Who can you trust in the astral as a true source of real knowledge?

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

This seems like the type of question that is meant for experienced astral projectors. OK so we all know that our minds create and add filters and layers to what we see and experience in the afterlife/astral whatever you want to call it. So is there beings there that we can generally trust as having more true knowledge of the nature of reality? Generally I guess you could call these angels, beings of light, helpers, or whatever. Can I really trust them as having a better source of knowledge over some blow Joe in the afterlife? Or would my mind add layers of interpretation to even the highest of beings in the afterlife? Oh and if there is another way or better way of gaining true knowledge, universal knowledge, objective knowledge in the afterlife let me know. Perhaps the upper dimensions are a better source of real true knowledge.

I just question how I can get true objective universal or true knowledge in the afterlife. A place where the objective and subjective are mixed, and interpretation can skew the truth. Thoughts? Thanks.

[Xanth]

Who can you trust?  It's simple really: Nobody.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Who can you trust?  It's simple really: Nobody.

Really, a part of me wants to say damn this is BS, and the other part of me says it was made this way for a reason.

This would help explain why we need to reincarnate so much. Since the physical seems like the best place to gain real knowledge into the nature of reality. Here we can do objective tests. And eventually I believe science will find spirituality and spirituality and science will merge. What I am trying to say here is that any real path to truth must have reincarnation to this physical dimension as a part of a plan to gain real universal knowledge, and in doing so an end to suffering since all suffering IMO is the lack of real universal objective truth. And it would seem that science is one of the best paths to find that universal knowledge and only by coming to the physical that we are able to gain this knowledge.

This also brings me to anther point which is, what about those people that have NDE's like Eben Alexander, and they go to heaven and they have universal knowledge downloaded into their minds. Eben said something like it would take one a life time to fully even start to grasp one of these universal concepts that he gained in the afterlife. It was so advanced that Eben couldn't even remember all the knowledge that he was able to gain in what he called "the core." A place of sublime bliss and love, with consciousness everywhere with a cosmic being that manifested to him as he God. This is not a phenomena that is unique to Eben Alexander either since it's in many NDEs.

What do you think, is even that universal knowledge attained at the height of the NDE experience tainted?

Thoughts?

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I am also theorizing that if Eben Alexander did in fact gain universal knowledge that is correct and if he died and remembered a lot of it. Then it would be two totally separate ways of gaining this knowledge. One would be direct contact with Eben if that was possible. Then there would be direct contact with the source itself. So in theory perhaps only the source can give true knowledge and anything that is second hand could be tainted. Since only the source could give true knowledge in the afterlife. I am just theorizing here.

Oh and two more people that gained universal knowledge from source in an NDE is Nanci Danison, and Howard Storm.

[Stillwater]

Who can you trust?  It's simple really: Nobody.

Yep, this answer.

Since the physical seems like the best place to gain real knowledge into the nature of reality. Here we can do objective tests. And eventually I believe science will find spirituality and spirituality and science will merge.

This seems very unlikely to be true to me. Would you say the best place to learn about the way your computer hardware works is in a game world? Because that is a pretty close metaphor for the relationship between the greater reality and our current physical world. It feels very much like a kind of software. 

What do you think, is even that universal knowledge attained at the height of the NDE experience tainted?

Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Perhaps it is different for different people- that is what I would expect to be the case anyhow. Sometimes you are deceiving yourself, and sometimes you are seeing clearly. It seems like an NDE should be the same in this regard.

[Stillwater]

Then there would be direct contact with the source itself. So in theory perhaps only the source can give true knowledge and anything that is second hand could be tainted.

Would you know the source when you met it? How would you be sure it wasn't an imposter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnxvKJAv5Ik

When you meet the source, ask it if it wants a starship.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

This seems very unlikely to be true to me. Would you say the best place to learn about the way your computer hardware works is in a game world? Because that is a pretty close metaphor for the relationship between the greater reality and our current physical world. It feels very much like a kind of software.

No I don't think you understand the relationship between this physical world and the spiritual. Or perhaps even the relationship between our thoughts on this physical world. Correct me if I am wrong.

