Astral Project and Dreams

[engagement]

From Frank Kepples posts and from other books I'v started to come to the conclusion that

Astral project is not something seperate from dreaming

It is simply entering the dream state ( something we do each night ) but being conscious you are dreaming and in doing so are able to make decisions and choices instead of being an observer who only remembers upon waking up

As it has been said time and time again by astral projection books and teachers

" We project every night, but we just dont remember it "

So from what I can tell - forget techniques, forget meditation and third eyes, ropes hanging from the ceiling and blah blah blah

Just realize we are all doing it but some of us are at times becoming more conscious of it before and in our dreams

Dream state = Astral plane

We just need to remember our dreams, as in doing so  we will be able to determine

Was I conscious that I was dreaming when I dreamt that part? or am I only remembering that dream upon waking up after a night of sleep

To give an example

last night i dreamt all night but I only remember 2 dreams

1. Running from the law, in a ferrari car ( remembered this in the morning )

2. I was with a person who had needles of liquid and he was telling me about projecting and how he was scared because he sees alien beings, At this moment in the dream I said I need to get back to my body ( remembered in the dream itself that I was not in body )   I remember after waking that I had said this while in the dream itself

So... for both parts I was in the astral projection state but in the first part I was unconscious of it, and in the 2nd I was conscious of it while it was happening

Now essentially from what I can grasp, some people become conscious on the onset of dreaming ( they see the projection out ), some in dream and some as they slowly awake, seeing both dream world and physical world ( lucid )

Correct me if Im wrong but im pretty much  feeling that this is astral projection in a nutshell

Really it should be called

Astral Conscious

We can split hairs and say that its only projection if you saw yourself coming out of your body, yet essentially any awareness/ consciousness that you are dreaming can be classed under astral projection or conscious of the astral projection state

So instead of Dreaming ( not aware of choices in the astral, just seemingly like puppets seeing and doing without choice)

We are dreaming but conscious that its a dream, and aware of choices, so instead of just going right or left in the dream like a puppet led by our dream, we can literally choose which way to go while in the dream

We are consicous of that decision vs having no idea why we went left or saw this person or saw that building

And so when we become conscious a bit like waking up out of a day dream, we can then choose to go places, do things, and see things

So it explains why people have a hard job as they are trying to remember the actual EXIT vs long after the exit has occured and full dreaming is happening.

Most of us I feel are dreaming at night ( unconscious )

A full on astral projection would be ( conscious on exit and while having the dream )

Im feeling mine are partial - meaning last night I became conscious for a moment in dream

So, our job is to remember as in remembering we can determine which parts were unconscious and which parts were conscious

[kurtykurt42]

Sometimes I feel as if I'm accessing memories of the past or future when I'm dreaming and just watching them, like you would with a movie.

[engagement]

Sometimes I feel as if I'm accessing memories of the past or future when I'm dreaming and just watching them, like you would with a movie.

Interesting..

But are you aware in the dream itself that you are observing and able to make choices or are you unconscious and only remember this upon waking up

[engagement]

I imagine if It it was an equation it might look like this


Astral Plane = Dream State ( we all do it and enter it every night )

Dream State = Unconscious observer (seeing) and particpant (doing), which is not aware that its a dream until you wake up ( what most people do)

Astral Conscious = Being in the Dream State BUT instead you become aware at some point in the dream, that it's a dream and so you become a Conscious observer and particpant, able to choose what to see and do and upon waking up aware you was conscious in the dream  ( you know in the dream and upon wake that you knew in the dream )

Astral Projection = Astral conscious but conscious upon exit ( experience leaving body ) and able to choose what to see and do and at times conscious of returning to body ( experience returning to body )  ( you know in dream and upon wakening up )

Lucid Dreaming = On the border of waking up, eyes flutter, your seeing the dream and physical at same time whether through physical eyes or through your eye lids. A combination of conscious and unconscious.

[engagement]

Tonight before I sleep I will test something and let you know the results tommorow

[Greytraveller]

Hi engagement

Frank Kepple is very good at what he does and he is an explorer of altered states of consciousness.

