The US Presidential Elections.

[Nay]

Yeah well Nay, you know me, Mr Mature on a stick with extra fried maturity and a healthy dollop of mature bloke sauce  
I dunno, there aren't many things which consistently get me angry, but the Bush's are one.

Iran - I dont think Dubya is stupid enough to actually attack a country that might genuinely have WMD's.....is he?? A scary thought.
Rob

Hahaha!  yeah I got cha.. but one thing I don't get is why all the complaints from people that don't even live here?!  Could it be...Oh, that you are getting media information that isn't being too kind to our President?  Which to me is really un-american.  

Frankly, if I lived some where else but here, I wouldn't stress myself out with all of it.  Maybe I'm just not up to date on this, but what happens here, does it really effect your life, when you live in a different country?  Ya know, the whole taxes, ss, and healthcare thing.

You're not upset about the Revolutionary war are you? lol   And don't forget we helped out in WWII..wonder how you'd sound with a German accent, not near as sexy as your accent now me thinks  

Nay

[Rob]

Hahaha! yeah I got cha.. but one thing I don't get is why all the complaints from people that don't even live here?! Could it be...Oh, that you are getting media information that isn't being too kind to our President? Which to me is really un-american.

Weeeeeeell Nay, when your president starts going around invading other countries, when he makes the world a less safe place for everyone by annoying most the Muslim world, when he burns the Kyoto treaty, arms the world, and consistently sides with corrupt and amoral corporations, etc etc then it becomes an issue for the world community not just the US. Its all kinda interconnected you know??? And the US is the most powerful country in the world, so its influence is very strong in all areas.
Besides I think that really......you just dont like our "bush bashing"! <sniggers>

Which to me is really un-american

Well thats good then as I'm not american!! But you should know that I really respect your founding fathers and the lofty principles your country was founded on, its just whats happened since then.

You're not upset about the Revolutionary war are you? lol And don't forget we helped out in WWII..wonder how you'd sound with a German accent, not near as sexy as your accent now me thinks

LOL
<Stricks tongue out at Nay>
you little minx you.....!

btw you know that mussolini (founder of fascism) once said: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"
- that means your government is, officially, fascist!!!! Not good not good......

[bitkari]

Nader.

[Nay]

Hehehe..I'm only going to quote and respond to one thing you said.

LOL
<Stricks tongue out at Nay>
you little minx you.....!

I looooooove being called a minx..how did you know?  

*Purrrrrrrrr* ~ Nay

[no_leaf_clover]

I don't know if anyone's made a reference yet, but Titor's messages are starting to seem more and more possible. Whether he was just trying to influence society, had a good idea of where it was going regardless, or actually was a time traveller as he said, his messages dealt a lot with the time we're in right now, around the 2004 elections.

He talked about civil war as a direct result of the events that are unfolding now.

Some stuff from http://www.johntitor.com/ :

"Does the current relationship between Arabs and Jews have anything to do with the coming war?

Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West as a result of degrading US foreign policy and consistency. This becomes apparent around 2004 as civil unrest develops near the next presidential election. The Jewish population in Israel is not prepared for a true offensive war. They are prepared for the ultimate defense. Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's neighbors the confidence to attack. The last resort for a defensive Israel and its offensive Arab neighbors is to use weapons of mass destruction. In the grand scheme of things, the war in the Middle East is a part of what's to come, not the cause."

"How and why do the Arabs Jews become entangled in the civil war of the U.S.A?

They are not directly involved but political situations are dependant on Western stability, which collapses in 2005."

"The Arab countries appear to have weapons of mass destruction. Do they use them against America?

Not against America but they are used against each other."

"I disapprove of war because I think it's immoral. What do you think?

I disapprove of murder. Man as a species is incapable of changing his nature through will alone and war is a tool of biology. The ability for war sleeps in each one of us and we must decide what we will do before the beast awakens. As for morality, again I point to the "universal" balance of good and evil. For every worldline where there is peace, there is a worldline that has destroyed itself.


(4) I'm glad to see it's so easy for to dismiss the Middle East. Yes, I suppose it is a no brainer but pretty soon it will be a "no arrmer" and a "no legger".


The year 2008 was a general date by which time everyone will realize the world they thought they were living in was over. The civil war in the United States will start in 2004. I would describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse. The conflict will consume everyone in the US by 2012 and end in 2015 with a very short WWIII."

"Why are you so interested in the Constitution?

After the war, the United States had split into five separate regions based on the various factors and military objectives they each had. There was a great deal of anger directed toward the Federal government and a revival of states rights was becoming paramount. However, in their attempt to create an economic form of government, the political and military leaders at the time decided to hold one last Constitutional Congress in order to present a psychological cohesion from the old system.

