The End of the Western World

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Nice post. Very true that change starts at home. A lot of people complain but few do anything to change it.

Governments rise and fall. The USA will too. Either it will go the way of the Roman empire and die out or of other great empires like Britian and just loose it power until it no longer has such a big upper hand. I think it all really depends on how foreign affairs are treated. Right now we don't have a lot of other nations that really care much for us and I cannot blame them. The USA really has treated some nations like crap in their deceitful dealings. Our government needs to give other nations more respect for it will not always be able to bully everyone around, especially if the world should ever unite against it.

[beavis]

shadowatcher "Countries develope like organisms."

And like orgasms. It starts out good, gets better later (when the economy develops), then theres an explosion (bombs), and suddenly the hooker wants to be paid or she'll kick your butt (other countries ticked at us).

"To withdraw we would leave a country in utter chaos, to stay would mean more American lives."

Screw the non-americans, right? They arent worth the crap on your shoe. Lets not even count them in the number of people killed.

[shadowatcher]

Yeah, but every Iraqi citizen we DONT help, turns into a terrorist[}:)]

[beavis]

americans are more terrorist than them. We pay for the bombs.

[shadowatcher]

I hear you[xx(]

[travelinbob]

I am not from the USA, But I am a friend of the USA. One of my friends from the USA asked why many people around the world hated the USA, and this is in short what I told him (I say all this things as a friend):

1- You are very provincialy arrogant. Example: Shadowwatcher says

quote:We have failed our duty as Americans, to prevent this war.

You say this as everyone on the World Wide Web and in this forum is from the USA. This forum was started by an Australian, not in the USA. This is also seen on small online businesses who dont even consider the posibility of selling outside the USA. Its like the rest of the world was not watching, or even existed. I once tried to buy some stuff from a small vendor online and he could not sell to me because his/her shopping cart software did not include other countries.[:O][?]

2- You are the most powerful and influential nation in the world today, yet your provincial attitude permeates your foreign policy. Your nation, like it or not, is THE LEADER OF THE WORLD, yet many of the policies are isolationist and ethnocentric. THIS DOES NOT WORK. You play favorites in the international arena (e.g. Israel). Your foreign aid is used as another weapon of foreign policy and not for development purpose. Foreign aid, although appreciated by nations like mine, has strings attached. And although in dollar amounts your are the second biggest donator in the world (Japan wins!!), when it is considered as a % of GDP, you don't even make the top 25. The US gives less then 0.1% of GDP in foreign aid, while on average the EU nations give around 0.4%, and Denmark gives more than 1% of there GDP. (Source: The Economist)

3- The historic Flip Flopping of alliances (e.g. Noriega, Hussein, the Muhajadeen) makes you look like a neurotic giant and makes everyone nervous and paranoid.

4- The image of the "ugly american" is very much alive around the world. I could tell you stories . . .. Just because countries like mine are poor, don't be surprised when you come down and see that we do have technology. Every small town yes has the image of the burro and all that crap, but they all have cybercafes, and digital cell phone access. And the big cities are not that different from yours. (Hell, I own a cybercafe).

5- And my personal pet peeve: THE WHOLE CONTINENT IS CALLED AMERICA, not just your country. That's why I ve avoided the term in this post.

Like I said, I say this as a friend of the USA[]. But freindship involves calling friends on their mistakes, and not kissing their butt.

[shadowatcher]

Well, this forum is in ENGLISH....which is the dominant language of the US. This post is about America, but it can also be applied to any moderinized nation. The US is just the farthest along its evolutionary path.

[travelinbob]

Fallenangel77

The Roman Empire is alive and well. But its now called the Vatican. My personal take on history, yes. But I think its correct.

The brits still have there empire of sorts. They call it the Commonwealth. Its no longer political, but Damn if its not economic.

[travelinbob]

shadowatcher

English is the dominating language, or lingua franca, around the world. Not just the USA. More english speakers in China then in the USA, or so they say. And the title of the thread you started is "The End of the Western World", which also includes the EU and our continent, as far as I know. Oh And the brits are a few THOUSAND years older as a people. They reinvented democracy in the 13th century, before the US existed. And other nations like Iceland have had a parlament since the begining of the LAST millenium (aka Althing).

But my point is that I do not think the US is at the end. Not at all. As any leader it has made mistakes, and many are being corrected. Democracy and Capitalism is alive and well in most of the western world. Yes, it still needs tweeking. The US is not dying, but coming of age perhaps.

And the reason I'm butting in is because an outside perspective sometimes helps dispell overexhuberance or, in your case, pessimism.

Cheer up. Your country is not dying, just changing.

[beavis]

"Cheer up. Your country is not dying"

damn

[shadowatcher]

Dont BS me like that. The us is dying. Its "Coming of Age" was the American Revolution. Its been dying since then....

[shadowatcher]

Also, I hate the US a lot more than you do....So dont BS me like I love it. I dont. Everything you said I agree with .My topic is directed toward Americans, thats why its the only country I talk about. If you want to read a non-American view, theres plenty out there...so stop bitching at me[8D].

[travelinbob]

Wow!! You missed my point completely!!

I DO NOT HATE THE USA at all (to bad you do). Or its people. I went to college in the States. I consider myself a friend your country. And no I do not want to read Anti amrican views. Your the one being antiamerican, not me and I haven't even been in your country in 7 years.

It's a shame if you are so pesimistic about your own country. ANd the American Revolution was the birth of your nation. You cannot come of age at birth?? It happened in 1776 and you did not even get your constitution until 1787. Read your own history. And read some world history while you are at it. How  provincial of you!!!

And yes Beavis. The United States of America is not DYing. If it takes a Honduran like me to make you understand so be it. Yes the US has made its share of foreign policy mistakes, but it has done a great job in other cases as well. Trust me. I see it from the outside and it looks good to me. Yes it needs improvement but it takes work and it can be done.

IT IS NOT bovine excrement!!! READ YOUR HISTORY!!!

[shadowatcher]

Spoken like a true brainwashed Honduran... Ok, I didnt mean the American Revolution, i meant the Civil War, (which is a revolution by the way). It all went downhill from there. You cant believe everything you hear in the media.

[shadowatcher]

Countries develope like organisms. They evolve, fight for resources, and are made up of thousands of units, people. Countries are probably the most complex organisms, but they are predictable. The United States has reached its twilight.

  Human beings as a whole prefer the most positive point of view. I myself find it much easier to accept that George Bush forced a war on Iraq to find Weapons of Mass Destruction, though common sense tells me otherwise. Lying to myself no longer can protect me from the facts that stand so clearly before me.

  We have failed our duty as Americans, to prevent this war. We have know entered a dire state of emergency in Iraq. To withdraw we would leave a country in utter chaos, to stay would mean more American lives. No person has the right to reduce sapient lives to numbers.

  What I can see so clearly now, that I couldnt see then, is that the conflict in Iraq is not a war. It is the testing of the waters. It is the first step in the ending of the great empire that was once America. It is the degredation of values that we all once stood for. It is our RIGHT AND DUTY to revolt in times when the government has repeatedly denied us of basic rights.

  Im not asking you to lead a charge on Washington, im asking you to think about what makes you American. What makes you a person. Would you stand up for the values that your ancestors died for? Or that your  brother died for in Iraq? Im asking you to lead a personal revolution inside yourself, to find the truth that only YOU can.


Shadowatcher.