Breaking down the f10's and beyond?

[Shivers]

I haven't been here long and it's only recently that I'm reading about f10's, 12's 15's, etc etc.  Think I've seen mentioned in threads up to f25/27?

All of this is really confusing for me and possibly for other newbies too, so was wondering if someone more experienced would be able to take a little time in explaining these levels please? 

[Xanth]

Monroe Model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_level

Kepple Model: http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

[Rudolph]

A couple days ago I projected into the "floating blackness". I recorded it in my journal that way.

These focus schema are not intuitive and I do not see how it can improve my ability to project or help communicate my travels in a more meaningful way.

In my experience they just confuse people. Sometimes I see someone reporting an OBE experience on these forums and they use these focus numbers which only makes sense to those who have gone to the trouble to memorize them... which means most people won't know what they are talking about.

[CFTraveler]

Rudolph, I personally also favor the 'old fashioned' etheric to astral to mental to causal, etc. planes classification (simply because it is more intuitive for me, as they describe experiences instead of classifying them by a number, which isn't descriptive at all.
Xanth, isn't there a thread here that compares them all in a side to side manner, to help everyone 'see' these better?

[Lionheart]

 I only refer to the Focus levels when I find myself in a Phase session that correlates with one of them. Like last week when I found myself in an area where everyone was spasming, walking in circles and pretty well complete zombie like. I found this to be an area known as Focus 22. I keep a full journal of all my Phase Sessions and once a month I go back and try to find patterns or areas that I visit more than once. To this date I have had 3 Retrievals and the only area I go to constantly is my beginning point, my safe zone, my beach.

[Shivers]

Thanks for the information

You do retrievals Lionheart?  Wow!

[Lionheart]

 It didn't start out that way. I was in a Phase Session that just happened to change into a retrieval. I really didn't even know what a retrieval was the first time it happened to me. The next 2 times it occurred it was spontaneous as well. I just found myself in a situation where I felt I could help and it turned into a full blown retrieval session. I finally found out what a retrieval was while reading Frank Kepple's PDF created by Xanth here.

[Xanth]

Xanth, isn't there a thread here that compares them all in a side to side manner, to help everyone 'see' these better?

From what I remember, there's just the Frank Kepple resource.  He lists each of his Focus "of Consciousness" levels and relates them to what Monroe Focus levels they encompass. 

[CFTraveler]

Yes, but aren't those  basically different number systems for the same thing- F1 is F10? (I think) but that doesn't compare it to an expeiretal level (such as the RTZ or etheric) if you had something like that it would be easy to read for everyone, I think.  Didn't Contenteo draw something up using all the nomenclature? Or is it just consciousness levels?

[Xanth]

There's http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39504726/Contenteos2011ConceptualFramework.jpg

Which is what I think you're referring to. 

[CFTraveler]

It looks like he didn't, which is too bad.

[Xanth]

We can ask him to add it in. 

[Rudolph]

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sant-mat/charts-of-the-heavens-exploring-the-higher-planes-the-inner-space-within-you/392868416160

I like the one near the bottom with the Hubble images under the Physical realm.

The delineation showing where we hit the realms beyond duality could be instructive for a LOT of OBEers.

The upper levels of the Astral are still very low on the scale for these Masters in the Sant Mat tradition.
Physical -- Astral -- Causal -- SuperCausal -- [Great Void crossing] -- and then you start to get into the Eternal Realms

[Contenteo]

When I first came on to the forum, I had no idea what any of these F10/F12 things were about at all. However, once I realized they were tools to help me achieve what I wanted in a systematic repeatable no-hassle fashion, I understood their power and their importance.

PROBLEM
You see language needs context to exist. All context has bias. If I use a word, and you don't like the word, you will not like the model and can say it is wrong/not representationally faithful from a XYZ perspective. In which case, you would be right. We could not advanced until we agree upon a given nomenclature for the phenomenon we are attempting to explain. We would argue and argue, saying the same thing, but disagreeing on linguistics.

As a newcomer, this is all I saw. Linguistic debate after linguistic debate. Even worse, because we are describing the intangible, and things get funky in there, people were leading me in all types of directions; good, bad, and ugly.

