Was Jesus really the Messiah?

[Tab]

quote:It is a most suggestive fact that there is not a word in the so-called sacred Scriptures to show that Jesus was actually regarded as a God by his disciples. Neither before nor after his death did they pay him divine honors. Their relation to him was only that of disciples and "master"; by which name they addressed him, as the followers of Pythagoras and Plato addressed their respective masters before them. Whatever words may have been put into the mouths of Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and others, there is not a single act of adoration recorded on their part, nor did Jesus himself ever declare his identity with his Father. He accused the Pharisees of stoning their prophets, not of deicide. He termed himself the son of God, but took care to assert repeatedly that they were all the children of God, who was the Heavenly Father of all. In preaching this, he but repeated a doctrine taught ages earlier by Hermes, Plato, and other philosophers. Strange contradiction! Jesus, whom we are asked to worship as the one living God, is found, immediately after his Resurrection, saying to Mary Magdalene: "I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God!" (John xx. 17.)

Does this look like identifying himself with his Father? "My Father and your Father, my God and your God," implies, on his part, a desire to be considered on a perfect equality with his brethren -- nothing more.

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-00-c.htm#contents

doobedo...

[no_leaf_clover]

The statements you refer to are made by a few people who actualy belief Jesus was God. So.. what about the other ones? Whether or not who or what you think Jesus was or wasn't, there is the fact that the Jewish Prophets did not predict a 'messiah' like Jesus.

"One of the Messiah's main tasks is to bring world peace by ending wars and arms manufacturing (Isaiah 2:4). Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars continue to be fought to this day." World Wars, the Holocast, Civil Wars, massacres of all sorts..

"Nohwere does the Bible say that the Messiah would come once, die, and return in a "second coming". Such a concept was a Christian concept meant to rationalize Jesus' failure to function in any way as the Messiah or fulfill the Hebrew Bible's prophecies."

etc., etc., ... It's all listed above. You can say you don't believe Jesus was God but that has nothing to do with a lot of the statements. Was Jesus the Messiah?

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by no_leaf_clover

The statements you refer to are made by a few people who actualy belief Jesus was God. So.. what about the other ones? Whether or not who or what you think Jesus was or wasn't, there is the fact that the Jewish Prophets did not predict a 'messiah' like Jesus.

No, those were words from people who have found that the idea of Jesus being the son of god or the incarnation of god is a falsification or at the very least a misinterpretation.

I think it relates to the incorrect idea that Jesus was the Messiah, since not only was he not the messiah as predicted, but he didn't even say that he was to begin with. Just throwing more evidence out.

I had a little more to add, but didn't feel like editing it into my post and thus left it go. Perhaps it's a bit more directly on topic.

quote:James does not even call Jesus Messiah, in the sense given to the title by the Christians, but alludes to the kabalistic "King Messiah," who is Lord of Sabaoth* (v. 4), and repeats several times that the "Lord" will come, but identifies the latter nowhere with Jesus. "Be patient, therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord . . . be patient, for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh" (v. 7, . And he adds: "Take, my brethren, the prophet (Jesus) who has spoken in the name of the Lord for an example of suffering, affliction, and of patience." Though in the present version the word "prophet" stands in the plural, yet this is a deliberate falsification of the original, the purpose of which is too evident.

[PeacefulWarrior]

I know Jesus the Christ is my Savior and Lord.  I know this for myself and I know it not because of what I have been taught or what I have read, but because of personal experiences.  In the end it doesn't matter to me what he says or she says.  What matters to me is the ongoing spiritual experiences I have in the spiritual and physical planes.

I don't judge anyone else or condemn anyone, but I will forever praise my God and ascend to those spheres I believe have been prepared for all those who will accept that he atoned for all the sins of mankind.

By the way, I don't believe in the traditioanl heaven and hell, etc. and I don't believe that one must accept Christ in this life to be "saved" AND I do agree that many (unfortunately MOST) Chrisitians have a distorted view of who and what God is.

[Tab]

As an interesting side note.. I just read this while checking out ellie's India section.

quote:The idea of the messiah came to the western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam from the Zoroastrian religion of ancient Persia.

[Tayesin]

Hi All.

The Jews had a messianic tradition that predated the arrival of Jesus, in fact, there have been many Jewish Messiah's in their long history.  As a boy, Jesus grew up in the Jewish traditions and he may well have been a Rabbi. He was just one of many 'miracle workers' of the time.  We have to understand the culture and times before we can piece together what is what after so long. Jesus was a Man, he was born a man and died a man.