During this Congress, the leaders discovered and decided that coming up with a new and better form of government was nearly impossible. The original Constitution itself was not the problem it was the ignorance of the people that lived under it."



"Does anything happen in the year 2012? I've heard stories about the world ending.

In my 2012, I was 14 years old spending most of my time living, running and hiding in the woods and rivers of central Florida. The civil war was in its 7th year and the world war was three years away. Yes, there are unusual events in 2012 but they do not cause the world to end. Unfortunately, I have decided not to discuss events that you or I can do anything about. It is important that they be a surprise. Perhaps you are familiar with the story of the Red Sea and the Egyptians?"

....etc.

Really is some interesting stuff, considering all this came about prior to 9/11, and now we're entering the times he detailed the most. How much validity there is to what he said will start to become apparent in the next few years.

[cinnabardk]

Interesting post, no_leaf_clover !

I just found this (Outrage in Ohio: Angry residents storm State House in response to massive voter suppression and corruption): http://michiganimc.org/feature/display/7644/index.php

- could this be the beginning of something more ?

[Nagual]

Also on CNN... http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html

It's "funny" (not really) that the most "advanced" country in the world has so many problems with organizing an election...  There have been so many reports of electronic voting "bugs".  They can send people on the moon, program satellites to meet a planet in 10 years, explore quantum physics, etc...  but still fail to develop a simple multiple-choice voting program that can safely add votes...

So much for the champion of democracy...

[Rob]

Ok lets assume then that Bush did steal the election, as frankly all the facts seem to be pointing in that direction. Two good articles mentioned last (its interesting to note the mainsteam papers are picking up on a few things, but these "errors" only ever seem to add votes to Bush. Just another indicator).

Anyway - taken that as a given, does anyone want to make guesses for why? I mean - why now? Why are they so determined to get Bush in for a second term?
What did he achieve in his first term - put in place so 9/11 could occur in his reign and so he could then attack afghanistan and iraq, and do all those other nasty things that become possible when everyone in the US was terrified. So it could be argued that he just wants to continue on the "terrorist war" but thats really dragging, I think people are getting tired of all the rhetoric and lack of safety affirming action.
Perhaps this indicates there's gonna be another big terrorist attack? That'd certainly light his fire again, allow him to achieve all the rest of the things his cronies want.

I'm beginning to think more and more that Kerry was set up speifically as the fall guy. He might have even known he was going to "lose".

Rob

Ps Nay:
"I looooooove being called a minx..how did you know?"
LOL you need ask? tehehehe!!!

[cinnabardk]

Perhaps the answer is to be found in madness.

Looking back at the royal lunatics of history, this does not seem unlikely.

You can read about them here:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kvenjb/madmon.htm

- try reading about Caligula, or Nero.

[Nagual]

The Washington Post:
Evangelicals say they led charge for GOP
Churches cultivated grassroots, often beating party to the punch
By Alan Cooperman and Thomas B. Edsall

As the presidential race was heating up in June and July, a pair of leaked documents showed that the Bush-Cheney reelection campaign was urging Christian supporters to turn over their church directories and was seeking to identify "friendly congregations" in battleground states.

Those revelations produced a flurry of accusations that the Bush campaign was leading churches to violate laws against partisan activities by tax-exempt organizations, and even some of the White House's closest religious allies said the campaign had gone too far.

But the untold story of the 2004 election, according to national religious leaders and grass-roots activists, is that evangelical Christian groups were often more aggressive and sometimes better organized on the ground than the Bush campaign. The White House struggled to stay abreast of the Christian right and consulted with the movement's leaders in weekly conference calls. But in many respects, Christian activists led the charge that GOP operatives followed and capitalized upon.

Etc...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6431260/

[wisp]

Nagual,
Bush isn't suppose to have a strategy for votes? This sounds like it was a good plan if this is so. I doubt if any of these Christian groups had a threat against them if they chose not to vote for him. Church affiliation is common. It doesn't sound like a big deal. The important thing, he won....hooray!

Nay,
I enjoyed your words about this unpopular man and country. Your posts are encouraging to me, and many more I am sure.

[Covelo]

I would just like to say that war usually creates more war and peace usually creates more peace and that when I see or hear Bush talking I can clearly see that this guy has fun going to war and will probably do it as much as he can.  I personally don't agree or like this kind of a leader in charge of my country, as things could easily get way out of hand if he and his war proponents are not slowed down or stopped soon.

All be well...

Covelo

[Nay]

Hi Wisp, nice to have someone whom sees it from my point.    

I found this article by Mark Styne today, whilst agreeing with it, there was a few things Brian Reade from the Daily Mirror said that I didn't agree with.  And wow, what a excellent example of stereotyping..

