What is the Difference Between AP and Lucid Dreams?

[tarboxb]

Hello everyone,

I have read about astral projection and lucid dreaming a lot in the past and I want to begin to attempt to do one or both of them. I am curious however what is really different between the two. It seems to me that astral awareness is one level above lucid awareness but how do you go from being inside a construct of your own mind into another world parallel to the physical world? Thanks ahead of time for you responses, I am very excited to start working on learning LD and AP and I can't wait to hopefully experience the non-physical for what it really is!

[desert-rat]

Welcome to the forum . I will quote you from what I have read , I have spent many years , and cant have a conscious o.b.e. my self .  Lucid dreaming is a dream where you know you are dreaming and can control it . Astral projecting , out of body is where your soul or spirit is out of your body , it can go any where .   Like being dead , but you have a living body to go back to .  Many believe we all go out of body at night during sleep , but only have a few vuage dreams , like flying or floating dreams . Some use the lucid dreaming state to go out of body , it is one of many methods . desert rat 

[tarboxb]

Alright desert-rat thank you very much for you response this seems to clear up the confusion for me. I am still wondering though... the astral plane is a real place so that means that several people could project together and remember the experiences correct? Also are their other spiritual entities on the astral plane that lack a physical body, and if so can you interact with them?

[Lionheart]

 Here is a recent video that answers your question. The part you want to listen to starts at around the 45:00 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU7jEMMMvhI

[tarboxb]

Thank you Lionheart!

[Volgerle]

for me, there is no difference, but I see a difference between AP and EP (etheric projection) or RTZ-OBEs (real-time zone projections), also between AP and MP (mental projection, higher planes),

dreams are a projection to the astral plane, hence in an AP you 'end up in the same 'area', so to speak. the degree of lucidity varies, in normal dreams you are unconscious and your subconscius or "Higher Self" is at the steering wheel

when you gain more lucidity / aware consciousness on the Astral Plane then you are at the same 'area' as when you do a conscious projection there from  trance state or "phasing"

[Xanth]

Here is a recent video that answers your question. The part you want to listen to starts at around the 45:00 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU7jEMMMvhI

GOLD...
I highly suggest everyone listen to that part.  Actually, listen to the whole thing. 

[Lionheart]

Yesterday I went to my bedroom and laid down on the bed at about 9:00pm. I didn't have any intent on projecting at all or anything like that. I had just finished watching my local news. They had a story about a missing Autistic boy in Prescott Wisconsin, so this thought was still on my mind. I kind of just focused on my noisy ceiling fan in my bedroom. The next thing I knew I was sitting at my computer, I heard some scratching under a plant shelf beside my computer and the next thing I knew a huge rat came out of from under it. Mind you, this was totally unexpected and immediately sent me back to my physical state again. Now this was more vivid then many Phase sessions are. My Phase sessions take a lot longer for the full vivid visuals to kick in. But I can compare it to one thing though and that's my False Awakenings. The vividness and total all around feeling was exactly the same. I think that rat scene was an actual fullfledged OBE. I was definitely in the Real Time Zone. I hope the rat scene isn't some kind of premonition or psychic view of what is occurring with the missing boy. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. I shouldn't have startled so easy, but it was like I just closed my eyes and almost immediately I was there. Usually with Phasing the progression is much slower, at least this is my observation.
Edit!  Good News, they just found the boy!  

[Pauli2]

Here is a recent video that answers your question. The part you want to listen to starts at around the 45:00 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU7jEMMMvhI

"There are differences, but not fundamental differences..."

Jeez, and then he throws in RVing. Lionheart, do you think that there is no
fundamental difference between RV and OBE? If so, what exactly is meant
by "no fundamental difference"?

[Xanth]

"There are differences, but not fundamental differences..."

Jeez, and then he throws in RVing. Lionheart, do you think that there is no
fundamental difference between RV and OBE? If so, what exactly is meant
by "no fundamental difference"?

