What is Right?

[kiauma]

I agree that killing seals, or any animal for that matter, is not bad in itself.  We do it all the time, and in fact the consumption of other biomatter is imperative for any biological beings survival - meaning it is perfectly natural, and necessary.   Perhaps one day we will find an alternative, but for now we don't have one.

As for vegetarianism, do you know what keeps a plant from running away screaming?  It can't - But they are just as alive as we are.

However, we must always remain vigilant of the abuses that can cause catastrophic pressures in our common ecosystem, which unfortunately is far too stressed already.  I do not believe seals are any longer in danger of extinction - though they certainly were at one time.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

There is always atleast two sides to every story, though usually more. Nice post.

[volcomstone]

its our attempt to re-balance the scales we tipped so long ago

delicate ecosystems such as the arctic and deserts, are the first to show signs of trouble

other things we should watch is amphibians and birds,
frogs are disapeering

and the avian flu is devastating natural populations of fowl worldwide,

the ebola is also killing off  many already endangered gorrillas in the congo region/

[Nagual]

I think I heard that even Green Peace does not protest against it because the seals have a "huge" population right now.

Personaly, it's not the death part that bothers me; it's more the way they are killed; the cruelty; the suffering...  They could really use something else than clubbing animals until they die!

And, about it being the only way the population has to make a living...  I don't agree.  I understand, but I don't agree.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by Nagual

Personaly, it's not the death part that bothers me; it's more the way they are killed; the cruelty; the suffering...  They could really use something else than clubbing animals until they die!

This is something I wonder. How are they actually killed? Anyone can say anything to make their point. But what is the reality of it? If they are clubbed, how many wacks does it take to actually kill a seal? You can kill a human with one good wack to the head and it is a rather painless death. Unlike in slaughter houses they will hang hogs upside down, slit their throats, and then start cutting away. If I had my choice I would rather take a hard hit to the head.

I don't really know the reality of the issue so I am neutral on it.

[Eol007]

quote:Originally posted by fallnangel77

quote:Originally posted by Nagual

Personaly, it's not the death part that bothers me; it's more the way they are killed; the cruelty; the suffering...  They could really use something else than clubbing animals until they die!

This is something I wonder. How are they actually killed? Anyone can say anything to make their point. But what is the reality of it? If they are clubbed, how many wacks does it take to actually kill a seal? You can kill a human with one good wack to the head and it is a rather painless death. Unlike in slaughter houses they will hang hogs upside down, slit their throats, and then start cutting away. If I had my choice I would rather take a hard hit to the head.

I don't really know the reality of the issue so I am neutral on it.

It was shown on TV in the UK... shot, clubed and left to die.

See for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3627345.stm

Rebecca Aldworth, of the International Fund for Animal Welfare (Ifaw) told AFP. "This year we saw terrible cruelty, and almost no government monitoring of the hunt," she said.

"Just metres away from us, conscious seal pups were sliced open. They were dragged across the ice with boathooks. Injured seals were left to die in stockpiles of carcasses."

Say no more,


S

[James S]

It's not quite the same situation, but in Austrailia we've oftne had outcrries from animal welfare or environmental groups complaining about the killing of Kangaroos in central Australian areas.

What these environmentalist people just don't seem to get is the fact that they are arguing moralities over practicalities. Sure the Kangaroo is honoured by being on Australia's coat of arms, sure they're only found in one place on earth, but in the central Australian regions their population levels often reach plague proportions, and they can end up turning grasslands into barren deserts!

I really object to the killing of animals for no purpose other than sport, or any other form of cruel pleasure, but I don't object to the killing of animals for practical reasons. All living things to me are equally as important - plants animals, the lot.

James.

[Fat_Turkey]

In my response to the "moral," environmentalist vegetarian...unless you grow your own crops, you're just as sadistic as a guy cooking his steak on the BBQ next door.

FACTS: Rodents are brutally killed during the harvests each year. They get caught up in machinary, mostly getting limbs detached and walking for about an hour or more until they bleed to death. Cows get raised on crappy feed, and if they had the choice between being "slaughtered" and dying of old age and cancer and eating the same crappy food every day, I think they'd choose slaughter.

