A little question / debate for those expirienced AP ers

[majour ka]

Hi all, hope your well and enjoying your day

I know this is a contentious issue and one that's been debated many times but,

I believe and it makes sense that consciousness is infinite and when we are phasing or lucid traveling in the dream scape for example we are just shifting our conscious awareness to a non physical state/place reality what ever you prefer to call it or understand it. But in reality we haven't left our bodies.. Just expanded our mind beyond it.

However: when we have what I call an OBE my entire conscious awareness has left my physical body and is then traveling with an energy version of my physical body, so as far as my physical body is concerned I've left it behind. In that state I know we are still attached to our body but I have no awareness of it or contact with it. Only a knowledge that it exists. So I believe and know that there are profound differences between the states I have described. I'm wondering if (and I don't say this to be challenging, im just curious) that if someone can't relate to that separation of mind and body then they haven't had a conscious OBE.
I often see people asking, did I do it ? If there's any doubt then I believe the answers no. When you OBE then there is no mistaking.

I've had an OBE (infact a NDE) where I went so far I had no interest in my physical life and definitely wasn't coming back. But I was made to by some guy in a cloak with a hoodie. Before anyone newish worries about that, please be aware he hoodie guy took me to a place where I could feel and experience something of the joy love and bliss that awaited us in the next life. Which I have never felt In any other travels. It's usually hard to stay out ! Lol.  

We might argue that we are not actually in our bodies and it's all just a question of focus, but it's a bit hair splity really lol.

So what dya think folks ...?  

[Xanth]

I believe and it makes sense that consciousness is infinite and when we are phasing or lucid traveling in the dream scape for example we are just shifting our conscious awareness to a non physical state/place reality what ever you prefer to call it or understand it. But in reality we haven't left our bodies.. Just expanded our mind beyond it.

However: when we have what I call an OBE my entire conscious awareness has left my physical body and is then traveling with an energy version of my physical body, so as far as my physical body is concerned I've left it behind. In that state I know we are still attached to our body but I have no awareness of it or contact with it. Only a knowledge that it exists. So I believe and know that there are profound differences between the states I have described. I'm wondering if (and I don't say this to be challenging, im just curious) that if someone can't relate to that separation of mind and body then they haven't had a conscious OBE.
I often see people asking, did I do it ? If there's any doubt then I believe the answers no. When you OBE then there is no mistaking.

I've had an OBE (infact a NDE) where I went so far I had no interest in my physical life and definitely wasn't coming back. But I was made to by some guy in a cloak with a hoodie. Before anyone newish worries about that, please be aware he hoodie guy took me to a place where I could feel and experience something of the joy love and bliss that awaited us in the next life. Which I have never felt In any other travels. It's usually hard to stay out ! Lol. 

We might argue that we are not actually in our bodies and it's all just a question of focus, but it's a bit hair splity really lol.

So what dya think folks ...? 

I'd say that you're still stuck on this idea that you have a "body" at all. 

I fully believe that this "physical reality" that we experience is nothing but "just another non-physical reality".
It's a reality constructed and kept alive by the consciousnesses of the people experiencing it.

Consider that in relation to what you're asking above now. 

[Bedeekin]

Invariably I have the perception of not being IN my body anymore when I have an OOBE, in the sense that I am fully aware throughout the entire experience that I am actually in bed in this reality and what I was doing prior to the experience.

To not be aware of my physical existence while projecting can be said that it becomes a 'dream'. In the sense I am fully wrapped up in the experience and believe that the giant Gnu is going to attack me while I decorate my dead uncles magic palace in my underwear.

This is the energy version of our body. The 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms it is made up of are bound together with the most potent energy in the physical universe. Although as Xanth says this body is as much an illusion as the nonphysical one... it has the capability - if the energy contained was released - to completely annihilate this local star system. In doing so would potentially end the existence of the conscious awarenesses keeping it alive.

[majour ka]

I'd say that you're still stuck on this idea that you have a "body" at all. 

I fully believe that this "physical reality" that we experience is nothing but "just another non-physical reality".
It's a reality constructed and kept alive by the consciousnesses of the people experiencing it.

Consider that in relation to what you're asking above now. 

