The US Presidential Elections.

[cainam_nazier]

Greetings.

As the US Presidential Elections draw near I find myself more and more confused about who to vote for.  Personally I think that Bush has done an okay job.  There are a few things that I don't like about him or the way in which he has handle a couple of things.  But the more I hear about Kerry the less I like him as well.

In discussions here and else where it has become very apparent to me that people outside of the US seem to have a better grasp of our politics than the people who live here.  Myself included sadly.

So getting down to my question.

For all of you outside the US, Who would you vote for and why?  

Naturally every one is welcome to respond but I would really like to hear from all of you who live outside the US.

[Archnea]

I am a US citizen but I will put my two cents in. Kerry has my vote although I am not overtly fond of him either. I think Bush has some nerve to claim he's Christian. He has done a very poor job of running this country.

People like me who are physically disabled have more trouble getting medical care. I am on Medicare but my last visit to the hospital cost me $800 and I can barely feed my kids. When I have to go in for my surgery who knows what they will charge me then. Co pay on my medication for high blood pressure is to way to much. I had to go a few days without it last month because I didn't have the money.

I also think all war is barbaric. I felt like he deceived everyone with his reasons for going to war. What happened to, "Thou shalt not Kill?" If he is such a good Christian why isn't he showing it? If I wrote all my reasons I'd fill a book.

I don't wish the man ill but I didn't vote for him and I won't vote for him this time either.

[cinnabardk]

I would not vote for either of the two members of Skull & Bones. If you need to ask why, and you have an open, inquiring mind, then you need to read David Icke. Or do some serious Internet research.

Not voting is approving of the status quo. Voting for either of the two is supporting the status quo.

[Manix]

Well, it doesn't look like I voting for either at this point...I can't find my stupid voters card!

Should the card choose to make an appearance, I would vote for Bush. I dont keep up with politics, never have and don't plan to start. So I'll go with what my instincts tell me. There's something about Kerry that I really don't care for. So, using that highly scientific analysis , I'd prefer to keep the current idiot we have, rather than break in a new one. Besides, I'm curious to see if Bush ever finishes what he started.

<To Self: now where did I put that stupid card...>

[WalkerInTheWoods]

In discussions here and else where it has become very apparent to me that people outside of the US seem to have a better grasp of our politics than the people who live here.  Myself included sadly.

And cainam's point is proven correct.  

In this era of the Information Age, there really is little excuse for not making an intelligent reason for voting for someone. At the very least one should look at the candidate's website and see where he/she stands on issues.

[CaCoDeMoN]

It would be a hard choice to choose for who would I vote. G.W. Bush is obsessed with military conquest, Kerry likes more economical ways of controlling world. But they are not really different, they are funded by same corporations, and do not represent interests of people. I certainly wold not vote for Nader, because he is just a dummy set up by Bush's government to steal votes from Kerry. I think that Kerry could be better, because he wold not be so engaged in that silly "war on terrorism". Bush is also more syjonistic, and supports Palestine occupation, and insane policy of Israel. In Poland situation with democracy is much better. Campaigns for parties and presidents are sponsored from public funds, and because of that problems with corruption are somewhat lesser. The second thing is that we have much more balanced parties, and president has much less power. We have also much better, direct voting system, without voter registrations, without voter cards, and without possibility to tamper the votes. For all those that want to vote for Bush: please watch music video by A Perfect Circle called "Counting Bodies Like Sheep To The Rhythm Of The War Drums" at http://www.aperfectcircle.com/bodies.html . For those that do not have so high bandwidth to watch it online, I can send a high quality version of it by email.

[Jenadots]

Considering how two-faced the rest of the world is torwards us right now -- want our money but not us -- it really is open season on Americans abroad -- either verbally or physically -- I wouldn't pay much attention to who anyone else thinks should be the president.  

I could easily have voted for McCain or Gephardt.  But Kerry???  I just don't trust him not to sell us down the river of a very corrupt UN - who also like to line their own bank accounts with our contributions but can't seem to support us even on something as simple as the genocide currently going on in the Sudan.  

Should be interesting to see how it all turns out.

[Archnea]

If you want to vote for Bush check out this picture:
http://www.fotolog.net/celticcatholics/?photo_id=8711720

Hmmm, can't see it. I hope it turns up again. It is a evocative statement.
Here it is in another Link:

http://www.matrixmasters.com/world/usnews/WarPresidentMosaic.html

It also has an article about "The Bush/Kerry Skull and Bones connection." I didn't know about That until today.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Ok, to throw this off a bit, like it isn't already.

There are more than just two (or three) people running for President this time around. The sad thing is that the only ones who can get any attention are Republicans and Democrats. Most people probably don't know about these other potential Presidents, and I am sure that the Republican and Democratic candidates like keeping it this way. Atleast some people try to change the status quo http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0411/arrest.html  Maybe some day we will have more of a choice than just two parties who are not all that different.

How do you hold elections without registering voters? How do you keep track of the voters?

[Jenadots]

CaCoDemon.  Bush does not support Palestinian occupation.  He supports a separate Palestinian State and has said so, repeatedly.  So did the previous President.  

