I'm just gonna cut and paste some posts from other threads here for now and we'll go from there. :)
From PR
QuoteI will distinguish between them right now.
Sleep Paralysis - sleep paralysis is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is known as REM atonia. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, but the body paralysis persists. This leaves the person fully conscious, but unable to move.
Trance - All brain waves are analogous to different types of trance in that they utilise brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.
Gamma waves
Gamma waves have the highest range of frequencies (around 40 Hz) and are involved in higher mental activity. They have also been detected during the process of awakening and during active rapid eye movement (REM) sleep.
Beta waves
Beta waves are the most common of the brain wave patterns that occur when awake. These occur during period of intense concentration, problem solving, and focused analysis. The frequency of beta waves is between 13–30 Hz (cycles per second).
Alpha waves
Alpha waves are any of the electrical waves from the parietal and occipital regions of the brain, having frequencies from 8 to 12 hertz (cycles per second). Some scientists consider the range 8–13 Hz and are most usual when we are mentally alert, calm and relaxed, or when day-dreaming. Alpha waves are a sign of relaxation, as they indicate a lack of sensory stimulation in a conscious person.
Theta waves
Theta waves occur when we are mentally drowsy and unfocused, during deep calmness, most daydreaming, relaxation or tranquility, as for example we make the transitions from drowsiness to sleep or from sleep to the waking state. The frequency of theta waves is between 4–7 Hz (cycles per second) though some researchers regard theta to be 5 to 8 cps.
In brain wave frequencies, theta is the frequency range where drowsiness, unconsciousness, dreaming states and deep tranquility happen. Most daydreaming occurs while in the theta range. It is normally a very positive mental state and prolonged states of the theta brain wave frequency while conscious can be extremely productive and a time of very meaningful/creative mental activity.
With practice, meditation can also lower a person's brain wave frequency to theta while allowing the meditator to remain conscious.
Delta waves
Delta waves occur primarily during deep sleep or states of unconsciousness. The frequency of delta waves is between 0.5–4 Hz (cycles per second).
Focus 10 - This is most closely related to what might be called a deep trance state, low alpha to theta waves. This is a state in which your awareness seems to have "separated" from your normal position of perception. Often this is experienced as your consciousness having shrunk to a point and perception seems to happen through the mind's eye or "third eye".
I'm not even going to talk about sleep paralysis anymore, it's a biological function and has nothing to do with AP. If it happens, great, use it. But DO NOT try to achieve it because it won't happen. You aren't supposed to experience sleep paralysis, it's supposed to be a function of your body to protect itself while you are in REM sleep. And, if you've studied sleep cycles, you aren't supposed to wake up naturally in REM. Sometimes it happens for whatever reason and if it does, use it.
Focus 10 is a level of trance. Trance is not some difficult thing to achieve. Zoning out is trance, daydreaming is trance, watching tv is a trance state, meditation is trance, being "in the zone" while playing a game (sports, video, whatever) is a trance, getting into the flow of a song while dancing is trance, hypnosis is a trance.
It's easy for us to categorize trance states into the brain wave frequency designations but in truth, trance describes a massive continuum of altered states of consciousness. Everything from being hyperactively awake to being passed out asleep. Trance is just a word we use to designate our waking consciousness from other altered states.
Again, Focus 10 is not trance, but a specific region on the continuum of trance states. The specific trance state needed to AP is variable. Each one of us has a different and infinitely unique physiological and psychological make-up which influences the particular trance state needed to AP/Phase or OBE/Etherically Project.
Bottom line, everyone is using words to mean different things. That is the nature of human communication. Each of us has a unique experience with different "words" and so our perception of them is biased toward our paradigm. We're arguing over the definition of words that are descriptions of SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES! Silly.
My concern is in confusion this kind of talk creates for new people. So, new people, do your best to read what everyone has to say, pick one that seems congruent with your experience, use it and build on it. Make your own definition of all these words.
out.
Again, from PR
QuoteOne more thing. When you project, it's not a completely aware mind that allows for exit (or whatever you frankies call a phase exit), it's a completely focused and engrossed mind. It's not just a numb body that allows the exit. Your mind needs to be in an appropriate state, which as you may have guessed is a unique experience. Each person will experience this state differently so there isn't much use in trying to describe it.
You all talk like all you need is a sleeping body which isn't true. You need mental discipline. You need to be able to control your involvement in the process. For some this means being almost asleep. For others this means visualizing with intense detail. It takes much more than just Mind Awake/Body Asleep. You need to turn your awareness inward if you want to phase or AP.
OBE, that's a different story imo. That's a dimensional shift.
From Cpt. Picard
QuoteIm not sure what you think you're doing, but all you did was repeat that paralysis has nothing to do with projection, then list different brain wave frequencies as evidence? Once again you are using rhetoric to try and distinguish between two different states which are really one. It dosen't matter whether you counciously go into trance or wake up in trance you are awake and no longer completely in REM sleep. As I've said, whether you enter trance counciously or wake up in it, it feels the same and the same things are accomplishable from there. As for your deffinition of trance, I'll agree with that somewhat, its just that councious projection is not possible from any of those states you listed, no body asleep-mind awake, no councious exit.
You are also getting the totoally wrong impression, I could not have trained myself to counciously project had I not possessed some mental disicpline. Much in the same way when a random person falls into paralysis, they dont project as they dont know what the state can be utilized for. Everything you guys have said about the mind and what it should be focussing on is essentially correct, but to say sleep paralysis is not needed at all or to say it is counterproductive, is nothing but a flat-out lie.
And finally from CFTraveler
QuoteI'm afraid not- they are different brainstates and have different brainwaves associated with them- deep trance is not on the same consciousness scale as sleep paralysis, as PR tried to explain- and the difference is night and day, mainly because in trance you are lucid and when you wake up paralyzed you're not.
And that is the difference- that's why I like to call one 'trance' or 'waking paralysis', and the other 'sleep paralysis'- and sleep paralysis is not good for projecting, unless you have managed to maintain lucidity, and fight the visceral fear that is so characteristic of this state. And then, you have to work to get into the right focus, even while in sp.
Sorry to go back to this Xanth.
I'll just put my post on the next post. :)
PR and I were talking about this earlier today.
I was thinking about it further after the fact.
Brainwaves mean not too much to me
I connect them all by their potential 'end result'.
To me, that end result is: Can I phase or project from that state?
So to me, based upon *my* criteria... they're the same. :)
HOWEVER, everyone keeps talking about brainwaves and such...
Does anyone have any to actually post to back up their claims? ;)
~Ryan :)
LOL Xanth, why did you start a new thread, that comment could have easily been used on the previous one lol :wink: Anyways, whether you want to call it sleep paralysis, waking paralysis, trance state or F10, this is a good state to strive to get into, if you want a genuine OBE as opposed to a lucid dream (not that theres really a big difference). I also accidently found myself in paralysis one day about 7 years ago. After this I researched it and discovered the art of astral projection, since then I can enter the trance state fairly easily, although I have trouble explaining to people how this is done. Alot of it has to do with intent and maintaining awareness in my opinion, and of course just practicing to figure out what methods get you into paralysis the easiest.
Well I'd like to leave one comment aswell.
It's just sad to see astralpulse becoming like astralsociety.us :oops:
I'm sorry Ryan, I don't keep an electroencephalogram recorder next to my bed for this purpose.