Inaugurating the new second-term outreach was Brian Reade in the Daily Mirror, who attributed the President's victory to: "The self-righteous, gun-totin', military-lovin', sister-marryin', abortion-hatin', gay-loathin', foreigner-despisin', non-passport-ownin' rednecks, who believe God gave America the biggest d**k in the world so it could urinate on the rest of us and make their land 'free and strong'."

Well, ok I'm a bit self-righteous, but not as much as Brian Reade apparently.  

I'm not gun-totin', actually hate holding them now as a adult, but was raised around them and can shoot skeet or kill a deer if need be, but guess I'll save that for when the end of the world comes.  

I'm proud to say YES, I am military-lovin'!! We are a military family and love our country.  

As for sister-marryin', I think that would be just down right awkward for all involved.  

Abortion-hatin'..well, I'm pro-choice, sooo...  

Gay-loathin'...nahhhh, sheesh, that means I'd loose some friends and relatives.  

Foreigner-despisin'.. only those whom kill, starve, and control their own people.  

Ok, ok, I don't have a passport..but what the heck does that got to do with anything, it doesn't mean I don't wish I could visit places that involved needing one.   And I don't consider myself a redneck but my husband DOES believe he has the biggest ummmm...*cough* ya know...so how in the world can the whole of America have the biggest one when he's sporting it?  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/11/07/do0704.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/11/07/ixop.html

Covelo, I understand all these people whom hate war, but where would WE be had it not been for people standing up to fight for our country and others?   What is so wrong with us helping another country whom wants to be free!  contrary to what the media is saying     I've heard totally different stories from actual military men that are out there serving our country.    War is hell, and not pretty but my personal belief is it is sometimes necessary.

And goodness on this very sight we are always talking about things happening for a reason.   I believe all these people who are dying or have died in wars, chose to have the life they had, and along with that comes their deaths.  For whatever reason, be it karma,  or a lesson....it was meant to happen.

Of course my humble opinion..

Nay

[cinnabardk]

There isn't really a consensus reality in America anymore, is there ?

If so, how will any kind of reconciliation be at all possible in the Divided States of America ?

[Covelo]

Nay said,  

"I understand all these people whom hate war, but where would WE be had it not been for people standing up to fight for our country and others?  What is so wrong with us helping another country whom wants to be free! contrary to what the media is saying  I've heard totally different stories from actual military men that are out there serving our country. War is hell, and not pretty but my personal belief is it is sometimes necessary."

Nay,

I never said I hated war, as I have found that hating anything isn't healthy.  I think it is important to stand up for yourself when your country is personally attacked, but there has never been any connection to Iraq in this way that I am aware of.  I also think we have gone way too far over there and continue to do so, as it is getting to be more and more of a blood bath as the days go on.  Killing other people is not the answer to these situations.  I would suggest that working together with them by asking the general population what they want us to do would be a better approach.

My feeling is that the longer we keep killing other people as a general policy there we are going to suffer the consequences as the rest of the world continues to turn against us, which has been the case ever since we went over there and started blowing things and many people up.  If you think about it we are doing so much damage to the whole infrastructure of that country that the whole population is going to suffer for a long time.  I don't think we're doing them any favors at all and I don't think even anywhere close to 1/2 of their people want us to do these things.

I think we need to be thinking more about our standing with the rest of the world here and continue to make better friends with the rest of the world, instead of more enemies as these actions continue.  If we want to have a world of peace we had better start being a better example ourselves.

Let us all wake up and smell the roses and see how foolish it is to keep spreading more attacks there or anywhere for that matter.  

I wish all to be well and continue to open up their perspectives to higher and brighter places as we collectively create the future for all involved in this world.

May we all find peace...

Covelo

[atalanta]

Nay, you are obviously selective in what you hear and remember.  

Firstly, any link to the Telegraph newspaper says it all.  I buy that newspaper and in my country just before the Howard elections, one of the things I noticed was how many pro-Howard people seemed to be suddenly writing to the newspaper.  Of course I knew not to believe everything I read in newspapers, but I was delusional enough to believe that there would be at least even space given to both parties.  No, it wasn't, almost all stories of Howard were positive and almost all reader's letters were pro-Howard, I am talking about about 80%.  It really made me realise how powerful Murdoch and the media is and how easily people could be manipulated.

Secondly, although I am no great historian, I believe that the Israel/Palestinian problem is a creation of the UK and USA.  It was at their instigation and with their military support that these two groups were separated thus causing the current problems.  America chose to support Jews over Moslem's because of its Judeo-Christian outlook and in doing so has turned a blind eye to the murder and starvation of the Palestine people.  In general, America creates problems and then blames them on others.  There would be no terrorism if it wasn't for the fact that America finds it acceptable to destroy lives and countries through unfair trade agreements.  If people in these countries had the things that most Americans take for granted, ie, food, medicine, education, work, there wouldn't be such hatred of this country.  All these people have wanted is an even go at having a chance at life and the American government does all it can to make sure it doesn't happen and then has the cheek to turn around and accuse these people of being jealous, fanatical, etc.  The American government is in Iraq for two reasons only.  Firstly, oil, it wants to position itself to make sure that as world supply runs out which from memory will be happening over the next 50 years, it can get as much as it wants.

