morals and forgiveness

[Arie]

Your making me think today fredhedd.  To me....morals is innate.  Even at a very young age I knew stealing was wrong.....no one had to tell me. Well....actually.....I think there's a gray area with alot of things.  For instance.....is birth control wrong?  Growing up Catholic I always thought it was.  But now....I don't think there's anything wrong with it.   I believe if your not hurting anyone then it can't really be wrong.  But I believe there are some stuff that is easy to decide that its wrong.  Like killing someone else.  No one has to be told that killing is wrong.  You just know it.  

With forgiveness......I don't think you have to ask God to be forgiven.  I mean if you think about it.........God already knows whats in our heart before we ask.   So....I think just wanting to be forgiven....and your truly sorry for whatever you did is enough.

So....if someone kills someone and they believe that all they have to do is ask and they'll be forgiven...I don't think it will work.   They have to be truly sorry to be forgiven.   Words are meaningless.....without the heart.  If you say "I love you" to someone in a mean ugly voice......do you think that they're going to give you a pleasant reaction?

[fredhedd]

thinkings what i like to make people do .  i often find myself posting things just for the sake of debate.   usually i don't even know the answers to the questions for myself.

[cainam_nazier]

My personal opinion.

   I believe the 50/50 rule for the most part.  In general you just know right from wrong, however I beleive that the line can become grey by what a person is taught.  I have always seemed to know the differance for me.  But I can see how a person who is exposed to "wrong thinking" can become confused or ignorant.
   What I mean by this is that yes most people know right from wrong but it is shaped by your beleifs, and your beleifs are learned through your parents, those you trust, and experience.  

   I personally don't beleive that man is naturally bad.  I beleive man is naturally neutral, one who looks out for themselves.  This does not make a person bad.  
   I also don't beleive it is up to god to forgive.  It is up to yourself and those who you harm through your actions.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.
http://www.prepaidliving.com/vip/David127385

[jilola]

Morality as it deals with things like not stealing etc are learned. A child takes things without placing any value on the act until the parents set limits and make the distinction.
But we all know when we have hurt or violated someone, most of us anyway. Sociopathy is something else.

Is morality innate in the teachers? I think the quesiton is how did the concept of morality arise in the first place. I think it's been the matter of discovering that some modes of behaviour are good for the individual and tribal survival. But after the leap was made it's the matter of teaching not being born with it, IMHO.
What about those who seem  to be what could be called "old souls"? I'm willing to concede that as humanity advances the concept of morality slowly becomes something we are born with.

As for forgivenes, honest mistakes aside, if we know we went wrong and honestly tried not to, in other woords despite our very best effort not to err (from whatever it is we err?) we are forgiven if we are willing to forgive another in a similar predicament.
But do we need to ask for forgivenesss from some higher entity? I don't think so. If we are to take the christian faith as a sample case, it says in the Bible that God knows our hearts and deeds, and elsewhere "What thou hast done unto the least of my.... thou hast done unto me" In other word if we forgive someone, we forgive God and if we forgive him he will do the same for us.
Religions aside, I think that if we can forgive others their blunders we can expect to be forgiven if we ask for it.

quote:more, can you abuse the forgiven thing assuming that it exists and how do you think it would effect the outcome of whatever the outcome is by thinking along those lines?

That bit I didn't quite understand.

2cents

jouni

[fredhedd]

i rambled there forgive me..i meant if you act out something that you know is wrong w/ the intention of just asking for fogiveness when it's over.

[amcturbo]

quote:Originally posted by fredhedd:
i rambled there forgive me..i meant if you act out something that you know is wrong w/ the intention of just asking for fogiveness when it's over.

Hi Fred,
That's an interesting question ... which was debated clear back in the 1st century, by early Christians.  Apparently, there were some Christians who thought that, since they have forgiveness in Christ, that it was a "free pass" to just go ahead and sin ... because after all, they're forgiven, so what's the difference?  These Christians were abusing their "freedom" and totally missed Jesus point of "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you" ... which is basically Karmic Law (what goes around, comes around).

I've learned first hand, that if you continue to commit acts that hurt others (specific others), that eventually, they won't be very willing to forgive you ... because your actions speak louder than words.

I also agree with David about BELIEFS.  They form the boundaries by which you differentiate amongst all things.  Because of BELIEFS, and EACH INDIVIDUAL having them, the *things* in Life aren't so CUT-AND-DRY.  If you look around you, you'll quickly see how both individual and group BELIEFS affect the world, both positively and negatively ... depending on belief and cultural acceptance of that belief.

quote:Originally posted by jilola:
What about those who seem to be what could be called "old souls"? I'm willing to concede that as humanity advances the concept of morality slowly becomes something we are born with.

How neat it is that you say this ... just last night, while dreaming, I was called an "old soul" by a young nurse giving me a check-up ... and that I have had many incarnations ... you'd think I would "have it all figured out by now" eh?!

Cheers!
Greg Taylor

"Whatever consciousness may be, it's not a small thing" - Ingo Swann
"Oh, I... ain't got no ... body" - David Lee Roth (Van Halen)

[jilola]

quote: i rambled there forgive me..i meant if you act out something that you know is wrong w/ the intention of just asking for fogiveness when it's over.

Oh ok. You wouldn't be forgiven. Unless... your lesson to learn were be that intentional badness is a no-no.

And another thing, good and bad are just labels. When we violate the right of another to learn their lessons and progress we do an absolute wrong. Anything else depends on the context.

2cents

jouni

[fredhedd]

what do you think, innate or taught?  and if taught, innate in the teachers?  

also gimme some opinions on what you guys think about being forgiven.  what do you think about doing something that you know is wrong but knowing that you are supposed to be forgiven for it if you ask?  after all it is in our nature to do wrong as well as right.  if their truly is a judgement, will all be forgiven, given the true nature of man? if there is a judge to judge it would make sense that the judge would be wise enough to understand that mistakes are made, right?

more, can you abuse the forgiven thing assuming that it exists and how do you think it would effect the outcome of whatever the outcome is by thinking along those lines?