How do you know if any of this is real?

[CFTraveler]

I think you have taken my post completely out of context. I have never once used the phrase 'socially acceptable'. I agree forums like these are about expressing our opinions, and sharing knowledge – have I ever refuted that? Perhaps I alluded to the fact that people also share their explanations too. For example, a teenager has been having strange experiences out of body, I would happily bet that within a few weeks on an AP forum they would be attributing their OBEs to energy bodies, and have integrated the astral into their belief system etc. This was my point. No one questions this knowledge, yet they are happy to throw away knowledge from other sources. If one is indoctrinated in any form to an area of knowledge, their experiences ion the astral will, to an extent, reinforce that knowledge. So are they seeing truth or are they seeing what they believed they would see?
When I said when do we say 'enough is enough' I meant enough of taking on blinding belief systems whose roots lie in a past where man had a seriously misguided view of self and the world.

I'm sorry.  I apologize for that.  I think I overreacted due to another post someone else made on another forum regarding people being allowed to express their opinions while ignoring hers.  Sorry for projecting it unto you. (no pun intended.)  :sorry2:

[MisterJingo]

I think you have taken my post completely out of context. I have never once used the phrase 'socially acceptable'. I agree forums like these are about expressing our opinions, and sharing knowledge – have I ever refuted that? Perhaps I alluded to the fact that people also share their explanations too. For example, a teenager has been having strange experiences out of body, I would happily bet that within a few weeks on an AP forum they would be attributing their OBEs to energy bodies, and have integrated the astral into their belief system etc. This was my point. No one questions this knowledge, yet they are happy to throw away knowledge from other sources. If one is indoctrinated in any form to an area of knowledge, their experiences ion the astral will, to an extent, reinforce that knowledge. So are they seeing truth or are they seeing what they believed they would see?
When I said when do we say 'enough is enough' I meant enough of taking on blinding belief systems whose roots lie in a past where man had a seriously misguided view of self and the world.

I'm sorry.  I apologize for that.  I think I overreacted due to another post someone else made on another forum regarding people being allowed to express their opinions while ignoring hers.  Sorry for projecting it unto you. (no pun intended.)  :sorry2:

hehe it's ok . I was perhaps a bit 'grumpy' in the post you were replying to so should apologise for that too.

[nicedreams]

I guess I err on the side of science because it at least allows for a common framework and the possibility of answers

MisterJingo, I feel there is some work in this vein going on, albeit slowly and pretty much under the radar. But due to the nature of OBEs, I feel there are other ways (besides waiting for a scientific study to come out) to verify some of these things. For instance, Frank said:

What has happened is the primary thrust of my work on the Astral Pulse has changed to the extent where my priority now is to teach people the Phasing Approach (those that want to, obviously) so we can get projecting and hopefully meet up within Focus 3 of consciousness.

I still want to reach this goal. I think it's possible that you and I (and others) could meet in Focus 3 and verify details of the experience with as much clarity as if we had met in a coffee shop down the road in physical life.

As soon as you are able to reach F3 on purpose, please let me know.

I will try as well[

How do you get to Focus 3 and how will i know its focus 3 will i be able to ask someone when i am there

[Tombo]

All I know is there

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18538&highlight=

[mactombs]

Thanks for the link, Tombo.

So far, F2 to the 3D Blackness is as far as I go. I'm still working on solidifying the conscious transition to F2, and having enough awareness once I get there that it doesn't slip away and I have to come back for fear of falling asleep.

As soon as I have some F3 experience, I'll post again and let you know. Anyone else who gets to F3, please do the same.  Also, let me know if the "slats" Frank talks about are a good way for you to tune out of F2 to make the switch, or if you find another way that works better for you.

[Tombo]

Thanks for the link, Tombo.

So far, F2 to the 3D Blackness is as far as I go. I'm still working on solidifying the conscious transition to F2, and having enough awareness once I get there that it doesn't slip away and I have to come back for fear of falling asleep.

As soon as I have some F3 experience, I'll post again and let you know. Anyone else who gets to F3, please do the same.  Also, let me know if the "slats" Frank talks about are a good way for you to tune out of F2 to make the switch, or if you find another way that works better for you.