Third, you obviously haven't seen the programs we have in Australia of soldiers and their families demanding to come home, of soldiers and journalists saying that the people do not want America there any more, of the Iraqi people who wanted to be saved from Saddam and who consider themselves moderate, saying they now feel like they have not been saved but invaded by another Saddam, of soldiers mistreating and torturing civilians and Iraqi military personnel.  Etc...  I don't know how anyone can watch the bodies of children and say that a war is an acceptable form of debate.

I have American friends, I don't hate Americans or America, I would love to travel there, etc.  However, even in my country, I and many others are starting to feel like just another state of America.  We are shown American TV, eat American foods, we are becoming obese like Americans, our government seeks American approval and backing, etc.  I don't hate Americans but I hate that I am slowly being forced to become American.

[Jenadots]

Dear Atalanta....no one if "forcing" you to be American in your culture or your values or your lifestyle.  That is your choice.

You could always give up seeing American movies and listening to American music.  And anything else that you consider somehow influencing you.  

That said, your country has a unique culture and environment.  The future of it can be whatever you, collectively, want it to be.  

If it has become too Americanized, just treasure your local culture and create a future that isn't.  

Sort of take the best and leave the rest.

[Nay]

Nay,

I never said I hated war, as I have found that hating anything isn't healthy.

That is a very safe answer.  I hate war, too, yet I see what role it must take.  To be honest, I think you said that whole 'hating anything isn't healthy' is because...well, like I said safe.

I think it is important to stand up for yourself when your country is personally attacked, but there has never been any connection to Iraq in this way that I am aware of.

I might be wrong, but Saddam paid the families of sucide bombers 25,000. (ea.)  to give up the souls of their sons or daughters for each bombing, they also provided training camps for "Islamic Militants", I'd say, that is being connected.

I also think we have gone way too far over there and continue to do so, as it is getting to be more and more of a blood bath as the days go on.

It was a blood bath BEFORE we got there.  I'd go so far as to say it's been a blood bath since before Jesus was tacked onto that cross.  

Killing other people is not the answer to these situations.  I would suggest that working together with them by asking the general population what they want us to do would be a better approach.

Working together with whom, to make a better approach?

My feeling is that the longer we keep killing other people as a general policy there we are going to suffer the consequences as the rest of the world continues to turn against us

The rest of the world turning against us?  Are you out to win a popularity contest?   Since when did you need to listen to other countries to tell YOU how to feel in this country?

has been the case ever since we went over there and started blowing things and many people up.  If you think about it we are doing so much damage to the whole infrastructure of that country that the whole population is going to suffer for a long time.  I don't think we're doing them any favors at all and I don't think even anywhere close to 1/2 of their people want us to do these things.

I disagree, BECAUSE OF the "people" you talk about,  I have heard about things,  straight from the horses mouth, and not the bias medias horses mouth.   Their hospitals are better, schools have kids in them again, people aren't afraid to walk on the streets, they have electricity and running water, and not to mention their own, excuse the pun, Democratic voting system now!  WOW, check it out, they are becoming a free country!!!   Why does this tick off sooooo many people?

I think we need to be thinking more about our standing with the rest of the world here and continue to make better friends with the rest of the world, instead of more enemies as these actions continue.  If we want to have a world of peace we had better start being a better example ourselves.

Once again, there ya go with the 'thinking more about our standing with the rest of the world'  Can you form an opinion without thinking what other countries would think?.  

I wish all to be well and continue to open up their perspectives to higher and brighter places as we collectively create the future for all involved in this world.

May we all find peace...

I completely agree with you.  

[Nay]

Dear Atalanta....no one if "forcing" you to be American in your culture or your values or your lifestyle.  That is your choice.

You could always give up seeing American movies and listening to American music.  And anything else that you consider somehow influencing you.  

That said, your country has a unique culture and environment.  The future of it can be whatever you, collectively, want it to be.  

If it has become too Americanized, just treasure your local culture and create a future that isn't.  

Sort of take the best and leave the rest.

I have to go with what Jendots is saying, in that unique wonderful way of saying....if it doesn't appeal...don't harp on it and go on.   :

atalanta, I don't have selective hearing....well, not too much, not anymore than you do.  I just don't understand why it means soooooo much to you?  I'm sorry the media has made you think otherwise..but I'm still trying to get an answer as to how our countries problems mesh in with yours?  Everyone is dogging the USA, yet...they aren't really connected, why is that?