SOLUTION
The key to this dilemma was to step back and take an independent point of view. As a intangibles accountant by trade, I can assure you that the solution to this is well verified(consensus among peers) bright-lines (separating criteria) in the phenomenon we are attempting to measure. Because we are talking intangible stuff, the best we could ever do would be some sort of symbol system. It happens that the Monroe F## Model fits this necessity rather brilliantly.

Progress comes when you realize what the difference is between these placeholders. We are not putting them there to confuse you, but for you to critically ask yourself the question, what IS the difference between a F10 and F12 state, etc.This is what fosters progress

Yes, this takes some research and some practice, but that is what is needed in any discipline to become adept. I can guarantee you that there is no level that put in this model is just to make it confusing. You hit every stage while going into a projection. Every stage builds to the next. People agree on it.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY is its lack on context. There is no funky words like in above link. There is no misguiding adjectives. There is nothing to be misinterpreted. There is no references to a God. There is something that everyone on this planet can agree to without giving up their own personal bias to conform.

If we are to progress as a society and really become a community that can transcend the physical and talk about it without creeping anybody out, tinkling anybody off, and be overall respected as a phenomenon that actually exists, there are necessary elements that will help out the transition. Transcending your attachment to language is one of them.

I am all for adding some more descriptors into that model, you can guarantee I  have done some work on it since what I made in May. I'll release it in a bit. Ask yourself though, what is more helpful about that model, the words or the shapes and overall ideas?


Cheers,
Contenteo


P.S. Learning how to effectively achieve a F10 state, Mind Awake-Body Asleep", on command is a must if you are ever going to get out of body. It is your first step. Here is the article I read over and over when started it all for me.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/focus_10_mind_awakebody_asleep-t24783.0.html

[Rudolph]

what IS the difference between a F10 and F12 state, etc.This is what fosters progress

I don't even know what F10 is and I project OBE on a fairly regular basis. I have experienced all kinds of problems and have gotten past them without any sort of "F" style nomenclature at all. I can see that they are just as much a hindrance to progress for some, as they might be a help for others. I do not see how the nomenclature helps to solve any of the real "doing" type problems. It facilitates communication if done well. That's it.

If I use a word, and you don't like the word, you will not like the model and can say it is wrong/not...

The same thing can be said about an "F" system of numbers. Especially if it jumps all over the place and doesn't make sense.

the Monroe F## Model fits this necessity rather brilliantly.

Can you give an example or two to clarify this? If I am assembling a piece of furniture and the instructions say "fit joint J1 to J2 and secure with bolt style B3 I can see the sense of it. But in the AP activity I do not see how the "F" system is functional at all.

Yes, this takes some research and some practice, but that is what is needed in any discipline to become adept

The Sant Mat charts that I linked to were formulated by a line of Adepts stretching into antiquity and they have mapped out the subtle regions in a manner that makes the "F" style description look ridiculously confused imo.
I think Monroe himself realized what a disjointed mish-mash his F system had become and abandoned it later on. One of his later instruction sets used "Condition A,B,C,D"
Also totally meaningless... oh well
...whatever...

[Contenteo]

All languages are important as we live in a society with many languages, but one of them has to hold the disciplines interests above any one group of people's personal interests. Look at any respected profession and you can see they have a language of their own, law, accounting, carpentry, medicine,etc.

It facilitates communication if done well.

Yes, this is the main point.

Universal communication without bias. 
No stereotyping.
A culture that transcends physical, racial, proximal culture in hopes of linking them by focusing on the base experiences people have.

The same thing can be said about an "F" system of numbers. Especially if it jumps all over the place and doesn't make sense.

Yes, the F# system is a language. But it is a language of symbols, which can become universal. It caries no sovereignty except to the discipline itself. It doesn't jump all over the place.
3 10 12 15 18 21 22 _{baring 1 and 11(unneeded when projecting)}
There is only 7 major steps. And when you start subjectively measuring disconnectedness sequentially, each F# is about where it should be in proportion to the next. In addition he left a little room for amendments later, like we leave out exits on our highways.

Can you give an example or two to clarify this? If I am assembling a piece of furniture and the instructions say "fit joint J1 to J2 and secure with bolt style B3 I can see the sense of it. But in the AP activity I do not see how the "F" system is functional at all.

