Hello all :-D
Okay, for the past couple weeks I've been reading the compilation of Franks posts and re-reading Monroes books trying to understand the phasing approach to projection. I figured the first step was reaching a solid Focus 10. I can quite easily enter the mind awake body asleep state associated with Focus 10. I say easily now but its been years since I first attempted reaching that state, now compared to then its a cake walk. Focus 12 confuses me. I cant quite figure out what its supposed to be. I keep reading that its associated with various mental imagery, lights and swirling patterns. I get that immediately upon closing my eyes however. The only difference is that at Focus 10 its much more immediate. In Franks model it seems to me that the switch to Focus 12 would be like entering a WILD. Or is the lucid dream quality beyond Focus 12? Thats basically what Im wondering. I've been re-reading astral dynamics as I study Franks model. My current understanding is that once Focus 10 is reached you have 3 options. 1: Use a technique to move awareness beyond your physical/energetic body into the surrounding area to achieve a RTZ projecton. 2: Create a mental landscape or dreamscape and engage it with all senses until you phase into it. 3: Focus on the random mental imagery in a nonchalant way while intending to move beyond it to higher focus levels. What I'm seeking at the moment is entry into the 3D technicolor experience Frank called Focus 2. Im just curious where within the Monroe Focus levels that depth of experience lies. Is it Focus 12 or beyond?
You are correct in that at F10 you can begin a phasing exercise. Keep in mind that Frank used to phase with the 1st Gateway CD which is only F10, but he used that as his launchpad. (You can read through his Gateway pointers here: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/wave_1_and_general_phasing_questions-t15371.0.html it's good to read even if you don't do Gateway).
And I would guess that Franks F2 starts at Monroe's F21, but to be honest, I haven't used Monroe's model in a long time and can't keep track of what numbers relate to what.
Personally, if you're using Frank's model, I would just focus on phasing first and leave the whole F-level thing for later. His phasing tips are much more practical for experience than learning focus levels.
Hi,
Franks F's are a simplified version of Monroe's. F1 is the physical, F2 is. Monroe's F10 to F21, Franks F3 is Monroe's F21 to F27 and F4 he assumes Monroe hasn't entered into. This is based up to 2005 as thats as far as I've read to.
F21 is the 3D blackness or the mystics void. It overlaps the deepest phase and enters the astral at the base. It's the ideal focus to achieve as from here the thoughts become your reality through manifestations.
From this focus level you are open to your desires as to whatever your intent is.
Once achieved youll know it too.
Best of luck.
Quote from: Robin Goodfellow on June 14, 2012, 07:46:26
In Franks model it seems to me that the switch to Focus 12 would be like entering a WILD. Or is the lucid dream quality beyond Focus 12? Thats basically what Im wondering.
No, F 12 is not a WILD. Some skilled people may enter a WILD,
probably from any kind of altered state, but F 12 is not a general
entry to a WILD. F 12 is more an altered state to experience parts of
our "Universe" (also non-physical parts) or to do healing.
In an old radio interview Monroe said that LDs are experienced in F 15,
but I'm not sure at all if that's TMI's current opinion on LDs. You may
also change the Focus Level of an LD, see for example Buhlman, he
has some youtube radio interviews where he talks about upgrading
and LD into an OBE.
I'm not either convinced that Frank's model talked about a "
switch to Focus 12".
I don't think he went along that line. My opinion is that Frank's FoC Model
was flawed and with too little scientific background, but I want to avoid
going too deeply into that mess here and now. Instead you will perhaps
get some ideas from my review1 (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/frank_kepple_astral_projection_truth_newsletter-t32536.0.html) and review2 (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/frank_kepple_frank_posts_pdf_the_frank_pdf-t34289.0.html).
Quote from: Robin Goodfellow on June 14, 2012, 07:46:26I've been re-reading astral dynamics as I study Franks model. My current understanding is that once Focus 10 is reached you have 3 options. 1: Use a technique to move awareness beyond your physical/energetic body into the surrounding area to achieve a RTZ projecton. 2: Create a mental landscape or dreamscape and engage it with all senses until you phase into it. 3: Focus on the random mental imagery in a nonchalant way while intending to move beyond it to higher focus levels. What I'm seeking at the moment is entry into the 3D technicolor experience Frank called Focus 2. Im just curious where within the Monroe Focus levels that depth of experience lies. Is it Focus 12 or beyond?
If you mean AD by R Bruce, I think it has a different approach to
the astral than F Kepple's.
Perhaps you can do a an OBE from F 10 or F 12 if you're skilled at
doing so, but my impression is that it's not that simple. Focus Level
states and RTZ OBEs are not one-to-one. Also, remember that F Kepple
either didn't like the RTZ concept, or kind of rejected it, so I'm not so
sure any
RTZ projection is completely valid in F Kepple's Model.
I think that F 10 is an
entry point to other states of altered awareness,
or perhaps an entry point for inner selfknowledge. I have read very
few statements of skilled projectors who claim that they have been
truely successful in repeating Frank's experiences. And I have to say
that after F Kepple left, I think the majority of experiences are of a
slightly different kind, and more in the line of Monroe/Bruce/Moen/Buhlman.
My impression is also that the various Focus Levels you can reach doesn't
mean that it becomes any easier to do anything else, than being in your
physical body most of the time, but with an altered state of awareness,
being fed with non-physical impressions, sometimes of poor quality.
Most descriptions by people from the Monroe school, who have entered the various
Focus Levels, have either done it with no Kepple phasing involved, and just
picked up non-physical impressions (Moen style) or, in some rare case, people
have had full fledge OBEs, or some may have had RV style experiences too.
Having read a lot of books, I can't exactly say that the claims by F Kepple
on his FoC Model matches anyone's else. Maybe he did try to be creative,
but I think the best source on how to OBE or how to view the Focus Levels
come from other people who have been in more contact with TMI or Monroe,
as the Focus Level concept is very Monroe & TMI specific.
It is in my experience that F12 begins when you stop relaying on your eyes for sensory input. One could say you 'shut them down.' It is a subtle change if you don't know what you are looking for, but once you know what it looks like, it is very obvious when you reach it.
If I had to be simple about it, I would call it 'vastness.' It feels like all of a sudden you are standing on the top of a very tall mountain and the dead of night with no moon in the sky, and all around you is expansive, but nothing is filling it. I never liked the term 3D Blackness, because so many stages of the process could be called that. This one in particular.
In my experience, that biggest thing that goes largely unsaid about this transition, is you cannot move your eyes. If you move your eyes for any reason, they'll 'turn back on' and you pop yourself out to F10. IMO, this is why Frank locked his eyeballs up above. Many other icons mention similar methods but never fully explain why. I suspect this F10-F12 transition is the case.
