Focus 15

[funinfloating111]

sorry about posting again i forgot something [xx(] where in this process would i attempt an RTZ projection?

[Frank]

From what you describe I'd say you were perhaps at some preliminary Focus 10 state. Or it's quite possible you just ignited some bodily chakras that are giving you a weird sensation (as they do) and that's about it.

Focus 12 has particular characteristics none of which you mention. At focus 12 you should begin to perceive swirling colours and/or abstract shapes and/or varying kinds of textures. Plus, you can get to hear all kinds of pops, bangs, tearing and wrenching sounds. Also, at Focus 12 you can get a distinct feeling of movement. With me I tend to get a feeling of moving forwards, but others have felt sinking or rising sensations also.

Barring getting scared and being zapped back to physical (very common at first), the transition from Focus 12 through to Focus 21 is normally a smooth, progressive transition.  So the fact you say you are in some way stuck, sort of indicates to me again that you are in some state other than Focus 12.

I'm not an expert in RTZ projections as I've only done it probably half a dozen times (the novelty of being able to see my sleeping physical soon wore off). But Focus 21 is the point I used to separate. I'd get to F21 then think about rolling gently from side to side and out I'd pop.

HTH

Yours,
Frank

[funinfloating111]

thanks, that explains why i couldnt gently go to focus 21. i assumed it was focus 12 because i read somewhere that when you enter focus 12 you start fell like your in a 3d surrounding, wich i do feel. so to get to focus 12 should i just continue what i do to get to focus 10, and then that wierd deep focus 10 that i thought was focus 12. i just imagine that my body is falling asleep, and my brain waves are slowing, and that usually does it. so do i do something different at that point or should i just keep at it a little longer?

and also, if you dont mind, could you please give me a link to a site or another post about the usuall effects and sensations of Focus 12? that would be really helpful. thanks

[Frank]

I wondered if maybe you should think about shifting that point of consciousness upwards through the top of your head.

I keep reading your original description and again it does seem very much like you are at a preliminary F10 state. Where you say, "its like my conciousness sits in the very center of my head and theres "space" between my point of perspective and my eyelids" I can relate to the feeling of this all too well, because that's kinda like how F10 starts out with me.

But from F10, I immediately get a sensation of movement - forwards and upwards - while the sensation of F12 begins coming through and a couple of seconds later I'm at F21. (I concur with MajorTom in that I too have difficulty separating F12, F15 and F21.)

With yourself, maybe you need to give the process a little kickstart, as I say, by shifting that point of consciousness upwards through the top of your head. Whilst doing this, what you need to look out for is seeing any foggy kind of swirling colour(s), or something else I see often are these dark abstract shapes that look like line drawings, which come and go. Or if you start to hear any kind of sound like pops and bangs or knocking sounds, and the like... you are reaching F12.

Once you begin to see anything, resist the temptation to focus on whatever effects that are coming about, but imagine yourself thinking through them. Like, if you see the abstract shapes, the first thing you tend to do is try and focus on them. Instead, focus ahead at a point way in the distance and imagine moving forwards through it all.

If your experience is anything like mine, you'll get a sensation of forwards movement and emerge into the 3D blackness which is Focus 21.

Yours,
Frank

[funinfloating111]

i am gonna try shifting my point of consuisness through the top of my head, i hope it works and thanks for the advice. if anything good happens il make sure to post it. and my vocabulary isnt too good (thats something else im working on []) what does preliminary mean? im guessing it means the start of focus 10, but i have no idea lol. and if i did get too focus 12 would i feel my physical body at all? when I get to the preliminary focus 10 i can slightly feel my body but its really abstract and partially there. for example, sometimes i get the feeling that my legs are spread really far apart, and the keep spreading till i feel like im doing the splits. that cant be true though because my physical legs are straight. is this what major tom means by "sensory reduction"? i think i get what happend now, when i was deeply relaxed i thought i was in focus 10. and when i really entered focus 10 it felt different so i assumed focus 12. anyway you guys helped alot and i thank you very much. if anyone else has anything too add go ahead []

[Mikegreen]

hey im kinda curious but what are the phases for.  Like are they for trying differnt things in differnt phases or just stronger meditation?   Any info or links would be greatly appreciated.

[Frank]

funinfloating111:  Don't worry about the vocabulary we understand you just fine. Yes, I mean the start of Focus 10. As MajorTom has said, at the transition from F10 to F12 you should not feel your physical much (if at all). With me I feel nothing of my physical at this point. But at the beginning stages, you do feel your physical but at a reduced level. Which seems to be giving you the feeling that your limbs are all over the place, when in fact they are not.

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. It sounds like just one of those weird feelings you simply get used to and then it doesn't bother you anymore. A lot of the feelings and sensations people get in the beginning are like that.

MajorTom: At F21 I more often than not find myself in a 3 dimensional blackness where the blackness is punctuated by thousands of tiny points of light - which I call a starscape effect. Here I find I have three options:

1) I can look at the starscape and see perhaps one of the points of light may change in some way. Possibly change colour or shape or often I'll see a kind of black-hole effect forming. As I see the change I'll will myself to move towards and through it. As I do so, a few moments later I'll find myself within some non-physical realm. I often use this technique when meeting Harath, my regular guide. I'll think of him and immediately see a swirling black-hole effect. So I travel through it and next moment I'll be standing alongside him. I use this technique mainly for when I wish to travel to specific places that I've been to before. I'll place an Intent to be at that place, see some kind of effect form in the starscape, then head off in that direction.

2) As I see the 3D blackness I hold off a moment and the starscape effect will change texture and form a kind of screen. So it becomes like I'm sitting in a cinema watching a big screen from a short distance away. At which point I can watch whatever imagery is displayed or project my own mental imagery onto the screen. Often I like to try something new and just explore whatever comes about. So I'll place the Intent to do this and flip-through a number of scenes of various places on the screen. When I see something interesting I'll step into the image. A few moments later I'll find myself at that place within the Astral.