I know this information because I've been studying brain wave patterns and their associated states of consciousness as well as sleep cycles for years in psych classes.
I thought it was common knowledge that your brainwave output slows when you go to sleep and these different ranges of brainwave frequency cycles have been measured and labeled. I mean, it's exactly the same as looking at a red light and knowing that the wave pattern of that electromagnetic energy is slower than the frequency pattern of a violet light.
In the end, you are right in some regard. It is essentially useless to bring this knowledge to projection/phasing work because we don't have any mechanism for biofeedback in our homes (ie - an EEG to show us our changing brainwave patterns as we induce deeper trance). However, knowing these designations can serve as signposts along the way to the state of mind/body needed for an individual (i chose that word intentionally) to successfully project/phase. If you read up on the associated physical sensations to their respective trance state you can identify them as you move through them. This may be frivolous, but for some it may be the lynch pin to identifying what they need to do next.
Capt. Picard, it is impossible for me to harbor any negative feelings toward your misunderstanding of what i'm trying to say because you're capt. picard and i love star trek. That aside, allow me to re-post the pertinent lines:
Trance - All brain waves are analogous to different types of trance in that they utilise brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.
different trance states (associated with different frequencies of brainwave output) utilize brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.
The word trance describes numerous altered states of consciousness, not just one. I think I see the problem though, which I addressed above and provided my rebuttal for. And I will no longer argue on that point because projection is a unique process and the way you define your experience is perfectly true, natural and necessary.
As for sleep paralysis, this is getting a bit tedious. Sleep paralysis is REM atonia when you awaken during it. Sleep paralysis technically describes a sleep disorder, often associated with narcolepsy (people go from waking consciousness to REM sleep suddenly and often experience sleep paralysis) and sleep apnea (when you stop breathing in your sleep which can awaken you from REM sleep), where you wake up during a REM cycle and the atonia is still present. THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. REM atonia is a function of the body to protect itself during REM sleep, your awareness is not meant to return during this process. The reason you are often not lucid (even though you have usually regained full awareness) is because you are coming out of a sleep state where your mind is most active. There are often hypnagogic hallucinations associated with sleep paralysis which make it difficult to really determine whether one is awake or asleep and by the time you do figure it out the episode is over. I mean you're coming out of a dream state, your mind still thinks its in the dream state for a short time and it is confused. This can cause intense panic which IS counterproductive to projection/phasing.
What I'm trying to express is that trying to induce sleep paralysis IS NOT POSSIBLE. It is something that happens by mistake and can only happen when one is abruptly awakened from REM sleep. When we project we are not inducing sleep paralysis. We lose awareness of our body. This is a result of slowing brainwave frequencies (ie a trance state). It is exactly the same thing that happens when we are moving from waking consciousness to sleep every night. Normally when we go to sleep we allow our consciousness to drift down into "unconsciousness" or "unawareness". But, for us projectors/phasers, we teach ourselves how to maintain awareness to some degree during this process (the conscious exit people do anyway). Thereby we achieve a deep trance state or altered state of consciousness that is conducive to the projection of consciousness.
:roll: It is not I who is misunderstanding anything, it is you who does not know how to argue logically and prove your points using rational arguments and by providing some sort of evidence to back up your claims. Anyways, whether you want to make these useless distinctions or not, Mind awake-body asleep is the state new projectors should be striving for. Whether you wake up in this state, or induce it through "trance", this state is ideal for projection, and anyone telling you otherwise is either spreading disinformation or dosen't know what theyre talking about.
Well, I think we've exhausted our argument.
I am not offended, but I don't think you should say that I (or anyone else) is intentionally spreading disinformation or ignorant. I don't have as much projection experience as some people here but I know a lot about neurology and metaphysics. I do have a lot of experience in trance states though and i have personally distinguished between different levels of trance. I would not intentionally misinform novice projectors nor would I consider myself ignorant on the subject.
However, I still disagree with the mind awake/body asleep model, but that's another subject.
Quote from: personalreality on April 24, 2010, 16:06:20
Well, I think we've exhausted our argument.
In my opinion that would be correct.
I mean, it's one thing to sit here and say that all the states have differing brainwaves... but it's another entirely to provide proof to that.
Instead, as I said, I prefer to look at the potential end result of the state instead of the state itself.
Quote from: personalreality on April 24, 2010, 16:06:20
I don't have as much projection experience as some people here but I know a lot about neurology and metaphysics.
Well that was about all I needed to hear, perhaps you should learn how to project yourself before you start telling beginners that the mind awake-body asleep model is wrong (which it isn't). There is a big difference between studying something and having years of actual experience with something. I feel as though I should also point out, that saying sleep paralysis and trance are different is one thing, but to say you don't agree with the mind awake-body asleep model at all? If you can still have movement in your physical body while in "deep trance", then you can't counciously project. Have fun lucid dreaming I guess...
done
Quote from: cpt. picard on April 24, 2010, 17:29:28
If you can still have movement in your physical body while in "deep trance", then you can't counciously project. Have fun lucid dreaming I guess...
Is that a statement? I'm just curious.
One of my hypothesis' is that it's not the case! :)
I'm becoming considerably convinced that one doesn't have to be physically paralyzed to shift their conscious awareness. One merely has to shift their awareness away from this particular focus. I've done this, albeit only with the imagination thing... if you want to know details, I was actually in the bathroom at the time. ROFL I won't go into anymore detail than that. LOL
Now, obviously, I can't prove this as of yet. But, my recent practices with Phasing and using the "daydream" method, that's the particular phenomenon that I've come across.
In the very least, it's given me some food for thought.
~Ryan :)
I recommend researching magickal practice, including things like shamanic journeying and other types of "vision experiences". IMO these journeys take place in the same place as astral projection. The difference is just the degree of awareness you have while visiting. AP would be considered full awareness of this place and very little to no awareness of the physical. A visualization journey (which is used in magickal practice all the time to create an Astral Temple from which to work), for example, leaves the traveler partially aware of the physical.
For many of these journeys you do not need to be oblivious of your body.
In AP, if you have a mastery of focus you can turn your awareness completely away from the body without inducing some kind of physical sleep state. Relaxation is helpful because it's harder to ignore tense muscles. But if you have your skill developed well enough, you have the personal power of mind to turn your awareness inward almost on command. I have met and validated people that can do this. I interact with a hypnotist at work from time to time who I have watched induce deep "trance" within seconds, yes seconds. He even did a hypnotism workshop where he had his own EEG and we watched his brainwave frequency jump from what looked like mid-range beta to mid-range theta in 30 seconds. He went from standing in normal awareness to sitting in a chair (with no neck support) in deep trance in less than a minute. There is no way he put his body to sleep that fast, yet I watched him induce a deep trance.
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2010, 18:58:45
Is that a statement? I'm just curious.
One of my hypothesis' is that it's not the case! :)
I'm becoming considerably convinced that one doesn't have to be physically paralyzed to shift their conscious awareness. One merely has to shift their awareness away from this particular focus. I've done this, albeit only with the imagination thing... if you want to know details, I was actually in the bathroom at the time. ROFL I won't go into anymore detail than that. LOL
Now, obviously, I can't prove this as of yet. But, my recent practices with Phasing and using the "daydream" method, that's the particular phenomenon that I've come across.
In the very least, it's given me some food for thought.
