Tom Chalko's forum, and what I couldn't reply

[bluewater9487]

Good job. I more or less agree with Tom's opinions but that guy does seem a more than little psychotic. He ecourages people to think for themselves but if you don't believe the same thing as him your wrong. What a guy! Fortunately this forum exists where good points won't be supressed.

[astralspinner]

After reading some of the articles Tom Chalko wrote, I find it impossible to take anything he says seriously. He's not worth your effort - let it drop.

[bomohwkl]

".Actually my elementary theology teacher taught me that, and she didnt molest any children"

Aiya.....look at the bigger picture. Also consider who taught your theology teacher? Who taught the teacher who teach your theology teacher?

"Jesus died for other people's sins/to forgive their sins. What did they get out of it?"

Aiya, you think that the truthfulness and unquestionable fact that Jesus died for other people's sins/to forgive their sins. What if Jesus died to show the non-violence way of life? He showed his integrity of his non-violence approach. Surely, he could
summon a large army from his followers but he didn't. Surely, people who propagate such message with intergity at that time would mostly killed. They get nothing material out of it too even receiving physical torture.
I could easily rephrase,
"Lets go back to Jesus' time and consider why the disciples would tell people that Jesus died to show his integrity of non-violence way of resolving hatred. What did they get out of it?
This is what they got:Their friends and families scorned them. Their social standing, possessions, and political privileges were stolen from them by both Jews and Romans. They were persecuted, imprisoned, whipped, tortured, exiled, crucified, eaten by lions, and cut to pieces by gladiators. To say that they just told people that so they could get power is preposterous. If it was a hoax, then they didn't get anything good out of it.
You have eyes but do you see?"

""Michael, it`s like saying , Jesus `came up` to God and said, you are going to punish them, why don`t you punish me instead! and God says, well yeah, I `need` to punish someone anyway! so there you go, Crucify!!""

Chuckle... ...

" The point of the crucifixion was to forgive our sins. Usually, only the person who is wronged can forgive, but there is an exception, that is Jesus. Only he/God has the power to forgive the sins of others, which is what Christians believe."

If you cannot forgive yourself, no many how many forgivess someone can give you even Jesus himself for example,you cannot be forgiven.
By the way, why was it necessary to die in order to forgive someone sins? Because it was God order? Have our sins forgiven after Jesus been cruxified? How do you know that your sins have been forgiven? Where does all those sins come from? I heard that even baby has sins, is that true? Where does the baby sins come from? Surely you can explain them, but can you explain with a little dogma as possible and as logical as possible?

By the way, Jesus died and later resurrected. I am sure that you cannot deny this fact. What does this prove? This could be possible only if there is a continuation of consciousness after death! This is such a simple logic. Our consciousness is what actually belong to us. It doesn't prove that your sins have forgiven.

[Reason]

bomohwkl:

"Aiya.....look at the bigger picture. Also consider who taught your theology teacher? Who taught the teacher who teach your theology teacher?"

Well as I said the first teachers were the ones who were there.  The ones who were killed/tortured.  You may come back at me and say that sometime in the future the religious leaders twisted things to get more power.  Well they may well have, but I don't think that they changed the gospels.

"Aiya, you think that the truthfulness and unquestionable fact that Jesus died for other people's sins/to forgive their sins. What if Jesus died to show the non-violence way of life? He showed his integrity of his non-violence approach."

Well I never said that I thought Jesus died ONLY to forgive other people's sins.  By the way, we in the here and now don't KNOW why Jesus chose to die.  All we know about Jesus' time is what has been passed down, and written in the bible.

"If you cannot forgive yourself, no many how many forgivess someone can give you even Jesus himself for example,you cannot be forgiven.

I can't understand this sentence, if you could rewrite it I would appreciate it.  If english is your second language I understand.

By the way, why was it necessary to die in order to forgive someone sins? Because it was God order?"

Well I don't know why.  I haven't learned why Christians believe this or if they even believe this.  These are a couple questions that I would like to ask Jesus, but alas, I cannot.  

"Have our sins forgiven after Jesus been cruxified?"
Well I don't know for sure, but I do know that Christians believe that.  I will check on the reasoning  behind it.

"How do you know that your sins have been forgiven?"
Because God forgives all.  If you are sorry about committing the sin -truly, then God forgives.  That is the Christian belief as far as my understanding goes.

"Where does all those sins come from?"
Some would say that Sins come from God since he created us he must have created sin, but this is incorrect.  Sins come from people.  We have free will to do right and wrong.  Remember, there has to be a right before a wrong, just like milk has to be good before it becomes spoiled.