3) At the 3D blackness stage, I hold off moving towards some kind of effect as in (1) and hold off the Astral Screen effect as in (2). Then I'll think of myself gently rocking from side to side. At first nothing will happen and when I was first trying this I'd think too much of my physical, end up back there and have to begin again. So I have to think of myself rocking gently from side to side *as if* I were in the physical, but not actually... if you see what I mean. Then, after a few seconds, I'll get the sensation of being in a body. Again, when this first happened I thought, oh no, back in the physical (because that's kinda how it feels). But much to my surprise I wasn't. Once I feel "locked" within this "body" I can simply roll a couple of times to one side and find myself in the real-time zone.

HTH

Yours,
Frank

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Mikegreen

hey im kinda curious but what are the phases for.  Like are they for trying differnt things in differnt phases or just stronger meditation?   Any info or links would be greatly appreciated.

Mike: Sorry but I'm not quite with you. What do you mean when you say, "what are the phases for?" Did you mean to ask about Focus Levels, or did you mean something else?

Yours,
Frank

[Eol007]

Hi Frank,

Wow - wery interesting to see your observations about the 'Starscape Effect' - as your post actually answers something I had been puzzling over since my mid teens (gosh nearly 30yrs ago). For whatever reason my interest in OBEs waned off and on until coming to the fore again a few years ago! Funnily I experienced a similar effect whilst practicing a psychic awareness exercise very recently, although the objective was for a different reason it actually reminded me of my formative experiences.

Good soul food this []

Many thanks,


Stephen []

[Mikegreen]

yea i was asking about the focus levels.  Are they just deeper stages or trance or are there differnt levels to try differnt things?

[funinfloating111]

hey mike (we used to be neigbores lol) the only information i have about the focus levels i find here on the forum, you should definantly check out major toms sticky post in astral consciousness called focus 10 mind awake/body asleep. i diddnt know you wernt supposed to be able too feel your body because when people obe they talk about vibrations, and when you body vibrates you feel it right? maybe not i dont know lol. anyways the feeling of my limbs being spread out and bent in strange ways always makes me focus on them, because it feels so wierd. i suppose i could get over that by practicing so much im used to that misaligned feeling. the good news is i can get into at least a light focus 10 on every attempt so i hope to build consistancy with my OBE's. i would much rather learn something in a long, tedious, manner but be fairly good at it then getting random lucky attempts, if thats even possible. either way im trying not too rush things because i know il get it sooner or later. that starscape thing sounds very interesting, i hope i get to see that one day.

[Frank]

MajorTom: It's amazing how you say you are trying for a year to work on getting from the RTZ into the Astral, when I was trying the exact opposite for ages. I'd always go from physical to Astral and could never get into the real-time zone.

Regarding the F12-15-21 transition I admit I could never really work out what state Monroe was calling F15. Making a sharp distinction I find impossible. Looking at it closely, there is a sort of transition phase from F12 to F21. But reading the various descriptions on the Internet about F15 being a place where time stands still and the like. If this is the case, well, I can't see it.

I think what may have happened is Monroe himself had something particular to him at this point, which he must have written about. Then everyone repeated it like it were absolute fact. So F15 became a place where time stands still.

As regards the tapes, I bought the CD set as they were on special offer at the time from a place in the UK. If you bought the whole set you got them for half price - so I did. The only CD I found myself repeatedly listening to was Wave 1. I did listen to the rest of the CDs which I found interesting, but Wave 1 was the only CD I found I needed. At the time, my primary difficulty was getting into the Focus 10 state. Once I was into Focus 10 everything would progress fairly smoothly so I didn't need anything from then on. But I did put in a lot of work in the beginning, slowing the process down and familiarising myself with the various states.

Amazing, when you are at the F21 state you already have this second body. With me, as I say, it is something I have to consciously create otherwise it doesn't come about. I can definitely say that when transitioning through F21 I don't have any 2nd body of the kind I create for an RTZ projection.

I have transitioned to Astral from the real-time zone a number of times. All I did was express the intent to do so. Then comes a feeling of flying off and I go through patterns of swirling colours normally, then the Astral comes into view. Doing this I have also entered the Astral through grid-like patterns of colour of the kind you see depicted on the back cover of Astral Dynamics. Now that really is an experience and a half... wow!

Yours,
Frank


 

[Frank]

Mike: One of the early pioneers in this kind of work was a chap called Bob Monroe. He developed a technique of transitioning from physical to astral he called, phasing. The Focus Levels relate to the various stages of this process. If you were to do a search on Monroe +"focus levels" I'm sure it would give you a mine of info on the basics.

Yours,
Frank

[Frank]

MajorTom: Something tells me we are set to have some very interesting discussions in the months to come.

Now, calling it a "nullpoint" makes a lot of sense. I'm sure I posted something to this effect a couple of years ago when a similar discussion came up. Because there is a kind of soft "null" that I pass through between F12 to F21 which I mentioned in my post. It's an ever so subtle point where everything seems to blank out for a moment. I can't seem to do it myself, but maybe Monroe could actually stop the transitioning exactly at the point of this null and sort of sit there in the midst of it, as it were.

For me, getting to F21 presents no problem whatever... provided I can reach Focus 10! Once I attain Focus 10 then it's like everything switches to automatic and within a few seconds I'm at F21. However, getting to Focus 10 I still cannot just do on demand. I have to be in the right kind of relaxed mood which tends to come about most mornings, thankfully. Which is why mornings are my time for projecting. But I'd dearly love to be able to simply project whenever I wanted to.

Having retired from the rat-race is helping considerably as there's opportunity for me to be able to have a lie down early afternoon. I've been trying to attain F10 at this time for about a month. I've got close, have achieved what we might call a light Focus 10 on about 25% (or so) of occasions, but nothing concrete as yet. I'll do it though, it's just a matter of time and practice.

All the best.

