Best meditation method?

[Ricochet]

I'm just continuing my thinking from the end of the feedback loop thread, thought I'd make a new one....

There seems to be as many meditation practices as there are people. Does anyone have any thoughts on the best practice to aid lucid dreaming/AP? Mindfulness, transcendental or other? What is your method? How long? How often? What are the problems to watch out for?

I found this today:  5 signs you went deep into meditation  http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-20097/5-signs-you-went-deep-into-meditation.html

Part of it says:

1. You forgot that you were meditating.
If you were thinking about the fact that you were meditating the entire time that you were meditating, then you weren't really that deep in your meditation. A deep meditation implies a slight to heavy loss of awareness, which includes losing awareness of the fact that you're meditating.

Admittedly, this is where the practice gets tricky. Anyone who's tried to make themselves go to sleep at night by thinking about how they can't sleep usually ended up keeping themselves awake for longer. Instead, sleep experts recommend keeping your mind preoccupied on other things, like picturing sheep, counting backwards, or reading. And this is why, historically, some meditation styles have employed the use of a mantra, yantra or breath awareness, to gently lure the mind away from surface awareness, so you forget about the fact that you're meditating at all.

2. You got lost in thought.
Going deep means your mind is de-exciting from surface awareness to subtle awareness, and ultimately to no awareness. As your mind travels through the various degrees of awareness, you'll be thinking various thoughts, many of which won't have anything to do with meditation. If you resist your thoughts, you may re-excite your mind. As you embrace the thoughts, your mind will continue to de-excite and ultimately you may lose all awareness, which is symptomatic of the deepest states of meditation.

Just wondering about this. I've been meditating for about 2 months. 20 minutes in the morning and I got the Zen12 meditation system which I use late in the afternoon before I head home from work. I find it quite easy to slip into a kind of semi-hypnagogic state where I am still breathing as I want, but I lose awareness and lose focus on breathing and my mind just kind of drifts around. Not quite asleep, still sitting straight - just zoned out in la-la land. Then I snap back for a bit and try and focus but pretty soon I'm out yonder again. There are still thoughts but its pretty random and fuzzy. I've only nodded off one time though. Is this what they are talking about or am I just dozing and feeling good about it??

[Bluefirephoenix]

THe "signs of" are so crazy popular I devised two sets of them and put them in my book. LOL I would describe my method as opening and letting go. It's very specific and designed to help with psychic development. I learned it from Edward Kelley who was my teacher for a couple years. ( lived in the 16th century)

Take lists with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to stuff like meditation. Things are not that cut and dry

[Ricochet]

I guess what I'm asking is: is alert awareness or a trancelike state preferable? It seems to me that the brainwave entrainment wants to get you in the lower wave states of "letting go" and losing awareness. I'm starting to question if thats what I want. From what I'm reading about mindfulness meditation, it seems to be more about keeping your focus and awareness. Just wondering if one is more helpful than the other. I've heard that hard core meditators can keep awareness down to delta states of deep sleep, so where does that fit in?

[Astralsuzy]

It is best to be alert.   Your body and mind is relaxed and being alert is a  great way to ap.   You know what you want to do and you are not falling asleep.   

[Ricochet]

It is best to be alert.   Your body and mind is relaxed and being alert is a  great way to ap.   You know what you want to do and you are not falling asleep.   

OK, that makes sense. Is it an idea then to do the brainwave entrainment to get the deeper state but use an external focus like a candle to maintain awareness? I'm asking cause I'm new at all this but am already seeing there are many ways to go, but not all are productive to what I want. Argh.

[Astralsuzy]

Sounds great, try it and see how it goes.   I do not use anything anymore to relax because it puts me to sleep.    It can work for you.   

[superman]

All meditations are the same: its about awareness and focus. So you choose what is easier for you.

TM = mantra meditation (focus and awareness of mantra)
Mindfulness of the breathe (focus and awareness of the breathe)

You can focus on a mental image, mantra, breathe, part of the body, physical object... So choose the one you like most.
They will all have an efect on your focus and awareness... so they are all usefull for AP

[ThaomasOfGrey]

Ricochet, I am no expert in meditation, but I have been trying to develop a technique for easy and efficient astral projection for some time. Perhaps a description of what I have learned works for me will interest you.

