Hi all
I have a friend who is interested in OBEs - he has an open mind but the other day he asked me "how do you know you weren't dreaming?". I couldn't say much at the time because we were having lunch in a crowded place; but I would like to explain it to him properly at some point.
If you were me, how would you explain it to him?
All ideas welcome!
Venus :-D
Return everything with a question back to him...
Like: "Tell me what a DREAM is...?" And so forth...
thanks old dood.
anyone else?
Buy him a book. Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce would be a good one it's almost like an encyclopedia for AP.
For someone who hasn't experienced it, he has a valid question. Even if it is just a dream, it's the most fascinating & realistic dream ever, and still worth the effort. And trying to find out exactly how real it is can be fun too.
But if he doesn't feel compelled, maybe it's not for him.
Venus,
I would start by explaing a lucid dream first, and then describe an OBE.
More specifically, I would explain that when you are dreaming everything simply 'happens' and you are more observer than participant. In the case of either OBE's or lucid dreams there is intentionality; you cause things to happen moment-by-moment, exactly as you do in an 'awake' state.
Vitruvian
If he will only listen to scientific evidence, then first explain to him what autoscopy is.... which is the scientific term for the apparent experience of being outside of one's physical body. Then tell him that neuroscientists still do not know how to explain autoscopy or the OBE or NDE. They have theories as to causes, but not actually what happens in the brain. You could show him evidence like Tart's experiments, and the Dutch OBE experiments which support that OBEs are not dreams or made up in the brain. Also, there exists evidence that supports the theory that human consciousness is not created by, but simply stored in and using the physical brain... (holographic universe, and holographic brain theory) and if it is not created by the brain then it must be able to exist outside of it.
This way you kind of introduce him to it scientifically and then open the door for him to the possibility that it is beyond what science can explain.
Venus,
I will offer my .2 on the matter since I have been at this for sometime now..:)
The question your friend asks "is it a dream or is it real?". These questions are asked by every single human being here on earth, no one is different and we are all in the same boat of arriving at our own validation.
I have taken a FAQ from my web-site and will include this for you to review and communicate back to your friend.
This faq will be based on a skeptical view, validation, and comparison between dream and obe.
Please consider that this is not the final word, or can even come close to the research, work, time, patience, and experience involved to theorize. One just has to educate themselves and experience the OBE in it's truest, rawest nature.
Enjoy, and hope this helps!
Tvos
• What are your thoughts about skeptics and their views?
I totally respect the views of skeptics—trying to prove that the out-of-body experience is false memories, hallucinatory, and generated in the brain. It's always good to be objective towards this field of study. However, we should keep an open mind and not be quick to judge either.
What motivates a person to be passionate about ones work, research, study, and helping the community through spirituality, shouldn't be judged. The skeptic is all about judgment, negativity, and proving the person's ability false when it's based on personal experience. I do agree that, if there is a false spiritualist who is taking advantage of people and their hard earned money, that individual should be exposed as fraud. But one should not capitalize on one moment where the spiritualist was inaccurate with information or personal experience.
This is an area that is based on personal experience for each and every one of us. I, personally, can document, narrate and validate all of my experiences and 'preach to the choir', but it comes down to the one person: you—actually taking the initiative to experience the OBE. If the medical or scientific community can't explain the out-of-body or near- death experience, but can only 'attempt' to theorize, how can the skeptic even begin? Here are a few examples of the NDE/OBE to seriously think about:
Example 1: How do you explain the near-death experience of Pam Reynolds? During an operation to remove a tumor, she was able to accurately describe external events while she was in an out-of-body state. During her operation, Pam had no brain wave activity or other vital signs for over an hour.
Example 2: How do you explain a woman, who has been blind since birth, who has a near-death experience and is able to see? Not only is she able to view her body, she can see shapes, size, color, light, darkness, faces, and is also able to give accurate testimony that provides validation.
You can view the PDF files of Pam Reynolds and Vicky Noratuk in the APFaqs folder.
The skeptics do not have the multitude of OBEs, validations, static consistency of coincidence or synchronicities, and precognitive experiences. I've firsthand experience and taken the time to educate myself about faith, spirituality and world religions. How can you claim that this is all generated in the brain when you have never had a full wide awaked induced out-of-body or near-death experience?
Statistically speaking, the majority of religious and spiritual belief systems throughout the world are based on the faith and conviction that there is a spiritual rebirth after physical death. If the majority of the world believes in a divine creator—by whatever name one may call it—what credibility does the skeptic have in this? Why would I want to listen to a skeptic speaking in negative denials when I can be open, enhance my life, learn to love others and help the global community?
• Does the OBE prove that there is life after death?
Personally, I'd say yes! For the person who has taken the time, gone through the process to validate, has had field experience, and has faith in God, there is no question. It's plain and simple; go the distance and do the work!
• How can you tell an OBE from a lucid dream?