Yours,
Frank

[upstream]

quote:Frank wrote to Major Tom:

quote: It's amazing how you say you are trying for a year to work on getting from the RTZ into the Astral, when I was trying the exact opposite for ages. I'd always go from physical to Astral and could never get into the real-time zone.

Yes, it seems we come from opposdite directions with each its own unique challenges. I even once unconsciously had invisible hands trying to stop me from flying off in the 3d darkness, although the second body was already formed.

Then it was Frank when you collided to each other in the middle of F21, hehe.  Greeting to everyone.

When I saw the title F15 I thought I would find a nice discussion about a state I've never experienced before, but look what the hell I found? Hehe an even more greater conversation.

As far as I know F21 is the gate to Locale Two, therefore focus levels below 21 are correspond with Local One, the real-time zone. I've accomplished many forced separation from a state in which I felt myself trapped in a honey like substance (deep F10 I think). These projections tend to bypass the RTZ-state because the heavy substance makes me blind. After the honey is saved back by a cable like structure, the result is indistinguishable from those dreams that regularly follows an F21-separation - my basic method to project. However, I have to note, they are not real separations (there is no pull). It is like simply getting out of my bed into the darkness. The result is, when I get my vision back, the mental representation of my bedroom somewhere around the lower F22, I think.

I'm not an expert in Phasing but I have some experiences and insights that may be of interest. Generally, I think Phasing is simply an internal OBE in which the projector don't make any affort to separate after the first split of his consciousness (that required to reach F12) has accomplished. Although the F12-projection has already occured, the projector is either unaware of this fact or his consciousness is directed for the appearence of

a.) the "astral screen" effect that marks the onset of a secondary internal projection which required for reaching F21 (REM-sleep) is already in progress
b.) the "3D blackness" which is an indicative of the decondensation/expansion process of the F12 body which may or may not include F21

As I see it, the main difference between phasing and OBE is the split of the F12 body. Its low energy copy is exteriorised into the RTZ could be lost before reintegration takes place. On the other hand, phasing is an expansion of the F12 body through a cone like structure that allows seamless download of information.

I had one very intense experience about the reverse process of expansion when I tried to get back into my body by spinning the energy field around it from my astral state. The next moment I found myself hovering above the land in the form of an enormous cloud. I couldn't see but sensed my environment perfectly. I felt myself moving in the general direction from which I came. I gradually get a spinning motion and a more dense body. Just before I slipt through the walls of my house I got a more regular vision. I saw myelf from the direction of my physical as well. I entered the room at the upper corner of the room above the door then rapidly spun into my body. I was still spinning inside for a minute before I tried to separate again.

[upstream]

It definately is, Tom, thanks for your detailed response. Seems old dogs like me can't learn new tricks, but at least, you guys makes me think about the process again. Now I sit in my armchair molding my snots into little balls, that is for me a sure sign of being involved in deep thinking. So, my reply would be long.


1. honey

quote:Yes, honey typed substance is a nice way to describe some of the aspexcts of focus 10. Things start to get "fluffy" in terms of what remains of feeling the body as focus 10 starts to get deeper. Quite a comfortable relaxing state.

Actually, when I wrote about that "honey like substance" I meant it quite literally. In that state I feel my body made of a substance that seems to be some mix of gas, honey and rubber bands. It takes a great effort for me to force separation in that state, an agressive force that seems entirely missing from other types of projection I got the luck to know so far.

Etheric separation is tricky to get started, because there is no real paralysis just my body is extremly relaxed. First I need to distinguish between my physical body and the etheric substance, but after I suceed the process would goes fine. I'm not sure that those discriminations is really needed, but I always feel a treshold where my phyical body would move. After I got a good mental grip on that snot I need to exert a great deal of force to pull it out. When I was about half in and out sometimes I feel tiny threads stretching out then being ripped apart by the tension.

Other times I've observed my body in a similar state as being similar to a sack full of water. By protuding (!) my "arm" other areas has got more tightly bounded. An another occasion when I awakened from the disembodied state of a hypnagogic show (just call it phasing if you would like) and I grabbed back to my groin area I found vessel like threads and no any tommy. I think those vessels are the nadis (EM-tubes) or perhaps the blood flood of vessels (ion strems) in the abdomen. I was able to stretch and deform the vessels by trying to separate my trunk but they were keeped inside my body. I wasn't able to see yet somehow I felt them through the darkness. Once I "saw" similar vessels in my arms too, they seemed to were embedded is the honey, which is, I think the etheric substance or more precisely, bioplasm, body areas sepcific ions that locally produced and used up in various tissues.

But the most interesting thing occurs with separation. After I'm out I usually see a cable attaching to the solar plexus regio of my double. At tha same time I always hear the sounds of my breathing coming from everywhere and I could hear distorted noises from the physical reality (verified). I have to note that it is possible that I mixed up two similar types of projection above. Anyways, I think this states are corresponfd to the deepest stage of NREM sleep.

I used to induce them by a mixture of self-hypnosis, concentrating on my solar plexus regio and oscillating my attention between the actual sense of my body and a more internal focus (result of imagining the feelings of various surfaces and noises that colliding objects make) to periodically turn my awareness away from my sumberling body. At one point, most likely after several brief periods of unconsciousness I use to get a crystal clear awareness as a sure signal that it's time for attempting a separation.

I would be grateful if you would try the etheric separation from your deep F10 states and share your experiences. Considering they instability maybe it's a pointless practice but the result is still an interesting state to explore.


2. mataphores

quote:Then the next question becomes, how deep does the 'self' go?

Good question. We might could answer after we defined what self is...

quote:I suppose you could call phasing an inward OBE, but then again, maybe ultimately OBEing also consists of going inward into an image of the bedroom except that we generally locate that image as existing outside ourselves. The whole inward/outward thing is a very complicated issue that touches upon self-world bounderies and how these bounderies may shift where self becomes world (perception).

