Dream? Astral Projection? Both?

[schockstuhh]

This experience occured on March 2, 2011 @ around 4:00am. I typed everything out on my phone when i woke up so sorry if it's a bit choppy.

So i believe i turned a dream into an astral projection. in my dream, I was with a black friend of whom i dont know personally, and we began fighting physically. At that moment i knew i was dreaming, became lucid, and almost woke up. i remember feeling odd sensations and seeing light and and weird black shapes. I fought my body's urge to wake up and I wound back up in my dream with my friend. but became aware of what had happened, and i felt a "shift"'out of the dream again, but this time as the switch of consciousness began, i began to imagine a rope to climb out of my body with. my attempts brought on strong sensation, and i finally got out of my body. i dont recall exactly where i was except for that i was in a building. being able successful fly when i tried to surprised me. i flew into a wall hoping i could go through it but that didn't quite work. i knew id need to work on that so instead i looked for an opening. i flew up to the top from within this foreign bulding (almost like some sort of tower) and found a window to fly out. once outside, all i remember was looking up at the stars and seeing beautiful clusters of stars. i saw an orange group that caught most of my interst, so i began flying to it. as i was flying i attempted to pickup speed because i assumed i could simply surpass normal flying speed in the astral and arrive at my target quick. this sort of failed, but as i flew across the sky and got closer, the orange stars began to appear as flying birds that looked like flamingos. there was also a white group of stars that then passed me as some sort of large white birds. after seeing such a beautiful sight, i touched down to the ground. everything seemed was so beautiful and amazing, like a fantasy that i've yearned to experience all my life. also, i believe i can recall being with someone else. On the ground, I began walking and attempted to call a guide. At first nothing appeared, and i continued to walk. Then something occurred that made me turn around but i cant quite remember. After turning around, i saw a purple flower floating in mid-air. I believe it was some sort of device because i used it, figured out what it was, and kept it. Then a fellow appeared to me and we engaged in conversation. he appeared human shorter than me. the closest thing that i believe he seemed to resemble was that of a leperchaun. He seemed very excited to be there with me and the other person that i was with, because we were talking to eachother through our minds and speaking of how exciting and cool it was that we could do that. the guide and i spoke both telepathically and verbally and i told him i wished to go to the moon. for some reason he couldnt just bring me there so i decided to just fly there. one attempt at flying failed because i think i didnt have confidence in making it to the moon and i told him the problem. he told me to try again. i asked him if there were any portals that could simply take me there. he said yes and amongst the buildings and hills appeared a set of colorful "portals". he pointed at a certain one and i took off flying. i made it to the portal and it took us to an odd building with people in it. everything looked like it could be apart of the kingdom hearts world. i remembering holding two items in my hand: the rose and the other i cannot recall. with both in my hands i flew through openings and hallways, all that led upward. but, on my way up i passed a friend of mine in real life who's words he spoke when i passed him disturbed me. he said something along the lines of, "[my name], im here, you know im mad". i assumed it was just part of my mind intruding and at first i fought it off, but as i flew out the top of the building into open sky surrounded by what appeared to be trees, his words haunted my mind and i began to lose a grip on my reality. i started falling slowly and my vision began to darken as i became engulfed in blackness. i could feel my body now and i once tried to move and wake up, but i couldnt for a few seconds but i felt a few body sensations. i tried again and woke up.

When i had awoke, it felt almost like a distant memory. It seemed almost too dream-like to be a projection after waking up, but i remember the body sensations from the shift of dream consciousness into an out of my body one. i remember the feelings of the rope exiting technique. at first i projected into darkness but my vision began to clear up. as to what i was holding on to and who i was with, i am uncertain. also, there were moments where i would start thinking of my physical body, but i fought the idea of these thoughts because i knew that thinking of my physical body might cause me to wake up. Not entirely sure if this was a dream or a projection, but either way, it was the most vivid and amazing experience that i can ever recall having.

[Greytraveller]

Hi schockstuh
Yes, I'd say that Was an OBE. Projecting out of a lucid dream is an effective and common way of going out of body. Maybe there were some dream elements and imagery mixed in with the astral locale. And where you travelled to Was an astral locale (not a physical location).
That small leprachaun/elf creature you encountered probably does have an objective existence. He was probably Not a guide, however.  Remember that leprachauns and other 'wee folk' are notable for being misleading and deceitful or untruthful. They are not actually hostile or evil, its just that they try to trick and fool the unwary. Which is why you never got out of that city.