I fully agree with Tom.

Think about what RVing is... it's the shutting off/down of your physical sensory input and receiving other sensory input.  That's, in effect, what an OBE is... that's what a Lucid Dream is... that's what an Astral Projection is... that's even what a dream is.

The drive to categorize and label these experiences cheapens and demeans them.  Take them for what they are... fascinating explorations!

"No fundamental difference" is what I just said above.  It's all perspective and belief.  Of which, you, Pauli, are so full of them that they're stopping you from experiencing the larger reality first hand instead of just perceptually.

[Pauli2]

Think about what RVing is... it's the shutting off/down of your physical sensory input and receiving other sensory input.  That's, in effect, what an OBE is... that's what a Lucid Dream is... that's what an Astral Projection is... that's even what a dream is.

If I have to trust what Campbell says, it still is very fuzzy, blurred so everything
becomes the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if Campbell at some point will say that wakefulness in physical reality (PMR)
is fundamentally the same as an OBE. But that is like a physicist would say that any atom
is fundamentally the same as any other atom. It doesn't give room for any diversification.

If a carbon atom is fundamentally the same as an oxygen atom, just because both have
electrons and similar atom core, doesn't take into account that they in fact are different.

Different, but No Fundamental Difference ... I doubt such a statement helps anyone.

[NoY]

the problem is Paulie , tom is trying to teach idiots who know nothing about the subject so most of what he says is dumbed down abit for the layman, I'm sure if you was to ask him a more complex question you would be satisfied with his answer, most likely he would tell you to make up your own damn mind and don't over analyse everything he says

:NoY:

[desert-rat]

Astral projection , out of body , near death experencn, lucid dreaming , ect are not exact sciences .  Ever one has a little different idea . The best thing is to read some of the other posts on this forum , others , and sites on this .  Hear is a link with some interesting videos http://obe4u.com/   desert rat 

[todd421757]

Yesterday I went to my bedroom and laid down on the bed at about 9:00pm. I didn't have any intent on projecting at all or anything like that. I had just finished watching my local news. They had a story about a missing Autistic boy in Prescott Wisconsin, so this thought was still on my mind. I kind of just focused on my noisy ceiling fan in my bedroom. The next thing I knew I was sitting at my computer, I heard some scratching under a plant shelf beside my computer and the next thing I knew a huge rat came out of from under it. Mind you, this was totally unexpected and immediately sent me back to my physical state again. Now this was more vivid then many Phase sessions are. My Phase sessions take a lot longer for the full vivid visuals to kick in. But I can compare it to one thing though and that's my False Awakenings. The vividness and total all around feeling was exactly the same. I think that rat scene was an actual full fledged OBE. I was definitely in the Real Time Zone. I hope the rat scene isn't some kind of premonition or psychic view of what is occurring with the missing boy. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. I shouldn't have startled so easy, but it was like I just closed my eyes and almost immediately I was there. Usually with Phasing the progression is much slower, at least this is my observation.
Edit!  Good News, they just found the boy!  

Lionheart's post is very informative. Whenever you focus on external sounds to project with, you will have a much greater chance of entering the real time zone.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/obe_technique_that_uses_sound_from_a_portable_heater_or_fan-t36507.0.html

[personalreality]

There is no difference.

It's all projecting your consciousness in some way or another.  The different names only describe the methods of achieving the experience.  Naturally, if you use one method versus another, you will perceive the experience through the perception that has been primed by the particular method you used.  Any difference you identify is based in your subjective perception of the experience, not in the experience itself.  The same can be said of any kind of experience in which your consciousness is projected into "another reality", anything from a day dream (which is a very weak form of projection where most of your attention is still focused on your physical body), to a passive experience like a dream or unintentional lucid dream, to an active OBE/AP/Phase.  All the same, just achieved through different means which utilize varying intensities of mental attention and thus produce different different sensory experiences. 