Indeed. By exposing myself to the concepts of fluctocondensation, terms of 'inward' and 'outward' have lost their original meaning. I hope it wouldn't further increase confusion but I have to introduce some metaphores at this point. Perhaps they make more sense than many pages of detailed explanations (that will come though), especially if one is able to get they meaning intuitively.

When I think about "inward" and "outward" sometimes I see our essence in a sand-glass shape that composed from two cones with their apexes meeting in the neck regio (that would correspond to F15). Other times I see ourselves as a bubble with a hole in its top: the hatch into the outside world in F21. From this point one can project into personal worlds of probabilties, lucid dreams (by moving "latrerally") or (by moving "centrifugally") into the vast dimensional "space" of unknown that surrounds the bubble.

I wouldn't be suprised if every human like consciousness system is living they lifes within a similar bubble. The bubble is the mental representation of the world as it is manifested through the work of our sensory systems. It is a shield and a filter made by our similarly constructed brains to form a secure "environment" where consciousness could evolve inside, kinda like butterflies in their cocoons.

But in reality, we are hovering in the darkness of the unknown and our sensory experiences are just fleeting images of our frightened mind.


3. dynamics

Once again, the essence what I want to express with my poor English is that while the 3D blackness is likely the result of the preliminary stage of (an F12-based) field-expansion, the astral screen is more likely represent the onset of the regular dreaming process (the second mindsplit after the F10->F12 transition). Unfortunately, I've never experienced the 3D blackness or I have no memories about anything similar I could acces in this moment, except some star fields and seeing through my closed eyes. Now I know the reason as well: basically the drive of phasing is an outward directed visual awareness, something i don't practice anymore. I think successfull phasing lies on the ability to sustain attention outside of the limited space of the faint, unstructured light patterns we could see behind our closed eyes.

A relevant piece of information from http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/neuromed.htm:

quote:What you do is first close your eyes and be aware of your breathing. Then look into the darkness behind your eyelids. Orient your eyes towards the point directly in front of you. At the same time, place your visual attention on a point above it. To do it you will have to separate the direction of your visual attention form the direction of your eyes. One person found that it created a large amount of visual imagery in just a few seconds. Another found themselves disappearing, felt shocked at this and pulled themselves out of the experience.

By phasing away from this hole the brain is supposed to shut down into a stand-by mode but will continue its work as a silent radio receiver. What makes the information download possible is the "silver cord of astral projections", a hypothetic energy structure I call 'emanation cone.' Basically the rote of the cone would be identical with an F12-type field (in interacrion with those EM-tubes that are generated by reverberating systems in the brain). Its further parts are marked by the trajectory that the energy body follow through its decondensation process. I suppose the information transmission is not only influenced by relativistic time distortion but regarding the ultradian rythms and the ever changing atmospheric conditions it should be phasic in nature.

Major Tom again:

quote:I don't know how to approach focus 12 to be honest. It does seem people very quickly come across the 3d blackness, and perhaps evebn more routinely than the symbols of focus 12.

Seems we're in the same boat. F12, as it being descibed by so many seems out of my grip too. I think F12 is an unnatural state. With F21 they could represent the opposite ends of the same spectrum of the rapid decondensation process of the F12/RTZ-body.

I suppose, everyone has a natural state to attain between F12 and F21 represented by a specific degree of decondensation of the consciousness field and a corresponding subjective experience of the 3D blackness. While F12 is the preliminary stage of, the astral screen effect and seeing through the closed eyes represent the F21-end of the desondensation process.

I still believe that phasing is an OBE in which the F12 body is compelled to decondensate in situ. On the other hand, in the case of a typical RTZ-OBE that may turn into an astral projection, the F12 body split "horizontally" by ejecting its low energy copy into the RTZ. The F12-body is not bounded to the tissues like the F10/bioplasm body. It is totally independent from the physical body and could emerge directly into the RTZ at any point one would believe it to occupy by condensating from the vacuum. Close to bioplasm sources like rich vegetation or our own physical body the dense F12-field is wrapped into etheric substance (F10-body) and get bounded. I've observed the formation of my bioplasm cable close to the body in RTZ (some breath work was needed to).

But the main point is that the exteriorised F12-copy is still free to decondensate into the astral totally independently from its originator that plays the main role in the phasing process, alone. Of course, in reality there are no original and child-field, but differencies in the amount of energy they having - corresponding to the "amount of consciousness." The personality cannot sustain itself in a carrier that running on a lower energy state without being object of some shematization (think about broken holograms: their parts become faint, but keep the whole picture).

To keep it short, the most important issue: if the decondensed "external" F12-copy get lost through an astral projection, I mean before the recondensation process (returning from the astral) and the reintegration of the condensed field takes place memories will be lost. If the returning is hurried up by waking up prematurely for instance, then memories would be week. The reason is simple: they are some cascade type reaction in the cone that required to be intact for sucessfull memory-transmission. However, the cone is very unlikely in OBEs. If it exists, it would be connected to an external condensatum that could persist only as a result of unconscious application of the twin method.


4. practical aspects

I think the ideal method for going home from an astral trip would had a similar structure with the djinn experience I've described at the end of my previous post. First, by concentrating the space around the body we should remotely reaching back and get contact with an expanded but body bounded field of energy, then second, we should try to spin up that energy to trigger the retraction process.

quote:I personally use the focus 21 to establish focus 10. It exerts a stronger pull for me than the focus 10 tape, and my body mutes far quicker. I don't pay any attention the instructions on the tape.

I suppose F12 wave pattern is only let the natural expansion of the consciousness-filed to unfold while the F21 wave pattern excerts a pull from the other side by facilitating the brain state measured just before the onset of REM. Perhaps F21 is efficient but F12 is more mysterious, because it is an "unnatural" state between waking, REM & deep sleep.

If you own the tapes not the CD version it would be a good idea to preserv them by playing them onto your computer. You could also loop a segment and burn it onto a CD to get rid of voices of the Monroe family. But if you have the patterns on our HDD, it would be very difficult to surmount the temptation and not to analysing them. As far as I know (sources contradict each other) there are at least 2 (3?) types of F21.