The game is about getting as deep as possible as fast as possible. The only times I have had success is when I am deep enough to not be aware of anything, be it physical stimulus or controlled conscious thought. For now it seems to be necessary to replicate these conditions. I learned that it is necessary to physically disconnect yourself in the meditation process from book another user posted here, written by a Yogi. The theory presented in the book is a little mystical but I parsed some practical information that seems to stand up.

The heart rate governs your responsiveness to stimulation. Lowering your heart rate will induce a deep recession in consciousness. You control your heart rate with breathing. You want to achieve a state where you are unaware of your breath. I start by breathing from the diaphragm. You nearly want to be breathing just by moving your stomach slightly; you are more aware of that movement than your actual lungs.

Once that state is achieved you recede to the next level, only being aware of the breath going in and out of your mouth/nose. Dry mouth can be an issue; remedy any distraction immediately with as little fuss as possible. When you get deep enough you may start to experience sudden and dramatic bursts of recession that interrupt your breathing. If you get stuck at this stage like I do, try exhaling slowly and focus away. If you get really stuck on breathing near the borderline you can just refuse to make your lungs breathe manually until the autonomous system takes over, this is kind of like a hard reset.

[madmagus]

My personal perspective is that two types of meditation are useful for lucid dreaming/OBE.  Single-point meditation is what you need to develop to pierce the veil between physical awareness and NPR; it teaches you to silence all the noise from the physical awareness state, to reduce the signal-to-noise ratio as RVers like to call it.  Mindfulness meditation teaches you what is useful once you have achieved the NPR mental state; it will open your awareness to your surroundings in a mindful way to keep you focused and connected to the NPR condition and allow for longer LDs/OBEs.

[Ricochet]

Didn't see these last 2 til now...thanks!

The only times I have had success is when I am deep enough to not be aware of anything, be it physical stimulus or controlled conscious thought. For now it seems to be necessary to replicate these conditions. I learned that it is necessary to physically disconnect yourself in the meditation process from book another user posted here, written by a Yogi.

I'm guessing you mean a trance-like state, correct? Or something different?

My personal perspective is that two types of meditation are useful for lucid dreaming/OBE.  Single-point meditation is what you need to develop to pierce the veil between physical awareness and NPR; it teaches you to silence all the noise from the physical awareness state, to reduce the signal-to-noise ratio as RVers like to call it.  Mindfulness meditation teaches you what is useful once you have achieved the NPR mental state; it will open your awareness to your surroundings in a mindful way to keep you focused and connected to the NPR condition and allow for longer LDs/OBEs.

Can you give an example of single-point vs mindfulness? I'm not sure I understand the difference. I Googled it but only got more confused.  Mindfulness meditation is usually given as focusing on/being aware of something, usually the breath.  They say it can be internal or external, like a candle.  One website says "Single-pointed concentration [samadhi] is a meditative power that is useful in either of these two types of meditation. However, in order to develop samadhi itself we must cultivate principally concentration meditation. In terms of practice, this means that we must choose an object of concentration and then meditate single-pointedly on it every day until the power of samadhi is attained." http://www.lamayeshe.com/article/developing-single-pointed-concentration But that sounds like mindfulness to me. Argghhh. I'm learning there are a billion different ways to meditate and I always thought it was just sitting in the lotus and chanting "Om"   

[madmagus]

I feel your frustration.  There are so many perspectives on meditation, so many variations on a theme, so to speak, that it can confuse you.  I'll try not to throw terminology around and still describe what I mean.  Single point meditation is, in its essence, a concentration exercise.  You learn to focus your attention on a single object (let's stick with object for this discussion to simplify).  It doesn't much matter what you choose.  I've done everything from candle flames to visualized chalices.  The idea is to localize your focus on the object to the exclusion of everything else.  What this is doing for your lucid dreaming/OBE practice is teaching you how to phase your focus from the physical to the non-physical by allowing your physical input (sight, sound, touch) to diminish to the point of disconnection.  You are completely focused on you target object.  By doing this, you allow your waking consciousness to refocus into NPR, allowing it to take on the 3D reality normally reserved for the waking state.

