There are two realities: the Universal Reality (not within a perspective yet encompassing all of them) and the Relative Reality (within a single perspective) and there is only subjective delusion in between.
Typically spiritual people seek to have a universal reality, and everything they do follows that type of thinking. I think it's stupid, to seek to have a non-perspective perspective. A non-ego ego. Instead I think we should seek to change our ego into an Ego.
If reincarnation where real, a true buddhist would be literally *nothing*. They seek to have no bias, to become a part of the universe the way it is. I was we innately have a bias and to use it. A buddhist seeks to become the ground, I seek to take control of the ground. etc
They talk about happiness. They say in order to achieve happiness you have to go without. I say going without only lowers your standards for happiness.
They seek to find the will by eliminating all clutter in the mind. I seek to expand the will until there is no more room for clutter.
Apparently, you haven't heard of The Middle Way.
It's what Buddha discovered/taught.
Maybe you should look into it.
True story.
Hold the string too tight, and it snaps. Too loose, and you don't get any music, Daniel-san.
Buddha taught that trying is setting yourself up for failure and it is better to not try at all
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 01:08:57
Buddha taught that trying is setting yourself up for failure and it is better to not try at all
Were you there?
I'm not a buddhist and I don't particularly find the buddhist path very captivating. But you just sound like you have a grudge against buddhists.
oooh, no. you know what you sound like, a satanist. they are all about happiness and pleasure. they aren't concerned with much else besides pursuing pleasure. maybe you'd like the Satanic Bible, I thought it was a good read.
Quote from: Razputin on April 11, 2011, 18:48:18
A buddhist seeks to become the ground, I seek to take control of the ground. etc
The only way to control the ground is to become the ground. Controlling the ground without becoming the ground is chasing a dragon, stuffing yourself with pleasure until you want more... and more... and more... until finally it's apparent you lost control.
Quote from: Razputin on April 11, 2011, 18:48:18
They talk about happiness. They say in order to achieve happiness you have to go without. I say going without only lowers your standards for happiness.
Buddhism is about balance... the Buddha downplayed asceticism.
Quote from: Razputin on April 11, 2011, 18:48:18
They seek to find the will by eliminating all clutter in the mind. I seek to expand the will until there is no more room for clutter.
Buddhists don't have will? Haha, every competent person has will. Other than that I don't know what you're trying to say here.
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 01:08:57
Buddha taught that trying is setting yourself up for failure and it is better to not try at all
I guess that's why there are so many buddhists *trying* to reach enlightenment, *trying* to be free of a lack of satisfaction (or suffering) and *trying* to make the most of this physical life.
Maybe you should pick up a book about Buddhism... perhaps one that doesn't have pop-up pictures when you turn the pages?
Razputin...
Buddhist philosophy teaches that the true nature of mind is pristine cognition...a radiant emptiness. No concepts are perceived. A newborn is closer to this than an adult could ever be.
Also, many people in the West have the wrong idea about reincarnation...Buddhists will use the analogy that you can light a candle from another while that other one still burns. They believe karma determines the next life which is already happening anyway.
The reason for trying to achieve nirvana is so that one is free from dissonant states such as hatred, greed and delusion. The ego is what binds you to cyclical existence and for as long as you are reborn, you will always suffer. Nirvana is the ultimate solution to this suffering. Wouldn't you rather be in a state of bliss in a reality where everything meets? An archetypal reality which is unborn, uncreated and yet exists in all its glory? Also, whether the Buddha-mind lasts forever or not is debatable. Buddhism also teaches that all states of mind are temporary.
In the state of nirvana, you simply don't have to control anything! You are free! Liberation means not worrying about what will become of you. Here lies wisdom. You talk about wanting to control but, let me ask you this and answer me with honesty: are you in control of everything that happens in your life? Do you really think you have control in this world?
Buddha, as the story goes, did starve himself but he came to the conclusion that finding balance is the real key. We are all the same! Yes, love others but love yourself equally too! Find the balance! Don't be too altruistic or too egoistic. Of course Buddhists have will and they should have will. The will to live and the will to be happy. The Dalai Lama talks about happiness all the time. Be happy! You are allowed to love the things you do...but know deep inside that you could do without because you are free from desire, free from attachment!