Not that that would end the terrorist attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah, but it is worth a try.  It is what they have always said they wanted.  Clinton almost had the deal with Arafat.....got him everything but control of Jerusulem and Arafat said no...he did not want to share control of that city and would not agree to having it declared an international city controlled by Muslims, Jews and Christians.  arafat is not a sharing kind of guy.

As to the "silly war on terrorism",  just which terrorist attacks did you happen to miss out on the past few years....or the past ten for that matter?  Pick a continent, you will be able to read up on all of them.  These are the same folks that behead people and kill children in schools.  Just because it hasn't happened in Warsaw, doesn't mean it won't.  

Glad you don't seem to have our election problems, but any election can be tampered with which is why they need to be closely watched.

[CaCoDeMoN]

As to the "silly war on terrorism", just which terrorist attacks did you happen to miss out on the past few years....or the past ten for that matter? Pick a continent, you will be able to read up on all of them. These are the same folks that behead people and kill children in schools. Just because it hasn't happened in Warsaw, doesn't mean it won't.

I know that it could also happen in Warsaw, because there are our troops in Iraq. I've said that war with terrorism is silly, because much more people died in US attacks on terrorist sponsoring countries, than in terrorist attacks. Why lives of Iraq/Afghanistan civilians are worth less than lives of Americans? This war with terrorism is mostly about controlling people with fear to support Bush's crusade.

[cainam_nazier]

Archnea--  I had not thought about the health care cuts that have been made by Bush even though I work at a health care facility and watched as the execs scramble to figure out what they were going to do because of them.  One of the places I was working at during that time was really worried because they are non-profit and get most of their funding from Medicare patients.

Jenadots -- I know what you mean about Kerry doing a 180 after he gets in office.  I have that feeling too.  I don't know...The guy just looks like a used car salesman.

Fallnagel777 -- That was a good article.  Sadly because the debates are set up by the 2 leading parties anyone else running hardly ever gets a voice.  The only exception that I can remember was....and I just lost his name....He ran back in 92 or 96...He had the really big, Dumbo like ears.  He was in 1 debate before he withdrew and the only reason he was in it was because he was considered a serious threat to both parties and they were doing their best to knock him down.

[Chawp]

As to the "silly war on terrorism", just which terrorist attacks did you happen to miss out on the past few years....or the past ten for that matter? Pick a continent, you will be able to read up on all of them. These are the same folks that behead people and kill children in schools. Just because it hasn't happened in Warsaw, doesn't mean it won't.

I know that it could also happen in Warsaw, because there are our troops in Iraq. I've said that war with terrorism is silly, because much more people died in US attacks on terrorist sponsoring countries, than in terrorist attacks. Why lives of Iraq/Afghanistan civilians are worth less than lives of Americans? This war with terrorism is mostly about controlling people with fear to support Bush's crusade.

That seems to be the idea right there.  I haven't been able to understand it, 3,000+ people die here and how many have to die over there?  Are we getting silly again or have we never stopped?   Some americans are so hyped up that they never, never pay attention to the civilian casualties over there.   All we care about is the boys that got sent off to this slaughter.  And slaughter they did,  not exactly hard to go get Saddam out of there.  Now we just have this 'new' problem of the muslims we ticked off.  I'm sure to a lot of people we're still the white devil from the crusades.  Now I get to the point where I want to type more, but I'm actually afraid to in fear that this post would throw up a red flag.  Our federal government has become it's own entity that is big, hungry, and powerful.  If it were a creature,  imagine big, scary, and a lot of heads.  I won't vote for Bush, I don't like Kerry either,  but my choice is taken away.  If I vote for anyone else, it just makes it a better chance for Bush to win.  I think more partys should have a chance.  Then again, I think that the biggest elections should be the state election.  Trying to fit the whole nation's interests and views under one platform isn't going to work.  That's why the southern states wanted to get out, the views of the federal government didn't fit their own.  I just think the federal government should just be there to watch the states to make sure they don't let their people starve and cruel stuff that humans are capable of.  Also to interact with other nations on trade policys, and some non-war diplomatic stuff.  Plus provide presense for defense on the mainland.  Who knows, maybe I'm weird.

P.S.  First post.  introduction where it needs to be when I'm not so tired.

Edit: His name was Ross Perot.  I wonder what happened to him.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Yes, Ross Perot. He was the wealth business man. He probably was only able to get any attention because of his money. I heard he had a really hard time getting any air time at all. The networks would just refuse him. I think he had to complain to someone about the equal time thing. I think he did have a decent chance. He had a pretty good following until he started this drop out drop in thing. One minute he was running then he would drop out, then he would be back in. After that his support really dropped.

Has anyone given the Libertarians a serious look? While I do not agree with them totally, I do think they have some really nice ideas. They would bring a nice mix to the political scene. They are gaining strength on more local levels. I like their ideas about individual freedom and personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is something we could use more of in the US.

[Manix]

BAHHAHAHA! I found the card (it was hiding amongst some old bank statments).

