So, after I accepted that after we die we eventually connect with our higher selves. What happens after that is less known but eventually you connect with an even higher self (some people say) and so on, until you reach the source. So then I thought, well that means I'm going to lose my personality, the person I am now. I have heard many people fear this and after a few days of thinking it became pretty clear to me the truth.
I look at it like this. If in the future they made a machine (virtual reality or something like that), where you could live an entire mock life in just a few days. The purpose of such machine could be so many things. for example, it could provide vast amounts of information, different perspectives, understanding... But for obvious reasons, in order to live this new life fully, you would have to forget your true personality until the experience was over. After your new life was over you would be brought back to reality and bring with you all the knowledge of your experience. Of course not many minds could handle that, but with proper training and belief system affirmations it would technically be possible. Anyways, that's exactly how I see the universe working. You don't lose your personality but go back to your old one. Now the new dilemma, would your old self be so changed that you would lose your old identity, which would be just as bad as losing this one now....
We are always changing, that is what propels growth. If we never changed we would also never learn, yet somehow we always keep an identity. I feel that this identity is constant and cannot be changed. Having memory of the past also protects us from this problem. Think about when you were 8 years old. Somehow you are the same person then and had that same sense of identity that you do now but you are totally and completely different. There is practically nothing the same about you then as there is now, yet your identity has been constant.
Sorry for the length. If the moderators feel that this is an obvious concept and that I am just stating the obvious, feel free to delete.
Peace
I've been thinking very similar about this
Well if you die, and then you're consumed by a spirit calling itself your 'higher self', then you pretty much ARE gone. I imagine only remnants of your memory would remain.
Lighten,
That is a great thought. I agree that we do not lose our sense of identiy, but it changes. We will all reconnect with the one source, but we are supposed to be mirror images of the one source now. The other thing is that a living human is incapable, at least at this point in time, of fully comprehending what this means. I think your explanation though is as good as any I have come across.
Lighten, I think that's a great question and one I've been pondering.
How much of our current identity do we lose or move beyond between lives? Do I 'return' to a baseline soul consciousness when I die? Personally, currently, I think the answer may be yes, based on my perceived 'mental' state when I project. I seem noticeably distant or disconnected from my current physical/mental/emotional/life status when I have an obe.
In my physical state, I sense an undercurrent of fear and loss of identity associated with obe and death.
How much of that is natural? I'm no longer that 8 year old boy; I've certainly left something behind, if not many things...how do I choose to characterize it? As something I've lost or something I've evolved into...?
With Obe and Death, what within me is fearing the transition? Is it the Ego described by Freud? To give it a name for reference, is the Ego that quasi-biological/metaphysical link that fears it's own extinction upon death? Maybe the Ego does get left behind, and it's scared and fighting for it's survival...
All the exit symptoms that we report early on in our attempts, aberrant noises, screams of 'No!', 'Stop!' and 'Don't do that!'...the lurking FEAR and shadowy, cloaked figures that all seem configured to divert our intention on projecting...is this all simply a manifestation of our Ego trying to desperately hold onto its position in our consciousness? Because we are about to leave it behind?
Just some thoughts.
I'm kinda curious... why does the prospect of losing your personality cause fear?
This can only be asked from someone who never thought about total emptiness.
Quote from: Lighten on February 02, 2009, 00:44:55
So, after I accepted that after we die we eventually connect with our higher selves. What happens after that is less known but eventually you connect with an even higher self (some people say) and so on, until you reach the source. So then I thought, well that means I'm going to lose my personality, the person I am now. I have heard many people fear this and after a few days of thinking it became pretty clear to me the truth.
I'm not a big fan of 'accepting' anything, especially when it's basically what other people say, I'm happy to accept it's a possibility and see where it makes sense to me. I know you are probably surprised at my words, considering I'm one of the first people to jump in and challenge what I consider closedmindedness- I'm just pointing out that it's not necessary to 'believe' this scenario, just accept the possibility- 'cause only the recently departed
know. The rest of us are just putting our experiences together in what seems a coherent theory to explain them.
QuoteI look at it like this. If in the future they made a machine (virtual reality or something like that), where you could live an entire mock life in just a few days. The purpose of such machine could be so many things. for example, it could provide vast amounts of information, different perspectives, understanding... But for obvious reasons, in order to live this new life fully, you would have to forget your true personality until the experience was over. After your new life was over you would be brought back to reality and bring with you all the knowledge of your experience. Of course not many minds could handle that, but with proper training and belief system affirmations it would technically be possible. Anyways, that's exactly how I see the universe working. You don't lose your personality but go back to your old one. Now the new dilemma, would your old self be so changed that you would lose your old identity, which would be just as bad as losing this one now....