As for the technicolor experience. I would just rub your eyes if you really want that. I have never come across anything more impressive in the transition stages to projection.
Cheers,
Contenteo
Quote from: Contenteo on June 14, 2012, 16:25:03
In my experience, that biggest thing that goes largely unsaid about this transition, is you cannot move your eyes. If you move your eyes for any reason, they'll 'turn back on' and you pop yourself out to F10. IMO, this is why Frank locked his eyeballs up above. Many other icons mention similar methods but never fully explain why. I suspect this F10-F12 transition is the case.
Early on I used to lock my eyeballs up above as well, then for some reason down the line it changed to my entire focus being locked to about a foot above my head. This can come on now with just a simple thought. When you lock begin to lock your focus above your body you will feel the shift almost immediately. You just have to put a lot of practice and determination into getting to this point. :-)
The nice thing about Frank's stuff is you don't need F-level stuff. He has practical advice that leads directly to phasing, and once you're having experiences you can begin to figure out where you are in the scheme of things. The experience and what you get out of it is more important than the label attached to it.
Thanks you all for the replies :-)
I suppose I got the impression from reading Franks posts that phasing was a well honed method of entering a WILD, which is where my interest in phasing mostly lies. I've developed a personalized training regimen over the years of exercises in consciousness exploration and at the moment full blown OBE's aren't on top of my list. At the moment I'm focused on sensory concentration through active imagination techniques, and Franks model seemed conducive to that area of exploration. I am very interested in the MIT's gateway program and think I might give the program a try soon.
As a side note I was reading 'Concentration' by Mouni Sadhu last night and thought the book would probably be of interest to those using phasing techniques. The book is a full course in concentration that teaches step by step how to focus your attention, shut off sensory stimulus, and expand consciousness beyond the physical through willed intent. Interestingly the advanced exercises begin with shutting off the visual and auditory senses as you expand the blackness to a 3D quality. Sadhu also used a 4 levels or reality model which corresponded to Waking, Dreaming, Dreamless Sleep, and a fourth state he simply mentioned was the Source of and interpenetrated the other 3 states.
Hello Robin, this might help you with your focus. I watch it once in a while to practice keeping focus myself and have found it quite useful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxvb9pgkrvI Here is a link to a PDF on Mouni Sadhu's book Concentration. http://www.scribd.com/doc/14046895/Meditation-Mouni-Sadhu-Concentration-A-Guide-to-Mental-Masteryfixed
Good Luck and Safe Travels! :-)
Quote from: Robin Goodfellow on June 15, 2012, 19:12:59
Thanks you all for the replies :-)
I suppose I got the impression from reading Franks posts that phasing was a well honed method of entering a WILD, which is where my interest in phasing mostly lies. I've developed a personalized training regimen over the years of exercises in consciousness exploration and at the moment full blown OBE's aren't on top of my list. At the moment I'm focused on sensory concentration through active imagination techniques, and Franks model seemed conducive to that area of exploration. I am very interested in the MIT's gateway program and think I might give the program a try soon.
Phasing *IS* doing a WILD. They're metaphors describing the same thing.
As you progress, experience and learn more... you'll quickly realize how the many seemingly different terms people use to describe things are actually all just one in the same. People have many different metaphors describing the same experience.
QuoteAs a side note I was reading 'Concentration' by Mouni Sadhu last night and thought the book would probably be of interest to those using phasing techniques. The book is a full course in concentration that teaches step by step how to focus your attention, shut off sensory stimulus, and expand consciousness beyond the physical through willed intent. Interestingly the advanced exercises begin with shutting off the visual and auditory senses as you expand the blackness to a 3D quality. Sadhu also used a 4 levels or reality model which corresponded to Waking, Dreaming, Dreamless Sleep, and a fourth state he simply mentioned was the Source of and interpenetrated the other 3 states.
The bold and underlined portion is all you really ever need to learn in order to project. Consciousness will automatically "expand" after successful attempts of doing those two things for extended periods of time.
I think I've gotten all I needed from the original inquiry now. :-) Am starting to remember why I used to frequent the Pulse back in the day, such diversity here. Ive had enough experience within nonphysical realities to find my way back, and I just don't think the phasing method adds anything to what I already know besides a new label. Ultimately I gotta follow my own drum beat, though I do enjoy relaxing while I appreciate the beat of a different drum once in a while.
Good thoughts to you all :-D
Quote from: Robin Goodfellow on June 16, 2012, 00:11:00
I think I've gotten all I needed from the original inquiry now. :-) Am starting to remember why I used to frequent the Pulse back in the day, such diversity here. Ive had enough experience within nonphysical realities to find my way back, and I just don't think the phasing method adds anything to what I already know besides a new label. Ultimately I gotta follow my own drum beat, though I do enjoy relaxing while I appreciate the beat of a different drum once in a while.
Good thoughts to you all :-D
This is all a very personal and unique journey and I believe you've definitely got the right attitude! :)
Quote from: Xanth on June 15, 2012, 22:50:00
Phasing *IS* doing a WILD. They're metaphors describing the same thing.
Stephen LaBerge is the originator of the concept WILD.
I know that F Kepple made little (some?) distinction between LDs and "projections".
He further didn't like the expression OBE, but where is your source that
Kepple-phasing is the same as WILD?
Is it your own definition?
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 16, 2012, 07:18:52
Stephen LaBerge is the originator of the concept WILD.
I know that F Kepple made little (some?) distinction between LDs and "projections".
He further didn't like the expression OBE, but where is your source that
Kepple-phasing is the same as WILD?
Is it your own definition?
My sources are from my
own personal direct experiences with lucid dreaming and phasing and making my own judgment calls on the results.
To me, a WILD and Phasing are the exact same technique. Why? For one, the techniques used to do them are identical and two, because I've directly experienced the techniques and the end results. I've said it before, but I'll say it again... I'd highly suggest to you, Pauli, if you're going to create opinions for yourself on these subjects that you endevour to base your opinions on the source of your own direct experiences and not what you read in a book. Then you'll "know" instead of having to "believe".
This distinction between different author's terminologies (interpretations) you attempt to hold on so tightly is what holds you back. Learning to identify the different terms people use and tying them all together is, in my opinion, absolutely paramount to beginning to link and understand everyone's unique perspective in a manner that isn't so combative.
Most of what I speak about, I speak from direct experiences. My conclusions are drawn, mostly, from my direct experiences.
One of my goals is to attempt to get people to find the metaphors that others use and compare them to their own in an effort to bridge the terminology gap.
Quote from: Xanth on June 16, 2012, 10:43:56
My sources are from my own personal direct experiences with lucid dreaming
and phasing and making my own judgment calls on the results.