So I do think that the spiritual can be qualified with science. And here is in part how. Perhaps one can't fully understand the spiritual from in the game as you mentioned, but I believe that eventually science will find a way to make anyone astral project for instance at will. Most of those that have studied the spiritual and psychedelics know that even something as psychical as DMT will make you experience the spiritual that is outside of time and space as we know it. If you haven't seen the movie "DMT The Spirit Molecule" yet I urge you to check it out. So there is a direct link between the spiritual and physical here and I have no doubt that science will one day exploit this relationship between the physical and the spiritual deeply in the future. It's already being started with studies of psychedelics happening now.

Also a lot of people believe that when you take a breakthrough dose of a psychedelic that you go to the astral, but the psychedelic also gives you more layers and filters than you would normally have. I am one of those people that believe that.

So in your analogy about being inside of a game and not being able to understand the hardware I think it's kind of off. Since in real life you can move between the playing the game and looking at the hardware from the astral. In other words we aren't stuck here in the physical, and I believe science is the path to find out how to get out of this reality consistently. Psychedelics have been doing it since the dawn of civilization already, and in the coming age I believe we will eventually find the genes that control astral projection, right along with using nanobots to induce OBE's and astral projections.

Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Perhaps it is different for different people- that is what I would expect to be the case anyhow. Sometimes you are deceiving yourself, and sometimes you are seeing clearly. It seems like an NDE should be the same in this regard.

I don't think it's too far out there to say that becoming enlightened within this physical world like the Buddha seems to be a path to truth, yet it can only be attained within this physical life from what I've read.

So I guess my question to you is. What is the path to universal truth into the nature of reality, and an end to suffering with that in the long run? I know there has to be a way and I am trying to find it.

Would you know the source when you met it? How would you be sure it wasn't an imposter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnxvKJAv5Ik

When you meet the source, ask it if it wants a starship.

I would know the source because it is full of consciousness and radiates love. And it wouldn't say unreasonable things like asking for a starship. Source is also located in the upper realms.

Other than that I got to ask are there beings of light masquerading as messiahs in the afterlife?

[Stillwater]

No I don't think you understand the relationship between this physical world and the spiritual. Or perhaps even the relationship between our thoughts on this physical world. Correct me if I am wrong.

You are not wrong. I cannot claim to really know. Everything I say about this is speculation from experience, and deductions from the experience of others, as well as philosophical rationalizations. I can be mistaken in nearly anything.

What do you feel the relationship between the physical world and the spiritual world to be?

I would know the source because it is full of consciousness and radiates love. And it wouldn't say unreasonable things like asking for a starship. Source is also located in the upper realms.

Haven't you ever met that girl who is super sweet, until the wallet closes?

Following this reasoning, the only test you would put a being claiming to be the infinite source to is how nice they are? Honestly, to me, I don't even know how The Source could prove it was The Source to me. It could be lying 900 different ways from Tuesday. I would get zapped like Kirk every time.

I don't think it's too far out there to say that becoming enlightened within this physical world like the Buddha seems to be a path to truth, yet it can only be attained within this physical life from what I've read.

Why do you trust what you have read on this topic? And where did you read it? I have studied Hinduism and Buddhism for years, and I still have no idea what enlightenment is. I find very much of worth within the core of Buddhist teachings- I find value in the 8-fold path's insistence on systematic ethical behavior motivated by compassion, wed to mindfullness- but what enlightenment might be is beyond me. What does it mean to you? I can't talk about what I can't understand.

So I guess my question to you is. What is the path to universal truth into the nature of reality, and an end to suffering with that in the long run?

An end to suffering is indeed what Buddhism promises. The focus on examination of attachments, and striving toward ethical behavior seem to be good things in and of themselves, and I am satisfied with that. Do these practices lead to an end of suffering? I am not a Bodhisattva or a Lama, I cannot say. Perhaps this is not the goal of those in the reality above this one either. We may possibly never know the actual goals within this lifetime. 

Do you believe anyone here has the rightful authority and perspective to answer this question truthfully? I do not. 

[Szaxx]

This post written yesterday after Xants. More replies when time is available.