Mindfulness meditation has various elements as well, but for this purpose (LD/OBE) your focus should be on maintaining a broader sense of awareness of your environment.  You don't have to take every possible input into account.  Be conscious of the steps you take, the breaths you draw in, the feel of your feet striking the ground if you are doing a walking version, the sounds around you, the feel and smell of the air.  You essentially become hyper-observant and acknowledge your place in it all.  You become more entrenched in the moment, in the now as they say.  Over time, this condition translates into a more naturally aware state while LDing or OBEing.  It allows you to become more naturally aware while dreaming so you can become lucid in the first place. 

As I said, both types have purposes that are useful.  Most people simply won't take the time to do the underlying practice to become prepared internally to more naturally have LDs and OBEs.  They want an easy, quick fix that some magical technique will supposedly give them.  It's like wanting to paint a wall but not wanting to take the time to scrape and properly finish it first so the paint will stay on appropriately.  Have patience and do the ground work.  The rest will come.  Given time.  As so many people on this site have stated, this should be a lifestyle decision not a weekend outing.

[Ricochet]

Thanks, madmagus. Thats very clear. Have you ever tried brainwave entrainment meditation? I'm still trying to decide if it is a good idea. It tends to put me in a trancelike or semi-hypnogaugic state unless I fight to stay aware.

[madmagus]

You're welcome.  I have tried some material that I found on Utube, but I have not found anything that works better than regular meditation for me.  I'm not saying that it doesn't work.  It's just not my thing.  All you can do is give it a try.  It could work wonderfully for you.  Have fun with it all.

[EscapeVelocity]

Ricochet,

If the brainwave entrainment is getting you to the semi-hypnagogic state then I think this is the condition you should work with; that is, learning the balance between maintaining just enough awareness to keep yourself engaged and also allowing the semi-hypnagogic state to evolve into a full-hypnagogic state where you will find a steady progression of images, moving from still pictures to video-like clips, black & white to full technicolor, where the visual environment becomes so pre-dominant that you realize that you can transition into the environment, literally "stepping into" the scene.

And that is Phasing. Or AP, if you prefer...the semantics and details can be discussed later, but this hypnagogic state is what you want to relax and allow to develop.

To do this, you will likely have to make several attempts and see a gradual progression as you make it a little further each time. It involves finding the balance of removing emotion and mental analysis from the equation for the moment, not over-thinking it; but maintaining enough mental presence to keep up with the sequence as it evolves without interrupting the process; what is commonly called being in "observer mode".

In the Phasing method, you are not working towards an OBE where you feel yourself float up and out from your physical body; Phasing is a nearly instant non-physical transition, much more of a "mental" kind of transition.

It's just my opinion, but if you recognize getting into any kind of hypnagogic state, then I would recommend pursuing that, if you think you can maintain any stability with your lucidity/awareness during this.

Hope that helps,
EV

[Ricochet]

Great advice, thanks. I have noticed since I've been using the entrainment that I can close my eyes, mainly before sleep, and before long I am "seeing" things. I wouldn't exactly call them pictures or video clips- yet. Kind of like in the minds eye but in front of the eyes if that makes sense. Its new for me anyway.

[EscapeVelocity]

You are welcome Ricochet.

Here are a few links that should give you some ideas that expand on what I mentioned. Keep in mind a couple points: 1) These are all essentially "noticing exercises" and require you to experiment with just what degree of awareness is necessary to allow the experience to develop, without getting in the way of it. 2) It is entirely okay to relax to the point where you may lose full awareness for a short period, trusting that you will "re-awaken" within the proper mental state. We all want a fully conscious transition but the truth is, the first several times, it's okay if we "click out" for a few minutes...

Finally, these methods all point to the fact that you should "go with the flow" and relax and allow whatever happens...to happen. Just trust in the process. It happens in different ways for different people and it definitely changes for each of us over time, kind of like "circuit-training" for consciousness... If you get floating sensations, then let yourself float up...if it is swaying sensations, let that happen...if your body wants to spin, then spin...if the visuals stabilize to a point that it occurs to you to "step into" the scene, then do that...

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/the_astral_blueprint-t38729.0.html
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/xanths_free_60_page_book_"my_astral_projection_truth"-t32983.0.html
http://www.beyond-body.com/vigil_method.html
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/the_frank_kepple_phasing_resource_is_now_available-t25806.0.html

That should get you hip-deep in the quicksand! Enjoy!
EV