Regards 
Grey

[NickisDank]

I don't get it, you were already out of your body when you realized you were lucid dreaming, so I don't understand how you climbed out of your LD body and ended up being out of your body again

[schockstuhh]

I don't get it, you were already out of your body when you realized you were lucid dreaming, so I don't understand how you climbed out of your LD body and ended up being out of your body again

Sorry, it was pretty confusing to me when it happened. I'll try to clarify as best I can. What happened was that when I became lucid, I began to feel the urge to wake up, but I fought this feeling and wound up back in my dream. Once back in my dream, I quickly realized what had happened, and experienced similar but slightly different sensations and visuals. Usually, when I become lucid in a dream, I wake up with my eyes closed and once I experience body vibrations and certain visuals such as white light, I attempt to exit my body. This time, I seemed to skip the step of waking up, and I believe I underwent the process of "phasing"? I'm not completely sure, but from what I've read about it, it seems to match my experience. When the environment of my dream began to shift, I found myself engulfed by complete blackness where I used the "rope" method (blindly). Next moment I knew, I was at that astral location.

[Xanth]

Projection.
Definitely projection. 

But really, in my opinion, even a "dream" is an astral projection... it's a projection where you're unconscious of the fact that you've projected.

[schockstuhh]

Projection.
Definitely projection. 

But really, in my opinion, even a "dream" is an astral projection... it's a projection where you're unconscious of the fact that you've projected.

Ahhh okay, so what EXACTLY do you believe is a dream? I believe that dreams spawn from memory and inner most feeling & emotions. There's probably more to it, but that's some of it I think. If dreams are projections, and projecting transcends time, then that could possibly explain premonition.

[CFTraveler]

Ahhh okay, so what EXACTLY do you believe is a dream? I believe that dreams spawn from memory and inner most feeling & emotions. There's probably more to it, but that's some of it I think. If dreams are projections, and projecting transcends time, then that could possibly explain premonition.

If I may butt in-
Even in a 'proper' astral projection, you still will see elements of memories and thoughts, because you, the perceiver, shape the energy you perceive into what makes sense to you.
The difference, besides what Xanth said, is that in a 'proper' astral projection, there will be more collective information along with the subjective information, while in a 'proper' dream, there will be more psychologically-driven symbology- but there will also be some collective information too, which is why we can have shared dreams or precognitive events in 'regular' dreaming.

[schockstuhh]

If I may butt in-
Even in a 'proper' astral projection, you still will see elements of memories and thoughts, because you, the perceiver, shape the energy you perceive into what makes sense to you.
The difference, besides what Xanth said, is that in a 'proper' astral projection, there will be more collective information along with the subjective information, while in a 'proper' dream, there will be more psychologically-driven symbology- but there will also be some collective information too, which is why we can have shared dreams or precognitive events in 'regular' dreaming.

That makes sense. By collective information, do you mean things with an objective existance?

[CFTraveler]

 

By collective information, do you mean things with an objective existance?

Good question and I don't know.  If the astral is the result of our thoughts and emotions (back to the idea of the M-Band there) then the structures given by collective thought will be perceptible as objects, but I don't know if you can call it objective, or under what ruleset- so I'd say 'subjectively objective'.  Sort of.

[schockstuhh]

 Good question and I don't know.  If the astral is the result of our thoughts and emotions (back to the idea of the M-Band there) then the structures given by collective thought will be perceptible as objects, but I don't know if you can call it objective, or under what ruleset- so I'd say 'subjectively objective'.  Sort of.

haha well that's kind of confusing, but i think i get it! thanks errbodyy.

[Xanth]

haha well that's kind of confusing, but i think i get it! thanks errbodyy.

Think of it this way... two people can be in the same "place" or "area", yet perceive it completely differently.

Each person is subjectively perceiving an objective place.  The place exists, but each person will see it differently.

Does that make help any?

[schockstuhh]

Think of it this way... two people can be in the same "place" or "area", yet perceive it completely differently.

Each person is subjectively perceiving an objective place.  The place exists, but each person will see it differently.

Does that make help any?

ahh thanks, that makes perfect sense. but let's say two people were in the same place at the same time, would they still perceive it differently? it's confusing because if it's all an issue of different perception, i would think that it would be hard to understand the true nature of what you're perceiving.

[CFTraveler]

Let's say that you and I go to a learning place.  The collective quality of it is that it is energy, and information-  it is a place where you acquire information.  The information is collective- some created by others' experience in 3D, and others in np experience.  Let's just say for kicks and giggles, that this is specifically for humans.

Let's say, that you and I both visit this 'locale' in nonphysical reality.  We go at the same time but don't recognize each other because we are focused on what we're doing.
You see it as a computer bank, populated by robots that maintain and program the machines as new information comes in.  You want to find something out, so a servo gives you a seat in a cubicle, where you sit down, type some keywords and receive your information.