Last election I wanted very much to vote, but my card did not arrive in time (has been hiding in the bank statments ever since). Sadly, the paper work didn't come through until AFTER the election was entirely over. This will be my first opportunity to vote. So, now that the card has made it's appearance, I'm starting to think about this a bit more seriously. There will be alot more people to vote for other than the pres. So rather that using the any-mini-miny-moe method, I want to have some names in mind. But where do I start looking?! Is there a state home page that lists the canidates for the various offices appearing on the ballot?

Sorry for veering off topic!
<goes to google to begin search>

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I am glad you found your card! I have yet to find a place that actually lists everyone running for President. Here are some websites I found of those I know about, in no particular order.

www.georgewbush.com

www.johnkerry.com

http://badnarik.org/

http://www.votecobb.org/

http://www.peroutka2004.com/

http://www.votenader.org/

It should be noted that all of these candidates may not be on the ballot in your area. Though I have heard that the Libertarian and Green candidates are on the ballot in most states I have not checked on this claim. On his website the Constitution Party candidate, Peroutka, shows which states he is on the ballot, which is the majority of them.

[Manix]

Thank you for those links!

[Archnea]

I came across this link today and thought I'd share it here:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_10/004974.php

[Jenadots]

Yes, I know civilians got killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.  But no evidence shows thousands and thousands of them.

But who is doing  killing them now?  Terrorists, at least half of whom do not seem to be Iraqis but have come over the borders to blow up anything and anyone they feel like.  

They are not going to let the Iraqi people alone - they can't.  That is not on their agenda.  

The biggest difference between the USA and the terrorists operating there now is that we actually want to leave.  The terrorists don't.  

Sooner or later the foreign troops, including us, will leave both countries.  Who knows what they will develop for themselves in five years.  It could be wonderful for them or they might go right back to the Taliban or a clone of Saddam Hussein.  

I want the troops safely home as much as anyone, but there seems to be a contigency there that will fight and kill others no matter what does or doesn't happen.  Because they love the killing more than they love their own lives.  

The USA could pack up and leave next week and these people would still be blowing up Iraqi's.  No doubt, they would find some excuse.  But they wouldn't stop.  

People are right to say we haven't learned some of the lessons of VietNam yet.  One of the biggest lessons is what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia after the USA suddenly left - yes, in defeat, but suddenly and quickly.  Millions were slaughtered.  I certainly would not want a repeat of that scenario in Iraq or Afghanistan.  

It is hard to fight an idea and the idea that needs fighting is a temperment of terrorism that may take decades to lessen.  

How do you end it?  I have no idea.  Who do you negotiate with?  Who do you talk to?  How do you fight people who are willing to kill themselves just to kill you or someone like you?  

I am sure that most of the people in Iraq and Afghanistan want some kind of peace and a normal life.  And they deserve it, and they deserve it now.  The sooner, the better.  But how do you help them make that happen?

[CaCoDeMoN]

Jenadots:
People that fight with Americans are not terrorists.They are rebels, but can someone who defends his own country be a terrorist? And please do not believe US propaganda. When Hitler wanted to destroy Jewish nation, his government started blaming them for Germany economical crisis. In that time many German Jews were rich, owning shops, factories, etc. Things that German propaganda said were only excuses to rob them, and to murder them. There's a similar scheme in Iraq. US government blamed Iraq for helping terrorists, and for having tons of WMD, and WMD labs that did not exist anyway. This was only an excuse to attack this country(that never attacked US by any means), and to rob it from it's natural resources. Can you call Abu Gharib prison a part of Iraq liberation? Can you call Iraqi pseudogovernment doing what it was told by the US a democracy? Isn't a bill forcing Iraqis not to save seeds of plants from their farms but to buy genetically modified seeds from US companies every year forcing country into starvation? And what you can say about Americans polluting Iraq with great amounts of depleted uranium? It's half-life is about 4 billion years, and it will cause cancer in Iraqis to the end of the world. And people you call "terrorists" do not want to kill Iraqis, they want to kill only those that cooperated with US forces. And this is nothing strange, in Poland at WWII those who cooperated with Germans were often killed by Polish rebels.

[Avalon]

This is my suggestion this year...

http://www.votenoneoftheabove.us/

[Skamoni]

I would really vote for no one, waste my vote on some hopeless party. However, i would vote on Kerry he can't do much worst than Bush, can he?

[WalkerInTheWoods]

However, i would vote on Kerry he can't do much worst than Bush, can he?

There's only one way to find out.  

Politicians are like underwear, both should be changed often.  

[cinnabardk]

If the voters of Denmark could decide who would become the next US President, John Kerry would win.

Here are the results of an online poll, done by a major Danish newspaper (NOT a left-wing newspaper!):

   George W. Bush     5%   
   John F. Kerry       82%   
   Ralph Nader        7%   
   None of the above 6%   

       11627 people voted.

(http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=342207)

[Mystic Cloud]

If the finnish people would vote here is the result:

http://www.varjovaalit.com/tulossivu.php

At the moment it is 67% Kerry and 33% Bush.

Honestly, anyone with a bit brains would be better than Bush. He
does not seem to have a deep going morality. But neither does Kerry.
Either way you are in a deep excrement and the dirt laundry is not going to be
nice