They are using multiple sequential processes in that example. The F system, up to a point is one dimensional. F3 fits into F10. Wait. F10 fits into F12. Wait. Disconnect. F12 fits into F15. Wait. More disconnecting. F15 fits...etc.
You are going to have to make a mental map sooner or later with this discipline. The F# model is as conceptually lean as it gets. When you are projecting the simpler the model, the more effective it will be. Also, it reinforces that these are simple different states of mind, VITAL when explaining the concept to a conservative audience.

The Sant Mat charts that I linked to were formulated by a line of Adepts stretching into antiquity and they have mapped out the subtle regions in a manner that makes the "F" style description look ridiculously confused imo.

The charts that you posted are good, however they go very very deep, well past the Monroe Model. I certainly have not been to the high high realms, nor do I think any newcomer needs to be ready to prepare for the "super-causal plane" on their first projection attempts. What a newcomer needs to understand is a detailed map of the lower levels to help them get started and reach the first milestone. Getting to the astral plane. That is what the Monroe model lays out it crisp concise detail. Universal enlightenment is a wonderful goal, but the world needs to see that utility in it first. In my opinion, the day we have the problem of scientifically debating the accuracy of the high level section of our models will be a very good day indeed.


Cheers,
Contenteo

[Rudolph]

"What a newcomer needs to understand is a detailed map of the lower levels to help them get started and reach the first milestone. Getting to the astral plane. ..."

The Sant Mat Masters teach that wasting any time at all on the Astral plane is a huge mistake. They observe that too many otherwise capable students waste an entire lifetime trying to master the game of tiddleywinks once they see a single throw.

One big giant waste of a lifetime.

BEYOND Supercausal is the ONLY worthy Goal for beginners and the only concern of the capable Aspirants among them.

Those who can effectively explore the astral would do well to drop the astral entirely and pursue the Atmic and beyond if this lifetime were to amount to anything meaningful in the eternal scheme of things.

[CFTraveler]

The Sant Mat Masters teach that wasting any time at all on the Astral plane is a huge mistake. They observe that too many otherwise capable students waste an entire lifetime trying to master the game of tiddleywinks once they see a single throw.

This is very interesting, Rudolph.  Could you point me to some reading material, please?  Like a 'book' book.

[Rudolph]

This is very interesting, Rudolph.  Could you point me to some reading material, please?  Like a 'book' book.

Here is the Sant Mat classic for westerners;

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_path_of_the_masters.html?id=ZecSAAAAMAAJ

I will look around for a more modern author. Hopefully one that does not get caught up in too much of the "my Master is the real Master" stuff.

I suggest buffering that work with some of Baba Faqir Chand's revelations;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Faqir_Chand

i.e. the Chandian Effect... where these so called "Masters" have no conscious recall of the experiences that their initiates are reporting of meeting them in the Inner planes and travelling into the High Spiritual Realms.

Beware the whole "Initiation Game" and the my Sat Guru is the real Sat Guru debates.

The Sant Mat Path Master lineage has splintered badly in recent decades.

[CFTraveler]

Here is the Sant Mat classic for westerners;

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_path_of_the_masters.html?id=ZecSAAAAMAAJ

I will look around for a more modern author. Hopefully one that does not get caught up in too much of the "my Master is the real Master" stuff.

I suggest buffering that work with some of Baba Faqir Chand's revelations;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Faqir_Chand

i.e. the Chandian Effect... where these so called "Masters" have no conscious recall of the experiences that their initiates are reporting of meeting them in the Inner planes and travelling into the High Spiritual Realms.

Beware the whole "Initiation Game" and the my Sat Guru is the real Sat Guru debates.

The Sant Mat Path Master lineage has splintered badly in recent decades.

Thank you very much.

[Contenteo]

Well that certainly fits the "beyond" portion of the Topic Subject.

This is all great stuff. I love the selflessness sewn into fabric of this perspective as well. For example, how Masters should never charge $, however the western world has badly bastardized this concept.

It certainly has given me something noble to aspire too alongside one day reaching the Akashic records.

Those who can effectively explore the astral would do well to drop the astral entirely and pursue the Atmic and beyond if this lifetime were to amount to anything meaningful in the eternal scheme of things.

Although I can empathize with this noble intention, let's not solve for a problem we don't have yet. Let's just help people shut their eyes and understand what a F10 "Mind Awake, Body Asleep" state is first. You know, if you give a mouse a cookie...


Cheers,
Contenteo