One can tell by the level of awareness, the mechanics of the exit during the projection, validation, precognitive experience, etc. The OBE state reality is static and not dynamic. There's a sparkle, magical, beauty to the astral world during the OBE. The memory is clear as to specific details—being able to recall the beginning, middle and end points of the experience that last for years. This also provides a clear distinction between an OBE and hallucinations, which fade quickly over time and which are not clear and coherent as an OBE is.
Being witness to seeing your physical body, while in the OBE state, is a good sign. Another key factor is the amount of time to enter the trance state and have the OBE. On record, I've been able to enter the trance state within 15-30 minutes and then project. In REM sleep, dreaming begins in sleep cycle 4 and 5—about 1.5 hours after the body has been asleep.
In a few OBEs, I noticed that at the time I was completely alert, conscious, and aware. I started to *daydream* which caught flight and when I momentarily snapped out of that daydream, I still found myself in the same environment,time,space etc. So I tested indepth daydreaming during the OBE and found it just like physical day dream. One moment you can be in a conversation with a friend via phone, and a few seconds later day dreaming of a vacation in the cayman islands but still in the conversation. The principle still remains on the other-side while in the OBE.
Thank you so much everyone! There's always great energy and teamwork in this place - I can always count on you!
:-D
I would explain that the IBE is created by the senses, and that the OBE is every bit as natural as far as consciousness is concerned.
Quote from: The Present Moment on August 07, 2008, 00:20:24
I would explain that the IBE is created by the senses, and that the OBE is every bit as natural as far as consciousness is concerned.
I think you meant "OBE" instead of "IBE" correct?
Anyways, as I stated in my post - the OBE / NDE go farther then just "senses" that are created by our bodies. This is the one thing that when people who guess, offer their oppinnions based on text book theories, the wrong conclusions are drawn. There is so much that science, medicine do not understand, even where consciousness begins or ends. Not saying that having the OBE weekly on a consistent yearly basis can touch explanation either.. there is something greater behind the curtain and the wizard is called "God" but interepreted differently by culture/race/faith.
To really understand the OBE, I strongly suggust one hook themshelves up to a microscope, video camera, ekg machine and see how the equiptment doesn't measure this. I have done everything except the ekg machine and noticed no difference in physical / audio changes in heart rate or breathing.
tvos
When dreaming, there is Rapid Eye Movement (REM). In scientific studies of OBE, there is no recorded REM because the mind is awake and it's the body that is asleep.
Quote from: jub jub on August 07, 2008, 11:09:26
When dreaming, there is Rapid Eye Movement (REM). In scientific studies of OBE, there is no recorded REM because the mind is awake and it's the body that is asleep.
Jub Jub,
Been awhile...:( Hope all is well these days with family, friends and OBEs!
Where did you see this study/research about monitoring the OBE and it not being recorded.
Please advise.
Tvos
Hi David, good to see you're still posting!
Here's a quote from an article, second para.
QuoteFrom Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself).
Here's the URL.
http://cref.tripod.com/article_oberesearch.htm (http://cref.tripod.com/article_oberesearch.htm)
I believe there are several other research articles that came to the same conclusion. Google "REM OBE Research"
Quote from: tvos on August 07, 2008, 00:41:33
QuoteQuote from: The Present Moment on August 07, 2008, 02:20:24
I would explain that the IBE is created by the senses, and that the OBE is every bit as natural as far as consciousness is concerned.
I think you meant "OBE" instead of "IBE" correct?
"IBE" (the in-body-experience) is created by the 5 senses. There is no reason for us to experience being in or out of the body except that one set of information (the 5 senses) is better at holding our attention. That is how I 'validate' OBEs to skeptics - consciousness isn't in or out to begin with.
Quote from: Venus_Goddess_of_Love on July 26, 2008, 11:15:25
Hi all
I have a friend who is interested in OBEs - he has an open mind but the other day he asked me "how do you know you weren't dreaming?". I couldn't say much at the time because we were having lunch in a crowded place; but I would like to explain it to him properly at some point.
If you were me, how would you explain it to him?
All ideas welcome!
Venus :-D
In your place I wouldn't try to explain anything. I never try to explain anything to skeptics. Because it is impossible to convince him in such a thing; he has to experience it himself. Unless he experiences a spontaneous OOBE, I don't think anyone can explain or convince a skeptic. Simply mind your own business, and let him believe anything he wish. He believes or he doesn't believe... who cares?
There's a difference between skeptic and materialist. Real skepticism is not taking anything at face value. The ones you are describing are not skeptics, they are materialists. The diehards who believe that if they can't prove it physically then it can't be proven, and (to take it to the next step) need to be stopped and/or ridiculed. Since this can't be proven physically (yes, it can be demonstrated over and over, but that is not the same).
So it depends on whether Venus' friend is a true skeptic or a scofftic. If he's a skeptic, this is what he has to know:
AP or OBE is a skill that can be learned.