However, he, nor any other explorer knows everything about the astral worlds.
IMO an OBE is COMPLETELY separate and different from a normal dream state.
To my way of thinking it is actually quite simple. During the out of body experience the conscious/soul/astral body is completely separate from and detached from the physical body. During a dream the consciousness/soul is still inside and part of the physical body.
I do not want to be dogmatic about this yet the difference cannot be overemphasized. So try to be open minded about this, explore OBEs for yourself and don't take anyone else's theory at face value.

Regards   
Grey

[Xanth]

Some of us have come to believe that the place we dream is different in that it's your own personal "space" to play with.
While the Astral is made up of the same space, but is more of a public area.

[Stookie]

It seems a lot of people view a "hazy" state of consciousness as a dream or lucid dream no matter what.

For me, a particular state of consciousness and awareness are 2 completely different things. If I'm in a dream state of consciousness (normal dream) and then bring conscious awareness into it, it becomes a lucid dream. Awareness is what makes it so - whether hazy or crystal clear. How clear my self-awareness is can vary no matter what level of consciousness I'm at. A hazy experience in F25 doesn't make it a lucid dream. It just means you might not remember it afterwords.

My semantics anyways...

[CFTraveler]

Hi engagement


To my way of thinking it is actually quite simple. During the out of body experience the conscious/soul/astral body is completely separate from and detached from the physical body. During a dream the consciousness/soul is still inside and part of the physical body.

I disagree.  I have bilocated enough times in projection to know that you don't leave your body completely in projection- your conscious mind does.  Other experiences, such as the Dweller phenomenon, also support this view.

[engagement]

lol i wish they would put the quote link on the far right instead of modiyf i keep hitting modify instead of quote

[engagement]

I disagree.  I have bilocated enough times in projection to know that you don't leave your body completely in projection- your conscious mind does.  Other experiences, such as the Dweller phenomenon, also support this view.

Maybe, I mean just because we see ourself outside of our physical body that might not mean we are actually outside of the body.

For what is the body? What is the physical plane?

Everything we know is Energy, every material thing is just energy at a different vibration

There is no seperation of anything and even that what we perceive is seperating us, is energy itself. Keeping everything as one thing

The term " Seperation " is something that refers to something here and something there, with little thought to whats in between ( hence time and relativity came to be ). We are used to this understanding as in this conscious state of the physical world without it, we wouldn't be able to operate and have the experiences we do.

Yet according to those who have spent a great deal of time in the astral plane consciouslly. There is not time, you only think a place and you are there, you haven't moved from here to there, but a shift of attention has occured and with it so does your experience seemingly

Essentialy different states of consciousness change our perception and in turn change our experience.

Which explains why Frank Kepple refered to it as Phasing, and not seperation. As well as bringing up that monroe in his later years suggested that it was not seperation, but an internal experience. A state of conscious awareness and different states of consciousness

What we see with our eyes doesn't always equate what is truth

[CFTraveler]

I agree with you in principle- in the bigger picture there is no separation, only the appearance of separation.  In other words, what we perceive is the point of view of our conscious awareness.  But I think that when 'phasing' is used as opposed to 'separation', the experience of the single unit of consciousness is different, even if there is no fundamental difference- it's  a matter of how you're receiving the information, or more accurately, how you perceive that you're receiving the information.

[winternights]

well, I will ask also here, why dont blind persons (from birth) able to see those astral worlds in dreams? If we go out from body in dreams, we should not have physical limitations right...?

[CFTraveler]

well, I will ask also here, why dont blind persons (from birth) able to see those astral worlds in dreams? If we go out from body in dreams, we should not have physical limitations right...?

Remember that in the physical we see in images with our  eyes, which are turned into images by the brain.  But when you project you are perceiving your environment with your energy body, not your eyes.  So when you process the information you received when out of body, your brain turns it into what is familiar to you:  images and sensations.
A person who has never 'seen' with their eyes, when perceiving with their energy body, should then process it in a way that is familiar to them, whatever makes sense to them.

But more importantly, where did you get the idea that blind projectors don't see astral worlds in dreams?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[winternights]

CFTraveler, thanks for reply.

From the documentary on you tube "The Day I Died. NDE + Consciousness Documentary" the blind woman said she cant see in dreams but she has seen in nde. So that why i wondered she cant see in dreams, because in dreams we actually astral trevel and we dont use then our physical body we should not have any physical limitations... well that why I was a bit confuzed:)
thanks

[thirdeye26]

I am not really sure if we are astral projecting when we are dreaming. Sometimes, I think dreams are just the mind replaying the incidents of the day. When I was a teacher, I used to have teaching dreams. I used to go into the classroom and teach even in my dreams. It was so frustrating. But now, I no longer have teaching dreams because I no longer teach. So, isn't that just an overstressed brain replaying incidents in a distorted fashion over and over again?