The slats seem a good way to detune from F2 for me. The transition from 3D Blackness to F3 is were I'm stuck. I usually wake up from the Blackness rather then seeing a door or alike to transit to F3. Maybe it is a subc. protection mechansim or something that is preventing it or maybe I just don't have enough practice.......

Regards Tom

[mactombs]

The slats seem a good way to detune from F2 for me. The transition from 3D Blackness to F3 is were I'm stuck.

Well, you might be stuck, but still ... nice! How comfortable are you with conciously reaching FoC2 and 3D Blackness (FZ)? I still have some practice to put in before I can comfortably say I can reach it every practice. But we might be able to start a sort of Focus Group in FoC3 sooner than I thought ...    

Are you reaching FoC2 with a rundown? I'm doing progressive relaxation, focusing on relaxing every muscle, and then near Monroe's F10, switching to a rundown, or just observing to get to FoC2. I still need to stabilize in FoC2 before I can reliably detune to FZ. I always thought once I could consistently get to FZ, FoC3 would be a snap ...

[Tombo]

Well, you might be stuck, but still ... nice! How comfortable are you with conciously reaching FoC2 and 3D Blackness (FZ)? I still have some practice to put in before I can comfortably say I can reach it every practice. But we might be able to start a sort of Focus Group in FoC3 sooner than I thought ...    

Are you reaching FoC2 with a rundown? I'm doing progressive relaxation, focusing on relaxing every muscle, and then near Monroe's F10, switching to a rundown, or just observing to get to FoC2. I still need to stabilize in FoC2 before I can reliably detune to FZ. I always thought once I could consistently get to FZ, FoC3 would be a snap ...

Well don't overestimate me

I either go to F2 by

-Lucid dreaming, which has it's problems I guess ( e.q getting a clear consciousness and not slipping back to dreams) This is actually my main method but I think in the long run you might be more successful with the rundown. I'm a bit lazy and and not very good with relaxation thats why I prefer LD Well we see, I still believe it is possible to attain full consciousness thru LD though.

- Or I might lay down in the morning after 6-8 hours of sleep and observe my self drifting back to sleep. This way I induce a direct consciousness transition from F1->F2

I'm a bit lazy lately, somebody (e.g YOU!) reporting that he can reach F3 on purpose certainly would give me a boost

[Donal]

I'll try to get out of this focus first!

[Tombo]

I'm really not sure if brain creates consciousness. But I can't ignore all the work done in neurology which shows how various brain areas are related to cognitive functions and memory, sensation, etc. Look at brain damaged people, they suffer impairments from mild to pretty extreme – so we cannot deny the brain plays a major (if not total) role in what we are. People might argue that the brain is a receiver and parts of the receiver are damaged – but as yet this is purely belief to hold on to a belief system about the brain.

well there are the reports from People being out of Body while having a NDE and then conforming real events they couldn't possible known. A friend of mine friend did as well. This may not be scientific proof but it is certainly a strong hint that our understanding of consciousness is not complete.

Then there are also the numerous reincarnation reports and studies. I'm not really into it but I believe reincarnation is more or less a proven facts.

No NDE has been recorded in a brain dead person. Brain activity can still be recorded in the core brain for weeks after 'death'. What this means I really don't know. But all NDEs to date happen within seconds/minutes of heart stopping, and their brain still functioning pretty normally.

is that really so? Sure it is possible that a core part of the brain still functions and is generating the NDE. But saying that a flat EEQ is a brain still functioning pretty normally. I don't know what brain experts would say to that. I doubt they would say that though..........

I agree with this to an extent. I am more perhaps of the belief we cannot know what exactly is outside of us. Reality as we perceive it might be interference patterns interpreted as what we see now (i.e. hologram). I once had an experience where I perceived myself to be like a circular organ attached by nerves and veins to a larger body. Everyone was this kind of organ, forever attached to this larger body for survival – yet the nerves running into us fed us what we perceived to be external stimuli – so rather than this senseless object, we perceived ourselves to be humanoid and living in a rich environment (reality).