To me, a WILD and Phasing are the exact same technique.
That's a bold statement.
But perhaps you should be a little more clear what's your opinion
and what's more common knowledge, as the original thread starter
asked about F 12 and WILD., which are Monroe resp. LaBerge concepts,
_not_ your specific experiences.
If you continue to make claims/opinions with certainty, I think it would be
decent to point that out.
One reason I think you should do so, is that I'm not longer sure that
you and Kepple at all mean the same thing when you say "phasing".
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 16, 2012, 11:57:24
That's a bold statement.
It's not a bold statement. It's a statement based upon my
direct experiences and the conclusions I've drawn from them.
QuoteBut perhaps you should be a little more clear what's your opinion
and what's more common knowledge, as the original thread starter
asked about F 12 and WILD., which are Monroe resp. LaBerge concepts,
_not_ your specific experiences.
What exactly is "common knowledge" in a subject that has no certainty beyond personal experience?
QuoteOne reason I think you should do so, is that I'm not longer sure that
you and Kepple at all mean the same thing when you say "phasing".
That's your opinion. And I respect that. However, it's an opinion I firmly disagree with though.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again... I'd highly suggest to you, Pauli, if you're going to create opinions for yourself on these subjects that you endevour to base your opinions on the source of your own direct experiences and not what you read in a book. Then you'll "know" instead of having to "believe".
I'm sorry Pauli if I'm stepping all over some of what you believe to be true, but these are the conclusions I've derived from my own *DIRECT EXPERIENCES*.
Your authors who disagree with them can disagree all they want. LOL I have my direct experiences to counter them... what do you have, other than someone else's opinion/belief?
Hi,
Agreeing to disagree comes to mind here initially.
However, if Pauli needs the experience then why not help to make this so?
Something is amiss if you read and understand the initiation of this experience and can't make the full concious transition to its end.
Pauli, how can we help so your opinions on F12 are from personal experience?
This must be annoying to say the least.
Quote from: Szaxx on June 16, 2012, 13:56:00
Hi,
Agreeing to disagree comes to mind here initially.
I completely agree.
QuoteHowever, if Pauli needs the experience then why not help to make this so?
Something is amiss if you read and understand the initiation of this experience and can't make the full conscious transition to its end.
Pauli, how can we help so your opinions on F12 are from personal experience?
This must be annoying to say the least.
Even though I have personally tried to help Pauli for a couple years... and several other individuals on my IRC channel have also tried to personally help him with advice.
I fully support this initiative... as long as Pauli, himself, accepts the assistance. That is why this forum exists.
The first point that one needs to get past is that published authors DO NOT have all the answers; nor are published authors always correct. What you read in books (and even on these forums) is good as a guide only, not a rule. Nothing you read about should ever be taken as truth. If what you read resonates very well with something you've experienced previously then you at least have something "more" to build upon. In the end, that's what you want.
As for Pauli, I know for a fact that he has solid Focus 12 experiences. He's relayed them to me as such. Even though at the time he was ready to throw those experiences aside because they didn't coincide with anything he read from any published authors. What this is, is bringing the intellect into the experience too quickly. You want to begin to have experiences first... MANY of them... THEN slowly, over time, bring the intellect in to analyze the experiences. Not the other way around. You're only going to frustrate yourself otherwise.
I think this discussion here helping Pauli in regards to Focus 12 could really assist Robin Goodfellow in regards to her original post to provide some extra guides for her in regards to Focus 12 and beyond.
Below is a NDE article that shows the most common locations of exit for the soul in an NDE. It is a very good read.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research12.html
Here is a quote from the article:
"A List of the Various Locations on the Physical Body Where the Spirit Body Will Enter the Physical Body Upon Return
Many near-death and out-of-body experiencers have described leaving and entering their physical bodies at a particular location on their physical body. Not everyone leaves and enters their physical body at the same location. These are the main locations on the physical body that I have across in my research:
(1) The Top of the Head
People who left and/or returned to their body through the top of the head: Jayne Smith, Arthur Yensen, Pam Reynolds, MaryJane
(2) The Chest
People who left and/or returned to their body through their chest: Betty Eadie, Margaret Birkin, Michael
(3) The Abdomen
People who left and/or returned to their body through their abdomen: Donna Gotti, Lynn Russell
(4) The Feet
People who left and/or returned to their body through their feet: Susan Blackmore, Jack Foreman, Debbie Malec"
I personally have found that this goes in cycles just like with sales training. I have trained many people sales techniques, mostly on cold sales, door to door and have found that it takes about a month to see if they will be successful or not. The first week is "new person" enthusiasm. The person is so excited to have a new job and learn a new skill, that they can't fail. They are so pumped up when they finally get a chance to sell that their energy alone creates the sale. The next week is enthusiasm + taught techniques, this again will be a successful week for them. The third week for some reason changes them, they lose the enthusiasm and now are running on just taught skills, they adapt a kind of "know it all" personality. We find that this is the make or break week. They will make it to the fourth week if they can realize what went wrong for themselves. If they can see what they have lost along the way.
Personally for me, I started the same way in finding the Wider Reality too. At first I had the enthusiasm, then the enthusiasm + a bit of knowledge. I tried to read everything I could, then got to the stage of "know it all". This is when I too started having problems. I was labeling every experience I had, trying to over think things and questioning everything. I then had a Phase lesson where I was shown some things and told to keep them to myself. I didn't and lost all my ability to Phase for about 2 weeks. I learned to trust what I was hearing after this happened. Those two weeks were great though, they gave me a chance to reflect on my experiences, what my goals for the future were to be. After my two week "timeout", I was told just to sit back and learn, to still experience, but to observe without question. I was told the questions would answer themselves by experience. I was also told to "drop the damn labels", in exactly those words. Ever since then I have been successful whether by Phasing by day or Lucid Dreaming by night, with a "false awakening" popping up once in awhile. Those three things are the extent of my labeling program for now. :-)
Quote from: Xanth on June 16, 2012, 14:45:44I think this discussion here helping Pauli in regards to Focus 12 could really assist Robin Goodfellow in regards to her original post to provide some extra guides for her in regards to Focus 12 and beyond.
Him :-)..I have boy parts :wink:
I'm curious now where this conversation might evolve to so thought I might throw out some observations I've made about past experiences. I do tend to distinguish between OBE and lucid dream.