~Ryan :)
I can project without being paralyzed, but it has taken me around 10 years of conscious projecting to be able to. So I would say, if you're starting out, get to the point of being completely paralyzed, but realize that with practice you can project without being paralyzed. And, it's not as fun either.
I have to add (because I answered a question in the other thread) that you don't need a eeg to know what state you're in, and it's not that hard to figure it out- if you're on your way to becoming unconscious, you're reaching trance- and if you've been sleeping and wake up paralyzed, you're in sleep paralysis. That's as simple as it gets.
And I know most of you know me enough to know I've been spontaneously projecting for approximately 40 years (I'm 52 and my first remembered projection was as a child) and learned to project consciously and on purpose around ten years ago. When you do it long enough you learn to recognize how your states feel.
Cheers, all.
word
Well that is your opinion, whether I wake up in paralysis or induce it, it feels the same to me and I can project from both. Anyways, I wouldn't mind hearing more about this projection without paralysis. I have done sort of a "weak" projection without paralysis, but I usually associate it more with remote viewing the astral as opposed to actually being in the astral. So if you don't mind, would anyone care to elaborate on their non-paralysis projections?
i have never projected from a paralyzed state.
i have only been successfully consciously exiting for a couple months, but my projections aren't weak, though I do lack some control of where I can go. I don't have enough personal power to fully control my environment, yet. By that I mean that my mind kind of moves me on it's own. Maybe it's more appropriate to call it my subconscious.
Anyway, my projections are still very vivid and I have hyper-awareness, clearer than when I'm physically awake.
My body does not become paralyzed though. My awareness becomes very focused on "the other side" and awareness of my body fades into the background, but it's still easy to move it if I shift my awareness back.
I've done both. I'm not even sure what the argument is here. lol
One of my favorite stories is when I was in paralysis and I asked for help, and someone grabbed both my ankles and started to pull. Scared me for a good month after that. As a rule though, I do not like finding myself paralyzed. No matter how many times I've done it, the fear is always at the highest level possible. I think people just need to find what works for them and go with it. I really don't think there are any set rules that needs to be followed, it's a matter of the person being as comfortable and at ease with what they are doing in order for things to click and work for them.
you're right.
the argument is a little more complex than this, but basically I say that sleep paralysis is not the same thing as inducing a feeling of your body not being there. Sleep paralysis is technically a sleep disorder because you're not supposed to wake up during it. When you induce "sleep paralysis" you're not actually inducing sleep paralysis, you're inducing a state of dissociation from your body. (and i use the word dissociation specifically in reference to the body, not in any sort of mental pathological sense)
but, this AP thing is a very subjective experience from beginning to end, so whatever you call what you do is basically irrelevant, so this argument was basically useless in many regards.
Ahhhh.. I see what you mean now.
Inducing a paralysis episode to you is just a deep meditation. I would agree the two are different to me because of the fear and not being able to break free of it easily. And yeah, I agree this argument really wasn't useful except for the exchange of the energies. :-D
Quote from: Naykid on April 26, 2010, 13:55:22
I would agree the two are different to me because of the fear and not being able to break free of it easily.
I like how you make that distinction.
Thanks. I'm pretty simple, straight to the point and try to say as little as possible. :lol:
I do much more meditation sitting up than I do laying down and making "AP" attempts. It's very normal for me like this to have all kinds of experiences without my body going to sleep. I tend not to be aware of my physical body (sometimes I am), but it's awake and sitting up. I would say a "deep trance". This is from 14 years of sitting meditation too.
Also, the few OBE's I've had where I felt the most freedom and had the most control, I could also feel my physical body in bed the whole time, like a dual consciousness. It's not confusing like you think it would be. Having that connection is comforting for me during an OBE. I wish I could do that all the time.
People who say that they can project without SP, are you saying that you can project wide awake? You have full control of your physical body, simultaneously? Because if you had no control, your body would act out everything you're doing in your astral realm or wherever it is that you think you are.
Quote from: Velvet V. on April 27, 2010, 16:30:19
People who say that they can project without SP, are you saying that you can project wide awake? You have full control of your physical body, simultaneously? Because if you had no control, your body would act out everything you're doing in your astral realm or wherever it is that you think you are.
I have an exercise for you. Sit there and "think" about moving your arm. Think about it... think as hard as you can.
It doesn't move. It only moves because you do more than just "think" about it.
I believe this is the philosophy behind projecting anywhere/anytime.
This is simply my theory. :)
I fail to understand what you're saying. Thinking or daydreaming is certainly not enough to project. It's not even enough to put you into trance on its own.
Edit: It's possible to have visionary experiences wide awake, but I meant full projection only.
Quote from: Velvet V. on April 27, 2010, 16:56:56
I fail to understand what you're saying. Thinking or daydreaming is certainly not enough to project. It's not even enough to put you into trance on its own.
Edit: It's possible to have visionary experiences wide awake, but I meant full projection only.
It's only my theory, but I believe that it is. :)
We already know that, thanks to Frank, we can change our
focus of awareness separate from our
area of awareness.
~Ryan :)
i don't get the difference between focus of awareness and area of awareness.
do you know which frank posts this is in?
is there any organization to your pdf? I haven't really looked at it yet.
could you tell me where to look in the pdf or am i just gonna have to read it?
It amazes me to see the discussions that go on here. All this talk does is complicate a rather simple issue. Its all about semantics here for Gadz Sake. Its just like reading a 16th century metaphysical book. Tells you the same darn thing as a book written yesterday. Its just the words used that make it nearly incomprehensible to anyone unfamiliar. Makes me think of a recent post of mine where I got chastised for using the word "meditation" and then allowing myself to get huffy when I was disagreed with. Jeez.
I'm sorry but you can project from any number of states- "trance", "meditation", sleep "paralysis", "lucid" dreams or just plain old dreaming. The reality of what you experience depends on the clarity of your focus. If I wake from dreaming and detect paralysis - I can project. If I enter a trance through meditation and lose focus of my physical body - I can project. If I am lucid dreaming - I can project (but usually don't cuz I enjoy lucid dreaming too much). In all of these cases the point of projection is brought on by increasing the focus of awareness and losing of focus on the physical (sensation and such).
Arguing about "sleep paralysis" as a means of projecting is weird. Sleep paralysis, as stated earlier, is simply a side effect of the activation of the amygdala during a dream state. If you can consciously paralyze yourself then you are weird and I would want you to see a neurologist. I use the word "weird" because I don't know why anyone would want that.
Could someone tell me what the heck "brainwaves" have to do with understanding trance states. I know what brainwaves are but I don't tell myself "Ah, there I go, my theta is up and my beta is down, better get to work on my delta's".
I can see why so many cannot project. Awful lot of confusing stuff goes on here.
there are often physiological sensations associated with changes in brainwave states.
so if i learned what was associated with each brainwave state (trance state) i can identify it as i'm moving through them and it can help to know what to do next.
but it's ultimately irrelevant.
I don't where you've been but since I first started studying projection, the concept of entering a trance or SP or whatever you wish to call it, has been called "mind awake-body asleep" for a very long time, if you don't project from paralysis, fine, but saying inducing paralysis is a sign of a neurological disorder? You don't know what you're talking about...
Psilbus wrote:QuoteIt amazes me to see the discussions that go on here. All this talk does is complicate a rather simple issue. Its all about semantics here for Gadz Sake. Its just like reading a 16th century metaphysical book. Tells you the same darn thing as a book written yesterday. Its just the words used that make it nearly incomprehensible to anyone unfamiliar. Makes me think of a recent post of mine where I got chastised for using the word "meditation" and then allowing myself to get huffy when I was disagreed with. Jeez.