I LIVE in the United States and can't figure that one out...

Nay

[atalanta]

Nay, the idea that what happens to America and what America chooses doesn't effect the rest of the world is a myth.  The reason Americans need to think about the rest of the world's opinions is because we are all living on one planet and we depend on each other.  When one country has such power to control, manipulate other communities, there is going to be a problem.  America has a right to determine its own path, but unfortunately, it is also determining the path of other countries with it.  I find it curious that you are on a site which I think aims to make people aware of our interdependence and relatedness, our Oness, etc, and yet you think somehow America does not need to bother with how it effects the rest of the world.  I think it is this attitude which is causing the rest of the world to effect America now.  This is the very seed of every destructive act including war, the belief that we can do what we want and to hell with everyone else.  In psychological terms it is called Narcissism.

Please don't think I am angry about this, I am not, I am concerned, alarmed at times but not angry.  I also don't hate America or Americans.  There is a great deal of things to be proud of in America and Americans.  My concern is centred mainly around the political system it has which I consider is corrupt and its corporations which includes the media.  I believe the reports that suggest that the Saudi Arabian royal family has bought George Bush's soul.  I believe that the media is extremely biased presenting a positive picture of the war when that is not the case.  We know its not the case because even today there were new bombings in Baghdad.  It is a fallacy to think that Iraq is going to become this wonderful new Democracy and that all the other Muslim countries will follow.  You can't force Democracy on people, they have to want it and the simple fact is that most of them don't.  The simple fact is that in order to make any dent in the Middle East, that America is going to have to spend decades in this country to try and turn it towards its way of thinking.  It cannot just recreate one country overnight, nor can it allow it to be the only one recreated.  In order to have any lasting cultural change, it will have to 'introduce' its ideology to surrounding countries as well.  This is going to make Vietnam look like a short tour of duty.  And after all this, will it stop the suicide bombers, etc.  The answer is no.  

I find it bizarre that on this site, some people are willing to believe the most twisted and weird conspiracy theories, but can't see what is staring them in the face.   They are willing to believe aliens crashed into the pentagon, the president is a reptile, but not that their government may be corrupt and doing things that may bring the entire world to the brink of destruction.

As for the idea of my staying away from American products and culture, I don't mind small doses of it, but we are awash with it here and that is difficult.  Its a bit like GM foods.  You can avoid buying Canola for example, but it is hard to avoid it when other foods have traces of the stuff in it and 80% of products in stores have traces of GM foods.  Luckily here it isn't so bad, yet.  Its not that I don't like American things, so I don't feel like I need to avoid American things, its that it is becoming disporpotionate to our own stuff.  Its like, I love milkshakes, but if I went into a store and that is all they sold, it would be a problem.

[no_leaf_clover]

I live in the United States!  

That is a very safe answer. I hate war, too, yet I see what role it must take. To be honest, I think you said that whole 'hating anything isn't healthy' is because...well, like I said safe.

I once saw an interview with a survivor of the Holocaust who said her granddaughter would sometimes say she hated a certain kind of food, or etc., and the woman would tell her that, no, she may dislike something, but hate is what the SS felt towards the Jews, what drove them to throw live babies into the air and use them for target practice. Ever since I saw that interview I started correcting myself whenever I would slip and say I hated something. Hate indeed isn't good for anyone. :/

Just something I thought somebody might get a kick out of.

It was a blood bath BEFORE we got there. I'd go so far as to say it's been a blood bath since before Jesus was tacked onto that cross.

After the crusades, the Middle East was relatively peaceful until the World Wars, especially WW2 when we decided to put a bunch of Jews onto Muslim land and give the Jews weapons and tell them the land was theirs. From there on things got pretty bad. Recent diplomacy is turning Muslims more and more against the US.

Working together with whom, to make a better approach?

The UN. This is where Bush's poor diplomatic policies come into play. And if I remember correctly, he didn't even want to go into Iraq because Saddam was a bad guy! The four words I remember hearing most often were 'weapons of mass destruction' but I think you could fuse them into one: oil. And yes, we have seized oil fields since our invasion, and Halliburton has made quite a bit of money. The whole 'Saddams a bad ruler' thing wasn't really popularized until some time passed with no WMDs. Frankly, our government as a whole has never displayed much active concern against brutal rulers until it's too late. We've even put one into power and given him refuge after revolt cast him out. Bush especially is not exactly your understanding human-rights activist, as is evident with his anti-gay and sexist policies, not to mention the political prejudices evident from the website representing him during the elections. Yes, we were attacked on 9/11, but by Saddam? Not only did Saddam have nothing to do with 9/11, the 'harboring terrorists' excuse doesn't work either - because what Iraq was doing for terrorists was nothing compared to how other countries in the region were harboring them, especially Iran (which is also believed to have WMDs!)! Don't be surprised if we invade them next, though. Maybe another terrorist attack will do the trick. :/

The rest of the world turning against us? Are you out to win a popularity contest? Since when did you need to listen to other countries to tell YOU how to feel in this country?

