social problems than right-wingers, wich prefer to develop economy and other aspects of the country (even if that means "forget" people).
With the attacks people decided to vote in someone that is on their side, in the side of more humanitisc ideas (warning: i am not giving prefernce to any politician idea, just describig facts). They voted on politicians that would think not only in them but also in the others, in this case, irakian people.
Besides that, Aznar just before the elections (this is a new received today) tried to manipulate information, by convincing the president of a Spanish daily new (journal/magazine, i dont know the exact term/translation to english) that the attacks were made by ETA.
PP reason for acting like that is that they have fighted well against ETA. So, if the attacks were from ETA, in that case they would give a reason to people to vote in them: "Hey, we must be in the power for some more years since we are almost finishing this guys [ETA].".
If the attacks were from Islamic groups people would vote in the PSOE, that was against the attacks on Irak and the ocuppation. PP favored that and so, indirectly they "invited" terrorists.
The massacre in Madrid was so big and bad that people decided to show their disapointment to PP. People showed that they are the real force behind a country.
Ronaldo, too childish, gross and offensive a comment, even with two letters signed out. I don't know any woman who isn't offended by even a hint of that word. Please delete if from your vocabulary.
The ins and outs of the war in Iraq aside, if the USA got oil from Iraq, we paid for it with our tax dollars. And I say if because I do not know where it went. It was sold on the open market to whomever paid the price. We certainly do not see low gas prices here.
As to the person who said the lefties care more about people than the economy. Business 101 -- a poor economy means no jobs for anyone. For most people, no job means no money and no creature comforts like computers that we so enjoy. So you cannot equate wanting a good economy with not caring about the more human aspects of life.
Just ask anyone who has suffered a job loss. It is a gut-wretching experience. Some would say it is good for the soul. It might be good for learning some hiumility and respect for any kind of work, but not much else. Hopefully, such a drastic change of political policy in Spain will not result in economic losses and job losses for the millions of good people who live there.
As for the oil thing, it has never been about the oil. There is oil in other places and it is bought and sold on an open, world market.
That is not to say that we Americans are not gluttons for oil -- we are. Our cars prove that. But until someone invents a workable alternative, we will have to keep buying it. Most of us would like to get off the oil train to nowhere. But the alternatives are slow in coming and I am sure there are major companies that prefer we did not have an alternative. Sooner or later, they will go the way of the buggy whip makers as the idea, and the desire, for alternative fuels is out there.
One of the things the terrorists don't quite seem to understand is that you cannot kill an idea, be it helpful or harmful. They will continue to horrify the world. But until they begin to horrify their own families and their own people, they will continue to glorify what they do to some very young and impressionable people.
Peace to you all ... Jena
I don't want to start an US/oil/Iraq/Afghanistan discussion here but: Iraq is the 2nd largest oil reserve; and the US is craving for more oil; they are so dependant on OPEC, South America. They deseperatly tried to drill in Alaska, etc... Even in the US, Bush changed the law to allow more drilling in some protected areas...
Before the war: the US could not buy any from Iraq.
After the war: the US now controls the production; they can do whatever they want.
And a quick one about Afganisthan: The talibans refused to let an oil pipe go through their country. What did the US do as soon as they crushed the talibans...? They built the pipeline.
I could go on with Somalia, which local governement was opposed to some big oil companies. Tada, here comes the US! Let's drill! "Black Hawk Down" movie, sponsored by the US army... What a bad joke.
What do you expect from a governement that has personal interests in oil, military supplies and reconstruction...? I really hope Kerry will change all that!
I think that the interests of American government (i said government- not people, because about people i dont know what is the opinion) in the world are not altruistics. They can argue so but i only see the thirst for power and money.
About being left winged or right, it was an opinion about what happens in Portugal. I deducted (it is wrong by the laws of logic, i know) that something similar could happen in Spain too.
When i say that left winged care more about social problems i mean really that: in Portugal the right government it does not care about education (and Portugal has big problems with that) nor health institutions and other problems. As a result, portuguese people will not have any shcoolarization in order to have good professionals; we will not have healthy institutions that can take care about thousand of problems; besides that there dozens of problems (socials) that if were fighted we wouldnt have so much unemployment. When i say that right winged care about economics i mean that they care about great enterprises and wealthy institutions. As a result social problems (unemployment as one of them) are even bigger.