... Sleep paralysis, as stated earlier, is simply a side effect of the activation of the amygdala during a dream state. If you can consciously paralyze yourself then you are weird and I would want you to see a neurologist. I use the word "weird" because I don't know why anyone would want that.
Quote from: cpt. picard on April 28, 2010, 15:06:26
... saying inducing paralysis is a sign of a neurological disorder? You don't know what you're talking about...
Psilbus, I think CP's reply answered your question- it's because of those kinds of answers which prompts my continued presence in this thread, although not for long....
Later.
I don't see what's wrong with my "answer" nor do I see Psilbus asking any questions in his post. If you guys say you project without paralysis, fine, I believe you and accept your methods, but if you guys are gonna start generalizing now and trying to say that inducing paralysis is a sign of neurological problems, that I'm gonna call you on your bull once again. "Mind awake-body asleep" methods have been around forever and appear extensively in astral projection literature, Im just trying to bring that to people's attention before they make such unwarranted statements.
cpt. picard and personalreality -
LOL. All I was saying is that if you can induce paralysis you are WEIRD. It is completely unnecessary to induce PARALYSIS. You induce a trance or dream or meditative state and the paralysis is an end result of the reaction of the biological brain to the "body asleep/mind awake" phenomenon. Jeez. It's a biological process, not a spiritual one. Sorry if I'm so difficult to understand. Form your own opinion and go with that then. I'm talking about researched phenomenon, just like the "brainwave" stuff you were knowledgeable about. If you choose to follow your own hypothesis without researching further then enjoy your knowledge and call me an idiot. I think you're cool though cuz your here and I would like more than disagreement - discussion perhaps?
Perhaps you are right, I've just never projected without paralysis being one of the side effects, and what you just said WAS inducing paralysis. If you induce it through trance or meditation whatever, you are still inducing paralysis, and there is nothing weird about that, as I said, the majority of literature regarding AP describes the mind awake body asleep state as being ample for projection, so I fail to see what is weird about it all.
I only meant weird in the nicest sense. Once again, if it works for you that is great. Success is in the outcome. I would hate to instruct someone to seek paralysis though. I would warn them however that it is a potential side effect which can be disheartening. I just made a post prior to this one, in fact, where I mentioned taking notice of paralysis and took advantage of it. It can be a good signpost of the state your body is in.
Enjoy the day!
YOU CAN NOT INDUCE PARALYSIS
:-D
lol
silly humans.
Quote from: personalreality on April 29, 2010, 11:27:37
YOU CAN NOT INDUCE PARALYSIS
:-D
lol
silly humans.
This is correct.
You can induce Trance or Focus 10...
Sleep Paralysis is an abnormal function that can only happen during natural sleep.
personalreality, you stupid, fool.
thinkin you know everything.
so what, you're a psych student.
so what, you study altered states and sleep states in the university.
so what, your career path is one of research in the field of human consciousness.
you don't know nothin
you gettin on my nerves fool.
PR is officially nuts. ;)
i really am getting on my nerves though
Quote from: personalreality on April 29, 2010, 12:06:41
personalreality, you stupid, fool.
thinkin you know everything.
so what, you're a psych student.
so what, you study altered states and sleep states in the university.
so what, your career path is one of research in the field of human consciousness.
you don't know nothin
you gettin on my nerves fool.
Well I like you anyway.
Most of the time, anyway.
:wink:
I'm really just disguising my quest for my 4th star as randomness.
Thinking that if it's odd enough, people won't realize that I'm just randomly posting.
:wink:
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2010, 18:58:45
I'm becoming considerably convinced that one doesn't have to be physically paralyzed to shift their conscious awareness. One merely has to shift their awareness away from this particular focus. I've done this, albeit only with the imagination thing... if you want to know details, I was actually in the bathroom at the time. ROFL I won't go into anymore detail than that. LOL
Actually you are right. You don't absolutely need to have sleep paralysis to project, that is a misinformation. I can for example project in my "Body of Light" and move my physical body if I want to (it requires effort, but it is feasible). While the body must be asleep, the amount of this "sleep" can vary a lot.
Quote from: cpt. picard on April 28, 2010, 15:54:21
"Mind awake-body asleep" methods have been around forever and appear extensively in astral projection literature, Im just trying to bring that to people's attention before they make such unwarranted statements.
Actually not. It is only lately that this concept has been used and "methods" provided to go with it. Authors of before were smarter, in fact. Usually trying to trigger this particualr state for beginners only hinders their efforts (in the majority of cases). It is only lately that authors started to trying to explain "methods" that requires first this state to being brought because they tried to explain what they passed through and to let others understand the same without willingly they imposed something that actually prevents success in most cases.
Think about it, if you want to switch focus from the physical body do you think the best way is focus on it trying to making it going to sleep? I know that people sometimes wants to be intricate, but it is a little nonsensical.
As I said before often it is better to say less to achieve more. Ancient authors never talked about "mind awake/body asleep" (while knowing it very well) because trying to forcing the state often brings only a focus to the physical body, and that's the wrong way to do it at beginning.
The BoL, Skrying in the Spirit Vision, Rising the Planes, etc. are all ancient methods that makes no reference whatsoever to the body asleep/mind awake state. It is difficult to tranfer the consciousness away from the physical body if what you have done till then is only to focus on the same. Or you can bring on the state quite easily for yourself fast, or it is better to discard the same altogheter, also because it comes naturally if you just focus your consciousness away from it.
Quote from: Selea on May 19, 2010, 06:36:15
Actually you are right. You don't absolutely need to have sleep paralysis to project, that is a misinformation. I can for example project in my "Body of Light" and move my physical body if I want to (it requires effort, but it is feasible). While the body must be asleep, the amount of this "sleep" can vary a lot.
It's not misinformation as much as generalization. Most people that are starting out find it almost impossible if they're not paralyzed (or at least disassociated from their bodies.) With practice and getting used to the conditions comes projecting without paralysis- but it's not easy.
Amazing, this discussion of "paralysis" continues. In what literature and where is there any statement that paralysis is a normal state PRIOR to projection. Are we saying "body asleep" is "paralysis"?
I mean this seriously cuz I don't get this conversation at all. All we are talking about is a "trance" state. That is what a trance state is, "mind awake-body asleep". Why can' we just say "trance state" instead of "mind awake-body asleep" or "paralysis". All we gotta do is FOCUS on the MIND and NOT FOCUS on the BODY.
Imagine telling someone who has never projected, never read of it, "yeah, dude, first you gotta get yourself paralyzed". I mean cummon. There is better lingo than that. "SLEEP paralysis" IS a term which is applicable but it describes something totally different, a whole different "biological" process. Yes you can project from "sleep paralysis" but the fact that you are even aware of sleep paralysis in the first place is because your brain has been in a dream state, usually REM, and you have awakened to that paralysis. It is NOT a required step prior to projection. This is not opinion. I believe this to be fact.
Notice I did not use the word "weird" anywhere in my post. Ooops I guess I did after all. :roll:
You have read my multiple posts about it, so you know I agree- however, I'm being general- I didn't say 'sleep paralysis', I said 'paralyzed' or 'disassociated'.
Cheers.