Thats is a bit creepy.

To an extent. But there are a lot of theories regarding NDEs and DMT release into the brain (DMT is a psychedelic which creates OBEs in its users and is produced by the brain).

I don't doubt that the brain plays a mayor role, but all thios theories can not explain any psychic happenings during NDE. And as fas as I'm informed there are plenty of them.

But as yet, nothing what-so-ever indicates they are more than the brain. And this is what frustrates me. We have many gurus who I shan't name release books every few years, yet they cannot be bothered to at least provide some proof of this phenomenon (which they could easily do if the stories they tell are true).

That is true and frustrates me as well, but as I said above I think there are in fact hints that show that NDE are not generated by the brain.




T

he idea I presented has some plausibility. For instance, psychedelic users can experience a feeling of timelessness – in many instances I have literally lived decades in the space of minutes while on very high doses of psychedelics. it can really impair subjective time perception.

I don't doubt that and it is interesting indeed, But it does not really prove in any way that the brain creates all of this. Maybe the drugs just loosen the connection between the brain and spirit or they alter the download process into the brain?

I cannot see why evolution hasn't prepared us for death, so as our body nears it, it might release massive amount of DMT into our brain which creates a drastic slowing of time – and we perceive ourselves to leave our body and move into a joyous afterlife etc. Perhaps oblivion occurring when our afterlife adventure takes us to the source (which would mean oblivion as far as we are concerned).

Can't follow your argument here. Why should evolution care about that? evolution should only care about the passing on of your genes. Why should a subjective eternal life in a dying Body help that process?

Take care Tom

[Tombo]

Sorry for the double posts there seems to be a malfunction

[MisterJingo]

well there are the reports from People being out of Body while having a NDE and then conforming real events they couldn't possible known. A friend of mine friend did as well. This may not be scientific proof but it is certainly a strong hint that our understanding of consciousness is not complete.

Then there are also the numerous reincarnation reports and studies. I'm not really into it but I believe reincarnation is more or less a proven facts.

Agree with the NDE experiences, which is why I would love for more research to be done here. But we cannot ignore the fact that people who experience NDEs/OBEs still have a living functional brain.
Regarding reincarnation, there are some very interesting stories regarding this, but all we can say is that some knowledge seems to transfer from one person to another – what mode of action this transfer takes I have no idea (I have some theories though).

is that really so? Sure it is possible that a core part of the brain still functions and is generating the NDE. But saying that a flat EEQ is a brain still functioning pretty normally. I don't know what brain experts would say to that. I doubt they would say that though..........

What I meant was that NDEs all happen within minutes of 'death' (when their brain is still firing as normal). There have been no reports of someone being dead for hours and having an NDE lasting all that time etc. Even more so, people in comas generally experience nothing, rather than having OOB adventures.

I don't doubt that the brain plays a mayor role, but all thios theories can not explain any psychic happenings during NDE. And as fas as I'm informed there are plenty of them.

I agree. But I also think the spiritual explanations people create to explain these happenings don't help us discover what is going on in the long term, they might even impede our view so we miss what is happening.

That is true and frustrates me as well, but as I said above I think there are in fact hints that show that NDE are not generated by the brain.

But we have no evidence that NDEs are not created by the brain either. All we know for certain is that NDEs occur when the brain in functioning correctly.

I don't doubt that and it is interesting indeed, But it does not really prove in any way that the brain creates all of this. Maybe the drugs just loosen the connection between the brain and spirit or they alter the download process into the brain?