[CFTraveler]

Yes, but you are differentiating the processing from the information it processes, and the matrix it processes it in.  In other words, I think that when you dream what you are doing is processing information, but the source of the information is not always from physical life- you can dream about the things you do during the day, what they mean to you, and this includes any experience or information you are getting 'extralocally'.  That is why you can dream about the events of today, last year, your mindspace, and ocassionally, what happens to someone else, somewhere else.
I have no doubt that dreams are brain processing, but the information in dreams are not always 'locally' obtained, and experienced, and that is the interesting part of it.  That's why we have shared dreams and precognitive dreams, besides psychologically significant dreams, and archetypal dreams.

[Stookie]

I have no doubt that dreams are brain processing, but the information in dreams are not always 'locally' obtained

That makes a lot of sense.

Steiner talked about most normal dreams as being the effect of the unconscious experiences the astral body has during sleep when it is integrated back with the etheric body, which is then relayed to the brain. Filtering those experiences, the etheric body and brain do their best to reconstruct them using the percepts and concepts gained during physical life, which is one reason why many look at dreams as symbols for something else.

[engagement]

I am not really sure if we are astral projecting when we are dreaming. Sometimes, I think dreams are just the mind replaying the incidents of the day. When I was a teacher, I used to have teaching dreams. I used to go into the classroom and teach even in my dreams. It was so frustrating. But now, I no longer have teaching dreams because I no longer teach. So, isn't that just an overstressed brain replaying incidents in a distorted fashion over and over again?

I agree somewhat. I think the mind can replay over the events of a day, almost overlay parts of the physical into the non physical depending on how we are coping with life

Yet there are many places in the dreamstate that I have seen that are just not of this world

[Psilibus]

Engagement -

I see these types of conversations pop up more and more in these forums. It is wordplay - "dreams = astral projection". No. Not even close in my book. That would be like saying  - 1976 Datsun b210 = 2010 Nissan GT-R. Sure they are both cars that can get you somewhere but...

Please don't try to reinvent the wheel here. Please try to utilize the language and terminology that is already present. Excuse me if I misunderstood you in some way, I think I understand what you are trying to say but...

It doesn't sound to me like you have projected or been to the astral realm that you can remember. When you do have that experience you will know there is a grand difference and the specific terminologies will certainly apply.

I know my dreams very well. I know my lucid experiences very well. They are distinctly different. A conscious projection is NOTHING like any type of dream I have ever had. Apples and oranges, in my book.

The experience you have will be based on your perceptions, your state of mind, level of awareness and scope of focus. Dreams you usually remember once you wake up. Lucid dreams and OBE's you "experience" as it is happening and are generally lucky to remember once you awaken unless you have a technique that helps.

I probably shouldn't be typing this as I haven't slept in over 24 hours. 2 cents worth.

[Xanth]

Hi Psi
I'm just gonna run through your post quickly and give my perceptions on the ideas you put forth.

I see these types of conversations pop up more and more in these forums. It is wordplay - "dreams = astral projection". No. Not even close in my book. That would be like saying  - 1976 Datsun b210 = 2010 Nissan GT-R. Sure they are both cars that can get you somewhere but...

You're comparing apples to oranges here.
In my opinion, the only thing that separates a dream from an astral projection is how consciously aware you are.  Nothing more.  They both take place in the same "place", that is your subconscious.

It doesn't sound to me like you have projected or been to the astral realm that you can remember. When you do have that experience you will know there is a grand difference and the specific terminologies will certainly apply.

That's very true.  It's really hard to mistake the two.
One of them I'd describe myself as simply an 'actor'... the other I'm the 'director'.
Same scene, but in one I'm going with the flow the other I'm controlling the flow.

I know my dreams very well. I know my lucid experiences very well. They are distinctly different. A conscious projection is NOTHING like any type of dream I have ever had. Apples and oranges, in my book.

I'm not sure if we're simply talking semantics here, but to me they're the same... the only difference is with *ME* not the surrounding. 

As I said, in some cases, I believe we're just talking semantics.