I don't think you would lose the personality- because the personality is ever changing, even in one lifetime. But you said this in your next paragraph. :lol:
QuoteWe are always changing, that is what propels growth. If we never changed we would also never learn, yet somehow we always keep an identity. I feel that this identity is constant and cannot be changed. Having memory of the past also protects us from this problem. Think about when you were 8 years old. Somehow you are the same person then and had that same sense of identity that you do now but you are totally and completely different. There is practically nothing the same about you then as there is now, yet your identity has been constant.
I agree.
QuoteSorry for the length. If the moderators feel that this is an obvious concept and that I am just stating the obvious, feel free to delete.
Peace
I can't imagine why they would delete it.
You'd be surprised as to how many people don't see this concept.
An author (could have been Monroe, or Leland, I don't quite remember) said something similar- we tend to think our evolution is about going back to some sort of undifferentiated mass- but that wouldn't make sense, at least to me- there has to be a purpose in individuation (at least in my view) so part of evolving is bringing the experience of individuality to this wholeness- I think it was Monroe who said it was 'bringing consciousness to the collective unconscious'. I like the sound of this (for some reason.)
I'm not sure why I felt compelled to share, but I did.
CFT - I also don't accept anything as fact or truth, I just was just taking a certain side for concept explanation purposes.
Sounds good.
Quote from: Panthau on July 11, 2009, 12:00:15
This can only be asked from someone who never thought about total emptiness.
Are you referring to the OP or to my question?
If you're referring to my question, then... why is that?
Why do you think you require an idea of "total emptiness" to understand "losing your personality"?
Why should we fear the loss of our personalities?
CFTraveler, your quote
QuoteYou'd be surprised as to how many people don't see this concept.
An author (could have been Monroe, or Leland, I don't quite remember) said something similar- we tend to think our evolution is about going back to some sort of undifferentiated mass- but that wouldn't make sense, at least to me- there has to be a purpose in individuation (at least in my view) so part of evolving is bringing the experience of individuality to this wholeness- I think it was Monroe who said it was 'bringing consciousness to the collective unconscious'. I like the sound of this (for some reason.)
Yes, I am a VERY big supporter of just that way of thinking. What would be the point of individual thinking otherwise. The alternative makes absolutely NO sense to me in any way, shape or form.
Then again, there are Many things that make absolutely no sense (or little sense) (like most organized religions). So, to me, it ultimately comes down to believing the superiority and power of rational individual "thinking" consciousness over the blind "faith" - based group thinking of the religious masses .
This is indeed a difficult and complex idea so I hope to have put my thoughts about it in an understandable form.
Regards 8-)
Grey
QuoteWhy should we fear the loss of our personalities?
Well you must have a bad personality. =)
But in seriousness, I think we fear losing out personality because that is all that we have. All the culminations of our experiences, all of our thoughts, everything is just our personalities. To lose it would mean to stop existing. Why do we fear not existing? Well for me personally I would like to exist rather than not exist because of what Panthau said
QuoteThis can only be asked from someone who never thought about total emptiness
. This is true. Think about it.
Quote from: Lighten on July 18, 2009, 01:27:22
But in seriousness, I think we fear losing out personality because that is all that we have.
I think you mean 'persona'. Personality is a reaction to experience, persona is the construct you have created to interact with experiences and experienced.
QuoteAll the culminations of our experiences, all of our thoughts, everything is just our personalities.
No, it's our memories. Our personalities, because they constantly change, don't have any ultimate existence. However, our memories remain. So what we have is our memories, not our personalities.
QuoteTo lose it would mean to stop existing.
I disagree. The experiencer always exists, and the memories are there. What goes away is the ever-changing nature of physical life.
Before you had a personality (or even a persona) you were an observer and an experiencer. You will always be, because that is unchanging. In metaphysics, anyway.
So 'you' are not lost. Your memories are not lost- however, the part of you that teaches you how to act does go away, because there is no acting necessary any more.
um... what?
Personality as defined in the dictionary : "the complex of all the attributes--behavioral, temperamental, emotional and mental--that characterize a unique individual"
seccond definition of Personality "he totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior, that are peculiar to a specific person."
Persona : "a personal facade that one presents to the world"
I think you have the 2 mixed up some how.
so next time you want to sound smart by telling me what I mean, you should at least look the words up in the dictionary. Cant wait to see how you somehow argue this one.