OBE Experience:
While laying down I was having trouble getting to sleep so thought I might experiment a bit. Went through my progressive relaxation routine until the heaviness overtook me and began using ROPE. Almost immediately I felt pressure in my solar plexus and tingling throughout my body. My chest began to vibrate which caught my focus and as I held my attention on the vibrations they sped up and moved throughout my body. I started to feel myself lifting up out of my body at this point but it wasn't quite that clear cut. I could feel the numbness in my physical body, the non-physical vibrations, and a bodily awareness moving outside my physical body all at the same time. During the whole process I also retained spatial awareness regarding the room I was in as well. It felt very much like moving outward.
LD Experience:
Was feeling restless while trying to fall asleep so thought I would play with my imagination a bit. I settled down into my usual sleeping position and started watching the mental imagery behind my closed eyes. Its always so random I wonder if this stuff is floating around in my mind all day. Most of it is cartoonish scenes mixed with constantly changing patterns of light. Suddenly a very realistic scene popped up. It was at first just a tree but it was so real I could have reached out and touched it. I looked down and could see the ground, looked up into a blue sky. Very realistic so I kept playing. At some point I must have drifted off to sleep because I don't recall a transition but I woke up in my imaginary woods scene. I knew it was a dream and I also knew I was creating it. I cant explain how I knew I was creating it, was just my sense or my feeling. I knew I was within a self created reality.
These are two of my experiences with non physical realities with two very different feelings about them. My level of awareness felt the same in both. The OBE felt like an external projection and the environment around me felt stable, but I had the sense it was also external to me and not a creation of my mind. The LD felt like an internal projection and the environment felt just as stable as the OBE, but I had the definite sense it was being manufactured by my own mind like I was walking around within myself.
They are both projections. It's just your "expectations" and perceptions were different. One you use the "rope" technique, so this stayed more on a physical focus. The other you jumpstarted it with a non physical focus as in an imaginary scene. This one blossomed into a full fledged scene as it usually will. I write all my experiences down and then go back about once a month to my log and try to see if there is a pattern. I look at where I went and which technique I chose to get there, then I create my final assumptions from there.
Quote from: Robin Goodfellow on June 16, 2012, 19:11:34
Him :-)..I have boy parts :wink:
Oopsie! My apologies. :)
As for the rest of your post, I think Lionheart said everything I would have. lol
When one shifts their perception to including lucid dreams as part of the OBE-spectrum, and realize that all the different labels only describe a certain level of awareness, it begins to open up options that one might never have considered before. I came to this conclusion after a run of several projections in the same night using my
"eyes closed/body still" (http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2010/09/26/phasing-method-dont-open-your-eyes-when-you-wake/) technique.
QuoteOne reason I think you should do so, is that I'm not longer sure that
you and Kepple at all mean the same thing when you say "phasing".
I agree with this statement. The concept of "phasing" has been so mythologized and re-assimilated by so many people here, with so many personal interpretations, it doesn't really mean the same thing that Frank may have intended.
Phasing is the smooth shifting of your consciousness from one reality to another while remaining aware.
Described by Monroe as falling asleep, yet remaining consciously aware. I fully agree with this sentiment and experience it in that fashion too.
These are the definitions which Robert and Frank mention... and which I fully support.
Is the phasing Frank did any different from what Monroe suggested in his third book from what I say when I say "Phasing"?
From their similar backgrounds and explanations they certainly seem to fit. From my experiences with the techniques and the descriptions of other techniques, it certainly seems to fit.
In the end, everything is a personal and unique experience only usable by anyone else as a guideline only.
The question then becomes... how many personal interpretations have you come across which differ from this?
On the note of Pauli and Xanth:Pauli, if it is sources you are looking for, Xanth is a source. He has scoured and read every post for years of the most prolific subjective collaboration of OBE experiences, to my knowledge, ever compiled,
this site.
Just because someone found a publisher or took time to write a book doesn't make their experiences any more valid or invalid than any one of us. For instance, The F10 article by Major Tom here is Gold, pure fricking genius gold. If I ever tried to source him, people would be looking around for ground control(joke) to which they would find none. Point is, is that his desire to bring his knowledge into the limelight is no proof of his knowledge's accuracy. In this case, we have low light and great accuracy.
The greatest boon to my studies was taking everyone and their experiences as a case study. Take all their experiences, trust, but verify, and then do a mental cross-study on this great conglomeration of sources. It'll do wonders. The goal is to make a verifiable mental map of this stuff anyway, not be able to back things up with sources.
To Robin:Quote
OBE Experience:
While laying down I was having trouble getting to sleep so thought I might experiment a bit. Went through my progressive relaxation routine until the heaviness overtook me and began using ROPE. Almost immediately I felt pressure in my solar plexus and tingling throughout my body. My chest began to vibrate which caught my focus and as I held my attention on the vibrations they sped up and moved throughout my body. I started to feel myself lifting up out of my body at this point but it wasn't quite that clear cut. I could feel the numbness in my physical body, the non-physical vibrations, and a bodily awareness moving outside my physical body all at the same time. During the whole process I also retained spatial awareness regarding the room I was in as well. It felt very much like moving outward.
LD Experience:
Was feeling restless while trying to fall asleep so thought I would play with my imagination a bit. I settled down into my usual sleeping position and started watching the mental imagery behind my closed eyes. Its always so random I wonder if this stuff is floating around in my mind all day. Most of it is cartoonish scenes mixed with constantly changing patterns of light. Suddenly a very realistic scene popped up. It was at first just a tree but it was so real I could have reached out and touched it. I looked down and could see the ground, looked up into a blue sky. Very realistic so I kept playing. At some point I must have drifted off to sleep because I don't recall a transition but I woke up in my imaginary woods scene. I knew it was a dream and I also knew I was creating it. I cant explain how I knew I was creating it, was just my sense or my feeling. I knew I was within a self created reality.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't call either of these projections. My definition of a astral projection is a full phase into F21. Neither of these sound like F21 experiences.
I don't want to rain on the parade, but I want you to build a strong mental model. A projection will be just like a dream, except you will have full control over it. You will be able to interact with the world and jump around. It is extremely, if not overly
vivid. You are doing well. I highly recommend doing many drowsy attempts before ever attempting a WILD. They are cut out for red-flag experts only. EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. It's why some monks must devote their entire life to honing that one skill. It takes a lifetime.
Cheers all,
Contenteo
Quote from: Contenteo on June 17, 2012, 00:43:11
I don't want to rain on the parade, but I want you to build a strong mental model. A projection will be just like a dream, except you will have full control over it. You will be able to interact with the world and jump around. It is extremely, if not overly vivid.
Robert Moss is in an interview here speaking on what he labels Active Dreaming, which is what we are labeling as projection. In his Active Dreaming, you are fully consciously aware you are Dreaming and are entirely in control the whole time. Robert says "Dreaming is not fundamentally about what happens during sleep. It's about waking up". Think about this statement for a minute and you will see he is 100% right.