CFTraveler - Yes, cheers. I was not referring to your comment. I was questioning the entire thread. Xanth initiated this thread by posting a relevant glossary from PR. I constantly see discussion which amounts to nothing but semantics. That is time wasted when these are precious moments for those on the cusp. I think if we both review posts you will see we are very much eye to eye. I do not wish to pretend to be more knowledgeable than another so I will defer from further comment. I do feel my comments were succinct however though not directed toward you. I suppose cpt. picard and selea were where my comments aimed. Sorry or not, I look forward to further discussion of this issue. It is important to those who have not progressed beyond the desire.
Enjoy!
Quote from: Psilibus on May 19, 2010, 21:23:43
CFTraveler - Yes, cheers. I was not referring to your comment. I was questioning the entire thread. Xanth initiated this thread by posting a relevant glossary from PR. I constantly see discussion which amounts to nothing but semantics. That is time wasted when these are precious moments for those on the cusp. I think if we both review posts you will see we are very much eye to eye. I do not wish to pretend to be more knowledgeable than another so I will defer from further comment. I do feel my comments were succinct however though not directed toward you. I suppose cpt. picard and selea were where my comments aimed. Sorry or not, I look forward to further discussion of this issue. It is important to those who have not progressed beyond the desire.
Enjoy!
It would definitely be a bonus if we could come up with a language we all agreed upon. LoL
~Ryan :)
make a glossary that is agreed upon have it stickied and convert anyone who dares not abide by it :-P, such will be a step in the right direction of progression, unfortunately
I have my lingo, you have yours, I cant tell the difference between "trance" and paralysis, so I call it "sleep paralysis", good luck converting me to the new lingo :wink:
i've had a revelation, i agree with the captain.
Quote from: CFTraveler on May 19, 2010, 09:37:06
It's not misinformation as much as generalization. Most people that are starting out find it almost impossible if they're not paralyzed (or at least disassociated from their bodies.) With practice and getting used to the conditions comes projecting without paralysis- but it's not easy.
However, also in this case, the obstacle is self-imposed by the actual "method" used. If other means are used the paralysis is neither acknowledged and in many cases neither needed, also at beginning. There are many ways to obtain what is called an OBE or AP, and the sad truth is that many times beginners actually reading certain things create self induced obstacles and impositions.
This is one of those. What's worse is that actually trying to bringing on a "paralysis" is much more difficult than actually "leaving the body" in itself.
Quote from: Selea on May 20, 2010, 06:51:21
However, also in this case, the obstacle is self-imposed by the actual "method" used. If other means are used the paralysis is neither acknowledged and in many cases neither needed, also at beginning. There are many ways to obtain what is called an OBE or AP, and the sad truth is that many times beginners actually reading certain things create self induced obstacles and impositions.
This is one of those. What's worse is that actually trying to bringing on a "paralysis" is much more difficult than actually "leaving the body" in itself.
Yesssss!
My attempted point exactly. Are these forums more for those of attainment or those who are seeking? Both, I am sure but who stands to extract the most benefit?
Those who have projected dozens of times would easily suffice with their own terminology. Someone who tries dozens of times unsuccessfully might benefit from clarity. While I can understand PR's revelation I still feel somewhat mutinous.
Oh well.
Quote from: Psilibus on May 20, 2010, 08:39:36
Yesssss!
My attempted point exactly. Are these forums more for those of attainment or those who are seeking? Both, I am sure but who stands to extract the most benefit?
Those who have projected dozens of times would easily suffice with their own terminology. Someone who tries dozens of times unsuccessfully might benefit from clarity. While I can understand PR's revelation I still feel somewhat mutinous.
Oh well.
These forums are here, in my opinion, for the beginner.
As I said, while it would be helpful to have a common vernacular to work from... as the Capt pointed out, it wouldn't be very feasible.
We'll just have to keep trying to fit each others paradigms in with others until that day comes about.
~Ryan :)
To me paralasys happens when I'm asleep and attacked by evil forces, it's rare though.
i was being sarcastic
Quote from: Everlasting on May 20, 2010, 10:39:13
To me paralasys happens when I'm asleep and attacked by evil forces, it's rare though.
"Attacked by evil forces"?
Whoever told you that Sleep Paralysis is from being attacked?
While you're not actually supposed to consciously experience the paralysis that comes with sleeping... it's nothing more than that. It's a function of sleep so we don't act out our dreams.
It's just you consciously experiencing that paralysis before it's had a chance to dissipate... nothing is attacking you. Guaranteed. :)
Quote from: personalreality on May 20, 2010, 11:57:44
i was being sarcastic
Dude!
You know that sarcasm doesn't come across in text very well.
Although, the misunderstandings that erupt due to them are quite entertaining to witness. :)
~Ryan
Well, despite what people choose to believe, I believe in the "trance state" you are still paralyzed, despite what you want to call this state. It is obvious that paralysis is required for projection, as your body would act in the manner of your astral body and wake you up, like the body's paralysis as a natural protection from movement during dreams, it is required to shut your body off for projections as well. It is paralysis despite what people say.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 21, 2010, 02:04:45
Well, despite what people choose to believe, I believe in the "trance state" you are still paralyzed, despite what you want to call this state. It is obvious that paralysis is required for projection, as your body would act in the manner of your astral body and wake you up, like the body's paralysis as a natural protection from movement during dreams, it is required to shut your body off for projections as well. It is paralysis despite what people say.
You are wrong. You are so convinced that you can only "project" if the body is in a paralysis state that you cannot do it elsewhere. However I understand that's not your fault.
I tell you a little secret: the body needs only to be asleep for us adults because we have trained our consciousness to abide in the physical body only for a lifetime and the fact that it can abide somewhere else while "awake" is too beyond our doubts to be achievable (in reality with intensive training it can be done, but it requires years and years of deconstruction). A little child doesn't need all these lies. He can focus elsewhere in a moment, given the motivation to do so instead of being talked down.
This is our damnation for the time being. Retrieve our status as newborns again, deconstructing all external impositions. Paralysis needed to transfer the consciousness is one of them, believe it or not.
Still feeling mutinous, Captain!
I am not paralyzed when I purposefully project. My wife has heard me talk and seen me make small gestures when I am OBE. She said it freaked her out. Said my voice sounded like I was under water...?
If I awaken from a dream and notice sleep paralysis I can use the opportunity to project and have done that many times. I am only saying I do not pursue paralysis as an accompaniment or precursor to an OBE.
Are you guys literally incapable of comprehending what Im saying? You talk in your projections just as its possible to talk in your sleep uncounciously, notice you say you "wake up" in paralysis, this is because your are paralyzed during the projection, obviously. You guys are gonna actually have to provide some evidence before you exclaim that I am flat out wrong. You honestly think talking and moving slightly is evidence? You do that while your alseep normally too! So, just as Selea said, I will also say, you are both wrong, and then provide no additional evidence except my opinions to back it up. Good day.
Nobody is wrong guys...
This is stuff that's very hard, if not impossible, to prove.
So until someone provides proof beyond, personal experience, nobody can claim facts.
~Ryan :)
Thank you Xanth. Im getting tired of people saying Im wrong for giving my opinion, yet backing up their claims with nothing but their opinion? :roll: I guess some people dont understand logical argumentation.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 21, 2010, 15:31:40
Thank you Xanth. Im getting tired of people saying Im wrong for giving my opinion, yet backing up their claims with nothing but their opinion? :roll: I guess some people dont understand logical argumentation.