"I heard that even baby has sins, is that true? Where does the baby sins come from? Surely you can explain them, but can you explain with a little dogma as possible and as logical as possible?"

Well I don't know about sins (plural).  But I do know that Christians believe that everyone has original sin.  I don't believe this, remember I am not Christian.  I can't explain it.  But Christians believe that original sin comes from the story of Adam and Eve.

I personally think this is false.  When I read the story this is what my logic says to me.  'Hey the story of adam and eve is false, they weren't the first people in the world, what about evolution?  Since we know people evolved, and that the adam and even story is false, why should we take the whole story of original sin seriously?'

"By the way, Jesus died and later resurrected. I am sure that you cannot deny this fact. What does this prove? This could be possible only if there is a continuation of consciousness after death! This is such a simple logic. Our consciousness is what actually belong to us."

I never said that I denied the fact, I don't.  I NEVER said that there WASNT a continuation of consciousness after death.  To my knowledge this is only what Christians believe.  I am not Christian, I only pick out some of their beliefs and make them my own if they make sense.  I can never be a Christian though simply for the reason that I believe in reincarnation, which goes against church doctrine.

"It doesn't prove that your sins have forgiven."

I never said that it did.  You are correct that it doesn't prove that our sins are forgiven.

In conclusion I think I should say the following just so you/anyone who cares will know.  I haven't worn my crucifix for awhile now.  I wore it every day for the past 3 years, and I have chosen not to wear it because I am still trying to figure out exactly what my beliefs are.  I meditate just about every day (haven't been able to for the past few days because I didn't have time, (school) and I eventually hope to be able to astral project so that I can find answers for myself through all the venues that the astral world offers.

PS:The book I am reading for my theology class called Fundamentals of the Faith by Peter Kreeft is an excellent book.  I may have become a Christian because of all the sense it makes.  As I said before the big thing that keeps me is that I believe in reincarnation.

[Anonymous]

I think the main reason Jesus was sent to us is to explain the nature of the Universe.

[bomohwkl]

"but I don't think that they changed the gospels"

But how come the idea of sins from the gospels doesn't seem to make sense from you own rational sense of 'sins'?

Hey, the bible is the book of God, the Christians said.

[Reason]

"But how come the idea of sins from the gospels doesn't seem to make sense from you own rational sense of 'sins'?"

Hmm I am not sure what you are saying exactly.  How doesn't the gospels idea of sins not make sense?  What is the idea of sins from the gospel?  I am not totally sure what the idea of sins is from the gospel, if you tell me I am sure I could respond to this.

"Hey, the bible is the book of God, the Christians said."

The christians said that the bible is "the book of god".  God never said the bible was "the book of God", though.  I don't know what point you are trying to make.  By the way, just because a Christian said something, doesn't mean they are right.  I have seen a lot of people who call themselves Christians, but they are not.  People who rape others call themselves Christians.  Priests who molest children call themselves Christians.  Millions and millions of people have died by the hands of people who call themselves Christians.  Maybe I am stressing my point too much, but my main point is, just because a Christian says something, doesn't mean that it is true according to doctrine.  A lot of Christians I know don't know what exactly you have to believe to be a Christian.  

In short, don't think that statements some Christian's make is representative of all Christians.

[Mustardseed]

If you cant do anything else .....just bury them in WORDS!!!!It works everytime!!

[Anonymous]

Why don't we just pretend the Christian religion doesn't exist for a second. Look at the Universe and its nature. What is a sin, really? A sin is something that hurts you in some way. It is an action that backfires on you, sooner or later. We are all sinners. We shouldn't feel guilt over them. Guilt is a negative emotion. I do not believe in it. It gets a person nowehere, it only makes them depressed. There is no reason for it. The ideas of sin and the connotation to the word imply that one should feel guilt if they have committed a sin. I honestly do not know if there will be a final judgement by god himself (or anyone, for that matter), but I know that hurting others makes one's life harder for themselves and should not be done. I believe the Universe was created to resolve some issue and the one(s) responsible for its creation (and ours) has free will and is also behind our own free will. I believe we do indeed have free will and that what we feel is right is what we do because it is the nature of the Universe. There are infinite possibilities because without them, the issue at hand could not be resolved. I believe that whatever this issue is, it is beyond our understanding. I think we have just been given a basic idea of it. It is beyond words.

Ahhhh, it feels so good to state one's opinion. Glad I got that off my mind. I used to be Catholic. I realized later that this was a mistake. I am still legally catholic but I do not believe this applies to me because I no longer believe in the religion.