If he did die on a post in the tradition of the Roman's then he did so because of the fears of the Jews who wanted him dead, not because he was dying to save our sins.  That is power and control lie number one, you may believe it if you wish, it doesn't really matter anyway.

There are many traditions that say Jesus travelled to other countries and studied in their wisdom schools, that he married Mary Magdalene and had children and that he died aged around 80-90 in northern India where his grave lies.

In the end, the Bible is only one version of the histories and I tend to be wary of it because we know it has been bastardized throughout the past almost 2,000 years.  And there are far more stories recorded over history that never made it into the Book and from much further afield than just the 'holy lands'.

Love always.[]

[goingslow]

I dont claim to know what Jesus was or wasn't.. but he has to be the most fascinating person in history.  No one has changed history the way he has.. no one has had a bigger effect on this world.

I think he was something special.  The son of god.. Dont know.  And he's not responsible for a lot of the BS that comes after him.  His teachings alone would be worth listening to.

[Adrian]

Greetings Timeless,

I agree with you. Jesus was not God per se, but rather a son of God just as we are all sons and daughters of God, or, if you prefer, we are all God and God is all of us.

I personally believe that Jesus was the highest initiate ever to have incarnated on Earth, from the Cosmic spheres, who came to teach other Spiritually advanced people Spiritual lessons which they would carry on after he departed. Jesus was/is so advanced on the path he is believed to first have incarnated before the Earth itelf existed - on another planet of course. The humans of Earth are the fifth human race to set foot on the path. It is the destiny of everyone to reach the same place on the path as Jesus after aeons of time, and will in turn assist the humans of other planets in their own sacred ascent.

His teachings were conveyed in mystical and symbolic terms which only his followers could appreciate the true meaning of. Of course the dogmatic church interpreted these literally in material terms, and the rest is history. John was a high initiate, the highest of Jesus disciples, who incarnated at the same time to be witness to the words of Jesus, to record everything, and to take the teachings forward. St. Johns gospel contains many Spiritual truths which the church did not remove because they did not understand them. Even so, the church did manage to remove alot of the words which did not suit their control over the masses.

There is much mystical and symbolic teaching in the gospel of St. John. As an example consider the turning of the "water into wine". This is symbolic of the path to perfection. The element of Water represents the Astral body, the Soul which is transient, and the element of Fire represents the immortal Spirit of man, made in the image of God. Through many incarnations, Water washes the Soul until finally the Soul is completely cleansed and emerges as the wine of the Spirit represented by the element of Fire. Once the water has become wine, reincarnation is no longer necessary as the path to perfection continues in the higher spheres.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Nerezza]

This topic is exactly why I want to become a priest.

[shadowatcher]

If you were interested in this topic, then you might be interested in my "Religion and the Beginning of the End" topic.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Adrian wrote:

quote:I personally believe that Jesus was the highest initiate ever to have incarnated on Earth, from the Cosmic spheres, who came to teach other Spiritually advanced people Spiritual lessons which they would carry on after he departed. Jesus was/is so advanced on the path he is believed to first have incarnated before the Earth itelf existed - on another planet of course. The humans of Earth are the fifth human race to set foot on the path. It is the destiny of everyone to reach the same place on the path as Jesus after aeons of time, and will in turn assist the humans of other planets in their own sacred ascent.

Wow!  Adrian, this more or less exactly what we Latter-Day Saints believe...down to the fact that we believe that each human has the possibility to become "gods" and help other beings advance toward perfection and eternal happiness, etc etc.

I am so happy, for lack of a better word to see that others have come to this conclusion.  In my opinion, what you have posted in this thread is one of the most profound and truthful statements I have ever seen in the forums.

-Dan

[Adrian]

Greetings PeacefulWarrior,

I don't know much if anything about the LDS church, but I do know what I personally believe.

It makes alot of sense if you think about it. It is the destiny of every single person to ascend the path back to our creator; indeed, it is the most fundamantal meaning of life. Equally clearly, there are races who set foot on the path aeons before Earth human beings (some would say they include the Pleiadians and Arcturians)and accordingly are further advanced along the path; way higher than the need to reincarnate. It is also true to say the higher always assist the lower in the ascent; this applies at all levels of the path, just as higher beings, Masters and many others are assisting mankind. There are exalted and highly advanced beings who have reached the Cosmic spheres, and rather than focus on their own race as is the case with those at the Celestial level, their focus becomes the entire Universe. Jesus was a person on a mission from these levels. Of course, these levels of the path have different names according the philosophy, in Kabbalah it is the Tree of Life.