For example...I love my electric guitar! I love it so much...it sounds great! It looks great! But if something happened to it...I wouldn't let that bother me. I can still do without. My mind would still be serene.
I think a lot of people misinterpret this philosophy and don't realise how powerful it really is!
the satanist bible is meh. I read most of it when I was like 16 and I remember thinking he was trying to be too antichristain to get anywhere
but I guess I agree with that path the most. if you have to teach something to make money rather than use it's application, the thing ain't that grea
this isn't as fresh in my mind as it once was
a newborn is closer to enlightenment because he has no false notions about things...but he also doesn't know as much about them and their application as an adult. they say they bind nothing...but that very thing is binding something. and worst of all they bind peace
why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience. how about I learn to get people to love me while loving myself. learn to get what I want out of people yet leaving no bad energy our there to me....because they are oblivious to being used
Thelema. this is the hidden meaning of the book. to have the will of others conform with yours
think about this astally. what if all other will was [whatever your will is] and you would have your will. imagine the power you would have
I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain. what if I ruled them and I was all they thought about. my mind would be a prevalent force I. their brain. I think this is the secret to real possession
all this is about finding the true Ego. the perfect man.
when you become nothing your will conforms with god. there must be serenity in that. but what happens when you have will confirm to yours and become god
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 14:56:40
why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience. how about I learn to get people to love me while loving myself. learn to get what I want out of people yet leaving no bad energy our there to me....because they are oblivious to being used
We call that narcissism. Having lived with a parent with this mentality you'll be exposed sooner or later. Only the weak minded will bother with you at that point.
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 14:56:40think about this astally. what if all other will was [whatever your will is] and you would have your will. imagine the power you would have
We call that a dream of the "pipe" variety.
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 14:56:40I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain. what if I ruled them and I was all they thought about. my mind would be a prevalent force I. their brain. I think this is the secret to real possession
Aaaaaaand we call that brainwashing.
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 14:56:40all this is about finding the true Ego. the perfect man.
when you become nothing your will conforms with god. there must be serenity in that. but what happens when you have will confirm to yours and become god
Ask Hitler... oh wait.
QuoteSummerlander said:
I think a lot of people misinterpret this philosophy and don't realise how powerful it really is!
I think they also think that because asceticism is one of the ways he tried to attain enlightenment that this means it's what he proposed- they are not aware that (as you said) he figured out that this was not the way and discovered the problem wasn't having, the problem was attachment to having.
QuoteRazputin said:
I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain.
The deal goes both ways-if mind is permeable. What if while you're trying to control theirs, they're controlling yours? How would you even know this is happening?
To control someone else you have to be separate from them. If not, you're a borg.
To want to rule, to want to control, to
want, you have to feel you're not enough- you have to be unhappy. Because only from unhappiness the lust for power comes. That's why this philosophy is self-defeating.
This was interesting, but I suspect the theme is exhausted-at least for me.
Toodle Pip.
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 14:56:40
why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience.
it's in our nature to be enthralled with ourselves. why else would we be put in a situation where we could only perceive our experience.
it isn't in my nature to use and abuse people for my magical gain (but i don't fault you for it being in your nature and i don't believe your actions are wrong, just to clarify), but i agree with this statement. it's not narcissism to love oneself more than others. narcissism is a debilitating obsession with one's self. i love myself immensely, i feel psychologically healthier for it. i have confidence and i support every decision i make because i do it for a reason (even if i don't understand that reason at the time).
I'm fairly certain "using and abusing" out of love for oneself is what a narcissist does. I realize the OP is speaking idealistically (which means he probably feels a lack of control, etc.) but this "nature" *is* wrong by most moral standards and wouldn't be tolerated around free thinkers not interested in entertaining arrogance. Just applying the ideal to the real, that's all.
Quote from: Astral316 on April 12, 2011, 17:36:11
We call that narcissism. Having lived with a parent with this mentality you'll be exposed sooner or later. Only the weak minded will bother with you at that point.
We call that a dream of the "pipe" variety.
Aaaaaaand we call that brainwashing.