Most people don't know that they can #1 control their Dreams or even #2 Re script them. They just view them and remember the extreme ones. I am just beginning to read his book Active Dreaming and am thoroughly impressed by what I see. His interview was fantastic as well. Give this a listen if you get the chance, it's well worth it, especially when he starts talking about Collective Dreaming and how it saved some islanders during the Indonesia/Thailand Earthquake/Tsunami.
You can skip to the 38 minute mark to hear only the Robert Moss interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOHi5Zh-fRg
Quote from: Xanth on June 16, 2012, 20:58:55
Described by Monroe as falling asleep, yet remaining consciously aware.
I fully agree with this sentiment and experience it in that fashion too.
These are the definitions which Robert and Frank mention... and which I fully support.
Is the phasing Frank did any different from what Monroe suggested in his third book
from what I say when I say "Phasing"?
In my opinion, those are two different kinds of "phasings".
I can say for may heart that Monroe and Kepple speak about different things.
Monroe and F Kepple "phasing" are described by these two persons in quite
different ways. Kepple often used words which resembled LDs, but maybe not
the typical LD. Kepple also (at least in the start) used the expression "project"
as in (Frank's posts PDF) post 2350 (July 05, 2002):
"That's the time I project always, early morning."(The interested reader could read the related thread, it's about WILD, but not one
time F Kepple uses the abbrev. WILD unless it is something "
wild and whacky".)
Remeber further that F Kepple often entered what he called phasing from an LD,
so perhaps some (many? all?) of his experiences were LDs.
Monroe on the other side often used the expression OBE.
When Monroe talked about phasing, it seemed to be something different, like
when course participants were listening to Hemi-Sync and changing their state
of awareness into F 10, while Skip Atwater was directing them from his booth
or from a tape excercise.
Also, Monroe completely stopped to dream, he no longer had _any_ regular dreams,
and thus didn't have the initial Kepple LD. Instead Monroe could OBE from any restfull
state. Monroe didn't even have to sleep.
In one of his later books, Monroe mentions that it was enough for him to place
himself in a relaxed state and his non-physical body would hover up in the air
above his physical body.
Also, perhaps the most important difference between Monroe and Kepple, one
of them started with RTZ OBEs, while the other usually started from LDs.
Having read both men's descriptions of their definitions, I have to say that
"phasing" in Monroe speak, means something different than in Kepple speak.
Quote from: Contenteo on June 17, 2012, 00:43:11
On the note of Pauli and Xanth:
Pauli, if it is sources you are looking for, Xanth is a source. He has scoured
and read every post for years of the most prolific subjective collaboration
of OBE experiences, to my knowledge, ever compiled, this site.
But that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,
which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.
In an OBE, even for the few seconds before I've lost the OBE into an LD, I can say my
OBEs had completely different feelings to them, than becoming lucid in a dream. Being OBE
was like being awake in real life, just with the difference that I knew there was
something
different going on. My mind was crisp clear and I was myself. My poor lack of any deeper
experiences will not change that fact.
So my conclusion is that Xanth may have had hundreds of LDs, but I think it's highly
unlikely that he has ever had a real OBE, which also is implied
in this thread (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_dreams/lds_are_not_obes-t34172.0.html).
Quote from: Contenteo on June 17, 2012, 00:43:11
To Robin:
Unfortunately, I wouldn't call either of these projections. My definition
of a astral projection is a full phase into F21. Neither of these sound like
F21 experiences.
Contenteo,
you really have to comment on this one as there have become too many mangled
words describing altered states:
LD.
OBE.
Projection into F 21.
My question to you, do you believe there exists such a thing as an RTZ OBE?
If you don't believe in the existence of the RTZ or the existence of OBE,
perhaps you should mention that before talking about "projection"?
There are more to this. For example, do you not consider a projection to F 15
as being a projection?
How do you define projection? Does it feel like an LD or like an OBE and how does
it relate to phasing (you could pick one of Kepple/Monroe)?
QuoteBut that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,
which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.
They may be similar experiences, along a spectrum. Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's, it is a matter of coherence and clarity, partially; that, and I find LD's seem to have a sort of narritive to them, even if I percieve myself to be in control. OBE, while some I have had were narritive-driven, are a bit more existential, in that what happens seems to be up to where your mind wants to take things.
Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know... like I said, I tend to think they occur on a sort of overlapping spectrum, where the variable is self-awareness and clarity.
Hi,
An example from Frank,
Title: 1901 Astral Project...
Document: null (p.374)
Highlighted text
......................................
1901 Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / WILD vs. Phasing on: December 11, 2002, 18:03:46 Lucid dreaming is Monroe's Focus 22 state. There is the Astral bridge zone at Focus 21 and if you cross that bridge you enter into the first of the realms where thought equals direct action. In other words, as you think so it becomes all around you. The only difference between uncontrolled dreaming and lucid dreaming is your degree of conscious control, which also affects your memory of the experience. So where you say, "It would seem to me that Lucid Dreaming, and dreaming in general, is a phasing of the consciousness into a different "focus" level" you are quite correct. And basically that Focus level is, as I say, Focus 22. So dreaming in general is mind at the F22 state with next to no conscious control. Lucid dreaming is mind at the F22 state with a good measure of conscious control.
..................................
Its apparent that theres only F22 involved in a WILD yet from phasing to F21 the entire multiverse is at your call. This is fact from experiences to many to count. Generally the phase method gives a clarity that exceeds the WILD technique and this is stated many times by many authors and projectors alike.
Although Franks view is changing from 2002 to 2005 (where Im up to) he's seeing that its all internal processes making the OBE mnemonic somewhat akin to the sun revolving around planet earth.
Im thinking along the same lines as some of my experiences leave Franks behind like a caveman. Research on this is proving futile so my enigma continues. I'll read more on this subject from other authors over time and may change my viewpoint. Frank has a very good knowledge as others and reading ALL his posts I have found nothing thats total bs. The only thing I would question is these reality fluctuations in the RTZ, this can be prevented but not in this topic.
Interesting debate...
----------------------------------------
Quote from: Szaxx on June 17, 2012, 08:43:14
Hi,
An example from Frank...
Szaxx, is that an attempt to make history forgery, because it's
very difficulty to know where Frank's post ends and you opinions
start?
Could you please put better quote marks around whoever you quote,
because I first thought all the text was from Frank until I opened up
my own copy of the Frank's posts PDF.
I still claim - Frank never used the expression "WILD" in any of his posts
or Newsletters, so claiming that WILD is the same as "Frank phasing" is,
in my opinion, at least very flawed, but probably invalid.