A lot of moral vegetarians act as if the cows get cut up bit by bit whilst still alive. Most slaughters, if not ALL slaughters, simply involve driving a spike through the head of the cow, killing it instantly. At most it feels one ounce of a sharp sting before the brain is killed, and the nervous system fails to give it decent responses to know that hurts like hell. Then the cow is gutted, taken apart and whatnot...exactly what it was raised to do.

A farm cow, born and raised on the farm, wouldn't really do much use in the wild.

Whereas we go back to our little harvests, where millions of rodents and other animals die each year, and you're telling us meat-eaters that we're evil. I'm sorry, but unless you grow your own crops, the moral vegetarian's argument is nullified and void of all legitimate reasons to exist.

*steps off soap box*

~FT

[Eol007]

Hi,

A highly valid point about modern crop production methods and the blitz on small furry ones etc!

After the BSE nightmare in the UK - I for one will never eat cows again, and will only entertain organic dairy produce wherever possible.

Is anyone familiar with the milk debate and aware of Robert Cohen's notmilk.com site for instance? OK it is propaganda, but seriously worth studying. I'm no activist and sorry if this seems to have gone off-piste, but surely the whole global food production/agro industry/food supply/fishing industry has gone up the river. Are we actually meeting humanity's needs or something else altogether - I for one think not! Although I'm all for educated consumer choice, and appreciate this does not take into account other scenarios i.e. 3rd world starvation!  But do we need to kill seals to save fish? It's obvious that the global fishing fleets are devastated and people need jobs to feed mouths etc... But more importantly - are we empowered to furnish realistic and holistic short and long terms solutions to the question of satisfying basic human needs. Surely we should for posterity's sale and the security of our children birthright?

Yes, I'm all for personal choice... whatever ones preference!

What do you think (eyes open)?


S

[shaman]

We choose our own destiny. We have our will (and not only free will, but the power of our will) to decide where we wish to live and what we wish to do. I was unemployed for 1 year just at the time I was getting married and my wife was pregnant, that's how I decided and move to another country where I got a job. If there are no fish in the water, no diamond in the mine and no letters in the mail box any more, then move on to another country. If I find disgusting to kill seals I will not do it and will leave Canada all together and get to a new place to find a job that suits what I feel is human to do. If you chose to live in a place where only fishing is possible then don't complain if there are no more fish in the water. The family of my father has lived in the same place for more than 400 years, in less than 40 years I have lived in 3 different countries. So it is up to us. The seals are not responsible for the misery of the human world, but the human are responsible for the misery and tragedy of the seal population. The same is true for the killing of whales, because there is a market and a demand of whale meat, because of that there are fisherman that killed whale. In Africa it is the elephant and the rhino that are on the market. In places it has been changed and the paochers have found a job as keeper of the animals, since they are paid a better salaray as "guards" rather than as poachers. So it is up to those who fix the market to change the way they do their own business. It is also the same for the "cage free chicken eggs". If someone starts the market more humanly and that works, then the whole market will follow and it will become a norm. It all has to do with marketing and money and politics. Sure the fishermen are not completly responsible, but those in the government who are not doing any effort to help create new jobs for those fishermen are the responsible. And last the fisherman makes his own choice, for him killing a seal or a fish is the same, and it is killing an animal anyhow, things that I do not support and justify. There are organic food products and a whole new market where things are done differently. It is up to us to buy that rather than all the rest. If yet it is still not perfect and some animals are being hurt during the processing of some veggies, still we have to do what we can at our own level!

There are so many abominable and terrible things on this planet that we will never be able to stop, but at least I am trying to do my best in my very own surroundings and I think it is the responsibility of each of us to do what he/she can in her/his surroundings and according to his/her power (e.g. politicians can do more).

In what would we still be human if we just ignore everything ?

[greatoutdoors]

Well, here's another fine mess we've gotten us into! [] (Laurel & Hardy...) This big-mouth can't resist weighing in on this issue, so please bear with me.

Shaman, you confuse me a bit. You seem to be arguing both sides of the fence. I agree with you that each of us needs to do what we can to leave something on this planet for future generations. I disagree when you seem to say it's okay to exploit an area because you can always just move to a new one. That's what's gotten us into this situation in the first place! And have you seen pictures of Earch from space? We have such a beautiful nest, and so small!