No difference at all in the big picture.

[Lionheart]

 Pauli there is a portion of Tom's Q @ A that I think you would really benefit from. It starts right at the beginning of this video and goes for 15 minutes. The key is to listen to it with an "open mind"! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w6Tf5CNPpU&feature=relmfu

[Xanth]

If I have to trust what Campbell says, it still is very fuzzy, blurred so everything
becomes the same.

Nope.  You don't have to "trust" it.  That's actually his entire point.  He doesn't want you "trusting" what he says.
He doesn't want you to believe what he says.  He also doesn't want you to disbelieve it either.  Reason being once you believe in something, you no longer have to search for an answer... you've go it!  Once you disbelieve it, you've taken it completely off the table just incase it has some possibility of being true.

What Tom wants from you is to go have your own experiences and create your *own* "big toe". 

I wouldn't be surprised if Campbell at some point will say that wakefulness in physical reality (PMR)
is fundamentally the same as an OBE. But that is like a physicist would say that any atom
is fundamentally the same as any other atom. It doesn't give room for any diversification.

He actually already says that.  He states: "WE ARE CONSCIOUSNESS". 
It's why and how he can create a BIG TOE, because it encompasses both physical and non-physical.

And in the end... well, according to Tom... those atoms don't actually exist anyway, they're all just "data". 
Just information which your consciousness is processing in order to experience it.

If a carbon atom is fundamentally the same as an oxygen atom, just because both have
electrons and similar atom core, doesn't take into account that they in fact are different.

Different, but No Fundamental Difference ... I doubt such a statement helps anyone.

Well, I'm not exactly sure... but I don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. 

[Pauli2]

Pauli there is a portion of Tom's Q @ A that I think you would really benefit from. It starts right at the beginning of this video and goes for 15 minutes. The key is to listen to it with an "open mind"!

Well, I listened and listened and you and I are of the same age, but to me that was just one more
boring and slightly length talk of Campbell. The stuff about 'fear being absence of love' sounded
like an echo of the 1990ies Moen books, so I guess that is something TMI teaches a lot. But
otherwise, nothing new in my opinion. I'm really sorry, but Campbell seldom impresses me.

I also think this is typical of Campbell, he seldom speaks of anything new, he repeats TMI program
or TMI course material stuff, he repeats content from his book MBT, he has very few face expressions
which to me increases the boring moments, he is very lengthy at all times, he speaks almost always
with the same kind of voice.

I just doesn't get it, why are everyone liking these lengthy nothing-new-content clips?
I can't bring up any enthusiasm to such lengthy video talks.

[Xanth]

Well, I listened and listened and you and I are of the same age, but to me that was just one more
boring and slightly length talk of Campbell. The stuff about 'fear being absence of love' sounded
like an echo of the 1990ies Moen books, so I guess that is something TMI teaches a lot. But
otherwise, nothing new in my opinion. I'm really sorry, but Campbell seldom impresses me.

I also think this is typical of Campbell, he seldom speaks of anything new, he repeats TMI program
or TMI course material stuff, he repeats content from his book MBT, he has very few face expressions
which to me increases the boring moments, he is very lengthy at all times, he speaks almost always
with the same kind of voice.

Just one word of note...

Tom Campbell helped to WRITE the TMI programs.

Just sayin... 

I just doesn't get it, why are everyone liking these lengthy nothing-new-content clips?
I can't bring up any enthusiasm to such lengthy video talks.

Because you're not *LISTENING* to him openly.  You're heavily biased already against him.  Which is really ironic, cause he's an author... and you love listening to authors.  LoL
You already have a judgment that anything this man has to say isn't going to be any use to you.

Open your heart and REALLY listen.

I'll be honest, it took me SEVERAL times listening to his first New York lecture before I started to "get it". 
And I don't mean "get it" as in begin to understand his theories... I mean "get it" as in begin to understand what this man is about.