Totally agree xanth, this world is with out a shadow of a doubt an illusion of the senses.
I guess what I should have asked or suggested is that I believe on some level we are traveling using an ethereal version of the physical. Both illusions in reality, but the illusion that is giving expression of a sense if self at anyone time. I don't think there is a difinitive answer, but I find that sits as a closer idea of the true nature of things.
Let's consider someone has physically died, they will no longer have an association of the physical body, just a memory or etheric version prehaps aslong it serves them. So why can't that be the case while having an OBE. It's natrual for us, so why not.

[Xanth]

Let's consider someone has physically died, they will no longer have an association of the physical body, just a memory or etheric version prehaps aslong it serves them. So why can't that be the case while having an OBE. It's natrual for us, so why not.

Because what we "believe" to be a physical body doesn't objectively exist.  What's natural is that you, and everything you can experience is all consciousness.

... as I'm slowly coming to terms with.  LoL

[Astralzombie]

I'm new to this forum but I am an experienced projector. I have to say that I absolutely reject the idea that we are not living in a physical reality right now. Especially that we are experiencing a collective conscience NPR. The reason is all the "evil, hate, bad energy" what ever you prefer to call it, that is prevailing. I believe that good is the strongest, the largest, and most predominant force there is. Therefore, if we were all experiencing an NPR held by our collective consciences  wouldn't that mean there would be a lot less "evil" right now, right here. I think this is the reality where all the bad can run a muck and how we let it affect us individually will determine the work we will have to do next.

Since I have never felt any kind of physical pain (just odd sensations) during an OBE, I think that pain is something we need to feel in the physical right here to better understand it and use that knowledge to work thru what we have to in the next. I think if we had to deal with pain physically in the next, it would be a big hindrance to our spiritual growth.

Hope I wasn't to literal. If I didn't make sense, keep in mind that I am trying to reconcile my Christian beliefs with what I am starting to learn and experience with the NPR. I love this website.

[Bedeekin]

Of course we are living in a physical reality right now. This is physical reality. We are all experiencing a physical reality.

When you say 'our' collective consciousness... do you mean every bodies consciousness or just those that are awakened?

Why would there be a lot less evil/badness? Not everybody shares the same idea of 'good'. Look at the different cultures and their idea of good according to their religion or beliefs. Not everyone is good but I bet they think they are good... their ego tells them so.

Also.. this reality doesn't shape itself on the whims of the consciousnesses that share it. It's a collective cooking pot of individuals with different ideas, thoughts, wants and desires and views about what it right and wrong.

The actual thing you speak of... where we all move to a reality that contains predominantly good is the point to why we are here. To do just that. If there was a snap of a finger and it was suddenly paradise nothing has been learned.

[Stookie_]

There's a microcosm and a macrocosm and you have to take both into account.

[Pauli2]

Totally agree xanth, this world is with out a shadow of a doubt an illusion of the senses.

What do you base this theory on, what kind of experience?

[majour ka]

Because what we "believe" to be a physical body doesn't objectively exist.  What's natural is that you, and everything you can experience is all consciousness.

... as I'm slowly coming to terms with.  LoL

Oh I agree, Im just getting down to the mechanics of things. 

[majour ka]

I'm new to this forum but I am an experienced projector. I have to say that I absolutely reject the idea that we are not living in a physical reality right now. Especially that we are experiencing a collective conscience NPR. The reason is all the "evil, hate, bad energy" what ever you prefer to call it, that is prevailing. I believe that good is the strongest, the largest, and most predominant force there is. Therefore, if we were all experiencing an NPR held by our collective consciences  wouldn't that mean there would be a lot less "evil" right now, right here. I think this is the reality where all the bad can run a muck and how we let it affect us individually will determine the work we will have to do next.

Since I have never felt any kind of physical pain (just odd sensations) during an OBE, I think that pain is something we need to feel in the physical right here to better understand it and use that knowledge to work thru what we have to in the next. I think if we had to deal with pain physically in the next, it would be a big hindrance to our spiritual growth.

Hope I wasn't to literal. If I didn't make sense, keep in mind that I am trying to reconcile my Christian beliefs with what I am starting to learn and experience with the NPR. I love this website.