I think that's how Saddam felt!

The only difference is that instead of having to worry about some super hero of the world to come valiantly destroy us, we have to worry about large-scale terrorism, as well as increasing political division (even internationally as we see now) as people either realize what the Bush Administration authorized was a totally retarded or extremely immoral set of actions or else become right-wing zealots developing prejudices against members of opposing political parties in a manner reminiscent of fascism. The word 'liberal' today is derrogatory and even used on its own as political slander. This alone is a sign of our times, because this country was raised on liberal ideologies. It's what the Declaration of Independance and Constitution are based on. The original idea was that the government would interfere in our lives as little as possible as to allow as much personal freedom as possible without authorizing behaviors infringent upon the rights of other human beings (the big exception to this being slavery, which of course was dealt with some eight decades later). There was a heated debate in our country when government money was first used to finance roadbuilding(!), as the right for the government to do this wasn't explicitly granted in the Constitution. Since then we've had a mandatory DRAFT for a war in a country that posed absolutely no threat to us! And that was decades ago!! We are not meant to be a world mediator. We are a single country, and our constitution is set up so that we are best when looking after ourselves.

But I've gotten off subject (so easy to do with so many interconnected issues). It isn't just what people think, it's how people are thinking and what they're doing as consequences of these ways of thinking.

I disagree, BECAUSE OF the "people" you talk about, I have heard about things, straight from the horses mouth, and not the bias medias horses mouth. Their hospitals are better, schools have kids in them again, people aren't afraid to walk on the streets, they have electricity and running water, and not to mention their own, excuse the pun, Democratic voting system now! WOW, check it out, they are becoming a free country!!! Why does this tick off sooooo many people?

For one reason, our citizens are being killed on a daily basis for this to take place. Also, Iraqi citizens are also dying on a daily basis, and we've attracted terrorists into the country who are now bombing sites similarly to bombings carried out regularly in Israel. Terrorism wasn't a problem when Saddam was in office, nor were American casualties. Again, Saddam was a bad guy but that isn't why we went into Iraq, and even if it was, such an act is unconstitutional and really should be mediated via the UN. Maybe the reason why the UN has been so reluctant to forcefully remove Saddam from power has something to do with what's happening to our soldiers at this very moment.

Once again, there ya go with the 'thinking more about our standing with the rest of the world' Can you form an opinion without thinking what other countries would think?.

Again, our policies are affecting the whole half-civilized world.

I wish all to be well and continue to open up their perspectives to higher and brighter places as we collectively create the future for all involved in this world.

May we all find peace...

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  

[Covelo]

Nay and all,

I'm not going to spend any more time on this topic here, as I see that it is just kind of going in circles and not reallly getting anywhere.  The only thing I might mention is that hating anything isn't healthy and is something to be considered.

All be well...

Covelo

[Jenadots]

The USA and England did not decide to put the Jews into Palestine after WWII.  They decided to put themselves there as their traditional homeland.  The Brits did everything they could to keep the Jewish refugees from flooding into what was then called Palestine.  

Jewish leaders then petitioned the UN for a statehood and got it. Palestine was divided into Jordon and Israel.  Israel did not require that Muslims leave.  Many did and became the Palestinian refugees - the same refugees that the rest of the Arab world refused to take in ever since.   Some contries did take them in as laborers, but rarely have they been allowed citizenship in those other Arabian countries.  Just visitor workers, even tho many of them have been visitor workers for 50 years.  

As for the oil thing -- where is it?  We don't have it as my last visit to the gas pump proved.  We do not have to invade any country to get oil.  We just have to be willing to buy it at whatever they decide to charge.  So the oil argument doesn't hold up.

As for the media giving us a rosy picture of things in Iraq, where is that?  Not here.  We rarely hear about the schools being built, the hospitals being rebuilt, the utitilities being rebuilt after decades of neglect, or the food, medicine, and other goods being distributed.  

The Kurds in northern Iraq seem quite happy running their own affairs and things are peaceful there as in other places.  

Yes, it is open season on any Westerner in parts of Iraq.  Every terrorist in the area is or wants to be there.  Some of the beheadings were done by Jordanians, not Iraqi's.  

And nay is right in saying there has been bloodshed in that part of the world for hundreds of years.  The Shites and the Sunnis started going at it right after Mohammed's death and have rarely stopped since.  