Besides, the Frank quote you gave, points to one more problematic matter,
Frank believed LD is mind at Focus 22, while Monroe talks about Focus 15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FhfHoqiPw&feature=related
Interestingly enough Monroe says that LDs are equivalent to F 15.
Listen to the interview around 1:00 - 1:35, when he answers the
questions about using LD as springboard to OBE. Not much talk
about "phasing" there.
The big difference on the matter of F 22 vs F 15, in regards of LDs, is that Monroe invented
the Focus concept, measured brain wave states with scientific equipment, using MDs & Ph D
scientists to validate those Focus Levels, while Frank, in my opinion, did no such
research.
And others of you, please stop shoving up my face that I lack OBE experience,
to invalidate my quotes on what Monroe/Buhlman/Bruce have said.
Pauli,
I am in agreement with your definition of OBE's versus LD's. I wish others would just try to experience a real OBE, so they would know there is a difference. They have to realize there needs to be an actual soul exit through one of the locations of the body. Without this exit separation, they are not having a real OBE.
Keep on posting Pauli. I continue to gain information from them.
Hi,
Those dotted lines start and finish the text.
Its the first time I've transferred info this way using my phone. At least it worked.
Its confusing working out where to fit everything.
Up to F21 you are not OOB. At this point the doorway opens to the astral, RTZ and many other 'realms'.
Im still learning other peoples focus levels etc and so far the above seems to tie in with experience.
I've been alone up to March 2011 and joined this site for info. Some ties up 100% while other viewpoints do not totally. What works one day is useless the next and over time things change too. Its really subjective and this itself causes confusion hence the quote based on the earth being the center of the universe.
The more we learn the less we know cannot be stressed enough and based on experience this makes objectives subjective as the basics are a personal thing and we all are different within our mindset.
We learn together and indifferences will erupt at times. Agree to disagree until the learning is studied more. Viewpoints are so valid or we end up in the same hole. Ptolemy Copernicus et al had problems in this.
Its still interesting, moreso...
Quote from: Stillwater on June 17, 2012, 08:39:09
Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's . . .
Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know...
Stillwater,
you write "
the same thing"?
Do you really consider LDs and OBEs being the _same_ thing?
Or do you mean "
similar" thing?
Because I have found quotes from all the big writers; Monroe, Buhlman, Peterson etc,
where they talk about LDs and OBEs being "similar or different", but not
the same.
Even dream researcher Ph D LaBerge, who rejects (*) the existence of an OBE outside the
body, talks about LDs being "
different" from OBEs, yet LaBerge considers OBEs being
"mind-only" experiences, and _not_ real in even the most broad sense.
(*) Well, LaBerge doesn't completely reject the OBE-realness, he merely states that
there is a lack of well based scientific evidence that any OBE really exists outside
the brain/mind, than anything else than a dream illusion.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 17, 2012, 07:34:25
But that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,
which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.
Fair enough. I speak from personal experience though.
However, you're really limiting your options when you decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater like this.
QuoteIn an OBE, even for the few seconds before I've lost the OBE into an LD, I can say my
OBEs had completely different feelings to them, than becoming lucid in a dream. Being OBE
was like being awake in real life, just with the difference that I knew there was something
different going on. My mind was crisp clear and I was myself. My poor lack of any deeper
experiences will not change that fact.
Of course there is a "different feeling" to them. That different feeling is based around how aware you are. I've proven this to myself on countless occasions as I've taken a lucid dream (lucid awareness experience) and increased my awareness
using the technique I do (http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2010/09/01/how-i-convert-a-lucid-dream-into-an-astral-projection/) so I have a waking awareness (ie: as I feel right now) and have experienced the range of "different feelings" in a single non-physical experience by doing this. I've directly experienced each level within the same experience. I've done enough tests for this to be a personal truth.
As I've pointed out before, your awareness can also differ just as greatly while in this physical reality.
Your awareness when you first wake up in the morning after opening your eyes compared to later in the day when you're fully awake. Both have completely different feelings to them, but most people don't pay any attention to them because, well, they fully believe they're awake in this physical reality. Nobody looks at the spectrum of awareness "here" and compares it to "there".
Quote from: Stillwater on June 17, 2012, 08:39:09
They may be similar experiences, along a spectrum. Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's, it is a matter of coherence and clarity, partially; that, and I find LD's seem to have a sort of narritive to them, even if I percieve myself to be in control. OBE, while some I have had were narritive-driven, are a bit more existential, in that what happens seems to be up to where your mind wants to take things.
And they do have a "sort of narrative" to them. That's because you're not fully consciously aware of what's going on. You only realize that you're in a reality which isn't this physical reality. So the narrative of the original dream can still have a lot of influence over what happens.
QuoteStillwater,
you write "the same thing"?
Do you really consider LDs and OBEs being the _same_ thing?
Or do you mean "similar" thing?
That statement I made refers back to the context of the post- the general thesis of the post is that there are similarities between them, but I believe they are different points along a spectrum of consciousness; the statement that "perhaps they are the same thing" is my way of admiting that my knowledge obviously has limitations, and the polar opposite of my thesis may still be true.
Hi gang,
Maybe I can shed some light on the topic.
First, it is important to realize that it all starts with experience. Labels have no value outside of it except when they clarify the experience.
With regards to focus 12, to understand its usefulness and inadequacy at times as a label, a little historical context:
You can look it up in various places or verify elsewhere if you want to provide a more complete picture. Or correct me where I'm wrong.
But, when Monroe started out in his laboratory together with the explorers like Campbell, during the early development of the Gateway Program, they knew that these various states were associated with decreased levels of sensory input, or facilitated by them. The body appeared to be asleep, or slightly out of phase of the physical, while the mind was awake, which is what the physiological date showed when measuring the subjects. They called the state focus 10 (Mind awake/Body Asleep).
At the same, another quantifier quickly appeared to have come in, where focus 10 not only referred to body asleep, but already applied when sensory input was slightly reduced. This is probably where some of the confusion already happened, where the body did not have to completely asleep to consider yourself to be in focus 10.
Perhaps this was because some participants reported experiences, like different imagery, but still found themselves connected to the physical body, which was not entirely asleep. Either way, the definitions of focus 10 did not seem as strict anymore as before.
To resolve some of that confusion, I much later made a distinction between a light and deeper focus 10 in my focus 10 paper. Although it was not ideal, since the term "body asleep" itself did not fully apply anymore, at least not in a light focus 10.
But back to the earlier history of Monroe. The concept of focus 12 was introduced, perhaps in an attempt to resolve the same confusion.
By this time, it seems that the idea of a lighter focus 10, where perhaps the body might not be entirely asleep had already creeped in, and focus 12 was often referred to a state where the body was more completely asleep than in a focus 10.