Ask Hitler... oh wait.
life can be defined as-, and measures by will. your mind is the source of your will. your mind exists because of your brain and in the brain....but not necessarily only yours. like I said before, if someone knows you they literally have some of your mind in their brain. if your mind became a prevalent force in their brain, your mind being the source of your will, it's not too much of a stretch to think that your wi would expand both tangibly (they'd do what you wanted) and astrally
Quote from: Astral316 on April 13, 2011, 07:04:38
I'm fairly certain "using and abusing" out of love for oneself is what a narcissist does. I realize the OP is speaking idealistically (which means he probably feels a lack of control, etc.) but this "nature" *is* wrong by most moral standards and wouldn't be tolerated around free thinkers not interested in entertaining arrogance. Just applying the ideal to the real, that's all.
I'm pretty sure narcissist is one of the many things popular psychology throws out there for people that aren't average. average equating mediocrity. I'm more interested in a transcendental psychology. productivity and logic over political correctness. freethinking over the bovine excrement society has imprinted on you.
(on a side note: I'm thinking of joining the army. I did pretty decent on the asvab so I want to get into what's called psyops. psyops influences the mindset of foreign populations using media. if this type of thing is something an enlisted army soldier can do, what do you think the CIA is doing to us. the world is full of pushers and pullers. and a pullers goal is to convince you to push)
it goes without saying that some of the most powerful people out there are what you'd call narcisists and sociopaths. they became that way subconsciously, through growing up and, to an extent, their genes. I see the productivity in it and I'm trying to become that way consciously. who says we don't create our psychological makeup
I'm willing to change, and continue changing, everything I am to conform with logic
Quote from: Razputin on April 13, 2011, 12:39:43freethinking over the bovine excrement society has imprinted on you.
Materialism, egocentrism, etc. is something society imprinted on me, not Buddhist philosophy. I'm all for attaining happiness in this physical life, but not at the expense of others. Anyway, good luck with that endeavor.
And, 'society' is us- when we get together and decide that others don't get to have the free will of attacking or raping me, for example, that's one of those bovine excrement expectations- 'society' is not some abstract concept that someone dreamed up. It's us, together, coming up with ways to be.
The reason that Gautama Siddharta came up with his ideas is because he wasn't finding his life to be satisfactory, and those ideas or precepts worked for him.
You do what you think is right, Razputin. But remember: there was an ocean once. Every water molecule was connected. It was an ocean, it was one. Every ripple, every wave meant interaction with itself. Then the temperature changed, things slowed down, and the ocean froze. A massive something shattered the ocean into a myriad individual pieces of ice. Each with their own shape, property and identity. The ocean in its new shattered form, with the shards of ice, created the illusion of individually. It seemed that the WHOLE ocean was no more, but it was still there for nothing had truly vanished.
You may say that you only experience what you experience, but just remember that others experience too...just as you do...albeit differently...but like you nonetheless because they are alive and human like you. What do you have in common with them? Consciousness. And in consciousness the concept of empathy was born.
Just like every shard of ice is made of water.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 13, 2011, 17:20:49
You do what you think is right, Razputin. But remember: there was an ocean once. Every water molecule was connected. It was an ocean, it was one. Every ripple, every wave meant interaction with itself. Then the temperature changed, things slowed down, and the ocean froze. A massive something shattered the ocean into a myriad individual pieces of ice. Each with their own shape, property and identity. The ocean in its new shattered form, with the shards of ice, created the illusion of individually. It seemed that the WHOLE ocean was no more, but it was still there for nothing had truly vanished.
Great analogy. It's a sad thing when a rain drop thinks it can overtake an ocean.
Exactly what I was thinking...and I couldn't help but think that.
Quote from: Razputin on April 12, 2011, 14:56:40
this isn't as fresh in my mind as it once was
a newborn is closer to enlightenment because he has no false notions about things...but he also doesn't know as much about them and their application as an adult. they say they bind nothing...but that very thing is binding something. and worst of all they bind peace
why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience. how about I learn to get people to love me while loving myself. learn to get what I want out of people yet leaving no bad energy our there to me....because they are oblivious to being used
Thelema. this is the hidden meaning of the book. to have the will of others conform with yours
think about this astally. what if all other will was [whatever your will is] and you would have your will. imagine the power you would have
I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain. what if I ruled them and I was all they thought about. my mind would be a prevalent force I. their brain. I think this is the secret to real possession
all this is about finding the true Ego. the perfect man.
when you become nothing your will conforms with god. there must be serenity in that. but what happens when you have will confirm to yours and become god
I find the well-being of others conducive to my happiness, although clearly you don't. Your philosophy takes a coldness of soul and a narrowing of ones humanity.