Most Iraqi's, like most people anywhere, want peace and prosperity.  If they would make peace with each other, they can very likely have it.  Whether they have a democracy or not is difficult to say as it is a part of the world where that is considered a new idea, and perhaps not an entirely right one.  Freedom is a scary proposition.  It is a whole lot easier to be told what to do and think than to actually decide it for yourself.  It is also a messy business as everybody gets to express their thoughts and opinions and to vote.  

I think part of the problem was over-expectation that everything would be wonderful overnight.  It takes time to set up a new government and write a constitution.  Thus far, no Iraqi Thomas Jefferson has arisen - because Saddam killed anyone who might actually have that talent and ability.  He tolerated no one who questioned his authority.  

But someone will, eventually, put together a new Iraqi government that is acceptable to most of the people there.  

Perhaps the solution is a 3 independent state Commonwealth of Kurds, Sunni and Shite states.   In any case, it would be a real shame if the Iraqi nation descended into Civil War and any form of totalitarian dictatorship because of outside terrorists and inside tyrants who do not want the people to have any freedoms or choices.

More importantly, I think the one thing we didn't hear in this election was a vision for the future of the USA.  No one actually asked us, the citizens, if we wanted to be a super-power or the world's 911 for everything.

I would guess if it was actually put to us as a referendum, most of us would say NO.....we do not want to be that.  

I did have not heard anyone in our government address the issue of where are we going and what kind of nation do we want to become in the future.  We lack a vision.  We lack a direction.  In some ways we lack a frontier and an American without a frontier or the idea of one seems not quite whole.  

We are a part of the world's community.  But in many ways, I beleive we have neglected our own country of communities - paid too much attention to the world beyond our borders and not enough to what we are creating within them.  It is not really that we have lost our way in the world, it is that we seem to be at a crossroads and must create a new vision - a new path for the future.  

As a group of citizens, I would say that most of us do not want to become the rulers of the world.   Because of the fall of the Soviet Union, we have become the only superpower almost by default.  No one expected that change to happen so fast.  It was almost a surprise when it did.  

And we are still saying Now what?  George Washington said beware of foreign entanglements.  That kind of thing dominated the past century and we must ask ourselves is that what we want for the next one?  Most of us would say no.  None of us want any more Americans dying in foreign wars.  After a almost a century of that, I would say we have had enough.  

The problem is how do we get anyone in the government, or anyone who wants to run for President to even discuss the issue?  

The media focuses on scandals and dirty laundry from decades ago.  The political parties focus on hate, half-truths, outright lies, and manipulating the public with all sorts of fears.  The corporations focus on being lobbyists and influencing Congress to get what they want without a thought to the public good.  And "We the people", feels so overwhelmed and distrustful of what we see and hear, that we don't demand better treatement from any of them.  We don't even expect it anymore.  

I kept waiting for either one of the candidates to talk about  the long-term good of the country - and no one did.  They live in a four year framework while the rest of us live in a life-time framework.  

Presidents come and go, but this country needs to have a new direction, a new vision of itself and its responsibilities to its own citizens as well as its place and role in the world.  I would vote for any candidate who begins to talk about that next time.  

Do you think there is a chance of it??

Sorry for the rant, but I get so frustrated with the candidates and the Congress.

[Fyrenze]

Jenadots,

Some good points.

Presidents come and go, but this country needs to have a new direction, a new vision of itself and its responsibilities to its own citizens as well as its place and role in the world. I would vote for any candidate who begins to talk about that next time.

But it'll take huge shifts to bring stuff like this about, and I would be incredibly surprised if in 4 years a candidate brought up long term stuff. Republicans know what they want, which is ok by too many people who are happy with the way things are, and the Democrats are no good at campaigning and getting people behind them. Add to that the fact that, as I recently said in another thread, societies tend not to look well upon people who speak their opinion, and what do you get? As I said, it seems like a major change is needed. And not just here in the States, but all over.

Know what's scary? The Bush Administration always talks about this "post-9/11" world and to me that's a crock of *edit*. First of all, it is tiring for them to play the 9/11 card all the time. Yeah it was a horrible thing, and there's much more to be said and I in no way mean to belittle it, but it was several years ago, already. It's in the past. Let's not dwell. For a while we all united and there were some changes, and the administration loves to use it in order to pass just about any restrictions of freedoms they care to (I'm aware this is an exaggeration, but obviously I don't like the Bush Administration). But we're as divided now as ever, and I don't see any long term improvements. Are you really going to tell me the removal of Saddam is such an improvement? First of all, I believe he would have been removed sooner or later with or without a 9/11. Second, there are plenty of fascists and despots just waiting for the opportunity to take power. And I also think that maybe Americans tend to be just a bit nearsighted when they talk about the rest of the world wanting to be free. This may be true, but who are we as Americans to go around "freeing" countries that don't want our help?