I don't even know where to begin!

As to cruelty: Humankind, and next to us the cat clans (another debate for another day), are perhaps the cruelest creatures ever to live. I think this trait is "built in" from birth. Children don't know they're inflicting pain when they throw rocks at turtles to see if their shells are really hard, but they do it. Ideally, as we grow, we are taught kindness and learn to empathize with other living things. Far too many folks never learn this lesson. That's why there are people who catch a catfish and skin it alive because "it's easier to get the skin off." That's why there are Federal "trappers" in Alaska who fire over five shots into a totally passive wolf before it finally falls to the ground. Oh, and that wolf was in a snare trap, caught by the shoulder, and had already lost its entire front leg to the trap. I can give more examples. So seals are nothing new. And we aren't going to change the adults in our world. In this arena, our only chance is to make sure the children have 1) a realistic view of what animals are -- no Bambi fictions, and 2) realize that we really are all brothers under the skin, like it or not.

As to overuse of resources: There are two reasons here. First, historically we have never run out of room, or resources, before. There has always been somewhere else to go or something else to eat. This will not be the case much longer. We're eating fish species today that were considered "trash fish" less than twenty years ago. We're even commercially harvesting krill now, if I remember correctly! And in the U.S. there is a constant battle going on to allow logging companies to "harvest", read destroy, old growth timber. And like the post about the seals, the reason given is "It's the only way we can make a living!" Okay fine, but what do you do when the trees and the seals and the fish are gone? What happens to your logic then? The only rational way out of the mess we've made is to harvest only what we can replace, and to put back as much as we take. And that leads me to the second reason for the problem. That would be greed! So long as money rules the world, whether in Africa with "bush food" poachers, or in the U.S. with "fire control" logging, we are rushing full-tilt to disaster. Again, the only solution I can see is to teach the children. Respect your surroundings, take only what you need, put something back! ANd yes, Shaman, this means staying in one place and making that place better (I'm really not picking on you - just recalling your comment about your father's family). This can work, if the greedy and foolish folks we have to deal with today will only give us time!

Sorry for the speech, and with that I've only scratched the surface, but I'm off my soapbox now, too! []

[Lighthouse]

Hi folks,

This is in response to the praivate message we all received in our mailboxes, regarding "Saving the Seals.'  Although I believe that the people involved in stopping these types of activities are doing what they feel is right and good, there are always 2 sides to a story.

In the 1970's my Grandmother and Grandfather were very active in environmental and Conservationist projects, my grandfather was involved in the Sierra Club long before environmentalism and conservation was "Cool."  They raised Alaskan Huskeys to race in the Iditarod dog sled race and were granted permission to raise an orphaned Arctic Wolf to study by the US Federal government.  My grandfather also spent 3 months in a 10 x 10 room in a tower in the arctic to study Polar Bears.  My grandmother was a photographer and has had her works published in National Geographic they were also friends with Marlin Perkins, host of the Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom TV program. This is all to give you an idea of the types of people my grandparents were and the depth of the conservation efforts they were involved with.  

In the 1970's my grandparents went on an expedition to "Save the Seals."   They wanted to stop the killing of the innocent baby seals for their pelts.  When they got there, one of the poachers asked to speak with my grandparents.  They had a long discussion and my grandmother tells me that in an environment where "ecotourism" is not an optiion, these people had no alternate source of income.  The only way they could earn money to survive (buy food, supplies, everything that a human needs to live their lives in a world of commerce) the only way of making any money was to sell the hides of these seals.  They were paid 75 cents per pelt and on this, they fed, clothed, and provided warm homes for their families.  These people were not getting big bucks for the pelts, they were getting barely enough to scrape by.  

I don't remember in full detail the rest of the story, but I do know that my grandmother and grandfather had a change of heart and decided that this was not a crusade they were interested in fighting.  They were able to see the other side and determined that there were indeed 2 sides to every story.  

I too believe that it is cruel to kill innocent animals, however, perhaps looking at other humans with a little more compassion and understanding would also be in order.  Things may seem black and white, and propoganda can be very convincing, however, things are rarely as they seem.

Kerri