Yes, God is in all of us and we are in God. We are all aspects of God, immortal Spirits made in the image of God. One day, after aeons of time we will all possess abilities  beyond the wildest comprehension of anyone on Earth, and we will be assisting the ascent of humans setting foot on the path on the new planets being formed in the physical Universe just as Earth was a few billion years ago.

It seems appropriate to conclude with this quote from John:

On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me and I in you ---John 14:20

This refers to every human being in the Universe.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[jc84corvette]

YES he was, who ever thinks diffrent are barbarians in my eyes, I do not care what religion you are, you have your own messiah type of person, go ahead and follow him/her, but I WONT change my mind.

[jc84corvette]

quote:Originally posted by no_leaf_clover


http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/gideonbernstein/

Knock yourself out.

Angel fire site eah? I would not trust it, it might be crap. A lot of the junk out there is made up by 12 y.o kids that seem to have a high IQ.

Just read your bible, or if you are lackin that, search on google for a trusted site, no angel fire nock off's.

[jc84corvette]

In the B.C ages, there was a messiah comming, to save the world and so forth...

Well when Jesus the messiah came, he could prove it. He preformed MANY maricles, such as turning water into wine. He healed people from their illnesses, he brought the dead alive, and he walked on water. What normal human can do this? And I mean a human that just has a cloak on, no computers attached to him.

The high priest at that time did not belive he was the messiah because Jesus the Almighty was "breaking some religious laws".

Another piece of evidence. When Jesus died on the cross, there was a MASSIVE ground shacking. Kind of symbollical? The people that killed him KNEW that he was the Messiah after that ground shacking.

If you beg to differ then it is not my problem. It is your loss not mine. heh

[PeacefulWarrior]

Adrian,
I agree with everything you say, although I am not sure what you mean about the division between cosmic/celestial spheres.

Latter-Day Saints believe, and this is very simplified (and maybe vague), that Gods/exalted beings, organize intelligences (that have no beginning nor end) and endow them with spirit bodies and then physical bodies, all in an effort to lead them to a state of awareness and eventual exaltation so that they can continue this same process of being "Gods" and eternally organizing intelligence (spirit) and helping them become exalted and gaining "eternal life' or eternal progression (eternal learning, eternal glory, eternal happiness).  

And although we are independent consciousnesess, we are all God or aspects of God and made in the image of God, just as you said.

We also believe that "hell" is only a state of mind and "damnation" is when a being chooses not to advance (e.g., a disincarnate spirit that desires only to be drunken because of a vice or habit not overcome in the physical is damned until it decides to move on and progress).

We believe that Christ is our Elderly Brother and that He attained a state of Godhood before his incarnation here.  Here we believe he played THE vital role in a plan God devised, and that has been devised many other times on many other planets (universes?) before. A plan which enables beings to move toward exaltation.

This knowledge (or these beliefs, depending on how you look at it) of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons) is why nearly every other Christian organization (ESPECIALLY "born agains") hate and revile against us.  They think we are a cult and are blasphemous to believe these things, which is really disheartening because we preach against no other church and, in fact, the LDS church often dedicates funds to help other religions and groups.  For example, I know the church recently donated a significant amount of money to help a Hindu organization.  I think this is a true sign of a religion that has ascended beyond the problematic ideas that so many other religions have regarding what is truth and who is right/wrong.


Anyway, bottom line: our knowledge or understanding, as limited as it may be by our current state, is much more similar than I had ever imagined.  I get the same impression when I talk to Robert Bruce as well (in the email conversations we have had in the past).

Thanks for sharing your ideas Adrian (and others)

Sincerely,

Daniel

[goingslow]

quote:Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior







This knowledge (or these beliefs, depending on how you look at it) of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons) is why nearly every other Christian organization (ESPECIALLY "born agains") hate and revile against us. They think we are a cult and are blasphemous to believe these things, which is really disheartening because we preach against no other church and, in fact, the LDS church often dedicates funds to help other religions and groups.

Well to be honest Im sure this is a large part of why they feel that way.  But the fact your religion accepts having many wives and doesnt really believe in that silly "age of consent" thing.  I think may add to those accusations.  But Im no reborn.. so cant speak for them.

[no_leaf_clover]

Thank you guys for all the input on this. Topics like this tie in so many beliefs and make show where so many ideas come from that it's like all the religions are being tied together, and you suddenly see how each religion has its own bit of what could actually be truth as to why we're here at all. The Church itself seems like it could use a good update, though.

Corvette, the fact that the site is Angelfire doesn't matter. Though Angelfire sites can be created by nearly anyone, it's one of the better hosts you can get absolutely free. Not only that, but all of the things listed there are from the Bible or Torah, etc. References are even given to show you exactly where to look.