Hi, welcome to the pulse, I believe thats true also, as in this world is subject to pain and suffering that we cannot experience in a non physical world and is therefore no doubt an essential part of the physical journey. I also go along with what xanth is saying in this world is non physical world in some ways, but of course feels physical to our senses. So we could agree its physical to  humans and at some level. But in reality its still an illusion. We see the world as our consciousness allows us, not as it really is. But then we are splitting hairs again lol

[majour ka]

What do you base this theory on, what kind of experience?

Hi Pauli, good question.
Through my own evolvement now and also my personal experiences before I took an active interest in the subject.

Ten years ago I was in spain and a friend and I witnessed the physical matter in her house shift vibrate and dissolve into a cloud of mist!! the walls, tables chairs, etc all wobbled visually, vibrated and disappeared! We were then privileged to be greeted by a half hour display of spirit people manifesting in the room enshrouded in a mist of purple and gold light.
SOUNDS FAR FETCHED I KNOW, but that is exactly what happened.
You don't know me but I don't do sensationalism, I like to work with facts and reason. Im sure many people might doubt my experience but we both saw it all happen in broad daylight and needless to say it blew our minds and was initially quite unnerving. More to the point we had first hand experience of the FACT that this world is not solid matter but something else. For maybe a year after I frequently saw the floors and walls shift but didn't want to see anymore so would go and occupy myself with something else.
I have now been meditating for some years and through the evolvement and attunement of my mind I am very much more aware of the make up of reality.
Since then I have discovered what many people here will know, that every scientist and physicists the world over agrees that our world is not of solid matter but of particles of energy vibrating at a frequency that gives our five senses the illusion of being solid. Something mystics and religious gurus have known for thousands of years. Even colour has been proven to be a subjective experience. I know that personally as one of my eyes sees slightly different colour from the other.
Whn i have vistid the spirit world in OBE that too appears to be just as real as this one, juts brighter, cleaner, more radiant. But I know that it also is just compatible to our senses and entirely subjective.

Maybe that day in spain, both my friend Zoe and I were privileged to have our minds some how shift to a space that allowed us to look beyond the illusion of matter for a short time, no doubt enabled and facilitated by those who wished to manifest on that day. UNLESS those who visited were completely responsible for the adjustment of matter. Im sure they played their part but either way, physical matter is an illusion, I KNOW THAT !

[Pauli2]

Ten years ago I was in spain and a friend and I witnessed the physical matter in her house shift vibrate and dissolve into a cloud of mist!! the walls, tables chairs, etc all wobbled visually, vibrated and disappeared! We were then privileged to be greeted by a half hour display of spirit people manifesting in the room enshrouded in a mist of purple and gold light.

But something more must have happened, to make you think this way?

Because you could as well just have entered an altered state of consciousness,
similar to the reality fluctuations people experience in the RTZ. Why do you
think it was physical reality which dissolved and not just you, who moved
into a nonphysical world, while physical reality still remained unchanged
on Earth (in Spain)?

I guess the walls, tables etc were not gone forever once your state of mind
returned to normal?

What did make you draw the conclusion that physical reality was an illusion,
which dissolved in front of your eyes and not just you and your friend
entering an altered state of consciousness, being temporarily
somewhere else?

Was there something which induced your altered state of consciousness,
something like meditations or drugs?

[majour ka]

But something more must have happened, to make you think this way?

Because you could as well just have entered an altered state of consciousness,
similar to the reality fluctuations people experience in the RTZ. Why do you
think it was physical reality which dissolved and not just you, who moved
into a nonphysical world, while physical reality still remained unchanged
on Earth (in Spain)?

I guess the walls, tables etc were not gone forever once your state of mind
returned to normal?

What did make you draw the conclusion that physical reality was an illusion,
which dissolved in front of your eyes and not just you and your friend
entering an altered state of consciousness, being temporarily
somewhere else?

Was there something which induced your altered state of consciousness,
something like meditations or drugs?

Well I can tell you that was enough...to see it first hand. I have to ask what would be the difference if it was our joint perception or an objective change? Either way it showed us that physical matter is not solid as we might believe it but subject to change either at a molecular level or by a shift of consciousness that can perceive its true nature or another version of its true nature. Both point to the same conclusion, physical matter is an illusion.