He is the epitome of Love.  He's the epitome of what he talks about.  REALLY LISTEN.

[Barnowl]

dreams are a projection to the astral plane, hence in an AP you 'end up in the same 'area', so to speak. the degree of lucidity varies, in normal dreams you are unconscious and your subconscius or "Higher Self" is at the steering wheel

That is how I see it as well. Its all down to, 'awareness', or how much, 'consciousness' is in your etheric body. For dreams, you are, 'barely' conscious (so to speak) so its a bit fuzzy (but you always seem to know what you are doing, so most likely subconsciously moving...)

Then you realize that you are, 'dreaming' and a bit more, 'consciousness' floods in, you realize that you can, 'fly' and do other stuff, but still a bit fuzzy. In my opinion, this is a lucid dream.

Then, you demand clarity, (like what william burlman would say) and suddenly, near crystal clear picture. Suddenly, no fuzzyness (or very little). Your thoughts begin to create easily, and you know where you are (for the most part). You can then, to a degree, manipulate the environment.

You are now in an obe.

I'm no expert, but hopefully this will help. I've had the odd one or two lucid dreams, but the manifesting properties in a lucid dream is still a bit too restrictive for me, hence why I prefer a full obe.

I can do what I want then

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Barnowl,
You havnt really had a true lucid dream then by the comment above.
TOTAL control of EVERYTHING.  Its the most lucid state beyond the physical. Its an obe of course but different by far in comparison to the RTZ. The astral is more limited in my opinion by comparison. These are rare too.
It puts a reality question on the physical being the alpha state of conciousness.
Unless there's something I've not read yet?

[Barnowl]

ok...you're probably right...

my apologies (I just thought I had one or two, thats all)

[Pauli2]

TOTAL control of EVERYTHING.  Its the most lucid state beyond the physical.
Its an obe of course but different by far in comparison to the RTZ.

In my mind you seem to mix at least two things. But anyway, Robert Waggoner, former
President of the International Association for the Study of Dreams (IASD), has stated,
due to his extensive experience of LDs, that "the sailor doesn't control the sea".

And Jeez, you even got the guy to apologize.

[Barnowl]

I don't mind apologizing... after all, I could be completely incorrect.

I can only go by my experiences, thats all

But I'm now curious as to what the difference is myself, so I'm now looking at this topic more closely, for my own self-education (and hopefully, more experiences)

[Xanth]

That is how I see it as well. Its all down to, 'awareness', or how much, 'consciousness' is in your etheric body. For dreams, you are, 'barely' conscious (so to speak) so its a bit fuzzy (but you always seem to know what you are doing, so most likely subconsciously moving...)

Then you realize that you are, 'dreaming' and a bit more, 'consciousness' floods in, you realize that you can, 'fly' and do other stuff, but still a bit fuzzy. In my opinion, this is a lucid dream.

Then, you demand clarity, (like what william burlman would say) and suddenly, near crystal clear picture. Suddenly, no fuzzyness (or very little). Your thoughts begin to create easily, and you know where you are (for the most part). You can then, to a degree, manipulate the environment.

You are now in an obe.

I'm no expert, but hopefully this will help. I've had the odd one or two lucid dreams, but the manifesting properties in a lucid dream is still a bit too restrictive for me, hence why I prefer a full obe.

I can do what I want then

This is essentially how I view it as well. 
I don't believe you're wrong at all. 

Hi,
Barnowl,
You havnt really had a true lucid dream then by the comment above.
TOTAL control of EVERYTHING.  Its the most lucid state beyond the physical. Its an obe of course but different by far in comparison to the RTZ. The astral is more limited in my opinion by comparison. These are rare too.
It puts a reality question on the physical being the alpha state of conciousness.
Unless there's something I've not read yet?

Actually, "Control" is a secondary characteristic, separate from "Awareness" of the experience.
You can be completely and perfectly lucid/astrally aware, and yet still not have any control over your surroundings.