So, i hope that yo understand that things, in life are not so linear as you think. Besides that i dont like politics or any side of politic. Maybe it could seems as that, but not, it is just that some left winged politics here in my country are just more opened (sometimes) to some bad problems....but they dont know how to manage other problems.
About Irak i will just one thing: We cannot use war as an excuse to make war. Even worst it is to make war with the excuse to prevent war....Bush it was maybe one of the first one making that in History of humanity.
Maybe you can argue with things like "It was in the name of freedom (of irakians)" but that are bullsheets. As we know (only blinded people dont see that) that the objective was not that. Do you think that it worths to kill so many civilians as it did happen?
What about the monster Saddam? Do you knew that american government was the one that created him? What about the embargo that prohibited to enter many medicaments in Irak, but not other really dangerous things? And what about the fact that Irak was, with more of 90% of shure, desarmed of nuclear/bio/chemistral weapons? And about the fact that Scott Ritter and his team had they work "contaminated" because of the pressure and manipulation of USA gov.?
If America wanted to free people, they would act better by interciding in other countrys/regions in the world, not a country like Irak that it was poor (in the time of the attack).
Lets not forget about this points...
Sorry to americans but i am not attacking ou, just USA gov.. Oh, dont say that i am just attacking USA because it is not my country. No, no, Portugal it is my country and i make critics wo my gov. too. I am just a defensor of what i think it is good.
And will end here my discussion on the topic Irak.
One interesting upcoming movie might be Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9-11":
quote:
"You know the question a lot of people were asking after Sept. 11 -- 'Why do they hate us?' The question I want to ask is, 'Why DON'T they hate us?' -- and then take my camera around the world a bit and show what's done in our name," Moore says.
Terrorism is wrong, he says. But when he has finished cataloguing misdeeds by the U.S. government and corporations, viewers will feel lucky their country hasn't drawn more attacks.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0128-10.htm
As for the oil thing, it has never been about the oil. There is oil in other places and it is bought and sold on an open, world market.
Sorry Jena, but this is just naivety, is it an accident that Iraq happens to be the second biggest reserve of oil in the world?
Also is it is pure chance that America's two other main sources, Saudi Arabia and South America, are under some threat? The House of Saud is in danger of being toppled by Islamic fundis, (After all, Saudi Arabia is the home of Al Qaeda, never mind Iraq or Afghanistan). For this reason, in the interests of national security, the US Govt wants to secure a third major reserve, the second biggest in the world in fact, which will secure US interests for years to come.
Additionally, they will have a useful ally and base for troops should things go pear-shaped in Saudi Arabia; the US will be in a position to 'rescue' the Saudi oil reserves, should this occur.
This isn't rocket science; it's called 'securing national interests'.
That's just the way it is. Actually, if they just admitted it, then I don't think there would be a big problem; its when they try to disguise it in some kind of 'moral crusade', as if they only want to 'help the rest of the world out of the kindness of our own hearts', it is this sad attempt which pisses so many people off as it is seen as an insult to our intelligence.
Yes, oil is the prime motive; others play a part to a lesser extent: the need to 'hit out' at someone after 11th September attacks, any tin pot dictator who opposed US in the past will do. In this way, they feel they are getting some revenge for the attacks in NY. The US feels the need to do this, almost out of desperation, as they are finding it difficult to get their head around the fact that this enemy CANNOT be fought with force of arms. However, the Iraq war is a kind of Alka-Seltzer, it will make them feel better in the short term, as if they are achieving something against the terrorists; in reality of course, the effect will be the opposite. Such wars only encourage more hatred against the west, as the Spanish attacks prove.
One of the things the terrorists don't quite seem to understand is that you cannot kill an idea, be it helpful or harmful. They will continue to horrify the world. But until they begin to horrify their own families and their own people, they will continue to glorify what they do to some very young and impressionable people.
Yes, but you can also substitute 'terrorists' in the above statement for 'the west'; the west will also find it very difficult to 'kill an idea'.