In other words, what was originally a strict focus 10 where the body was completely asleep, now became focus 12. It was also for the same reason that it was believed that the OBE either occured in focus 10, focus 12, or perhaps somewhere in between. The gateway tapes, if they have not changed since I have seen them, reflect that with out of body exercises both for focus 10 and 12.
To yet further confuse the issue, not every Gateway participants experienced the typical OBE as described by Monroe where he literally left the body.
Rather, they experienced all manner of imagery, and scenery, with varying degrees of immersion and presence. On some occasions these sound like remote viewing type of experiences, occuring in a partial state of sensory reduction (like a pre-body asleep state), and other times, they may go further similar to an OBE during which you actually find yourself in an entirely different location than the physical body (like a full body asleep state).
The latter situation is the most interesting, since for all practical intents and purposes, these are OBEs, which are defined as an experience where you find yourself at a location than your physical body (even though there is no literal seperation).
Then later on, in the 90s, LaBerge comes along with the term WILD, which refers to anything wake induced, after which you start to dream lucidly. The classic OBE fell within in the scope of that label, as did the situation where you for example find yourself in a different location without classic feelings of seperation.
The idea became hugely popular on the internet, despite the fact that it has been shown again and again there is no REM during an OBE with any adept projector, but let me stay on track here.
The gateway program developed further, as did Monroe, and new focus levels come into play. There's focus 15, which monroe describes as no time, and noone really has a clue to what it means.
More interesting was the idea of focus 21, which was the edge of time space according to Monroe. He suggested that you could no longer stay comfortably stay in contact with the physical body in focus 21.
So yet again, here we appear to have the 2nd or 3rd time where the idea of "mind awake/body asleep" is being stretched, to not only extent to focus 12, but now to focus 21 where the mind is fully being disconnected from sensory input.
The problem with all this is that while what the label 21 refers to seems clear, it puts the concepts of focus 10 and focus 12 in disarray, in the same way that the concept of focus 12, put the concept of focus 10 in disarray at the time.
The reality of it is that the transition into out of body state involves the body falling asleep, or otherwise disconnecting the mind entirely from sensory input. You can say it happens in focus 10, according to a strict defination of focus 10; you can say it happens in focus 12, according to the idea that only then the body is entirely asleep; or you can say it happens in focus 21, according to the idea that only then you are completely disconnected from the physical body. Take your pick.
What is far more interesting are the different pathways through which the out of body state can be established. It can occur through a literal sense of seperation, or by simply becoming part of some imagery.
These are the main two different pathways towards the out of body state, where during one you maintain body awareness in the course of the transition process, whereas during the other you do not. This is the fundamental difference in my opinion, which I elaborate on in my book, and resolves all of this confusion.
I call them asomatic and parasomatic transitions, which are accurate descriptors of the experience, rather than metaphors, labels or interpretations.
But with regards to the terminology used here, in terms of the focus levels, things can get a little bit confusing, unless you realize it is just about reduced sensory input, and "phasing" out of the physical. Noone is really or right or wrong, it's just that the labels have evolved and changed over the years.
Regarding Frank, since I was around at the time, he seemed to naturally take a more lucid dreaming, or WILD approach, in the manner that he induced his experiences.
He did not experience the classic seperation initially, although he later on learned how to do it.
Mind you, the label WILD can include the classic seperation, which is wake-induced as well, but Frank intially said he sort of just found himself projected or catupulted into an "astral environment", which is the case for most lucid dreamers as well who practice WILDS.
After a while, becoming more aware of the work Monroe and Bruce Moen, he refered to it as "phasing" instead, and the idea of a mental rundown, or visualization exercises to get the same effect.
I'm not sure whether the label of "phasing" was really entirely intended that way, and it is also a rather metaphorical term, not always representing the experience that well.
But the way Frank initially understood it was simply that the term captured his experience of ending up inside an out of body environment without any classic sense of seperation. It moved on from there, and became more elaborate.
It excited a lot of people, since many people had trouble with inducing the classic OBE, the occult and mystical approaches appeared to have become cumbersome, LaBerge's star was rising, and perhaps there were easier ways to establish the out of body state, similar to WILD induction methods (it's not easier), while maintaining some of the more metaphysical aspects of Monroe's phasing metaphor.
It was the perfect storm.
In sum, labels can be confusing if not aware of the historical context, and the various influences that brought them about. For that reason, I think the best labels are those that accurately describe the experience, since that is where it all starts.
It tends to get confusing when they refer to a theorectical concept, or an idea, such as for example the term Wake Induced Lucid Dream. It describes the experience to some extent, but there is also the assumption that you are dreaming.
The same goes for the term "astral projection", which is an interpretation of the experience as well.
In any case, hope this sheds some light.
MT
Thanks Major Tom,
let me add my 2 cents.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18
The body appeared to be asleep, or slightly out of phase of the physical,
while the mind was awake, which is what the physiological date showed
when measuring the subjects. They called the state focus 10 (Mind awake/Body Asleep).
According to Wikipedia, NREM, stage 1 sleep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-rapid_eye_movement_sleep) - exhibits some kind
of characteristic like F 10:
"People aroused from this stage often believe that they have been fully awake."If stage 1 sleep is the same as (some kind of) F 10, that's an open question to me,
but I think the idea is interesting as TMI doesn't provide too much info on these
Focus Level matters.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18
Perhaps this was because some participants reported experiences, like different imagery,
but still found themselves connected to the physical body, which was not entirely asleep.
Either way, the definitions of focus 10 did not seem as strict anymore as before.
To resolve some of that confusion, I much later made a distinction between a light and
deeper focus 10 in my focus 10 paper. Although it was not ideal, since the term
"body asleep" itself did not fully apply anymore, at least not in a light focus 10.
But back to the earlier history of Monroe. The concept of focus 12 was introduced,
perhaps in an attempt to resolve the same confusion.
When listening to the instructions on the Gateway Wave CDs, I also get the impression
that there exists _at least_ two different kinds of F 12.
In Monroe's second book, he mentions that when the Explorers began to state the Gateway Affirmation,
requesting help from guides or helpers, things started to develop from the initial F 10
experiments. It's a little unclear how much the Affirmation contributed to the creation of the
F 12 concept, but it had some importance.
Further, from mail friend I have gotten the information that Monroe discovered that F 10
actually split into two different Focus Levels, one was the well known F 12, but the other
was F 11. Sometimes F 11 is named the "Access Channel", and F 11 is used much in the
TMI Hemi-Sync CDs called H+ (or Human Plus).
While F 12 is an extorization, F 11 is some kind of internalization, to one part of our I-There,
even if the actual I-There is located in F 42, we can reach some part connected to us through F 11.