I enter a clearing on a sunny afternoon, in a Greco-Roman colonnaded open plaza that is right by the seashore.  There is a philosopher-looking person who is giving a lecture on something that interests me.  There are others sitting around the plaza raptly listening to the speaker.  I sit on a small boulder and listen.   The philosopher starts talking about something that I find interesting.  I ask him questions, he answers them.  He then shows me a scroll with names.  I look at them and think about what they mean.

Another person that is not either you or I walk into a school.  As she sits in the classroom she realizes she forgot her notebook.  She walks to the cafeteria where she realizes she is famished.  She goes to a buffet and sees several tasty treats.  She chooses a piece of cherry pie.  As she bites into it, she remembers when she was young, the pies her grandmother used to make.  This brings her back to memories of her childhood and things her grandmother (may have) taught her.

All these scenarios are possibilities of the same area- all three of us went to the same 'place'.  Each person has different cultural backgrounds and needs, and will experience the same 'place' differently, yet each one of them has identified it similarly.  Two of them interfaced with a 'being' 'there' who facilitated the information transfer, and the third person received the information from a 'buffet', and it was in the form of an immersive event- the flavor of the information packet brought back memories (download).

So you see three different ways of interpreting the same energetic event.

[schockstuhh]

Let's say that you and I go to a learning place.  The collective quality of it is that it is energy, and information-  it is a place where you acquire information.  The information is collective- some created by others' experience in 3D, and others in np experience.  Let's just say for kicks and giggles, that this is specifically for humans.

Let's say, that you and I both visit this 'locale' in nonphysical reality.  We go at the same time but don't recognize each other because we are focused on what we're doing.
You see it as a computer bank, populated by robots that maintain and program the machines as new information comes in.  You want to find something out, so a servo gives you a seat in a cubicle, where you sit down, type some keywords and receive your information.

I enter a clearing on a sunny afternoon, in a Greco-Roman colonnaded open plaza that is right by the seashore.  There is a philosopher-looking person who is giving a lecture on something that interests me.  There are others sitting around the plaza raptly listening to the speaker.  I sit on a small boulder and listen.   The philosopher starts talking about something that I find interesting.  I ask him questions, he answers them.  He then shows me a scroll with names.  I look at them and think about what they mean.

Another person that is not either you or I walk into a school.  As she sits in the classroom she realizes she forgot her notebook.  She walks to the cafeteria where she realizes she is famished.  She goes to a buffet and sees several tasty treats.  She chooses a piece of cherry pie.  As she bites into it, she remembers when she was young, the pies her grandmother used to make.  This brings her back to memories of her childhood and things her grandmother (may have) taught her.

All these scenarios are possibilities of the same area- all three of us went to the same 'place'.  Each person has different cultural backgrounds and needs, and will experience the same 'place' differently, yet each one of them has identified it similarly.  Two of them interfaced with a 'being' 'there' who facilitated the information transfer, and the third person received the information from a 'buffet', and it was in the form of an immersive event- the flavor of the information packet brought back memories (download).

So you see three different ways of interpreting the same energetic event.

ahh okay that makes perfect sense. can there be a certain level of subjective perception though? if you were to have travelled to the same locale that i did, you probably would have perceived most of it as the same i take it. also, i'm pretty sure i was with someone else as well, but because i was focused on flying and reaching the star clusters, i didn't notice him/her. I just remember seeing someone in my peripherals. Although, I have also read upon this being 'guide' type entities.

[Summerlander]

Dream or astral projection or both? Whatever you want it to be, mate!

Well, check this out:

http://astralviewers.com/obeap-chat/science-meets-oobe/msg49048/?topicseen#new

[CFTraveler]

Summerlander, do you have any more articles from Dom de Gracia?  A few years ago I chanced upon an article he wrote about LDing and brainstates, and a few months ago I tried to look for it to no avail.  I have already read the pdf you quoted in another thread (I read it some time ago, when I was looking for it) but couldn't find it.  In it he describes how they used to test for REM and other things.
It's possible that this was a convo between deGracia and LaBerge, but I don't remember that clearly.  Old age sucks.

[NickisDank]

^

Great link that sums it up so well.

The only thing I have to question really now is why when you induce a nonphysical experience you see your body, but when you become lucid in a nonlucid experience you can go to wherever you fell asleep at last, and not see your body.


Which is exactly what I tried to do on my last lucid experience which was around an hour long it seemed. And that was about a month ago and I havent had anything since

[Summerlander]

Maybe because of the sense of movement you experience when you supposedly separate, your brain (particularly the hippocampus) memorises the point of reference from where you left i.e the physical body.

Subconsciously your mind assumes that that's where the body should be and creates a copy of it and a convincing replica of your bedroom from your subconscious.