I think, speculations about the dynamics are not important in our current state, even they could be detrimental by setting up self-limiting barriers. But one thing I know for sure: more close for the reality the models we construct, more adept we become to manipulate reality. Perhaps in the buisness of OBE is even more true that there is nothing as practical as a good theory. For example, by imagining a modified process of phasing, we could serve the process for our intent to hook into. Another: by defining the fundamental vectors of projection (centrifugal, centripetal, horizontal) we could travel by, our navigation would become more easier.

Also, I see a couple of direct practical applications looming up in the distance. First the twin technique and the polarity flipping manoeuvre. They are practical solutions for getting phasing into work from ordinary lucid dreams, second, making secondary, terciary, etc. internal projections by multipiled twin methods (something I'm currently on) and third, appling the reverse phasing process I've described in my previous post. Due to the fact that you have already emphatised, that is, after F10 everything goes very fast, perhaps the most important thing we migh need to understand is the underlaying regulation of our waking consciousness (ultradian hypothesis of state alteration) and timing our attempts accordingly.


5. F12 to F21 field decondensation & the 3D-blackness

quote:Characteristically, if you are in focus 21 you will have a very strong of self that is in 3D blackness with an astral screen effect not far around the corner. This strong sense of self is often less apparant in becoming lucid through dreamlike images in my experience. However, I'm sure it's possible to move towards focus 22 (lucid dreaming) directly from focus 10 by going deep and partially lucid into some dream vignettes, which easily occur in focus 10. However, this strong sense of self in focus 21, which if one is very proficient at phasing can be held throughout the focus levels until the point of 21 where there is a true astral screen effect.

I understand your point perfectly and I think you have just summarised all the characteristic features of the Phasing Process!

However, I'm afraid that we still don't understand each other. I mean the language barrier - I understand English very well yet I'm unable to express myself -, but the main problem is the lack of consensus in the terms we use to describe our experiences. At first, for me, I cannot consider the F22-dreaming as a typical lucid dream scenario at all. As a result of progressively increasing my awareness, a couple of times I was seen the desintegration of the landscape into a dark, surreal space filled by house-ship like objects like soap-bubbles in tha air. When I project in the opposite direction, moving away from the RTZ by ordering my energy body to move "centrifugally" I saw the disfigured version of my "landing unit" when I look back. Like an abstract and constantly changing mixture of a house and a spaceship. The landscape seems to be a more interpreted version of this level that associated with lesser lucidity. This is the layer where one form of shared dreaming is supposed to takes place. Many would call it as lower astral, I suppose. It is a twilight zone without nights and days where the space as we know is just collapsing. One could reach this zone by stepping into a fantom wall then stabilising the surreal space behind by carefully moving attention between the palm and the darkness. At one point perception would open up and darkness got depths. Perhaps the result is similar to the 3D blackness. Second, the body feeling one may hold through the induction process is part of our unconscious defense. It's only maintained by the direction of your awareness. If an induction method would not include the act of monitoring the body for at least time to time because it is visually oriented like phasing one would not experience any body at all. Third... there is no third.

quote:I either could wait for an astral screen, or fly off into RTZ.

If you separations indeed occur in F21 as mine are supposed to then I doubt that it's the RTZ. For me there is not real separation, no efforts are involved in that state. I just get out of my bed and move like I do when I need to take a leak. The only difference that I couldn't see. I call that state F22-dreaming. How did you come to the conclusion that it is the RTZ? Furthermore, what do you mean by 'flying off into RTZ'? Perhaps you have governed a more flexible belief system than me by using the key concepts of Phasing. It could be that you directly "separate" into that space that I could see behind F22-walls.

What grabbed my attention is your observation about the 3D blackness that seems to manifest after you lifted upwards. I found an even more interesting assumption of yours when you asked Frank that weither he would "simply starting to move around in the 3d blackness as if it were your bedroom?" I have to say it's a fascinating concept, something that could unite our different views. I've already thought about what if the blackness I'm experience after getting out of my dream bed is actually the 3D blackness!

Once again, the difference lies on the direction of our awareness: yours is visually oriented (Phasing), mine is kynestesic (OBE). I use to periodically check my body while attempting an OBE. When time of F21-separation has came I still focus on the sense of my dream body because I believe I have to walk away from the bed to stabilize the dream by touching funitures, walls. Perhaps I not stabilize the dream but more precisely I trigger it into existence. To finish that I need to get my vision by focusing little details on my palm or any given surface I could touch. Sometimes I use my palm to get vision on without getting out of the bed, but basically it is the same. I never tired to look through the darkness [a]right after[/a] separation because years ago I came to a conclusion that the only thing I could see is the usual entopic light patterns.

But I had some experiment with "teleportation" in that state that support this theory. Perhaps you have observed as well that some "F21-separation" takes place in a room that is not you actual bedroom but most likely a place you slept before. It could be part of an another house that even don't exist by now. The "teleportation" trick is simple: before you have your vision you could pretend yourself anywhere. After you got the confidence that you are indeed at the place you want to you could anchore yourself with the wall contact trick and trigger visuals on your palms. If visuals are alredy on you could step into a wall to deprive yourself at first. This tricks works because F22-places are just mental represenations in the F21-space. They are projected from the centre of our self quite unconsciously in order to protect ourseves from the uninterpretendable (this word is copyrighted).

We are blinded by pictures we project around but walking on nothing. Our decondesed energy bodies work like spotlights for guidence and for those whom energy fields hold the similar condensation degree. Phase specific perception could manifest by turning attention away from dream pictures by stepping into walls for example and by establishing a real outwardly directed perception. See my point? I can't explain myself better.

Frank wrote:

quote:As I see the 3D blackness I hold off a moment and the starscape effect will change texture and form a kind of screen. So it becomes like I'm sitting in a cinema watching a big screen from a short distance away.