Your mindset is the same as the Ayn Rands and her life was in shambles. Probably because of Objectivism's impotence as a life creed.
I suspect you are young. Perhaps when you grow older you will become more "other-interested" and realize selfishness is not a virtue. If not, let me tell you, the glaze settling over the eyes of your victim isn't your possession of them, it's the expression of boredom. So in my interest of avoiding boredom, I hope I never meet you and your stunted philosophy.
all the hippy dippy new agers have forced the notion of "love and light" on us. but you just said it snake, it makes YOU happy when others are happy. caring about the wellbeing of others is just as selfish as what razputin believes. you're no better.
Any action one takes can be broken down into an action of self-interest or "selfishness", therefore it's not really the issue. We're talking about when one's happiness acts as a barrier to another's.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 13, 2011, 17:20:49
You do what you think is right, Razputin. But remember: there was an ocean once. Every water molecule was connected. It was an ocean, it was one. Every ripple, every wave meant interaction with itself. Then the temperature changed, things slowed down, and the ocean froze. A massive something shattered the ocean into a myriad individual pieces of ice. Each with their own shape, property and identity. The ocean in its new shattered form, with the shards of ice, created the illusion of individually. It seemed that the WHOLE ocean was no more, but it was still there for nothing had truly vanished.
You may say that you only experience what you experience, but just remember that others experience too...just as you do...albeit differently...but like you nonetheless because they are alive and human like you. What do you have in common with them? Consciousness. And in consciousness the concept of empathy was born.
Just like every shard of ice is made of water.
I like where you were going with that...
but weather or not someone feels the same as me is irrelevant. I experience only my experience, the only importance our connectivity plays is how others affect my experience.
the "non-Wills" of Buddhist are strong and I respect it. it's hard to explain how I see Buddhism
all passiveness is waiting to be taken by action. by Will. Buddhists have the strongest form of passiveness. all that non-Will waiting to be uses by Will
all for One and One for One.....making it One for all. that's the best way I can describe it
Quote from: CFTraveler on April 11, 2011, 20:03:00
Apparently, you haven't heard of The Middle Way.
It's what Buddha discovered/taught.
Maybe you should look into it.
You have a good point CFTraveler.
I think a lot of people miss this unfortunately and polar decisions tend to be made ... polar routes in life ... etc. Black & White.
The middle path is awesome in my opinion.
With Love & Gratitude,
--Sean Patrick Simpson
www.AdventuresInManifesting.org
I think by all means if we spiritually thinks that happens difinitely.
QuoteGod has given you one face, and you make yourself
Hamlet?
Quote from: personalreality on April 15, 2011, 14:34:10
all the hippy dippy new agers have forced the notion of "love and light" on us. but you just said it snake, it makes YOU happy when others are happy. caring about the wellbeing of others is just as selfish as what razputin believes. you're no better.
It's not about being better than the next. It's about finding the harmony. It's about having consideration for others just as you would like them to have consideration for you.
"Be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
There is no right or wrong. People do what they think is the best course of action. Some do what they think is the best course of action for themselves only...and it usually ends in pain. Others do what they think is the best course of action for others only...and it usually ends in pain. Others balance it out...and they usually lead happier lives.
Have the will to be happy. Care about yourself. Care about others too (and this may involve giving those altruistic fools advice about taking care of themselves too). Every action has an effect! Don't expect things to go swimmingly well for you all the time. The trick is to get your mind ready for anything. Buddhism is about getting people to detach themselves from possessions...note, I said "detach", not "prohibit". You can still have the will to do things, you can still enjoy your possessions...but just know deep within that if you lost everything it wouldn't be the end of your world.
Do what you think is right. Do what you want. See where it takes you. Hold on to your ego for dear life! But just remember that this ego that you hold on to is not real. It is something you created...it is an illusion. This is why people suffer so much and end up losing control when their egos are bruised.