Oh right, so the scary thing. If 9/11 didn't bring about those supposed changes, what'll it take?

Here's to those world changes that some people seem to think have already started. I've yet to see much evidence of it.

By the way, this may seem opinionated. Good, I am. I love opinions. Tell me yours. Use your voice.

- Mark

[atalanta]

My sister just sent this to me from her work.  She doesn't know about the discussion we have been having so I thought it was a nice bit of synchronicity for her to send me this.  I think it is hilarious but Republicans may not think so.

http://www.imgag.com/product/full/ap/3067907/graphic1.swf

And nay is right in saying there has been bloodshed in that part of the world for hundreds of years. The Shites and the Sunnis started going at it right after Mohammed's death and have rarely stopped since.

Most Iraqi's, like most people anywhere, want peace and prosperity. If they would make peace with each other, they can very likely have it.

This sounds contradictory, they have been at war for hundreds of years and in the second paragraph, they want peace and prosperity.  Maybe they don't want peace, maybe they like their way of dealing with disputes and they don't like the kind of peace and life that Westerners have decided for them.  There is only so much Jerry Springer type freedom and morality that the world can take.  Maybe they prefer the devil they know than the devil that they don't.  There are great things about America, but there is also things like high rates of violence, sexual promiscuity, psychological problems, such as drugs and alcoholism, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, not to mention suicide.  I don't have any stats but what is the bet that many of those problems don't exist or are very minor in these Muslim countries.  If America wants to hold itself up as the jewel of democracy, then it needs to show the world that it is successful in ways other than monetary.  It needs to show the world that it has compassion, is honesty and has high standards of ethics, morality and spirituality.  Otherwise, all is doing is offering one devil for another.

Apart from this, it still doesn't answer why the American government thinks it has a reason to go in there.  Let me put it to you another way, the Saudi Arabians believe in stoning women to death for the slightest misdemeanor, they also behead a number of people each week in a market place atmosphere, women are not allowed to drive or go into certain shops, etc.  At the same time, the Saudi's are linked to several organisations who are financially supporting terrorism and in fact Osama and many of the terrorists stem from that country.  It would make sense then to stem the flow of money from that country and to seek the terrorist training schools and terrorists in that country.  There are desperate people in that country who are losing their lives as well, why doesn't the American government get serious with that country since its all about compassion, self protection and not about oil?

I did have not heard anyone in our government address the issue of where are we going and what kind of nation do we want to become in the future. We lack a vision. We lack a direction. In some ways we lack a frontier and an American without a frontier or the idea of one seems not quite whole.

Well said.  I think both America and Australia have lost their vision of who they are and who they should be serving.

Israel did not require that Muslims leave. Many did and became the Palestinian refugees - the same refugees that the rest of the Arab world refused to take in ever since.

Israel did require Muslims to leave.  I am not justifying the terrorist acts of the Palestinians, however, there is an expansionist vision that the Jews have which does not include Muslims or any other religious groups.  There are many right wing Orthodox Jews who do not want Christians there but who tolerate them only slightly better than Muslims.  Many Muslims left under threat and duress and many were forced off their land into these refugee camps.  As for other Arab countries taking them in, why should they?  They didn't create the problem and they are poor, resource deprived countries, why should they take in these people.  In my rich country and state, despite being rich, we lack water, if these people had turned up on our door, we would have to turn them away.  There is a certain tone in what you are saying here, is it that you think that these people are not worthy or rejects and that is the reason other countries aren't taking them in.  I am not presuming anything, just asking for clarity.

As for the oil thing -- where is it? We don't have it as my last visit to the gas pump proved. We do not have to invade any country to get oil. We just have to be willing to buy it at whatever they decide to charge. So the oil argument doesn't hold up.

Environmentally our world is beginning to run out of oil.  From memory of scientific documentaries, it is only a matter of decades before this happens.  Therefore, whoever positions themselves to control this oil will not only have resources, but will also control other countries.  No one to my knowledge said that the day America steps into the country will be the day that America became flooded with free oil.  This is a longterm strategic step which is going to occur over the next couple of decades.  Its the American government making its presence known in the Middle East.

Just as an example of the type of things that are going on, as we all know many buildings were destroyed when America dropped bombs on Iraq.  The Iraqi people have been rebuilding.  However, they have been forced to use American contractors who are incredibly expensive instead of their own people.  The American government forbids them to use anyone other than their own contractors.  So the Iraqi people are forced to pay American builders higher amounts of money, to build buildings that American planes brought down.

I am curious, what are Americans paying for their petrol these days?  In Sydney we are currently paying $1.10 per litre and its expected to rise to $1.50 by sometime next year.