Yeah, it could be the REM-window before the general 3D-background of F21. Generally this window could be interpreted as the narrowed version of the entire astral bedroom.

quote:So I'll place the Intent to do this and flip-through a number of scenes of various places on the screen. When I see something interesting I'll step into the image. A few moments later I'll find myself at that place within the Astral.

Yes it's pretty much like my old "WILD." I need to practice it again. I think it quite possible to reach the astral through the various windows of F21 similarly as I do it from the surreal space type dream version of F21. But I'm curious: Frank, have you got some evidence that made you sure about that the result of that type of phasing you described is indeed an astral projection? To avoid misapprehension, by astral projection I mean shutting down of the brain into deep sleep (no REM or activity in the visual system), and various degree of time distortion (the felt experience seems more longer than its real time compound), and most importantly: because of the deep sleep there is no cognition possible by the brain. Or could it be F22-dreaming? By F22 dreaming I mean the state which you would experience after getting up from your bed into the darkness. It is REM-sleep.

quote:3) At the 3D blackness stage, I hold off moving towards some kind of effect as in (1) and hold off the Astral Screen effect as in (2). Then I'll think of myself gently rocking from side to side. At first nothing will happen and when I was first trying this I'd think too much of my physical, end up back there and have to begin again. So I have to think of myself rocking gently from side to side *as if* I were in the physical, but not actually... if you see what I mean. Then, after a few seconds, I'll get the sensation of being in a body. Again, when this first happened I thought, oh no, back in the physical (because that's kinda how it feels). But much to my surprise I wasn't. Once I feel "locked" within this "body" I can simply roll a couple of times to one side and find myself in the real-time zone.

It definately makes sense for me, and pretty consistent with my experiences (too many tossing bodies around the time of separation). If indeed the further deconsdensation process of an already "expansed" F12-body would be responsible for the 3D-effect and phasing in general than the rocking body experience either could be the "root of the cone" (the dense part of the F12-field in RTZ), or its decondensed upper end. The latter is the energetic background of the dream/astral body that could be either in F21 (3D blackness) or in the astral representation of the bedroom (beyond the astral screen effect of F21).

I think our evolution as individuals point in a direction of getting able to sense this "cone" as a whole, which is actually our totality that seems to be dispersed along the continuum of consciousness. We are going from below C1 and headed to F-God or kinda like. Seems we are at a threshold beyond which would be no more houses and walls just pure awareness...

[Rastus]

M'kay, I need a quick opinion.  I have 4 of Monroe's books waiting on reserve at the library (that's all they had).  Which one should I read?  Some seemed pretty old and others recent?

[upstream]

I've thought only have three. I've read only the first one, "Journeys Out of the Body." It's very good.

[Frank]

quote:Frank, have you got some evidence that made you sure about that the result of that type of phasing you described is indeed an astral projection? To avoid misapprehension, by astral projection I mean shutting down of the brain into deep sleep (no REM or activity in the visual system), and various degree of time distortion (the felt experience seems more longer than its real time compound), and most importantly: because of the deep sleep there is no cognition possible by the brain. Or could it be F22-dreaming? By F22 dreaming I mean the state which you would experience after getting up from your bed into the darkness. It is REM-sleep.

upstream: I've got no concrete evidence that would satisfy a court. Just the usual empirical stuff brought about over the years. Another thing, while I use it (because most other people do) I dislike the term astral projection as it's a tad too mystical for me.

I can see from your posts that you have studied the process you go through very thoroughly, and your latest post was an especially interesting read. To be honest, and I've said this a number of times in the past, I never really concern myself with what "body" I'm in or the like. Nor what my brain is doing, or the type of sleep I'm having, etc., etc. I know that REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement and that's about it. Also, I never do any kind of energy work, or breath awareness, or such like; and I'm only interested in the various Focus states" Monroe labelled as they serve as markers in my projection process. To me they act in a similar way to road signs.

My experience in projecting within the RTZ is very limited as I only managed to do it relatively recently. That is, after having had hundreds of projections over a number of years into non-physical environments. It appears there are people, such as yourself and MajorTom, who in some way automatically create a "body" at some stage in your respective projection processes. But with me, this has never happened for some reason.

Once I reach the 3D blackness at Focus 21 I'm off exploring. All thoughts and/or feelings of my physical are long gone at this point. The only time I have to deal with my physical after that, is when I feel an all too familiar tugging which says it wants me back for some reason.

Yours,
Frank

[upstream]

After all those bad science and crap poetry I've done I'm glad you are still here.

Tom you're right about the honey-projections, they are pretty old. Although in my case, heavy vibrations was never involved in etheric projections only RTZ. I wonder why etheric times are gone. Perhaps they are detrimental so the body has learned to avoid them?

I think distinct pre-states for various types of projections are exist. We could wake up in one of them and something in our body will know what subtle manipulations are needed to procure separation. It's fairly automatic, presumably because our bodies could remember similar situations from the past.

There are times when my body is stick to one type of preseparation stage for couple of days like it was trying to learn it. For example, there was a period when I've always projected with a strong pull above my liver (I mean definately not in the middle) accompained by an indescrinable feeling about a "flip" from the previous dream's atmosphere to more outside.

I think they are something in our mind that could be conditioned for getting automatically aware of OBE-conductive states we could encounter on our way to sleep and back. In my case this ability is a result of my intent for doing some projection no matter what states comes forth. Fluidity and passivity of my mind and letting irrational beliefs to grow out from nothing was also greatly involved.

quote:For example, have a (non-physical) female computer voice comment on my exiting.

I'm sure that is not simply a belief. The consciousness of my energy body has, too, a female computer voice when I ask it in dreaming.

I've studied the cable for three years and I know its dynamics pretty well to conclude it's more than a belief. Other movements of "etheric separations" could be the most objective aspects of the whole OBE-phanomena! When I've been having those experiences I was fairly naive.

quote:I would love to try that [etheric separations], but in the way I experience focus 10 I don't think that's possible.

