OOBE = LUCID DREAMS?

[The AlphaOmega]

I was wondering what peoples views on this was.  Recently I've been having some really intense, vivid, and conscious lucid dreams, and it got me thinking.  I've read a lot of OOB books, and a fundamental characteristic of OOBE's is that you can't always recall each detail, or that you lose consciousness during the projection.  This sounds very similar to a lucid dream to me.  Now I know that many people say that an OOBE is seemingly more real than the dream state, but I've come to question that also due to the very profound level of consciousness in my lucid dreams.  I've gained total control over the experience and can even recall my day before I went to sleep inside the dream.  Now with all the discussions about visiting the afterlife, speaking to dead relatives, and going as far as entering other dimensions... are we certain that these are not just a higher level of conscious dreaming.  Heck, doesn't even have to be higher I guess.

[kiwibonga]

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/oobe.html

Personal experimentation is the most logical method for validation of these sensations, and researchers are largely reliant on the accumulation of data relating to personal accounts in seeking to identify the elements common to these experiences. For this reason, survey research has often been used in the study of the OOBE. One of the first recorded was conducted in the UK in 1890 by the British Society of Psychical Research.
More than 100 years later, in 1999, a sophisticated online survey analysing 98 different aspects of the OOBE was launched via the Internet by the International Academy of Consciousness [see NEXUS 6/05]. To date, over 7,000 Internet users have responded. The IAC researchers Wagner Alegretti and Nanci Trivellato acknowledge that the survey participants are not representative of the general population as they are all Internet users and most had some pre-existing interest in studies of the paranormal. Nevertheless, the results show that many different characteristics of the phenomena associated with the OOBE are shared by people around the world, irrespective of their age, gender, nationality, ethnicity, cultural background, religion, level of education or socio-economic status. This is a significant outcome that further confirms the value of pursuing such investigations. (This survey may be accessed at http://www.iacworld.org.)
The sensations mentioned previously are corroborated by the preliminary results of the IAC online survey, which reveal that, of the first 1,185 people who responded to this survey in 1999, 1,007 reported experiencing some of these sensations.
Other historical surveys of interest include a study conducted by Celia Elizabeth Green. In 1967, she asked 380 students at Oxford University if they had had any experiences in which they felt themselves to be outside their body. Thirty-four per cent of the students replied affirmatively.
In addition, much experimental research has been conducted by a number of scientists. In 1972, for example, Janet Lee Mitchell, a researcher at the American Society for Psychical Research in New York, USA, carried out a number of experiments aimed at furthering knowledge of vision whilst outside the body. The research subject was Ingo Swann, a known clairvoyant and surrealist painter. During the experiments, different target objects were hidden on a platform suspended 3.5 metres above the floor of the room. After "projecting" his vision, Swann described the objects he saw both verbally and with illustrations. An independent judge correctly matched eight of Swann's drawings with the eight target objects used in the experiment. Such satisfactory results were highly improbable and attest to the "travelling" nature of Swann's viewing.
The following year, Karlis Osis, a parapsychologist, sent an open invitation throughout the United States to all individuals capable of projecting at will, to project themselves out of body and into the premises of the American Society for Psychical Research in New York. One hundred people were selected from the large number that volunteered. Four target objects were placed at a predetermined location within the building. Although the experiment didn't achieve total success, 15 per cent of the participants produced clear evidence of having visited the office through extraphysical means.
In 1979, in partnership with Donna L. McCormick and again at the American Society for Psychical Research in New York, Karlis Osis tested the kinetic effects of the projected consciousness. The team developed a means of measuring the presence of the extraphysical body of the projector (Alexander Tanous, in this experiment) through a system of sensors placed inside a sealed chamber. In addition, the projector was to attempt to perceive figures that were randomly produced by a specially designed optical system inside the chamber. Of the 197 attempts made by Tanous, 114 hits and 83 misses were made during 20 sessions. Every time that Tanous was able to describe correctly the figure selected and shown, the sensors detected the presence of something inside the shielded chamber.
Currently, an experimental research project entitled Projective Field is being conducted by the aforementioned IAC researchers. The experiment is aimed at understanding the processes by which an individual captures information through the OOBE and remote viewing. The main purpose of the experiment is to investigate both the apprehension of the information via nonphysical means and the subsequent transfer of this information to the physical brain.
Five batteries of well-designed experiments have already been conducted in Spain, Portugal, the United States and the United Kingdom. External auditors and judges participated in all experiments to attest to the validity of the scientific methodology. Intriguing preliminary results presented at the Third International Congress of Projectiology and Conscientiology at the New York School of Medicine in 2002 showed that, of the 105 participants, 52 reported 93 instances of the OOBE. The results presented also suggested that shapes of objects, followed by colours, are most easily perceived when outside the body.

Since you are able to lucid dream easily... Perhaps you should attempt projecting and doing your own experiments... I know I will triple check everything I've read so far

[RooJ]

I think its very possible, ive been lucky enough to experience some unbelievably real lucid dreams so i tend to take a more open minded approach.

I think alot of it comes down to belief as it seems to be near impossible to prove either way, i know the mind is capable of producing experiences this powerful, whether you can put all experiences down to dreams is another matter.

>RooJ

[sumday]

If you subscribe to Frank's Phasing Model (and i do. he talks about things i'd noticed to be true before reading his stuff),  luicd dreams, normal dreams, astral projections, and OOBEs are all the same state of conciousness(should that be 'focus of attention'?). The only thing that differentiates these experiences is your will and expectation.

If you're having very vivid lucid dreams, why not try and teleport yourself somewhere within the real world without holding any expectations as to what it will be like, and perhaps you'll be in an astral projection.

[ChineseRoom]

Well, it's certainly a good alternative hypothosis, though I have to do alot more research into it.

[Skeletor]

OBEs are more than simple lucid dreams.  I have gone to verifying things I see in the astral when I am back in the physical.  My results showed me that what I experienced was indeed real.  Lucid dreams, while equally vivid and almost as profound as OBEs, do not maintain the level of reality and are often full of "mind pollution".

As to the suggestion that OBEs are simply a higher level of lucid dream, it doesn't really make a difference.  They are what they are.