I think at least one exercise on the GateWay Wave CDs is made to F 11.
(Beyond F 12 there is the very little known F 13, and I will come back on that matter
in a book review once I've finished reading
Suddenly Psychic.)
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18
It was also for the same reason that it was believed that the OBE either occured in
focus 10, focus 12, or perhaps somewhere in between. The gateway tapes, if they
have not changed since I have seen them, reflect that with out of body exercises both
for focus 10 and 12.
It doesn't seem that it's absolutely clear from the Gateway instructions, what Focus Level
you are attempting an OBE. There even is one exercise in F 21, which is a sort of lift-out
procedure.
When choosing between F 10 and F 12, my impression is that the Gateway Wave CDs put
more importance on F 12 to have an OBE, or at least some kind of specialization of F 12,
the "
log rolling" (Wave 3) and the "
sensing Locale I" (Wave 6) all seem to be F 12 methods
of moving around or feeling the energy-body move within or out of the physical body.
As I'm extremely poor at OBE, but seem to be an expert at experiencing vibrations,
I have had best luck with the "
sensing Locale I" CD, even if I have gotten no OBE.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18
Then later on, in the 90s, LaBerge comes along with the term WILD, which refers
to anything wake induced, after which you start to dream lucidly. The classic OBE
fell within in the scope of that label. . .
The statement (I shorten it) that "
classic OBE fell within the label WILD",
I want to say something about that.
The statement is not exactly what LaBerge has written, and I have read his research
reports on at least three different web sites, with some minor modifications.
(I also think that some results have come from scientists Gabbard and Twemlow.)For my reference of LaBerge's findings, I will use
the version published on TMI's web site (http://www.monroeinstitute.org/resources/out-of-body-experience-studies),
as TMI is closest to the matter of OBE, even if that version is shortened and mixed
with a multitude of other scientific findings.
I get it that, LaBerge states the following:
* OBE and LD seem to be
different phenomena.
* OBE can arise from both WILDs and DILDs.
* OBE is 4 times more likely to arise from a WILD (than a DILD).
* Most WILDs only results in regular LDs (about 70 %).
* The number of WILDs and DILDs were small in the study. Further studies are needed to enhance statistic significance.
So to me, a WILD is no guarantee to an OBE. Remember further that the persons
LaBerge used, were highly skilled in achieving LDs.
Also, LaBerge didn't do too much to verify if the OBE was real, but the validation
experiments he tried, showed failures. And that's the reason LaBerge thinks OBEs
are mind-only illusions, much like traditional science thinks.
Hi Pauli,
I interpret the work of LaBerge to be less ambigious than that. He does appear to make the point that OBEs are more like dreams than anything else. Most other scientists in this area interpret it in the same way, and I haven't seen LaBerge deny it anywhere.
e.g. http://library.macewan.ca/lucidity/LL%204.2/Out%20of%20body%20experiencesas%20lucid%20dreams-Rogo.htm
I think part of the ambiguity in those articles referred to in Jouni's OBE FAQ also stems from not clearly defining the terminology, as well as from the debate at the time whether or not you are really out of the body or not during an OBE, which I consider to be seperate issue.
Purely from a phenomenological stand-point, as per the experience itself, I consider (lucid) dreams to be an OBE (i.e. you experience yourself in a different location than that of the physical body). However, I do not consider all OBEs to be lucid dreams in the sense that the experience of being in a seperate location from your body always coincides with REM.
To put it in a way that would annoy my old math teacher:
(A = B) does not equal (B = A)
In any case, a lot can be said about this debate about the relationship between lucid dreams and OBEs. I had a longer disccussion with one of LaBerge's collaborators about it if interested:
http://www.explorations-in-consciousness.com/forums/index.php?topic=699.msg4259#msg4259
In the end, the conclusion may be that it may not matter a great deal. It simply depends on what you consider dreams to be, useless or valuable in some other way like many shamanistic traditions do for example as portals to "other worlds".
I have not heard of focus 11 or 13 before, but was aware Monroe locates his IThere both "in a slightly out of phase" location as well as beyond focus 27.
I think was part of his realization that there is no real difference between internalized and externalized modes of of travel in consciousness.
Where did your friend get the information about focus 11? I ask, because people have recently come up with all sorts of numbers, some of them self-invented, and not always originating from TMI.
MT
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 16:02:40
Where did your friend get the information about focus 11?
I think you can hear it on some H+ H-S CDs, as well in some youtubes, so I think
the F 11 concept itself is fairly well known from TMI.
But my mail friend came with the statement from lessons from one of the more
advanced TMI courses, that Monroe got the impression that F 10 got split, and
it's from this only source I have got the info that Monroe viewed the F 10 to split
into two different Focus Levels. I think the info came from one of the TMI trainers.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18
Mind you, the label WILD can include the classic seperation, which is
wake-induced as well, but Frank intially said he sort of just found himself
projected or catupulted into an "astral environment", which is the case for
most lucid dreamers as well who practice WILDS.
This "catapulting" event bothers me.
Are you saying that all LDers who enter the astral from an LD, experience
that they are "catapulted" into the astral? Or is it only those who enter from
a WILD? Maybe you should clarify, because my LDs have never had any
catapult effect involved, but that could be that I'm DILD-only aware?
But I would like you to say some more on this matter.
Hi Pauli,
This is just the term I remember him using, in reference to his past experiences.
The way I understood it, he initially had no good idea of how he ended up ended in an environment, usually quite suddenly, as is often reported by lucid dreamers doing WILDs as well, where they often find themselves becoming part of a dream environment rather abruptly.
I'm talking more or less wake-induced here, although often in clouded states of consciousness. DILDS would be different.
It goes to show, the price for best controlled transitions into any sort of "out-of-body state" still goes to the OBE community as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks for the info on focus 11. Sounds interesting.
MT
Wow, now I can understand why I was told to drop the labels. This is almost like a conversation on Religion, where everyone is right to a point, but has their own way of saying it. Too many bulls running into each other here. :-)
I like Tom Campbell's terminology the best, "Accessing the Wider Reality". It pretty well tallies up what we are doing and what our goals are in one statement! :-)
Quote from: Lionheart on June 17, 2012, 17:42:49
Wow, now I can understand why I was told to drop the labels. This is almost like a conversation on Religion, where everyone is right to a point, but has their own way of saying it.
Yup. :-)
I had that thought about that the other day. It's important to a lot of people, because the topic of OBEs touches on so much more than just an opinion. It's deeply personal for many, very much like religion.
Perhaps for good reason, because most here believe it is related to survival and continuity after death in some way.
Noone does not get a little bit fanatic about that when push comes to shove.
MT