You're welcome. :)
There's nothing more frustrating then having quotes taken out of context and other crap like that.
~Ryan
Captain, I did not say you were wrong. I think you are right because it works for you. Your language works for you. I am happy for you and your thoughts here. I appreciate what you have to say. I am sure it will benefit someone. I only have issues with the language ALL use, including myself. That is my only point. ALL of my points have been utterly logical.
No one should be "frustrated". I'm not. I doubt any of you others are either. The only frustrated ones are people who are struggling with the process and wade through countless terms and techniques which boil down to basically the same friggin thing.
At least we are all speakin da ingles here. :-)
Mas o menos.
:lol:
i have had sleep paralysis or hypnagogic dreams for my entire life. their have been a few times when i have tried to stay in that state. because i am entirely aware of whats going on, i sometimes think that i can be in control of the situation. but my experience with attempting to control it has been pretty bad. i remember a time when i was able to get my movement back and it was as thought i was totally awake, but i kept seeing shadows running around like people trying to scatter.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 21, 2010, 15:14:37
Are you guys literally incapable of comprehending what Im saying? You talk in your projections just as its possible to talk in your sleep uncounciously, notice you say you "wake up" in paralysis, this is because your are paralyzed during the projection, obviously. You guys are gonna actually have to provide some evidence before you exclaim that I am flat out wrong. You honestly think talking and moving slightly is evidence? You do that while your alseep normally too! So, just as Selea said, I will also say, you are both wrong, and then provide no additional evidence except my opinions to back it up. Good day.
I already told you why you are wrong. A child can do what I said easily given the opportunity to do so. I don't want to talk about personal experiences because they can or cannot mean anything at all for you, but what I'm saying you can acknowledge for yourself if you are interested in it.
Then tell me, do you consider walking also a "paralysis" case? Because I know a person that can "project" while walking for example. As for talking and moving slightly in a real "paralysis" you cannot move, usually. If you talk about "paralysis" it's not the same as talking about trance (or at last not in all "forms" of trance) for example. You are mixing a bit terms, it seems.
Anyway, if you talk expressedly about "trance" (instead of full paralysis) I already told you that a little child can "project" easily in a just "daydream" focus of mind. There are many people that can do the same after years of training. "Projecting" while in a totally normal status is difficult to achieve for people that train themselves in these things, because their approach is different. However those that know already how to do it can do the same. There are many examples of these sorts of people: Alfredo Roi, Austin Osman Spare, the late Swedenborg, etc.
As I said there are various ways to do an OBE or AP, and various degrees of the same. Also "normal" people can sometimes do what is called "remote viewing" in a completely "normal" state of consciousness.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 21, 2010, 15:31:40
Thank you Xanth. Im getting tired of people saying Im wrong for giving my opinion, yet backing up their claims with nothing but their opinion? :roll: I guess some people dont understand logical argumentation.
That was not my opinion. I gave you a "proof" of the fact. It is only that you decided to discard what you simply didn't like.
While these "things" have many things of a subjective nature, there are also objective matters that pertains to them. This is one of them. There are people that have the "gift" of being able to tranfer the consciousness in other "forms". These people do things differently from people that learned how to do it. The difference in this case is that they can do it either while in an "awake" status.
You can naturally believe what I say or not, however at last consider that maybe what you think possible or not is a self-imposition.
Quote from: Selea on May 22, 2010, 06:18:59
While these "things" have many things of a subjective nature, there are also objective matters that pertains to them. This is one of them. There are people that have the "gift" of being able to tranfer the consciousness in other "forms". These people do things differently from people that learned how to do it. The difference in this case is that they can do it either while in an "awake" status.
this is very self limiting, I guess we should all give up projecting because we'll never be as good as someone who has a gift. /end Astralpulse forum, I'll let adrian know we have to shut it down now, no one post anymore unless you have a gift because you're of a lower origin to Selea. This is the stupidest idea I've ever seen you communicate. This forum is not here so you can put ideas in people's heads that they won't amount to anything.
happy birthday sola`!!!
Here's the gift!!!
*THE gift*
\o/
YAY!
Quote from: sola~ on May 22, 2010, 08:06:23
this is very self limiting, I guess we should all give up projecting because we'll never be as good as someone who has a gift. /end Astralpulse forum, I'll let adrian know we have to shut it down now, no one post anymore unless you have a gift because you're of a lower origin to Selea. This is the stupidest idea I've ever seen you communicate. This forum is not here so you can put ideas in people's heads that they won't amount to anything.
I love sarcasm! :-D And I do agree with you, but let's not make this into something that doesn't need to be. I think for the most part the folks that are here have an idea of what's going on. Perhaps Selea feels if we don't agree it makes her experiences less.... I don't know, but I do know that arguing over semantics is silly at this point.
For the record, I have projected from sleep paralysis several times, but I've never been able to induce sleep paralysis...never really thought of doing so. I think personal experience is a large part of how we learn. I can read a book on how to fly a plane a hundred times, or have someone tell me how to fly a plane, but that doesn't mean, I know how to fly a plane all of a sudden. :-)
You know I was gonna rip ya a new one Selea (verbally), but the fact that you think you have proved anything by stating your opinions is laughable, and (trying not to be offensive) demonstrates a pretty feeble and closed minded attitude. I pity you, and nothing more needs to be said, you clearly do not understand simple logical argumentation. All you have stated is your opinion, if you honestly cant tell the difference between that and actual evidence based facts, then as I said, I need not say anything else to you, i can already tell its gonna be like arguing with a fundamental christian or perhaps a brick wall.
There's no need to insult here.
We can state our beliefs/opinions.
As you said Capt, trying to "prove" something using your opinion or belief of it is meaningless.
But at the same time, it's important to respect that belief.
My personal belief is that Paralysis isn't required for Phasing or Projecting, as I believe that one can project while fully awake and aware of this reality.
I have no proof for this beyond my beliefs.
~Ryan :)
Talk of proof and evidence. How exactly do you provide proof or evidence of something that is almost entirely subjective? Just asking. I mean you might be able to pull some validation trick - "Yeah dude, yesterday I projected to your house to see if you could see me but you were too busy masturbating to anime porn on your computer. So, yeah, I guess you didn't notice me but then you didn't notice your neighbor across the street watching you with her binoculars either." Your friend might not believe you unless it were fact but even then might not admit it to be true. The neighbor would be the one to give you the validation but she might not admit to anything either. You might not want, at that point, to admit anything yourself.
Personally, I think the discussion of AP alone is a sticky wicket. Unless the other person has similar experience or understanding you stand the risk of appearing VERY strange. I appear very strange anyways so it does not matter so much to me. It is interesting to read here of some people getting very upset and sarcastic. How does that benefit anyone. It benefits me only because I enjoy the flame. I am still a troll I guess.
Captain, that wasn't you on the computer any more than I was the neighbor with the binoculars. :evil:
I better find a new thread. I wouldn't want anyone to rip ME a new one. I like my old one just fine.
the issue of entirely subjective things never came up. We're talking about projection in this thread
Quote from: zareste on May 23, 2010, 04:45:57
the issue of entirely subjective things never came up. We're talking about projection in this thread
No kidding? I though that was what I was talking about. "Evidence based facts". How is "projection" anything BUT subjective. Unless we meet each other in the astral what do we have? A discussion.