I think you're right. States induced by binaural exposition seem somewhat unnatural for me. I admit that I have no experiences with the real tapes and my emulations are not good and they effect might be far from real OBE-producing prestates. However, I've heard from others too and it is pretty consistent with my experiences, that one has to cease binaural exposition after about 20-40 minutes to get an OBE.

I've been hearing many people complaining about how difficult is to project with the tapes. The trick I think is to cease the binaural stimulation after the desired focus level is supposed to be reached. As neither mine rips, nor the original tapes are perfect. They could facilitate the desired state by increasing the proper bands of the EEG-power spectrum, but they are still frozen wave-patterns that couldn't be perfect for anyone and any time.

In 2002 I've got some promising results by exposing myself to a BWG-emulated version of F12. This project was an attempt to conqure the early evening circadian window for OBEing. Usually after about 30-40 minutes of exposition I used to turn on my stomach/right side to project on my own. Besides the act of intending projection and some inner silence I was pracice no elaborted technique was needed. Often I was concentrated on the inner noises because they seemed to be amplified.

The carrier intensity profile has chosen almost arbitrarily. Actually I've made experiments with three different carrier-volume profile, one of them was about twice as efficient. With that preset I've got 4 and a 'half' succes by a total of 10 attempts in a time span of three months that involved the testing of the other two presets as well. The most successfull one has a relative volume profile of 30/20/15/15/10/10/10 for the carriers of 100, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500, 600 (Hz) respectively. If there is anyone who want to give it a try but not understood this frequency stuff, etc. just send me a PM and we work out something.

quote:Actual seperation occurs for me only when all my physical senses have shut down, and in focus 10 my visual as well as auditory senses are still active. Could it be that you experiences, and having difficulty seperating from this state could perhaps be due to a conflict in incomplete sensory reduction?

Perhaps the opposite is true. For me, practicing with binaurals is like being grounded to C1 all allong. If my consciousness isn't lost by the impact of a new state most likely I have no feelings about tresholds beyond which my consciousness seems to be entirely isolated from my body - which isolation is, I think, something that definately needed for an etheric OBE.

Binaural stimulation only provide some information for the brain about a state that could be set in for a while providing that the following conditions are met:
1.) the binaurally described state is natural or at least it is close to a natural state (Natural states have a more greater probability so they could be sustained by the current "wiring pattern of the brain." By exposing the brain to a pattern that show a new equilibrum state the brain is compelled to reorganising itself. When the rewiring process is done black out periods would decrease and consciousness could be kept all along.);
2.) the intent and current belief system should support the process;
3.) the actual state of the underlying regulation system should support the state alteration.

So getting in F10, F12 or whatever is not an automatic process at all and can't be forced by the tapes. In fact, lower volumes are more efficient becasue the actual wave pattern only provide the description of the desired state in terms that the brain could understand. Intent is the real drive for state alteration which is made possible or not by the current belief system.

quote:Also, I think if you would heavily imagine an effortless seperation during the day, your next etheric seperation will have a whole diferetn set of sensations.

Sure. But for me this is not a problem anymore, because, unfortunately those times seem to be over. Recently I'm thinking about inducing etheric projections again by using some old methods.

quote:I call it RTZ is because seemingly the transition of 3 seconds from 10 to 21, I continue to be aware of my surroundings (as per my awareness of spatial position, and the sensation of my second body lying on the bed later on. So seemingly, it seems to be the same bedroom.

Understood.

quote:

quote:I have to say it's a fascinating concept, something that could unite our different views. I've already thought about what if the blackness I'm experience after getting out of my dream bed is actually the 3D blackness!

Yes, excellent observation. Very likely that is the case, except that normally most people see the 3D blackness without a sense of body, and wait for an astral screen.

People need to be aware the fact that separation is possible in phasing by searching for thus creating the sense of a body.

quote:Oh No. You can't get more RTZ than me. I hardly know how to do anything else . 95% of all my OBEs have been in the RTZ, or what I seem to recognize it as. Phasing into the astral, or move from RTZ to astral is a major struggle for me.

I'm sorry to hear all that. Could it be that you just sleepwalking around and your wife just let you believe what you want?

quote:Of course, moving from focus 10 to 21 is also phasing I suppose, but I think anyone does that when experincing the typial OBE.

I doubt it. In this case exactly that aspect would be missing that's supposed to make the actual attempt to Phasing: the seamless process of decondensation. No doubt, we could see dream pictures in F10 and we could enter them, but I think, it's require only one mindsplit that would skip F12 entirely. Therefore the emanation cone couldn't be established. For me the F10 to F21 movement (if it is) is similar like seeing a window and my body at the other side and trying to find out how to inhabit that body.

Thanks for your thoughts and observations Tom, they were very useful.

Frank wrote:

quote:I've got no concrete evidence that would satisfy a court. Just the usual empirical stuff brought about over the years. Another thing, while I use it (because most other people do) I dislike the term astral projection as it's a tad too mystical for me.

I too don't like the word astral, but hey, that is what we got in a forum called "Astral Pulse." I have some evidences about etheric and RTZ projections but astral projection seems to be entirely out of my grip.

However I could imagine a method for proving it. Using the relativistic time distortion effect that seems its inherent part we could accomplish mental computations that otherwise would require great amount of real time and brain activity. The most appropriate task would be some table like iteration, a life game or something that needs drawing, thus the final result couldn't be computed without going through every steps. The entire session would be monitored by a simple EEG-machine to prove deep sleep.

quote:The only time I have to deal with my physical after that, is when I feel an all too familiar tugging which says it wants me back for some reason.

Could you describe that feeling, your initial situation and the waking up process? Also, I would be grateful if you would try the djin method I've described in this thread and tell me about your observations here or in PM.

[Mustardseed]

Hi All
I had a few questions that I hope you can help me with.
Over the last 1 years I have had 102 OBE experiences. They have varied from concious exits, in to the RTZ to Luzid dreams turning to exits and everything in between.