Trust yourself and develop your NP personality and traits.
Too many physical world ideals will not yield the truth leaving you disconcerted. You do add these debilitating filters autonomously and in the early development stages don't realise it.
Place a strong green filter that completely covers your eyes and switch on a 1000 watt red light. You see nothing as a result.
The greater depths of the NP only appear when you are ready for them.
There's always more than you see or interpret from your travels. Many questions arise and the answers are always there when you look at the big picture. Being able to see the big picture requires an overall perception based upon many differing experiences. Basically you need to learn how to use perceptions that don't exist in physical reality.
The simple answer Xanth has provided. We know nothing is that simple but building a foundation starting with this will keep you on the right track albeit slowly gaining the necessary experiences to push forwards.
Eventually all the entities you meet have a radiant expression of their personality. You can read them and they you in many cases. Those who are negative will avoid contact with you as you are instantly aware of their intent. Only a few will try you and these are well seasoned  in what they do. The environment they are in has its aura and ambience which you instantly know to trust none of the indigenous.
It's live and learn then learn to live.

[Bluefirephoenix]

It's really simple to test. If you look to find a verifiable subject unknown to you then go into astral and try to retreive the infromation. Write it down and compare it with the known facts. You have a good idea as how much is fantasy and how much is genuine perception. There are a couple pools of targets. One here.http://www.crviewer.com/targets/targetindex.php  is the one I use. Write down the date  and find it.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

What do you feel the relationship between the physical world and the spiritual world to be?

I have found what I believe to be a plausible link between the physical the non-physical NP.
I think the best way to understand the link between this physical world and that of the NP is to study psychedelics. You will find that something that purely physical such as DMT powder when injected (Strassman study) can have a direct link between the NP and the physical. To the point of effecting thought processes itself in the NP. For instance each psychedelic has it's own affinity for different types of NP experiences. And yet at the same time they do seem to share the same space. So a big dose of DMT will bring one into the same type of space as that of a big dose of shrooms. Yet they provide different type of filtering and/or layering effects in the NP such as fractals or synesthesia and other things that are unique to the psychedelic experience. And yet at the same time one is able to be in a place that is beyond this physical dimension and time and space as we know it. And they are able to gain messages from this other worldly place, a place that is best described as heaven for lack of a better word.

If you haven't watched the movie "DMT The Spirit Molecule" check it out, then we can have a talk about the relationship between the physical and the NP. I know Xanth said he watched it one time. He even recommended it at the time, probably still does.

Haven't you ever met that girl who is super sweet, until the wallet closes?

No thank God, but I have heard about them gold diggers.

Following this reasoning, the only test you would put a being claiming to be the infinite source to is how nice they are? Honestly, to me, I don't even know how The Source could prove it was The Source to me. It could be lying 900 different ways from Tuesday. I would get zapped like Kirk every time.

LOL I can't see Eben getting zapped in the place he was at. Don't get me wrong I realize there are skeptics of higher beings intentions and there are higher beings that probably do things that aren't in our best interest sometimes. Just when you are talking about a light that is so bright and brilliant and perfect that is beyond words, which is otherworldly and emits sublime bliss and love which is the source of all creativity and love, it's hard to deny it's authority for lack of a better word. Maybe I need to be more skeptical, but you haven't experienced source and Eben has. Let's put it this way I have never heard of an NDE where the person comes back and said the source said some crazy things. Though I have heard some crazy NDE from Christians, but none of these crazy NDEs have source in it from what I remember.

Why do you trust what you have read on this topic? And where did you read it? I have studied Hinduism and Buddhism for years, and I still have no idea what enlightenment is. I find very much of worth within the core of Buddhist teachings- I find value in the 8-fold path's insistence on systematic ethical behavior motivated by compassion, wed to mindfullness- but what enlightenment might be is beyond me. What does it mean to you? I can't talk about what I can't understand.

It's not that I trust it with a capital T. But that I consider a lot of things to be plausible. I am an extremely open minded person, so yes I do tend to side on that of things being plausible than not. I can leave the pulse here and enjoy listening to Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. And then read the Bible in a month from now, and then read about Sufism the next day. It's this open mindedness that has allowed me to grow so much.

I don't remember where I read it.

What is Enlightenment? Enlightenment (Bodhi) is a transformative experience through which the mind is enabled to see and understand the eternal Truth, Known as Dhamma (Dharma). Metaphorically speaking before Enlightenment, one is sleepwalking through life, then after enlightenment, one is Awake, and then can see things as they truly are.

An end to suffering is indeed what Buddhism promises. The focus on examination of attachments, and striving toward ethical behavior seem to be good things in and of themselves, and I am satisfied with that. Do these practices lead to an end of suffering? I am not a Bodhisattva or a Lama, I cannot say. Perhaps this is not the goal of those in the reality above this one either. We may possibly never know the actual goals within this lifetime.