This thread started with discussion of brain waves didn't it? I still want to know what brain waves and projection have to do with anything. I'm serious. I'm not doubting here. Just trying to learn more.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 21, 2010, 15:31:40
Thank you Xanth. Im getting tired of people saying Im wrong for giving my opinion, yet backing up their claims with nothing but their opinion? :roll: I guess some people dont understand logical argumentation.
THAT type of discussion is one to avoid, hurt feelings. Don't deny it! Love your feelings! Its ok to cry some times but not ok to cry ALL the time.
I really want someone to agree to disagree. Not disagree to agree. I apologize but I have suddenly felt the need to return to illogical argumentation. "Stirring the ethers" as it were.
Quote from: sola~ on May 22, 2010, 08:06:23
this is very self limiting, I guess we should all give up projecting because we'll never be as good as someone who has a gift. /end Astralpulse forum, I'll let adrian know we have to shut it down now, no one post anymore unless you have a gift because you're of a lower origin to Selea. This is the stupidest idea I've ever seen you communicate. This forum is not here so you can put ideas in people's heads that they won't amount to anything.
Or you have a problem of comprehension or maybe I stated something wrong, whatever it is. I never stated one needs a "gift" to have some experiences, I only stated that people that can do these sort of things automatically do it in another way, and that's actually also in a perfectly "awake" status. What's so wrong about that?
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 22, 2010, 20:11:34
You know I was gonna rip ya a new one Selea (verbally), but the fact that you think you have proved anything by stating your opinions is laughable, and (trying not to be offensive) demonstrates a pretty feeble and closed minded attitude. I pity you, and nothing more needs to be said, you clearly do not understand simple logical argumentation. All you have stated is your opinion, if you honestly cant tell the difference between that and actual evidence based facts, then as I said, I need not say anything else to you, i can already tell its gonna be like arguing with a fundamental christian or perhaps a brick wall.
Omg, are you really trying to provoke me in a internet flame war? Try to comprehend what I write for god's sake instead of trying to insult me without either trying to grasp anything.
The evidence is in people that can do what you say. Do you understand it? A little child can do the same. It is this not evidence for you? If it isn't then TRY to find it for yourself. I didn't tell you to believe me, only to try to have a more open mind on what can or cannot work, only this.
If you don't believe it's possible to "project" in an awake status then fine, however I brought you some examples that you neither replied to. You can believe them maybe not "factual" truth, but how can I prove in that way to you in an internet forum? Be serious please, what you ask is beyond intelligence, and what's worse you have the presumption of trying to teach me what it means.
I told you that are history cases that demonstrated that what you say is wrong. Maybe you don't believe them, fine. I told you that there are many cases where people find themselves with "remote viewing" capabilities while perfectly awake. Don't believe them the same, fine too. However remember then that if you want more "proof" than this you are in the wrong place to ask. Either understand this or try to reply using the same method of discussion, a thing you naturally haven't do in the smallest way since you didn't reply to anything at all of what I said but just discarded it fully as if you are "superior" and not interested in "empyrical" evidence, a thing that it's obvsiously the only thing you can have here, and that, btw, it's the only thing YOU can offer, with the difference that I'm open to your discussion on the matter (of whatever form it may be) while you aren't, it seems, or pretend something that it's beyond the scope of the same.
Either try to understand where we are or try to comprehend that not everyone telling that you are wrong is insulting your ego.
Quote from: Psilibus on May 23, 2010, 04:32:44
Talk of proof and evidence. How exactly do you provide proof or evidence of something that is almost entirely subjective? Just asking.
As I said this argument is not "totally" subjective as you think it. There are also "objective" truths to talk about. Problem is that it is impossible to ascertain them in a forum, but this I thought was a given fact. The only thing you can do here as "proof" are examples, nothing more.
However if you think a forum as a background to "teach" formally experiences or demonstrating facts I think one should be a bit silly. I'm using the "mean" in the best way I can. However, I repeat, there are also objective proofs. One of them in this case is watching a little child doing what we call "projection". Maybe many self-impositions and pretentions on what and what cannot be will be simply removed just by this little experiment. It's not that difficult, isn't it?
Quote from: Selea on May 23, 2010, 06:03:00
As I said this argument is not "totally" subjective as you think it. There are also "objective" truths to talk about. Problem is that it is impossible to ascertain them in a forum, but this I thought was a given fact. The only thing you can do here as "proof" are examples, nothing more.
However if you think a forum as a background to "teach" formally experiences or demonstrating facts I think one should be a bit silly. I'm using the "mean" in the best way I can. However, I repeat, there are also objective proofs. One of them in this case is watching a little child doing what we call "projection". Maybe many self-impositions and pretentions on what and what cannot be will be simply removed just by this little experiment. It's not that difficult, isn't it?
My "karma" keeps dropping. :-o
I still am wondering what type of objective "proof" can be managed. I'm not doubting it could be so, I just haven't heard the answer to my question. "watching a little child doing what we call "projection"" - I'm sorry but - WTF? Unless you can crawl into the mind of the child you have no freakin way of knowing what is going on in their little head. Sorry, but you don't.
I'm watching my mama mastiff, Mathilda, dream right now. She's twitchin and whinin and apparently havin a ball. Is she projecting? In the astral doggy realm? Who knows, but I'll tell you that my observation is that she is responding to some internal stimuli. That's the best objective information I can confirm. She is definitely not "paralyzed", she moving all over the floor. LOL.
Oh well, I don't think these forums are for proofs unless you're going to the island or figuring out what picture I have hanging on my wall. These forums help me because of the "discussion". The stories. The weird experiences that ring true because I know what it feels like or have experienced something similar.
I'm going to go lay down and fly for awhile. It will be a purely objective experience I can assure you.
Thanks for keeping this thread moving. :-D
Quote from: Selea on May 23, 2010, 05:55:11
Or you have a problem of comprehension or maybe I stated something wrong, whatever it is. I never stated one needs a "gift" to have some experiences, I only stated that people that can do these sort of things automatically do it in another way, and that's actually also in a perfectly "awake" status. What's so wrong about that?
Quote from: Selea on May 23, 2010, 05:55:11
There are people that have the "gift" of being able to tranfer the consciousness in other "forms". These people do things differently from people that learned how to do it. The difference in this case is that they can do it either while in an "awake" status.
Let me get this through your head, you're saying that anyone who doesn't have a gift will be LIMITED in what they are able to do compared to someone who has a gift. You're saying no matter how hard the person without a gift tries, they will never be able to be as good as the person who has a gift. You're putting those who don't have a gift as lowbie projectors that can experience but never as well as those who have a gift. You're basically making it seem like if they don't have a gift they won't be able to experience well enough, to the greatest that they can possible, while those who have a gift can do so easily. You're basically saying if they don't have a gift they will always be second rate. So I wonder, do you have a gift? and if you don't, maybe you should realize its because you haven't practiced enough.
Guys...
If you can't be civil then I'm going to request that this thread be locked.
Please keep it clean and stop the insults.
Thanks,
~Ryan
#Astralpulse chat is good~ breathe some life into it
Was I being insulting?