A theory on the subject:
A 'higher self' sends a portion of its consciousness to be born in the physical. The self-experiences this portion of consciousness has conglomerates into an ego, who we call "I". Because of this we can say "I am". But this isn't really "you", it's a representation of your physical experiences. After death, the portion of consciousness filling the physical body returns to "higher self", bringing back with it the "ego" (no longer "I") to become integrated back into the whole.
yea, thats pretty much what I was saying
Quote from: Lighten on July 18, 2009, 01:27:22
Well you must have a bad personality. =)
It's rotten to the core. ;)
QuoteBut in seriousness, I think we fear losing out personality because that is all that we have. All the culminations of our experiences, all of our thoughts, everything is just our personalities. To lose it would mean to stop existing. Why do we fear not existing? Well for me personally I would like to exist rather than not exist because of what Panthau said.
I don't fear not existing.
It's just another thing to experience.
QuoteThis is true. Think about it.
It's
also not true. Think about that. :)
I don't think its possible to experience not existing... lol, I dont know, to much of a mind f**k for me!
Quote from: Lighten on July 19, 2009, 23:08:13
um... what?
Personality as defined in the dictionary : "the complex of all the attributes--behavioral, temperamental, emotional and mental--that characterize a unique individual"
seccond definition of Personality "he totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior, that are peculiar to a specific person."
Persona : "a personal facade that one presents to the world"
I think you have the 2 mixed up some how.
so next time you want to sound smart by telling me what I mean, you should at least look the words up in the dictionary. Cant wait to see how you somehow argue this one.
Dear Lighten:
I'm sorry you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say.
I'll try to make it clearer:
Just because personality is one cue others use to differentiate you from another person (other than appearance) doesn't mean it's 'you', since it changes with life experiences (as I said, as a reaction to life in general.) This is a given in much of medical literature. One such article would be this one: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3713-personality-changes-throughout-life.html
Here's another one: http://psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/making_personality_changes
http://www.focusing.org/personality_change.html
As to 'persona', the dictionary definition did not argue with what I said, it merely complemented it. I called it a 'construct', it said it's the face you show the world. So where's the conflict?
Now, you may cite dictionary definitions to try to prove a point- this shows me that your personality isn't fully formed yet, and you are still unhealthily attached to your opinions. But don't worry, when you grow up that'll change too.
I'm sorry you had to make it personal, especially not knowing me-
at all.
Fixed typo.
I'm sorry but your personality is created when you are young based on your agents of socialization and environmental factors. Your agents of socialization include your parents, friends and school and depending on the feedback you get from them your personality and frame of reference is created there are even some people who think personality later in life can change dramatically I believe it was Gerbner who said that the personal self when it came to the crunch would change in order to fit in. Think of it this way if instead of being born in America you were born in Asia your personality would be different based on your agents feedback and the frame of reference.
I don't believe in the Astral Plane we need a personality as in the real world its needed to make us unique and communicate our needs to society after all 'communication is a need'. So for those who are afraid of losing their personality I believe it was not there in the first place the core of the personality is created through our parents and the rest is ever changing through feedback. So the question arises what is me what is you? Maybe that's why we are removed from our higher selves so we can experience different personalities and gain different frames of references.
Darn. Tried to fix a typo and ended up quoting myself.
So basically what I gathered from these posts is that our higher self sends parts of it's energy into the physical worlds to experience things. Then all of the memories are absorbed back into your higher self again so that he can continue to grow and mature. I'm curious to know how long it takes once we die for us to realize that we aren't an independent being but must return to a higher form. Does a big energy being come down and say "Your soul is mine!".
I believe that we should be given a choice to return and have free will to travel around and experience more after we die. I don't see why our higher self would have to absorb us anyways. Maybe it could just connect to us and experience everything we have done here and then let us go on our way to grow and become an evolved being like him. Then one day in the future we will take a little piece of our big energy and send it to a physical world and allow it to experience and evolve. And maybe the cycle will continue until the end of time.
Quote from: kurtykurt42 on July 30, 2009, 21:38:56
So basically what I gathered from these posts is that our higher self sends parts of it's energy into the physical worlds to experience things. Then all of the memories are absorbed back into your higher self again so that he can continue to grow and mature. I'm curious to know how long it takes once we die for us to realize that we aren't an independent being but must return to a higher form. Does a big energy being come down and say "Your soul is mine!".