I really don't understand where this anti-Buddhism talk is coming from... :roll:
The less you look at the world based on your likes and dislikes, the more at peace you will be with yourself... - note that this statement never urges you to get rid of your preferences.
it's easy to find harmony in a null void where nothing can get in the way of it...but I am talking about finding harmony in the scary, imense, cruel, cryptic, and packed place that is the real world
you experience only your experience. that is a self evident fact which leads to the self evident conclusion that, while right and wrong may not be black and white, it's pretty directed. and that direction centers around you. do you know how hard it is to find harmony in (a logical)selfishness? it's like an oxymoron
while primal ("terrestrial" matrix) selfishness usually has bad ends, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about pure selfishness unassuged of context-sensitive matrixes (hedonically the matrixes would be any one vice. you get the idea) this is logical selfishness. this is productive hedonism
I'm hating on Buddhism because, while it has found a reality, it hadn't found the one directly relevant to me. to any one person in general.
you seek to lose ego aka make it that if the universe. a universe effected by will. sentient beings being the biggest source of will.
reality is survival of the (non-context-sensitive) fittest ( aka overall fittest, not just physically). and you are making the fittest your god without giving it any competition
this is why the relative reality sits on top of the universal reality (with subjective delusion in between)
the closer you are to relative reality (resulting in an Ego), the closer you are to ruling the universal/outside reality....and all of the dellusional egos that occupy it
QuoteI'm hating on Buddhism because, while it has found a reality, it hadn't found the one directly relevant to me.
"Don't take what I'm saying, just try to analyse as far as possible and see whether what I'm saying makes sense or not. If it doesn't make sense, discard it. If it does make sense, then pick it up."- Buddha
You don't have to hate on Buddhism. Like any other philosophy, it can resonate with some but not with others. It is interesting to see how, mostly in the West, people have erroneous views on Buddhism.
Buddhists take into account The three Jewels (the Buddha, the dharma (teachings) and the sangha (the community)) in order to dispel or refrain from dissonant and unhelpful states. They acknowledge that life can influence you to focus on three "poisons"...greed/craving/desire...hatred/aversion...delusion/ignorance...
The opposition of these is the Buddhist path. This is their philosophy, their view, their way of life...take it or leave it. It won't make them perfect, of course not because we are all human and bound to err...but the Buddhist way of life is supposed to improve you as a person. In fact Buddhism can be molded and applicable in all walks of life but the principle is the same. The historical Buddha presents himself as an agnostic who lived according to his perspective and what made sense to him and he urged others to do the same, not to follow him but to find their own way. Perhaps you think you have found your own way in abundant egoism at this particular point in time, Razputin, but just remember that what doesn't work for you might work for others. There's no need to hate on Buddhism at all. This philosophy also teaches about "Refuges" that one can take for improvement and healthy perspectives. Please not that refuge here is not implying hiding from something but rather, setting up foundations from which you can grow and become productive.
Here's a passage written by a Japanese Buddhist teacher:
"Taking refuge is the first step on the Buddhist path to inner freedom, but it is not something new. We have been taking refuge all our lives, though mainly in external things, hoping to find security and happiness. Some of us take refuge in money, some in drugs. Some take refuge in food, in mountain-climbing or in sunny beaches. Most of us seek security and satisfaction in a relationship with a man or a woman. Throughout our lives we have drifted from one situation to the next, always in the expectation of final satisfaction. Our successive involvements may sometimes offer temporary relief but, in sober truth, seeking refuge in physical possessions and transient pleasures merely deepens our confusion rather than ending it."-Shunryu Suzuki,
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind,
Weatherhill, 1982, p7
If you find Buddhism practical, then use it, if you don't...then leave it be and good luck.
you're telling me not to hate on Buddhism, I'm telling you why Buddhism isn't logical and presenting an alternative, and you again tell me not to hate on Buddhism
it doesn't matter what 'works for me'. im sure Buddhism would work for me, but what matters is logic. and I'm willing to change myself so that who I am conforms with logic
if it's any consolation, I'm going to be giving Buddhism a real try soon, but just because losing an ego is on my oath to gaining an Ego
logic was spawned from human minds. it is equally flawed. it relies on current knowledge. what seems illogical now may make perfect logical sense in 100 years. logic is useful, but it is not beyond bias.