I thought I was encouraging! :-D
Selea... omg... first you call my beliefs flat out wrong then state your equally unfounded beliefs as fact. I talked about fact because you were dismissing my opinion in favour of your own, which is down right insulting when we are discussing unprovable things. Now you start talking all this objectivity stuff in AP, which is a subjective experience... Sorry, but nothing you have said changes my opinion of you, you are continuing to claim your opinions are objective facts... You think I dont get what your saying, but really you lack the understanding of the things you are talking about, so I don't wish to discuss them further. End of story. As for Psilibus, I have no problem with anything you said, sorry if it seemed like I was directing my messages at you.
Quote from: Psilibus on May 23, 2010, 06:23:42
I still am wondering what type of objective "proof" can be managed. I'm not doubting it could be so, I just haven't heard the answer to my question. "watching a little child doing what we call "projection"" - I'm sorry but - WTF? Unless you can crawl into the mind of the child you have no freakin way of knowing what is going on in their little head. Sorry, but you don't.
You are talking of two different things as if they are the same. I was not talking about the "personal" experience a child can have, but HOW THE CHILD APPROACH THE SAME. This you can see with a little experiment. A little child approach the "method" in a total different way as we adults are accustomed to. First the child doesn't need many self-impositions on what works and what not. It is as if he already knows without a doubt that what you are talking about CAN be done. This changes completely the way the experience is approached. One of the differences is, in fact, that a little child needs at most a "daydream" focus of mind to project.
Again, don't believe it? Fine. Still this is an OBJECTVIE truth that anyone can ascertain for themselves. I'm not talking about what the child SEES OR DOES. I'm talking about how the child APPROACH the experience. Two different things, you see.
Quote from: Psilibus on May 23, 2010, 06:23:42
I'm watching my mama mastiff, Mathilda, dream right now. She's twitchin and whinin and apparently havin a ball. Is she projecting? In the astral doggy realm? Who knows, but I'll tell you that my observation is that she is responding to some internal stimuli. That's the best objective information I can confirm. She is definitely not "paralyzed", she moving all over the floor. LOL.
What the hell does this have with what I said is beyond me, really.
Quote from: sola~ on May 23, 2010, 10:53:00
Let me get this through your head, you're saying that anyone who doesn't have a gift will be LIMITED in what they are able to do compared to someone who has a gift. You're saying no matter how hard the person without a gift tries, they will never be able to be as good as the person who has a gift. You're putting those who don't have a gift as lowbie projectors that can experience but never as well as those who have a gift. You're basically making it seem like if they don't have a gift they won't be able to experience well enough, to the greatest that they can possible, while those who have a gift can do so easily. You're basically saying if they don't have a gift they will always be second rate. So I wonder, do you have a gift? and if you don't, maybe you should realize its because you haven't practiced enough.
Listen, or you try to comprehend what one wrote or please just stop replying to me, because either you are dumb or simply have a preconcepted way or reading what I write. Either way I don't have the time for these idiocies.
I told you only that people that know how to transfer consciousness in a "form" without training (i.e. with a sort of "gift") approach the experience in another way. They don't have many of the self-impositions created by those that learn to do the same, for various motives (an intelligent people can understand what these differences are without me telling him/her).
I never said that "non-gifted" people can never reach the same experiences, only that their INITIAL approach is different. However I also said that this different APPROACH to the experience is not easy to overcome because the imposed structures are difficult to overcome. Does this mean that only "gifted" people can do the same? Never said that. I said only that INITIALLY they do things in a different way, i.e. the METHOD is different.
And btw, as I said in another thread (that you have read) while people that can transfer the consciousness without training have maybe a better time when it comes to overcome imposed obstacles on how to approach the experience they have many different obstacles to overcome and many times they are much more difficult to surpass than a simple approach to the experience. So are "gifted" people really gifted? No. Nature is always in equilibrum.
Do you understand now or I have to make a painting?
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 24, 2010, 00:16:27
Selea... omg... first you call my beliefs flat out wrong then state your equally unfounded beliefs as fact.
My "beliefs" were demonstrated (to the best of my abilities here, naturally) with examples and motives why it is not as you said. Naturally you didn't (and haven't till now) replied to a single thing. You are doing as an ostrich, you just put your head in the sand just to not hear and believe just what you want. However remember that it's difficult to grow this way, either in your "methods" of approaching an experience.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 24, 2010, 00:16:27
I talked about fact because you were dismissing my opinion in favour of your own, which is down right insulting when we are discussing unprovable things.
Again, unprovable in a forum, but this you know much too well, isn't it? You are just going round and round with this silly argumentation and I believe you are intelligent enough to understand perfectly what you are doing. However I'm too, sorry for you.
Quote from: Capt. Picard on May 24, 2010, 00:16:27
Now you start talking all this objectivity stuff in AP, which is a subjective experience... Sorry, but nothing you have said changes my opinion of you, you are continuing to claim your opinions are objective facts...
Never wanted to change your ideas on the matter. Only tried to make you have a more open mind. As for the objective-subjective matter refer to my previous message to Psilibus. You are talking of different things as if they are the same, same as him.
Quote from: Selea on May 24, 2010, 04:57:42
You are talking of two different things as if they are the same. I was not talking about the "personal" experience a child can have, but HOW THE CHILD APPROACH THE SAME. This you can see with a little experiment. A little child approach the "method" in a total different way as we adults are accustomed to. First the child doesn't need many self-impositions on what works and what not. It is as if he already knows without a doubt that what you are talking about CAN be done. This changes completely the way the experience is approached. One of the differences is, in fact, that a little child needs at most a "daydream" focus of mind to project.
Again, don't believe it? Fine. Still this is an OBJECTVIE truth that anyone can ascertain for themselves. I'm not talking about what the child SEES OR DOES. I'm talking about how the child APPROACH the experience. Two different things, you see.
What the hell does this have with what I said is beyond me, really.
Thought you might see what I posted awhile back. There might be common ground in a response from you if you give it some thought. I dunno if the link works. Read it and comment please.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/kids_say_the_darndest_things-t31673.0.html;msg258410#msg258410
And the comment on my dog was in regards to this dilemma -
ob·jec·tive (b-jktv)
adj.
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
4. Medicine Indicating a symptom or condition perceived as a sign of disease by someone other than the person affected.
5. Grammar
a. Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
b. Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.
n.
1. Something that actually exists.
2. Something worked toward or striven for; a goal. See Synonyms at intention.
3. Grammar
a. The objective case.
b. A noun or pronoun in the objective case.
4. The lens or lens system in a microscope or other optical instrument that first receives light rays from the object and forms the image. Also called object glass, objective lens, object lens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ob·jective·ly adv.
ob·jective·ness n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
-----VERSUS-----
sub·jec·tive (sb-jktv)
adj.
1.
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.
b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.
2. Moodily introspective.
3. Existing only in the mind; illusory.
4. Psychology Existing only within the experiencer's mind.
5. Medicine Of, relating to, or designating a symptom or condition perceived by the patient and not by the examiner.
6. Expressing or bringing into prominence the individuality of the artist or author.
7. Grammar Relating to or being the nominative case.
8. Relating to the real nature of something; essential.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sub·jective·ly adv.
sub·jective·ness, subjec·tivi·ty (sbjk-tv-t) n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Philosophical debates are one thing but blatant definitions are another. I still am interested in your objective proof. Like I said, I'm not denying it exists, I just have not read anything which satisfies my criteria for objectivity.
We'll get there I'm sure.
Does anybody have anything left to say about sleep paralysis related to trance?
nope. lock it.
Ditto on both counts. In fact, I'm surprised to be posting.
Thaaaank You!