I have noticed that I am now able to induce a very deep trance in a relativly short time, but my Astral trips that used to in the beginning regularily be WILDs seem to have disappeared.

I often just enter trance and lie there, with hypnogic images floating by as I drift in and out of the images. How do I proceed, what stages am I in. I loved the astral trips but the relaxing maybe more needed. Is there a possibility that I passed the astral stages? or is the astral stages the last ones.

Regards

Mustardseed

[vannostrom]

Last night i lay in bed with my arms by my side palms down, cleared my mind and concentrated on breathing. Within 10 minutes i lost all feeling in my body and after that it felt like my body was bloated and huge and my head felt like it was really low in the middle of my body. After that i felt like i was rising and floating and after 5 minutes of this i floated back down and felt semi normal. I got bored and turned over and went to sleep. What focus level did i achieve?

[BlackTalon]

This is really interesting, never heard of these different phases before but they sound framilliar, well a few of the earlier ones. Someone mentioned a grid or pattern. I've only had that once but I don't know if it's the same thing cause I was barely into my meditation when i noticed a patern, kinda like a bmp that you would use to tile on a webpage, then i felt like i was moving forward and my eyes start twitching like mad...I definetly wasnt expecting that so I think i threw myself out by being excited..is this the same or something different?

It's nice to feel theres some kinda of stepping stone, i felt like i was running around blindly in meditation.

I've read in buddhism books that and like was said in here earlier not to concentrate on lights and swirls etc...would there be different types of meditations where you would only concentrate on these anomolies to a different end? I'm sure they must have some purpose, maybe some other path?

[upstream]

Mustardseed:

quote:I often just enter trance and lie there, with hypnogic images floating by as I drift in and out of the images. How do I proceed, what stages am I in. I loved the astral trips but the relaxing maybe more needed. Is there a possibility that I passed the astral stages?

It is possible. People tend to call all fleeting visual experiences they have in near sleep states as "hypnagogic pictures." In fact, most of those pictures are simply not conductive for OBEs.

For me, intent seems the key for ganuine and repeatable out of body experiences. Hypnagogic imageries are only tips of the iceberg. They could be results of different underlying processes. Intent is the real drive for having the proper hypnagogics.

Typical hypnagogic attacks most likely mark the brain's attempts to enter REM-sleep directly from waking. Those attempts are repeated in every 90-110 minutes, but wakefulness or greater priority of the need for deep sleep could prevent them. However, if someone is talented in WILD it could be done to enter directly into REM by the gentle manipulation of hypnagogic pictures.

Normally the sleep progress like this: waking..1.HG.2..3..4..3..2..REM..(HP..brief awakening..1.HG.)2..3..4..3..2..REM..(HP.brief awakening.1.HG..)2..3.., etc., where HG is hypnagogic-, HP is hypnopompic imagery and greater numbers mean progressively more deeper stages of sleep, states that will be missing from morning sleep and midday naps. Stages in paranthesis occur only if you intend to remember your dreams (or in the morning when you are already rested).


Vannostrom:

quote:Last night i lay in bed with my arms by my side palms down, cleared my mind and concentrated on breathing. Within 10 minutes i lost all feeling in my body and after that it felt like my body was bloated and huge and my head felt like it was really low in the middle of my body. After that i felt like i was rising and floating and after 5 minutes of this i floated back down and felt semi normal. I got bored and turned over and went to sleep. What focus level did i achieve?

Progression between focus levels occurs not along a single line (1D). Even 3D models (like Hobson's "AIM cube" that deals with sleep stages in 3D) is unfeasible to accurately locate focus levels.

I think, labelling our experiences has no practical value when we have nothing we could relate to, except some arbitrarily chosen numbers.

Maybe you were somewhere between F10 and F12 because no etheric separation of F10 nor instant sight of F12 were involved - maybe not.

You have done it, you own the experience. Now you could repeat it by remembering its feelings.


BlackTalon:

quote:Someone mentioned a grid or pattern. I've only had that once but I don't know if it's the same thing cause I was barely into my meditation when i noticed a patern, kinda like a bmp that you would use to tile on a webpage, then i felt like i was moving forward and my eyes start twitching like mad...I definetly wasnt expecting that so I think i threw myself out by being excited..is this the same or something different?

In F12 eyes are motionless so it seems you experienced the onset of REM. The great thing is that you was conscious.

quote:I've read in buddhism books that and like was said in here earlier not to concentrate on lights and swirls etc...would there be different types of meditations where you would only concentrate on these anomolies to a different end?

I think the fundamental difference between Phasing and OBE lies on the choice one make between concentrating either on the visuals or the body.

[funinfloating111]

hey, i was wondering what focus 15 was and how it felt, all i read is its were "time stands still" or something. I also read that its easy to get too once you get to focus 12, but i cant seem to get past focus 12. what do you do? when i try phasing first i relax my entire body, head to toe, then concentrate on my breathing while thinking of a "falling" effect on the exhale. i do this until i get a tingly wave that goes througout my body, and then there is great sensory reduction, sometimes my limbs feel like there curverd and bent. I think thats focus 10, correct me if I am wrong though, im here for help [] then i open all my chakras and get some energy flowing, it workse better in that state. then when i feel like im deep enough i do this little thing where i concentrate on my ears and brow chakra then kinda force my awareness down towards my feet. usually after this a really strange sensation happens were i feel really good and i feel like my consciousness is very miniscule, just a dot really. i think im in focus 12 but, again, please let me know if maybe this is only focus 10 or something. at this point my physical body feels absolutly enormouse and its like my conciousness sits in the very center of my head and theres "space" between my point of perspective and my eyelids. i can hold this for a really long time but if this is indeed focus 12 then how do i continue? i try the same ways i got to focus 12 but it doesnt work anymore. i read that once you get to focus 12 the rest will just come to you but i wait and nothing happens. perhaps im thinking too much? should i quite my thoughts a bit?