I didn't say it proves the brain creates it, just that there is direct examples of similar things which are created by the brain i.e. so it wouldn't be outside of the brain ability to create such things.
Regarding the brain loosening the connection between brain and spirit, this is looking at it from a desirable belief system – and this is what I meant earlier by having our view clouded by belief. Robert Bruce and Robert Monroe both reached a point where they dropped all belief systems in favour of knowns. They both found they really knew very little, but doing this freed them to find truths.
My belief in astral realms, in reincarnation, in the spirit/brain separation etc is all the belief of others that I have taken on from reading books etc. They also took these beliefs on from others etc. When we enter the astral with beliefs and expectations, those beliefs and expectations are met. I want to see past this to what is truly happening.
So rather than theorising that these drugs create a loosening of sprit/brain (pure belief with not even personal evidence), I now see how the brain an create similar experiences in a natural way – and then wonder what that means for NDE/OBEs as a whole. This in no way means OBEs/NDEs are a product of the brain, but by seeing clearly, without trying to explain away things in terms of belief structures, we might get somewhere.

Can't follow your argument here. Why should evolution care about that? evolution should only care about the passing on of your genes. Why should a subjective eternal life in a dying Body help that process?

The subjective existence might simply be the by product of an evolved mind and large DMT release in the brain. DMT release might be used when the body is under extreme trauma, and it helps by producing euphoria, and calms down the dieing being. This might have an evolutionary benefit, as one near death does not always die, and being calm when the body is coping with trauma is perhaps better than panicking and hindering any attempts at healing etc. Please note this is all conjecture (which I just theorised based on your question)

I would love for impartial studies to be done (impartial from negative and positive belief structures regarding OBEs and what they mean), with just the direct evidence considered, rather than the evidence in terms of an unsupported belief system.


Ps I'm working on something now which might go a little way towards this.

[Donal]

Hi MJ

Agree with the NDE experiences, which is why I would love for more research to be done here. But we cannot ignore the fact that people who experience NDEs/OBEs still have a living functional brain.

I disagree, because there are "core processes" still operating in the brain does not mean you still have  a fully functioning one. According to the EEG meter, when your brains electrical activity is displayed, memory and having experience is working fine. With the brain activity so low as to not appear on the EEG, I dobut it is possible of producing such an experience. People who experience NDE's have a clear and an amazing experience.

The brain running in "core mode" could have a useless meaning for all we know, we do not know if it even operates properly in that mode (or is repsonsible for these experiences). Maybe it is just the brain slowing alll the electrical activity down after it's been going all your life? Maybe when (duing a NDE) you make a choice of not coming back or not. Maybe the brain remains in this core mode to allow the option of coming back? I think you have to examine NDE's from an afterlife perspective too, and not solely on the dying brain.

And if the NDE is the effect of a dying brain how come it doesn't happen to everyone who is dying. Why is it that not all of those who are near death whose brain is 'dying' experience a NDE?

And also there are many accounts of people having near death experiences returning with factual information which they had no prior knowledge of. These include being able to identify ancestors from pictures, learning about siblings who had died before their own birth, learning about family secrets etc. Others were able to document information they had learned about future events (see for example Eadie 1992, Brinkley 1994).

And I don't think the idea of the brain downloading information is entirely belief, people place these views on their experiences, they don't just make them up without reasoning. People can get information from elsewhere, ie remote viewing, which simply cannot be functioned directly by the brain, the idea is plausible and it can explain phenomena.

Also, I think consciousness is fundamental to the questions we are proposing here, and this is a feat western medicine has not examined closely. I think they even totally avoided it when calculating these "up to date" neurology theories. Study quantum physics for an explanation of consciousness. This field adds an entirely new idea to neurology in proving that consciousness is not solely a product of the brain.

And if the NDE is true, it has non-physical implications. We are getting nowhere with these experiements only going by physical means. We are a LONG way from forming a true hypothesis

[MisterJingo]

I disagree, because there are "core processes" still operating in the brain does not mean you still have a fully functioning one. According to the EEG meter, when your brains electrical activity is displayed, memory and having experience is working fine. With the brain activity so low as to not appear on the EEG, I dobut it is possible of producing such an experience. People who experience NDE's have a clear and an amazing experience.

The brain running in "core mode" could have a useless meaning for all we know, we do not know if it even operates properly in that mode (or is repsonsible for these experiences). Maybe it is just the brain slowing alll the electrical activity down after it's been going all your life? Maybe when (duing a NDE) you make a choice of not coming back or not. Maybe the brain remains in this core mode to allow the option of coming back? I think you have to examine NDE's from an afterlife perspective too, and not solely on the dying brain.