Only if you believe you are independent from the Higher Self. I see it as the HS being the whole being, and I being the experiencing part of it (like the eye or the hand), and the object is not necessarily to learn or grow, but to experience all that is possible in 3or 4 or 10D or however many dimensions physicists decide we live in.
QuoteI believe that we should be given a choice to return and have free will to travel around and experience more after we die.
I think we already do, which is why some people report 'having helpers' that end up being humans who decided to 'do other things'.
I
Quotedon't see why our higher self would have to absorb us anyways. Maybe it could just connect to us and experience everything we have done here and then let us go on our way to grow and become an evolved being like him.
In timespace this makes sense, but if the universe is not built that way, maybe we are our higher selves and are experiencing all this and what the 'astral/ in between' has to offer, but separately. So I'd say that what you describe is already happening, and when we AP we not only experience our unique perspective, but the perspective of those 'other' selves that are not really 'other'.
QuoteThen one day in the future we will take a little piece of our big energy and send it to a physical world and allow it to experience and evolve. And maybe the cycle will continue until the end of time.
That's kind of what the 'Parallel Lives' theories describe, we each experience individuality, while the HS experiences the whole shebang, all at the same time. Or some other description.
What happens after the physical universe goes bye-bye is to me the most interesting thing.
So do you think our higher self chooses which body it wants to put its consciousnesses in? Or is there a queue and all energy beings place a piece of there energy in it and wait until someone is born and then the energy is absorbed into a human child?
Great conversation, and I tend to agree with most of CFT's and Stookie's conjectures.
I'd like to add these thoughts: I think much of our present ego/personality does decay or at least diminish significantly when we transition and eventually return to/move closer to our Soul/Source. That doesn't negate the experiences we had, just the mental-emotional baggage that we picked up along the way; and to some degree, our present individuation.
I think it was a book by willy Sutphen that I first came upon the idea of several variations of Soul theory: Are we each individual souls? Are we each just one of many souls under the 'umbrella' of a Group Soul? Is each one of those souls an independent soul or just variations of Me, experiencing different lives/timelines? Or are we somehow related through the Group Soul? Is that Group Soul independent or simply one of many under the guidance of an OverSoul...and so on until finally the Source or the One?
So yes, somewhere along the way I start to have a little trepidation of just how much my present ego/identity survives along the way; on the other hand, I wouldn't mind a little Unity and Wholeness for a change.
My current OBE awareness appears to preclude any fear of total identity loss, but hey, that could be mistaken. Ultimately, there's not much I can do about it. Maybe.
The Buddhist philosophy seems to push towards purifying/cleansing the mind of egoistic desires and wants to the point of creating a Body of Light that one can step into instantly at the moment of death and without suffering a loss of consciousness and by doing so transcend into a higher state of being and transcending the Wheel of Karma/Rebirth. Probably easier said than done.
But just maybe, that's how another soul or soul extension is born or differentiated from the Soul Group? Maybe that's how we ultimately individuate?
And finally, like CFT pondered, what happens at the end? Do we all ultimately assimilate back to the One Source/God; the physical universe contracting down upon itself into an impossibly dense Singularity, only to explode again in another Big Bang? Or forever expanding outward?
I've read a ton of stuff written and lectured by the Austrian mystic Rudolph Steiner, and while I can't confirm or deny what he taught, it's mind-opening stuff.
His explanation of physical existence is that while physical, we have 4 main parts on 4 main levels (each broken down indefinitely). Physical body on the physical plane, etheric body on the etheric, astral on the astral, and our Ego, which we're to eventually transform. All 4 parts are dependent on each other and constantly work together. He says that while we inhabit the physical, we're pretty much confined to those levels, but through our own development we can transform the Ego, perhaps into what the Buddhists call the Body of Light (as Escape Velocity mentioned). Not until then can we really start to explore beyond the astral and experience "being" our higher selves rather than just as an individual ego.
Perhaps until then, we keep coming back and gathering new information and experiences until we can get it right. I don't know exactly why our higher selves would need this experience, but I suppose that's not something for "I" to know.
One last thing: I've had an experience of viewing my not just my physical life, but the physical plane from "outside", and it was absolutely the most crushing experience I ever had. There was a huge disappointment to see that my life & universe was just a minute infinitesimally small drop in the bucket compared to the infiniteness of consciousness, pretty much not even real, just some simple 20 second dream in comparison. I suppose crushing to my ego. And maybe that's what I was to realize - my life is not "me".
In the end I don't have an answer, just ideas and a load of uncertainty, and that's what keeps me pushing forward and pondering this stuff.