I am now a working psychic and spiritualist medium. So in my work I will see clairvoyantly that which others are not seeing. Had we both being seeing through clairvoyance im sure with no doubt there would have been discrepancies, but we both witnessed it exactly the same, so that points to the phenomena being of a physical nature. But again even if it was through clairvoyance, it points to the same reality. Its just either perceived via the eyes or the mind...is one more real than the other?
Also through clairvoyance that which we perceive objectively or subjectively in our mind would not be fixed in location ie it would shift with our minds. But instead it continued to happen there at one area of the room..and was still going on after I got up walked through the mist into the kitchen got us a drink and came back and sat of the sofa and continued to watch the show...at which we both laughed out loud !!

No drugs but we had just had a curry... from Roys Pizza and Indian take away.

[majour ka]

P.S I do realise its hard to believe..but I swear on my own mothers eye sight that what we saw.

I can only reach the conclusion as a result of my experience, but I don't expect everyone else to have the same belief or thinking. Im also open to the idea that one day ill have a new understanding of it, but until then .. :-

[Pauli2]

I have to ask what would be the difference if it was our joint perception or an objective change?

It matters a great deal, because if it's outside our minds, we can't alter
reality in the same way, as it's externally to us.

We have to plan our actions differently.

Either way it showed us that physical matter is not solid as we might believe it but subject to change either at a molecular level or by a shift of consciousness that can perceive its true nature or another version of its true nature. Both point to the same conclusion, physical matter is an illusion.

It still leaves a lot more questions, than if it was just an alteration of your state of mind.

If you really think it was reality changing at molecular level, who initiated it?
How was it done on every every molecule, who restored it and how was
physical matter restored?

...we both witnessed it exactly the same, so that points to the phenomena being of a physical nature. But again even if it was through clairvoyance, it points to the same reality. Its just either perceived via the eyes or the mind...is one more real than the other?
Also through clairvoyance that which we perceive objectively or subjectively in our mind would not be fixed in location ie it would shift with our minds. But instead it continued to happen there at one area of the room..and was still going on after I got up walked through the mist into the kitchen got us a drink and came back and sat of the sofa and continued to watch the show...at which we both laughed out loud !!

You sure were two cool persons. I would have shlt my pants.

Anyway, I have to give you credit for those details as they talk in favor of your theory.

[Lionheart]

P.S I do realise its hard to believe..but I swear on my own mothers eye sight that what we saw.

I can only reach the conclusion as a result of my experience, but I don't expect everyone else to have the same belief or thinking. Im also open to the idea that one day ill have a new understanding of it, but until then .. :-

Tom Campbell says you see what you need to see.

By seeing what you saw it drew you even further into your current path in life, which was the true purpose all along!

This is why when I Phase, I don't set any intention on a particular destination. I just ask to see what i need to see and learn what I need to learn.

Except, yes, once in awhile, I do just go and lay on the beach. But this is usually when I am either in extreme pain or just need to relax for awhile.

Many times this in itself leads to some kind of adventure. 

[majour ka]

It matters a great deal, because if it's outside our minds, we can't alter
reality in the same way, as it's externally to us.

We have to plan our actions differently.


It still leaves a lot more questions, than if it was just an alteration of your state of mind.

If you really think it was reality changing at molecular level, who initiated it?
How was it done on every every molecule, who restored it and how was
physical matter restored?


You sure were two cool persons. I would have shlt my pants.

Anyway, I have to give you credit for those details as they talk in favor of your theory.

Hi Pauli, I still don't know the real answer but it makes some sense to me. Re shitting our pants, we did to begin with when everything started moving!!! When I got up and got the drink it made us both laugh at what had up until then been a seriously mad intense and slightly unnerving experience !!

While we are here, are you familiar with Aports ? Where the spirit people who have gained the skill are able to de materialise objects ie flowers, ornaments, etc and remainifest them at another location. I have wittinessed it only a couple of times. Even branches off a tree coverd in cherry blossom had been dropped into a seance in the depths of winter! My friend still has a scar on his hand from here a feather was apported bro the room and his hand was so close to the medium it left burn marks on his hand. I had a saint Christopher given to me in a seance. It literally fell out if thin air. The reason I mention this is that it might be a reasonable example of how things can be dematerialised into non physical matter then relocated as solid matter agian and that included a organic living things !