Hi Donal, could you point me anywhere which has documented people experiencing NDEs during times when full brain activity wasn't present?
All reports I've read occur during surgery, or during accidents/heart attacks etc which are times when all brain activity is present.

And if the NDE is the effect of a dying brain how come it doesn't happen to everyone who is dying. Why is it that not all of those who are near death whose brain is 'dying' experience a NDE?

I've no idea. But then not everyone who dreams every night remembers their dreams, and if we believe the AP literature, everyone OBEs every night, but only few remember that too. I think this might be to do with something called state specific memory – that is, they might experience NDEs (Such as people dream every night) but they simply don't recall the memories of it in baseline consciousness.

And also there are many accounts of people having near death experiences returning with factual information which they had no prior knowledge of. These include being able to identify ancestors from pictures, learning about siblings who had died before their own birth, learning about family secrets etc. Others were able to document information they had learned about future events (see for example Eadie 1992, Brinkley 1994).

I agree. There are many interesting examples of this, but this isn't proof of life after death. We still have a lot to learn about the body, brain and even how information is passed on genetically – so until there is conclusive proof either way, we really just don't know.

And I don't think the idea of the brain downloading information is entirely belief, people place these views on their experiences, they don't just make them up without reasoning. People can get information from elsewhere, ie remote viewing, which simply cannot be functioned directly by the brain, the idea is plausible and it can explain phenomena.

Our view of the astral has little changed in a very long time. People who get into AP now are generally told a lot of 'facts' of what AP means and how it relates to reality. Having this knowledge available to them will make it possible that their belief interprets any experience within the framework of this knowledge. The only really different recent AP information was produced by Robert Monroe who wasn't filled with Dogma during the first stages of his OBE explorations – it's interesting that one recent example of not having expectations produced vividly different experiences to other people operating within the 'standard astral beliefs'.
I've never denied people can get knowledge from elsewhere, just stated that any time such action occurs, the people involved have a fully functional living brain – as yet, we don't really fully know what the brain is capable of.

Also, I think consciousness is fundamental to the questions we are proposing here, and this is a feat western medicine has not examined closely. I think they even totally avoided it when calculating these "up to date" neurology theories. Study quantum physics for an explanation of consciousness. This field adds an entirely new idea to neurology in proving that consciousness is not solely a product of the brain.

What areas of quantum physics are you referring to? I ask as it is currently is outside of our ability to use quantum theory to model such things as the expansion of an elastic band, let alone describe the intricacies of consciousness. The only time you hear people refer to quantum mechanics and consciousness are generally people pushing belief systems, and they are using a grossly misunderstood version of quantum theory to attempt to give their theories a basis in science.
There has been some theorising about quantum action in the brain, but as yet, this is pure conjecture.

And if the NDE is true, it has non-physical implications. We are getting nowhere with these experiements only going by physical means. We are a LONG way from forming a true hypothesis  

NDE has only possible non-physical implications. The act of having an NDE in every case has had a fully working brain.
What other means can we go by other than physical? Unless you mean NDEs/OBEs are pure imagination created, i.e. we can't measure a fantasy, only the electrical activity of the fantasy in the brain (and I'm sure you didn't mean this) then this phenomena can be studied by the fact a 'physical' brain can experience it, and if you follow such philosophies, the astral body interfaces with the physical. If something can have effect on physical material, it will be detectable.

[malganis]

a very interesting thread. I'm more keen to the belief that conscience is outside of the brain and not produced by it. I wont go more into detail as it has been already said enough about that.

I just wanted to bring some attention to the direct voice phenomena as noone has mentioned it. I cannot really say that is a definite proof for afterlife but its a strong one imo.

http://www.astralpulse.com/directvoicerecordings.html

[MisterJingo]

a very interesting thread. I'm more keen to the belief that conscience is outside of the brain and not produced by it. I wont go more into detail as it has been already said enough about that.

I think most people are . I would think the idea of death equating to oblivion isn't very appealing to many. But I guess I would like to find out either way regardless of which I desire to be true.