Ultimately, there is a complete lack of understanding on both sides, and an inability by either party to communicate. Until BOTH sides change their stance on this, then this 'war' will go on for ever, just as in Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine. (NI is only making progress now that TALKING has begun).
Douglas
Hi, Gandalf,
I think the USA showed remarkable restraint after Sept. 11th. We didn't nuke anyone on Sept. 12th. I remember wondering who we were at war with and which country wouldn't be there tomorrow. I stayed at work, with my very frightened students, knowing full well that trying to get home would be impossible for many hours.
I doubt that any one expected us to react as we did with weeks of prayer services. If they are successful in the future, we might not be so quiet in our mourning.
I am of two minds about the Iraq war. I don't like war, but I do recognize that a good, perhaps unintended, result has come out of it. Saddam and his sons are no longer torturing, raping, and killing their own people. What they will do with their freedom remains to be seen. There are three different groups there who could just as easily start killing each other as they could make peace with each other. I don't know if they will come together as one people or not later this year. I hope that they do.
For someone who is of "the West", you seem to believe all the garbage about the West, and the USA, as being the cause of all these problems. Not so. The problems in that part of the world go back hundreds of years.
One thing I am not of two minds about is the terrorists and the terroristic mentality of irrational hatred of -- whomever. Take your pick, they have a long list and an even longer list of irrational reasons for what they do.
Nothing -- absolutely nothing, justifies their murders, be it in Spain, the USA, or the hundreds of other places they have targeted or would like to target. In the hopelessness of their life situations, they turn their rage on the outsiders, rather than their own leaders, who stay in power by keeping them miserable.
If "the west" were so bad, why are so many people from those oil rich countries doing everything they can to get into western countries, legally or illegally? They know they will have a better life in the west. The culture shock is difficult. Yet, they do move in large numbers. They work hard and make whatever adjustments they have to in whatever culture they find themselves in. If western ideas were so bad, I would think they wouldn't want to live in your country or mine.
Most of these people are escaping the tryanny in their own countries. That the terrorists want to spread that tyranny throughout the world, is the real tragedy. They will never accept any notion of live-and-let-live for others.
So what do you suggest the world should do about them? They are the thieves in the night who steal peoples lives. For them, human life is the cheapest of all things, including their own and the lives of the little children they put in uniforms covered in grenades to parade in the streets and in front of the TV cameras. Nothing makes that acceptable.
It is not a matter of understanding. I understand it quite well. I understand that your life and mine and the lives of everyone we know are nothing more than targets for these people. It doesn't matter to them who is on the trains or in the buildings they blow up. They are in love with killing and death instead of in love with life.
Many good people have died because of the terrorists. Nothing seems to stop them. Understanding them or appeasing them certainly hasn't stopped them.
I really don't care about their hatred of "the west". They don't have to not hate us. They don't have to associate with us. But, somehow, sometime, they do have to recognize, that everyone, regardless of their religion, politics, or country, has a right to exist. Just that. Nothing more, just recognize our right to exist.
Of course, if they kill us all, just what would they do then? They wouldn't know what to do without somebody to hate, somebody to plan on killing.
Actually, I didnt say 'all these things are the fault of the west'.
The point I was making is that we are *all* part of the problem.
The terrorists are just an extreme form of mainstream concerns. Until those concerns are addressed, no progress will be made. In relation to this, dealing with the 'symptoms' will solve nothing, we have to look at the underlying cause, which will take dialogue from both sides. I notice that nothing of the sort has taken place so far.
The 'war of terror' is the biggest joke to come out of America. Terrorists cannot be defeated, unfortunatly. sooner or later, talking has to start, on BOTH sides. the UK and Irish terrorists have olny recently recognised this.
Douglas
This morning (maybe 4 clock in USA) there was an horrible attack in spain that killed at least 200 people and 1000 are injured. It was made with synchronated explosions (5 or something) in the metro.
The Govern in Spain suspects from ETA, a terrorist group that wich the independence of a spanish region.
I am shocked with this attack and i want to leave here my vote of consternation to this attack.
May the souls of the victims rest in peace and i hope that the ones that have lost there family and friends can surpass this horrible moment of their lifes.