[majour ka]

Tom Campbell says you see what you need to see.

By seeing what you saw it drew you even further into your current path in life, which was the true purpose all along!

This is why when I Phase, I don't set any intention on a particular destination. I just ask to see what i need to see and learn what I need to learn.

Except, yes, once in awhile, I do just go and lay on the beach. But this is usually when I am either in extreme pain or just need to relax for awhile.

Many times this in itself leads to some kind of adventure. 

Nice, that actually resonated through my belly as I read that in a yes how true ! Kind of Goose bump way, but then I have just been meditating. But yes that makes sense and very profound for me personally as u was just meditating on what my soul wants me to excipience and learn ! Thanks lionheart

[Szaxx]

I wonder if this ties in with the dissapearing objects thing.
You put something down in a safe place, leave for a few hours, come back and its gone. You are alone and no-one else has access.
An intensive search reveals nothing. You then find the object exactly where you left it hours later.
Whats going on?

[Xanth]

I wonder if this ties in with the dissapearing objects thing.
You put something down in a safe place, leave for a few hours, come back and its gone. You are alone and no-one else has access.
An intensive search reveals nothing. You then find the object exactly where you left it hours later.
Whats going on?

It's funny, but Tom Campbells mbt answers this question readily. 

[majour ka]

It's funny, but Tom Campbells mbt answers this question readily. 

What does he say xanth ?

[Astralzombie]

This is a great thread. I have not read a lot of the suggested works because I do want my interpretations influenced by others yet. I know this leads to a lot of questions that have been answered countless times and could even threaten Gandhi's patience so I want to thank everyone here for that.

With that said, I am quickly losing most of my preconceived religious beliefs. This is a little troubling but I'm fine with it because it's happening through my own experiences. In fact the opposite is more disturbing when I think of how much misery is in the name of whatever....

I do not want to influence anyone else either as these types of revelations are life changing, but I want to pose a question here that is still troubling me. 

If we are all here to learn and grow and there is no single higher being that is waiting to judge us as there is no true good or evil, only our individual interpretations of such, what does that say about Hitler? I know a lot of people kept their sanity by believing he was being punished in unimaginable ways. And he may well be, but if this punishment is all subjective, does he actually deserve to experience no discomfort at all in the next reality if he instantly understands this and is therefore able to progress "higher" quickly?

[Lionheart]

If we are all here to learn and grow and there is no single higher being that is waiting to judge us as there is no true good or evil, only our individual interpretations of such, what does that say about Hitler? I know a lot of people kept their sanity by believing he was being punished in unimaginable ways. And he may well be, but if this punishment is all subjective, does he actually deserve to experience no discomfort at all in the next reality if he instantly understands this and is therefore able to progress "higher" quickly?

We are all here to experience, whether it be the good, bad or the ugly.

Hitler's reign created changes to our Reality that have profound influences on who we are today as Humans. Like I said the good, bad and ugly they are all experiences.

When a child is seeking attention. They can either do something good or bad to achieve their goal.  Because in the end, they both lead to attention.

[Astralzombie]

We are all here to experience, whether it be the good, bad or the ugly.

Hitler's reign created changes to our Reality that have profound influences on who we are today as Humans. Like I said the good, bad and ugly they are all experiences.

When a child is seeking attention. They can either do something good or bad to achieve their goal.  Because in the end, they both lead to attention.

Hitler was just my example of extreme "evil". He was a man that deprived himself of nothing that he wanted. Nothing was a deterrent to him.  Compared him to a person who sacrifices time and time again so that others may take comfort and peace. Now I understand that each has a certain energy that will determine their place in the NPR, as I read from someone here that "like attracts like" (i like that by the way). But once there, it is up to them to progress or not. So if a Hitler, for example, progresses fast and does not spend much time in the lower energy realms, is that just the way it is and the way it should be? Or is it possible that we have all spent lives being both the good and bad?

I had a very particular jarring NPR experience just the other night and now I think I'm ready to compare it to some others. Now I am not looking for an excuse to go physco or anything but I know I'm probably letting my old beliefs hold me back from growing. For example just two days ago I would have said spiritually growing but now I'm not sure that is even close to what I would say now.

I'm sure some of you can relate and if so, I could use some direction. Thanks again to everyone.