I just wanted to bring some attention to the direct voice phenomena as noone has mentioned it. I cannot really say that is a definite proof for afterlife but its a strong one imo.

http://www.astralpulse.com/directvoicerecordings.html

I'll take a look through this when i have time .

[CFTraveler]

Chris wrote:

I would think the idea of death equating to oblivion isn't very appealing to many. But I guess I would like to find out either way regardless of which I desire to be true.

We're all going to find out one way or another.  :angel:

[MisterJingo]

Chris wrote:

I would think the idea of death equating to oblivion isn't very appealing to many. But I guess I would like to find out either way regardless of which I desire to be true.

We're all going to find out one way or another.  :angel:

hehe yeah . This does sometimes bring me to the thought of why do we try so hard in this life to project/consistently project, when we might be permenantly projecting before long .

[kiwibonga]

Where did the original poster run off to anyway?

[Donal]

I think with the brain activity still operating during a NDE, that is because people are still alive to report back! People who permanently died may have experienced an NDE, but they completed it, and so they didn't come back. During NDE's people come out of their body and enter through a tunnel, they see the surgery before and afterhand. How come the NDE didn't last longer than that? Like until their brains core processes went completely dead. (if NDE's are produced by the brain that is)

You have to remember that there is such thing as materialisation mediums, and I think they prove conclusive evidence of the afterlife. If we go off this, that a person does in fact survive death, then the brain still operating on a dead EEG doesn't hold much function.

[Tombo]

I agree. But I also think the spiritual explanations people create to explain these happenings don't help us discover what is going on in the long term, they might even impede our view so we miss what is happening.

Maybe maybe not. It is also possible that our logical thinking and our materialistic world view does impede our view!

I didn't say it proves the brain creates it, just that there is direct examples of similar things which are created by the brain i.e. so it wouldn't be outside of the brain ability to create such things.

You can't be sure that the brain creates this, just that the brain plays a role in the process.

Regarding the brain loosening the connection between brain and spirit, this is looking at it from a desirable belief system – and this is what I meant earlier by having our view clouded by belief. Robert Bruce and Robert Monroe both reached a point where they dropped all belief systems in favour of knowns. They both found they really knew very little, but doing this freed them to find truths.

Thats was just an alternative idea to show that there are different explantions.

My belief in astral realms, in reincarnation, in the spirit/brain separation etc is all the belief of others that I have taken on from reading books etc. They also took these beliefs on from others etc. When we enter the astral with beliefs and expectations, those beliefs and expectations are met. I want to see past this to what is truly happening.
So rather than theorising that these drugs create a loosening of sprit/brain (pure belief with not even personal evidence), I now see how the brain an create similar experiences in a natural way

I agree partly with you but not about the "brain".  See shamans also use drugs to have soul journeys but still they don't conclude that it is all created by the brain. So your conclusion also is not based on facts but on believes.  the view that the hard science methods applied by western culture is better suitable to reveal the real nature of the world then other  approches is also a believe. This may be hard to accept, it is hard to accept for me but.........

But I agree with you that from a scientific viewpoint there may be more things pointing to the brain then away from it. i also admitt that I don't want the brain to be the creater of all this  so my view is really not neutral.

But  if something paranormal happens scientists search for explantions that fit with their view and sooner or later they will find something and vica versa it is really hard to remain neutral!

[MisterJingo]

Maybe maybe not. It is also possible that our logical thinking and our materialistic world view does impede our view!

I agree. But so far logical thinking has provided us with what you see around you now (including the PC we are using to discuss) whereas belief and experience which can't even remotely be consistently shared with others has just brought us personal experiences and little more. I don't think sciences view is inherently materialistic as much of what science works with today is definitely not material, and was outside the scope of scientists a few hundred years ago.

You can't be sure that the brain creates this, just that the brain plays a role in the process.

I agree. But this is the same for the view that the mind is more than the brain. It's a meme which has spread down the ages with nothing to substantiate it (other than personal experience – which is not conclusive in itself) – yet it is used as an argument point.