Well I don't necessarily believe everything the Buddha taught either. For instance I believe it's likely plausible that the number one thing that causes suffering isn't attachment or desire, but rather ignorance for lack of knowledge into the nature of reality. And then unskilled desire cases suffering. Then of course the best way to manage ignorance is by gaining true knowledge, and in doing so you gain skilled use of desire.

Do you believe anyone here has the rightful authority and perspective to answer this question truthfully? I do not. 

I don't think anyone has the truth with a capital T, and neither do I, but I do believe we can look at and study plausible interpretations into the nature of reality and ending suffering, which is what I am looking for.

Other than that I like your mentality about reality in being skeptical, yet I do think like I said that we can speculate and come to likely plausible truths about reality which all helps in the overall goal of ending suffering I believe.

[Xanth]

I have found what I believe to be a plausible link between the physical the non-physical NP.

The link is that they're one in the same.  There is no such thing as "physical" or "non-physical".  There's only perception and point of view.

If you haven't watched the movie "DMT The Spirit Molecule" check it out, then we can have a talk about the relationship between the physical and the NP. I know Xanth said he watched it one time. He even recommended it at the time, probably still does.

I have, and I do!  It's a great documentary! 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

The link is that they're one in the same.  There is no such thing as "physical" or "non-physical".  There's only perception and point of view.

What's your definitions for and the difference between perception and point of view?

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I have, and I do!  It's a great documentary! 

And thanks for backing me up on the DMT documentary. 

[Xanth]

What's your definitions for and the difference between perception and point of view?

Sorry, that should probably be "There's only perception / point of view"... as I view them, in this context, as the same thing.

An example is when you test how "physical" a supposed "non-physical reality" is.  When you're experiencing it, it's every bit as physical as this physical reality is.  Yet, while you're there experiencing it, this physical reality then feels like a non-physical reality.  It's all in relative to where you are and what you're experiencing... or: perception / point of view. 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I'll try to reply tomorrow to the rest of the posts here, I'm not feeling good.

[Stillwater]

What is Enlightenment? Enlightenment (Bodhi) is a transformative experience through which the mind is enabled to see and understand the eternal Truth, Known as Dhamma (Dharma). Metaphorically speaking before Enlightenment, one is sleepwalking through life, then after enlightenment, one is Awake, and then can see things as they truly are.

And have you ever met a person like this? How would you know them from a person who only seemed to be enlightened? If you are not enlightened yourself, how do you know that others have ever been, rather than have merely claimed to have been, or else had others posthumously claim that of them? It seems like a "takes one to know one" situation, and if that is true, how do we know it is a real thing if we aren't enlightend ourselves?

At what point will you say to yourself, "I am really seeing things as they truly are"? How would you know that you were not mistaken about something, or self-deceived?

[Xanth]

I always say that enlightenment is kind of like being "cool" in high school...
If you have to tell people you're enlightened, then you're probably not. 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

This post written yesterday after Xants. More replies when time is available.

I mostly agree with Xanths post.

Trust yourself and develop your NP personality and traits.
Too many physical world ideals will not yield the truth leaving you disconcerted. You do add these debilitating filters autonomously and in the early development stages don't realise it.

I guess when I think of using worldly knowledge to gain spiritual knowledge I am more talking about what will happen when science and spirituality meet. I am am pretty confident science and spirituality will merge. But yeah I agree too much worldly knowledge in this day and age won't necessarily lead to spiritual breakthroughs. But it's also plausible that reincarnating here long enough until science and spirituality merges can lead to possibly gaining universal knowledge in purer forms.

The greater depths of the NP only appear when you are ready for them.

Yeah this concept in general makes me question if I should take a psychedelic before I die. It might allow me to reach higher realms faster at death, but it might not allow other forms of growth that I might need in the lower realms.

There's always more than you see or interpret from your travels. Many questions arise and the answers are always there when you look at the big picture. Being able to see the big picture requires an overall perception based upon many differing experiences. Basically you need to learn how to use perceptions that don't exist in physical reality.

I like that.

The simple answer Xanth has provided. We know nothing is that simple but building a foundation starting with this will keep you on the right track albeit slowly gaining the necessary experiences to push forwards.
Eventually all the entities you meet have a radiant expression of their personality. You can read them and they you in many cases. Those who are negative will avoid contact with you as you are instantly aware of their intent. Only a few will try you and these are well seasoned  in what they do. The environment they are in has its aura and ambience which you instantly know to trust none of the indigenous.