[Reason]

"What is a sin, really? A sin is something that hurts you in some way. It is an action that backfires on you, sooner or later. We are all sinners. We shouldn't feel guilt over them. Guilt is a negative emotion. I do not believe in it. It gets a person nowehere, it only makes them depressed. There is no reason for it."
The reason (or atleast the right one) for feeling guilt is because you did something wrong, and as a human being with emotions, you should feel bad for whatever you did.  That is like saying that the nazis shouldn't feel bad about torturing Jews because it is a sin that makes one feel guilty.  

"The ideas of sin and the connotation to the word imply that one should feel guilt if they have committed a sin."
See above.  

"I honestly do not know if there will be a final judgement by god himself (or anyone, for that matter), but I know that hurting others makes one's life harder for themselves and should not be done."
That is a reason why people shouldn't sin, but it is not the best one.  The best reason for not wronging others is because you don't want to hurt them.  Caring about their well-being and their feelings.  We shouldn't only do good so we are in good graces with God, but because we want to be [good].

Remember, even though there are bad people who teach and preach Christianity, it doesn't mean that Christianity is bad.  Like I said before, you can't say the whole field of biology is bad because your teacher is bad.  Think of what would happen if people thought this way about what we are into (astral projection/meditation/energy work)  There is almost always something worth learning from just about anything, the trick is to purge it from the bad.

[kakkarot]

on the sin thing, sin is *any act commited against God or God's Will*. by it's original definition, it has actually nothing to do with morality except as a secondary affect in that God's Will has to do with morality.

just like holy originally meant merely "something set apart or consecrated for a purpose" (ie, a specific purpose. a car's purpose is for transportaion, but a specific car wouldn't really be "holy" unless it was specifically set apart for a rather specific task, such as "to drive to my mother's house and only to drive to my mother's house", or something like that. a mage's athame is holy because it is used for one or two specific tasks, to draw the circle and to cut up ingredients for use in a spell; no general use allowed), with no relevance to anything "divine" or supposedly divine.

~kakkarot

[Anonymous]

Actually, what I meant by not feeling guilty about a sin was that a person shouldn't dwell on it because they could be doing something positive for others. A person should acknowledge that they did something wrong, and make it a point not to do it again. It's not that a person shouldn't feel guilty. Like you said, it is natural to feel guilt, and your explanation for the reason of guilt is logical. However, EXCESSIVE guilt is a problem and is not natural.

[Reason]

I agree with you, excess guilt is a big problem indeed.

[Reason]

Here is my first post:

I thought you made a good point in the book Tom. I however wear a crucifix every day around my neck. I am not christian, in fact I am not any religion. Many people would ask me why I would wear such a symbol then.

I wear the symbol because I admire the sacrifice Jesus made, dying for the sins of others. Even though I am not sure about whether or not his sacrifice made a difference, I still admire the sacrifice he made. He died for something he believed in, and that is commendable. [Michael].

Here is what they said in response:

Do you remember WHO told you that Jesus died for "sins of others"? Have you checked their MOTIVES? Have you checked what ELSE they do and say? Aren't they the same people who molest children and get away with it?

Imagine a school in which those who bimbo around get promoted and those who advance their consciousness get ridiculed, punished, tortured and killed. Would you like to go to a school like this? Would you send your children there? Do you think the Universe was created to make and reward lots of idiots?

By blindly believing in "dying for someone else's sins" interpretation you actually insult GI by implying that it is an idiot who has no idea what is going on in the Universe...

Have you forgotten that Jesus CAME BACK TO LIFE and hence demonstrated the immortality of consciousness? You have eyes, but can you see? [Tom]


Michael, it`s like saying , Jesus `came up` to God and said, you are going to punish them, why don`t you punish me instead! and God says, well yeah, I `need` to punish someone anyway! so there you go, Crucify!!

People! stop being idiots and start thinking for yourselves!

Sorry Tom but I am just running out of patience with some of these people who claim they have `read` your book. [Shah]
Tom, I had never thought of this saying the way you had put it, that is a superb piece of reasoning about the motives of the GI. I always thought that this quote meant he died because human beings were so sinful (`going against the purpose of the universe`)and that is why they killed him. Interestingly, this quote is used to offer "salvation" to flocks of followers, under the banner that you can do anything you want once you are saved. They argue that because Jesus died for our sins, all people need to do is to accept this sacrifice, `believe it`, and from that point on, all is forgiven and all sin is washed away and you theen have a place in heaven. Apparently, according to the logic of the church, he not only died for the sins of those at that time, but apparently for all of humanities sins that will occur in the future as well(we all receive the bonus from his death for some reason). Clearly, his death and `sacrifice` extend beyond the point of death to now, yet how is this statement possible when he clearly reincarnated `was resurrected` a short period of time after he was crucified??? [pauld].
This is not the only problem with the church doctrine. Jesus never EVER talked about anyone going to "heaven" to begin with. So-called "paradise" is a 100% church fabricated concept, developed to fool people and collect their property.