Thats was just an alternative idea to show that there are different explantions.

What I meant is that we could create an infinite amount of reasons for anything if we don't require any form of reproducible, substantial proof to back it up. But this doesn't mean any reason we create has any form of reality outside of ourselves.

I agree partly with you but not about the "brain". See shamans also use drugs to have soul journeys but still they don't conclude that it is all created by the brain. So your conclusion also is not based on facts but on believes. the view that the hard science methods applied by western culture is better suitable to reveal the real nature of the world then other approches is also a believe. This may be hard to accept, it is hard to accept for me but.........

I'm not sure I agree with this, as until recently, western culture was no different in believing more duellist views of mind/brain. I think this is partly due to indoctrination of such beliefs (as happens now) and little to no knowledge about the brain at all.
For example, if we had no knowledge of the functions of the brain, I think we all would view consciousness as more than matter produced. Its only the recent cutting edge science of the brain which has made us start to question this.
If I hadn't read all the things on neurology that I have (things which have shown their worth through medical procedure saving countless lives), then I would still happily be holding a duellist view of reality. Now I am uncertain, so I question.

But I agree with you that from a scientific viewpoint there may be more things pointing to the brain then away from it. i also admitt that I don't want the brain to be the creater of all this so my view is really not neutral.

I agree. The idea that we are products of our brain is quite horrific really – but I guess I want to learn 'the truth' regardless of my fears.

But if something paranormal happens scientists search for explantions that fit with their view and sooner or later they will find something and vica versa it is really hard to remain neutral!

I somewhat agree. A scientific theory generally has to be reproducible to be accepted as accurate, and if a scientific theory was produced which could explain and reproduce something we once took to be paranormal – would this be science 'explaining away' the phenomenon, or would it be science actually finding an explanation other than 'ours' for the phenomenon?

I think it comes down to me wondering why, if I have projection experiences, they have to mean life after death, they have to mean I have energy bodies, I have chakras, that I am an inhabitant of an astral world currently inhabiting a belief system to learn lessons etc. I know none of this directly, so why should I just buy into it without question? (For me at least, it just doesn't 'feel' right). I only experienced 'the vibrations' before I read about all this stuff, and it wasn't until I started to believe about 'silver cords' etc that I actually saw them. My experiences before that had nothing of the sort. So it seemed to suggest my increasing belief in these philosophies was actually creating them, rather than them being inherently true.
This is why I want to strip away the dogma and unfounded belief (in me at least) and really see what is there – look at things without even deep unconscious programming getting in the way.

[Donal]

If we went through time, studying things like the western view of the brain, how would we know that the planet revolves, with nothing short of us turning it outselves proving that?

I think neurology is just assumption.

[MisterJingo]

If we went through time, studying things like the western view of the brain, how would we know that the planet revolves, with nothing short of us turning it outselves proving that?

I think neurology is just assumption.

It was science which told us the planet revolves, rather than the 'spiritual' view of the past which stated the sun, planets, and everything else revolved around the flat Earth (in the western view, it was all encased in a crystal dome). If it wasn't for science questioning the dogma of the time we would no doubt still hold that view.
I think neurology is more than assumption – unless you believe neurosurgeons just poke about in people's heads and cure things through pure luck?

[Donal]

Sorry, what I meant is neurology is just an assumption about consciousness and that stuff. A person has a NDE and they automatically think it is a problem with the brain, avoiding the profound experience it was on the individual, rather than some hazard that they can hardly remember.

Also about the brains core processes, if memory is a thing of the brain, do you not think that it would be affected at all with the brain running much less than it's optimal capacity? When people go throught the tunnel they see, let's say Jesus, they can remember him in vivid detail, and their passed away relatives too. This all points to consciousness still operating at full capacity, a feat which I think would be impossible if it was produced by the brain, because the brain would be in disarray IMO when it's electrical activity cannot even be sensed on the EEG.

Also, what do you think of the eastern philosophies? Like we discussed the western but the east hold interesting ones aswell, like Buddhism for example. (plus if we have ET's they might have some too )