I'll keep that in mind.

It's live and learn then learn to live.

I am trying to understand that. Do you mean at first it's all about survival but then as you learn how things work and are well adjusted then you are able to learn more?

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

It's really simple to test. If you look to find a verifiable subject unknown to you then go into astral and try to retreive the infromation. Write it down and compare it with the known facts. You have a good idea as how much is fantasy and how much is genuine perception. There are a couple pools of targets. One here.http://www.crviewer.com/targets/targetindex.php  is the one I use. Write down the date  and find it.

I am not really interested in practicing astral projection right now. Though I did find myself practicing it the other day. But in general now that I am in school and trying to get a girl friend I feel like I don't have time for anything. But no doubt whether I learn to astral project proficiently or not in this lifetime I will still use the knowledge I have gained here either in this life or in the afterlife.  

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Sorry, that should probably be "There's only perception / point of view"... as I view them, in this context, as the same thing.

An example is when you test how "physical" a supposed "non-physical reality" is.  When you're experiencing it, it's every bit as physical as this physical reality is.  Yet, while you're there experiencing it, this physical reality then feels like a non-physical reality.  It's all in relative to where you are and what you're experiencing... or: perception / point of view. 

You make a good point, though let me ask what's the differences between this physical reality and this other astral like reality?

[Xanth]

You make a good point, though let me ask what's the differences between this physical reality and this other astral like reality?

Nothing. This physical reality *IS* just another (for lack of a better word) "astral" reality.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Nothing. This physical reality *IS* just another (for lack of a better word) "astral" reality.

I find that hard to believe since there would be quite more materializations of beings from other planets here on earth that end up just disappearing. How do you explain that?

[Xanth]

I find that hard to believe since there would be quite more materializations of beings from other planets here on earth that end up just disappearing. How do you explain that?

There are.  Most people simply don't realize it.  Where do you think Crop Circles come from?
Remember, MOST people experiencing this reality think it's material and physical... MOST people shy away from any data which goes against that notion because they, quite simply, can't handle it. 
It's called Cognitive Dissonance.  The thought of this reality NOT being what most people WANT it to be causes so much pain and suffering that most people will do whatever they can to avoid the alternative.

I mean, look at the very response you JUST typed out.  You awareness is trying to hold onto your "physical" paradigm extremely strongly.  You posit that it's "hard to believe", then you give some random reason for why it's "hard to believe" in an attempt to reinforce within yourself that this reality REALLY IS as physical and real as you want to believe it is.

I've embraced it.  It's not all that scary when you're looking at it from the other side.
The evidence for all of this is all around us... stop tuning it out.

Now, yes, this physical reality is much more "stable" than any dream/projection you might have.
That's due to the sheer number of consciousnesses experiencing and creating within this reality.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I'll get to the rest of you later. In the meantime let me reply to Xanth.

There are.  Most people simply don't realize it.  Where do you think Crop Circles come from?
Remember, MOST people experiencing this reality think it's material and physical... MOST people shy away from any data which goes against that notion because they, quite simply, can't handle it. 
It's called Cognitive Dissonance.  The thought of this reality NOT being what most people WANT it to be causes so much pain and suffering that most people will do whatever they can to avoid the alternative.

I mean, look at the very response you JUST typed out.  You awareness is trying to hold onto your "physical" paradigm extremely strongly.  You posit that it's "hard to believe", then you give some random reason for why it's "hard to believe" in an attempt to reinforce within yourself that this reality REALLY IS as physical and real as you want to believe it is.

I've embraced it.  It's not all that scary when you're looking at it from the other side.
The evidence for all of this is all around us... stop tuning it out.

Now, yes, this physical reality is much more "stable" than any dream/projection you might have.
That's due to the sheer number of consciousnesses experiencing and creating within this reality.

I want to know more about this other physical like reality you were at. Were you able to make things appear and disappear? Or any other supernatural type things? Do you believe that you were in this physical dimension or some place like this physical dimension but probably not this dimension?

BTW I am not questioning too much that it's possible that one can materialize in this physical dimension since I've heard it can be done with what I believe to be pretty credible people, like Howard Storm talked about his experience with a materialized of an angel/higher being of some sort in his book. But I generally view it as something that only very highly evolved spiritual beings can do.

Thoughts?