There is a man in Sweden, who offers an award to anyone who can prove that Jesus promised anyone to go to paradise. He distributed leaflets at church services. As a result - the Pope admitted that "there may not be any paradise"...

Amazingly, people continue to "believe" in the church deceit. There must be no limit to how stupid one can become... [Tom]


And this is what wouldn't show up on the forum when I tried to reply.

First, both of you should learn two words, tact and courtesy.  I come here because I think I will find understanding people, but instead I get people who ridicule me.

"Do you remember WHO told you that Jesus died for "sins of others"? Have you checked their MOTIVES? Have you checked what ELSE they do and say? Aren't they the same people who molest children and get away with it?"

A few things:

1.Actually my elementary theology teacher taught me that, and she didnt molest any children.  I don't think she had any bad motives.

2.That is like saying the field of biology is bad because your teacher couldn't teach it well, or was a jerk.  You have eyes, but do you see?

3.Lets go back to Jesus' time and consider why the disciples would tell people that Jesus died for other people's sins/to forgive their sins.  What did they get out of it?
This is what they got:Their friends and families scorned them.  Their social standing, possessions, and political privileges were stolen from them by both Jews and Romans.  They were persecuted, imprisoned, whipped, tortured, exiled, crucified, eaten by lions, and cut to pieces by gladiators.  To say that they just told people that so they could get power is preposterous.  If it was a hoax, then they didn't get anything good out of it.
You have eyes but do you see?

This year I have been lucky enough to get a GOOD theology teacher.  I know that Christianity teaches that Jesus died to forgive our sins, which shows that he is a god, because only god can forgive someone for another's sins.

"Imagine a school in which those who bimbo around get promoted and those who advance their consciousness get ridiculed, punished, tortured and killed. Would you like to go to a school like this? Would you send your children there?"

I don't know of a school like this in real life, and obviously no, I would not go to this school if it existed and no, I would not send my kids there.

"Do you think the Universe was created to make and reward lots of idiots?"
Well I never implied that, but to answer your question no.  According to your book he created the universe to impress us and show himself to us, and hopefully have us choose to love him. (Yes, I have read the book Shah, more then once)
(BTW I don't think God is male, I just find it easier to create my sentences using he.)

"By blindly believing in "dying for someone else's sins" interpretation you actually insult GI by implying that it is an idiot who has no idea what is going on in the Universe..."

For someone who puts up links to the Thiaoouba Prophecy you would think that they would have read/believe the book.  According to it the Thiaooubans sent Jesus, maybe you should go back and read the book again.

"Michael, it`s like saying , Jesus `came up` to God and said, you are going to punish them, why don`t you punish me instead! and God says, well yeah, I `need` to punish someone anyway! so there you go, Crucify!!"

If you think that Christians think that, then you really need to read some, because that statement is very distorted.  The point of the crucifixion was to forgive our sins.  Usually, only the person who is wronged can forgive, but there is an exception, that is Jesus.  Only he/God has the power to forgive the sins of others, which is what Christians believe.

They don't believe that the reason Jesus was crucified because God wanted someone to punish.  Ask any educated Christian/theologian.

"There is a man in Sweden, who offers an award to anyone who can prove that Jesus promised anyone to go to paradise. He distributed leaflets at church services. As a result - the Pope admitted that "there may not be any paradise"..."

What man?  Where did you read this?  Where did you get that quote from?

"Amazingly, people continue to "believe" in the church deceit. There must be no limit to how stupid one can become... [Tom]"

Thats nice Tom, insult me some more.  I am trying to "advance my conciousness" as you put it, and in response I am ridiculed.  Even if I learn the wrong facts, atleast I am trying to get it right.  How is it that I am stupid for being taught the wrong things?  Let me answer that, I am not stupid.  You may have more success if you responded to people without putting them down if their views are contrary to yours.  I don't know why I have to tell you this, you should know it by now.  

Tact and courtesy.  If any of you want people to listen, lay off the insults and learn to communicate without exhalting yourself.  

Finally, remember this.
I came here with no threats and no insults.  I didn't try to provoke you, but still I was teamed up on and put down.  Who does this sound like to you?  The very people you despise?  

I am done for now, I await your response.

And that is the end of my reply to them.

What do you think of this?  I used to think Tom was a really good person, but when I go to his forum to see what he thinks I get this in response.