[Kazbadan]

Adrian said:

"I personally believe that Jesus was the highest initiate ever to have incarnated on Earth, from the Cosmic spheres, who came to teach other Spiritually advanced people Spiritual lessons which they would carry on after he departed."

There is no doubt that Jesus was a great spirit in the earth, but he was not the only one or maybe the highest one.

What about Budha?! I know some things about is life and is deeds, and even that his miracles are not so big as Jesus miracles, Budha had a diferent power.
- About Jesus we say that his power/miracles it´s related to the body: he could heal the livings and awake the deads, for exemple.
_ About Budha i think that it´s major power was not in the body but in the spirit: may people awake from the ilusion of the life, almost instantly, just because they were in contact with Budha.

I know that heal someone blind or paralised it´s great, but your mind is still sleeping. Spiritually, the only thing that change it´s the fact the you believe in God.

With Budha it´s different: he healed the spirit, something that would never cease, even with death.

I´m not saying that Budha it´s better than Jesus (like Budha vs Jesus, that ridiculous). I just want to show that there different views about a same thing, and that we cannot measure someone just for the miracles. Goodness and compassion are really important. Can we say that Madre Teresa (i don´t know to wright it´s name in your language) it´s worst than Budha or Jesus? I think not. She was always helping the most poor and injured people, althought she had not the power for healing or walking in the water.

All these questions and ideas make me remember an old question, a topic by itself: i will post here.

[Adrian]

Greetings Kazbadan,

Of course you make an excellent observation. There have been many exalted Masters who have incarnated on the Earth over the millennia, some well known and others almost completely unknown. There is no question of comparing them, because they were all Spiritually highly advanced on the path, and came to Earth to assist humanity; they are all great.

You have already mentioned Buddah. I personally believe one of the very greatest Masters if not the greatest ever to have incarnated aside from Jesus was Master Hermes Trismegistus who's profound and highest teachings were of the highest importance to the entire world including the far east. Much more recently there was Master Franz Bardon, the greatest adept of the 20th century.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[PeacefulWarrior]

goingslow:
Thanks for your comments.  By the way, I have NO idea what you are talking about in regards to "the age of consent" deal.  The deal with polygamy is notoriously associated with the LDS church.  First of all, we do not practice ploygamy now.  Second, polygamy in the past (and in the Bible) was often practiced.  We believe in doing whatever God cammands.  In the early days of the church many LDS men were killed and therefore there were many women with families who had no one to take care of them and therefore a man took more than one wife.  It's definetly worth bringing up and unlike some LDS people, I don't tend to shy away from it.
-Dan

[jc84corvette]

It would not be my place to argue about Budah, I do not know anything about that Buddism.

all I know is I will only belive in one, and that is Jesus.

[Tayesin]

Hi All.
An interesting insight into who and what Jesus was, can be gleaned from the documentaries 'Jesus the Man' and 'The Life and Times Of Jesus'.  The researchers on these series are well respected theologians, professors and Rabbi's etc.  They all admit that more recorded history exists that does not 'fit' the accepted Biblical record.  And in order to make informed decisions we humans should always seek as much available info as possible.

The water into wine incident was completely and utterly altered by the early church to fit what they wanted people to believe.  Wine was given to the elite guests and Water was given to the Plebs.  It is recorded that Jesus gave the Plebs watered down wine, THE SAME watered down wine that he gave to the elites!!!! This is how he changed water into wine, making this not a miracle but the act of a young man who saw the need for equality in his society.

I understand that generally, you Americans are force fed the Christian belief system from a very early age in your schools and many homes, so it must be extremely difficult to move outside that box of indoctrination.  It is obvious that the Bible is a highly edited version of certain historical events and I am amazed at how many people still cling to it as if it is 'the only word'.

For the record, I believe Jesus was a Man who was educated into the mystery schools of various cultures and experienced Enlightenment at some stage in his journeys.  I do not doubt that he may have incarnated with a certain amount of higher awareness still intact.  I do not consider that he died on the cross, rather I see that he survived the torture and fled the area when he was well enough to do so, as hypothesised in the 'Grail Bloodline' series of books.

Love always.[]

[jc84corvette]

Ah yes that water thing rang a bell. Thanks for reminding me!

[Novice]

I'm not an LDS, but Adrian pretty much summed up my own personal perceptions regarding Jesus. I consider him a man who, through a multitude of incarnations, made himself fit to receive the Christ Consciousness. So he was Jesus the Christ.

I'll also throw out a thought regarding Buddha. Is it possible that Buddha was a previous incarnation of Jesus?

I'll see what others think about this. I have to run.