Quote from: personalreality on April 29, 2011, 10:01:30
logic was spawned from human minds. it is equally flawed. it relies on current knowledge. what seems illogical now may make perfect logical sense in 100 years. logic is useful, but it is not beyond bias.
context-sensitive logic is flawed...but, by following it without real attachment, you could get outbid that matrix into a more pure logic
logic is a direct application of life. the matrixes we put around it, is what corrupts it
Quote from: personalreality on April 29, 2011, 10:01:30
logic is useful, but it is not beyond bias.
Very well said. Just like there is human logic...and quantum logic... 8-)
and that is my point. remove all of your human perceptual bias and then we'll talk.
Hmmm...maybe you shouldn't talk to Razputin then as he refuses to do this. :-D
yea, my last comment was directed to razputin, i should have quoted him.
logic as a quality of critical analysis is fine, practical logic is flawed (goes without saying, but imo).
it's like science as an abstract concept is fine, but practical science is flawed, biased and unfavorably balanced toward the prevailing social context.
Quote from: personalreality on April 30, 2011, 10:56:01
it's like science as an abstract concept is fine, but practical science is flawed, biased and unfavorably balanced toward the prevailing social context.
A lot of reputations at stake, I suppose! :roll:
I'd like to finish here with a quote from a meditation teacher if you lot don't mind because I don't think I'll be posting here no more. You may have realised that I subscribe to a great portion of the Buddhist philosophy but it is not my intention to persuade others to follow it. I also take what resonates with me from LaVeyan Satanism, though I'm more of a Buddhist zealot:
"Try to be mindful and let things take their natural course. Then your mind will become still in any surroundings, like a clear forest pool. All kinds of wonderful, rare animals will come to drink at the pool, and you will clearly see the nature of all things. You will see many strange and wonderful things come and go, but you will be still. This is the happiness of the Buddha."-Ajahn Chah,
A Still Forest Pool, Kornfield and Breitner (eds), Quest Books, 1975
my human bias is what makes me, me. but it's not like most humans embrace this. most take on the politically correct universal logic
considering that I am 1 person, a universal logic is illogical. having a perspective based logic (which would also require one to realize that perspective's place in the universe) is logical
So it's logical to believe in chakkras but illogical to take Buddhist thinking into account?
Quote from: Summerlander on May 09, 2011, 16:54:03
So it's logical to believe in chakkras but illogical to take Buddhist thinking into account?
I've taken it into account. you won't even try mess with your energy. don't even think of it as chakras
and once you actually do it, take a look at the locations of chakras and you tell me if you think theyre real
arguing ideologies and arguing the existence of an experience (because the experience itself proves it's existence) are 2 different things
There's only one thing that I realise. You can achieve many without indulging in chakras and energy work...like inducing OOBEs and Lucid Dreams...you don't really need chakras.
As for Buddhism, I've seen this philosophy being put into practice and it works. In fact I've applied it (didn't even fully embrace it) and it was effective. I found that people started being generous towards me, giving me things for free out of kindness. I brought the good out of people with it...just like the Buddha and other wise men did with their speeches and teachings and in return people would give them food.
It's simple really...if you are helpful and resourceful when you can be you will get the same back from others. You are liked without even asking for it. On the other hand, if you show yourself to be selfish and don't give a toss about others then that's exactly what people will see and they'll lose interest.
Quote from: Razputin on May 09, 2011, 16:36:11
my human bias is what makes me, me. but it's not like most humans embrace this. most take on the politically correct universal logic
considering that I am 1 person, a universal logic is illogical. having a perspective based logic (which would also require one to realize that perspective's place in the universe) is logical
your human bias is what makes your journey unique. but the idea behind modern spiritual practice is to align oneself with universal logic as you call it. more appropriately, to become cosmic consciousness. some say that the evolution of consciousness in humanity has moved beyond tribal consciousness/wisdom (or earth based consciousness) in favor of the individual and that they next step is cosmic consciousness. in fact, that's kind of the whole point of the western mysteries. we are now seen as mediators of the energy between worlds, we are the "as above, so below" that Hermetic text is famous for teaching. we are the cosmos embodied in the microcosm. so, universal logic is not illogical, it's actually the next logical step.