~Ryan

[Psilibus]

Thanks Xanth.

Actually I was trying to avoid the apples and oranges with my car analogy - both vehicles of transport but one much more souped up and fancy than the other. Oh well.

Yes, semantics. The language barrier can be quite an obstacle here. I'm trying to learn the whole "phasing" thing now and it is presenting its own set of conflicts with my classic training. Once again, oh well.

But still, to me, "dreams" does not "equal" "astral projection". They come from the same place, yes, but quite very different in terms of what you (should say I) experience. That is the apples and oranges, the experience.

Yes?

[The Doctor]

From Frank Kepples posts and from other books I'v started to come to the conclusion that

Astral project is not something seperate from dreaming

It is simply entering the dream state ( something we do each night ) but being conscious you are dreaming and in doing so are able to make decisions and choices instead of being an observer who only remembers upon waking up

As it has been said time and time again by astral projection books and teachers

" We project every night, but we just dont remember it "

So from what I can tell - forget techniques, forget meditation and third eyes, ropes hanging from the ceiling and blah blah blah

Just realize we are all doing it but some of us are at times becoming more conscious of it before and in our dreams

Dream state = Astral plane

We just need to remember our dreams, as in doing so  we will be able to determine

Was I conscious that I was dreaming when I dreamt that part? or am I only remembering that dream upon waking up after a night of sleep

To give an example

last night i dreamt all night but I only remember 2 dreams

1. Running from the law, in a ferrari car ( remembered this in the morning )

2. I was with a person who had needles of liquid and he was telling me about projecting and how he was scared because he sees alien beings, At this moment in the dream I said I need to get back to my body ( remembered in the dream itself that I was not in body )   I remember after waking that I had said this while in the dream itself

So... for both parts I was in the astral projection state but in the first part I was unconscious of it, and in the 2nd I was conscious of it while it was happening

Now essentially from what I can grasp, some people become conscious on the onset of dreaming ( they see the projection out ), some in dream and some as they slowly awake, seeing both dream world and physical world ( lucid )

Correct me if Im wrong but im pretty much  feeling that this is astral projection in a nutshell

Really it should be called

Astral Conscious

We can split hairs and say that its only projection if you saw yourself coming out of your body, yet essentially any awareness/ consciousness that you are dreaming can be classed under astral projection or conscious of the astral projection state

So instead of Dreaming ( not aware of choices in the astral, just seemingly like puppets seeing and doing without choice)

We are dreaming but conscious that its a dream, and aware of choices, so instead of just going right or left in the dream like a puppet led by our dream, we can literally choose which way to go while in the dream

We are consicous of that decision vs having no idea why we went left or saw this person or saw that building

And so when we become conscious a bit like waking up out of a day dream, we can then choose to go places, do things, and see things

So it explains why people have a hard job as they are trying to remember the actual EXIT vs long after the exit has occured and full dreaming is happening.

Most of us I feel are dreaming at night ( unconscious )

A full on astral projection would be ( conscious on exit and while having the dream )

Im feeling mine are partial - meaning last night I became conscious for a moment in dream

So, our job is to remember as in remembering we can determine which parts were unconscious and which parts were conscious

So does this mean that all Astral Projection is a dream? As in, when something happens in the AP world, is it only happening because your brain is making that up does the people in that world have minds of their own?

[nickspry]

 William Buhlman described the differences between conscious states in terms of  "moving inwards" which is a good description I think. The further inwards you move from the physical the more your conscious non-physical awareness increases, and this happens in distinct stages (hence the planes and sub-planes theory I guess). Move inwards from the physical and you enter a normal dreamstate, inwards again and the dream becomes lucid, then a projection etc. With each inward move the physical becomes more distant and unreal and we become more deeply intergrated in the non-physical environment.
Each state is distinctly different in terms of awareness. So they are related states, but not the same, just as x-rays, gamma rays and radio waves are related but very far removed from each other in terms of vibratory rate.

[Bacterio]

I think as long as every mental process is not "in the brain", dreams should exist where "astral projection" exists...the question should be "where" you are "existing" and how aware you are,...i.e when I am dreaming, I live in this dream world (it is reality for me) but I can be with low awareness of my surroundings and actions. You can use different names and create all the borders you want, but you can't map or even define consciouness...you can only describe how is your perception of it.