There are specific techniques that can be honed to achieve it.
The OBE is different than a dream, because scientists have isolated brain processes (as TVoS and others already showed) in OBE that are different than dreaming, and because even though the experience isn't uniform (so technically not falsifiable) it is repeatable.
OBE is often verified. However, since it's nature is as subjective (if not more than) rather than objective, the same parameters can't be used to test it (which is why I keep saying it's not falsifiable).
The best way to test for it's validity is to have one.
Which is why it's not strictly falsifiable.
Even if an OBE or projection is not scientifically probable, it still is a worthwhile endeavor, because OBE in it's most subjective way, objectifies subconscious processes for your conscious mind to experience and remember.
That's a lot cheaper than psychoanalysis, if you ask me.
Oh my God the thoughts are coming so fast I cant type this fast! Get ready for a long post...
ok, its like this...
This is how consciousness works, think of yourself as having 2 (at least!!!!) bodies. One is overlayed upon the other, both bodies correspond to a frequency. That frequency enables the body to exist in the universe/here-now of the locality in which it resides. In other words, the physical body is in tune with the physical vibratory rate of THIS universe so it resonates and exists... People hear it and see it and feel it, etc. Your ASTRAL/ETHERIC body resonates with the non physical realm, be it whatever you call it, shambala, the astral plane, the non physical plane, the etheric plane, heaven, hell, etc etc it doesnt matter! It resonates and exists with whatever level of the plane IT resides in. Think of the astral plane, which is widely referred to as the NEXT plane or the plane closest to us superimposed over the physical plane..
Now, consciousness works like this... Think of our brain as a reciever and transmitter of information. Now think of our MIND as the astral bodies' brain. There is at least a duality to every single thing in existance, in all universes in the whole multiverse! Now, consciousness is a measurement of awareness frequency, in that, say you are driving, and you are on a lonely stretch of uninteresting highway and your mind begins to drift off.. You start having a loss of awareness in the sense as you start thinking non physical thoughts, maybe you are thinking about what you did that day, what you WILL BE DOING that day, your wife, your family, OOBE's whatever! Well what you are doing is unconsciously shifting your awareness or changing your frequency inward.. What do you think happens when people do this? This is why they tell you to PAY ATTENTION when driving! This is because although the mind/brain can focus on multiple things at once, it only has so many resources to do so.
Some people dont realize this and end up allocating most of their resources to the subconscious mind and then they detatch a little bit from physicality awareness. The reason for this is the mind is always wandering, always thinking. Even though it has no visible or noticible stimulii it finds things to think about. Now with OOBE's consciousness works like this. When you have an OOBE, you are shifting or funneling all of your awareness/consciousness from one place to another. This is how masters teleport. They have gotten to a certain state of enlightenment as to they can change their molecular structure and physically dematerialize and blink from one place to another. Teleportation in the physical is exactly the same as it is in the astral. You are just moving your awareness from point A to point B. When you have an OOBE, you are moving your awareness from point A (your physical body) to point B (astral body)!
I teleported the other night in a dream. I will explain how it happened. I knew I needed to get somewhere, from point A to point B. I was on foot in the dream and I knew in the dream it would take longer than desired to get there without a car (at least 5-10 miles), so I visualized the place I wanted to go to. In the dream I closed my eyes. I visualized the image of the building as if I was standing right outside of it. When I opened my eyes I was looking down and I looked up because I felt like it didnt work because I felt NO movement, well guess what, it worked! Why do you think that is? That is the first dream I have EVER had where I teleported in such a way. This happened because when I closed my eyes and shifted my consciousness/awareness to the THERE that I wanted to go to, I LOST all awareness of the HERE that I was currently at - at that particular point in non-physical time (oxymoron much?). That is how teleporting works, same exact way. This proves to me that consciousness is a continuum. It cannot be destroyed. There is no way you can just "not exist"!
I dont understand how people cannot understand this, and alot of them are scientists!!!!!! I have had surgery before and was put under, I dont remember anything, and I didnt have an OOBE, there was no 3-4 hours of pure blackness with no sound or vision.. I woke up some hours later which at the time seemed like only a moment had passed and I was groggy and felt like crap. If someone dies and they dont encounter a NDE or anything what do you think happens? It is physically impossible for "nothing" to happen. I like it when I meet a scientist or expert and they are a skeptic and materialist and they say OOBE is not possible or its a chemical reaction, because when they say this i say "Do you go to church?" 95% of the time they say yes, and then my next question I ask them is "dont they say if you die and believe in [insert deity name here] and live your life according to [deity's name] doctrine you go to [insert orthodox version of afterlife here]?" They say yes, and I say, "so is that place a chemical reaction or non existant then?". Their answer is almost always "I dont know...". That pretty much makes them think after that.
I mean, if you dont believe in heaven or hell or whatever then why go to church? Do you stand up during the sermon and say "Well I agree with most of what you are saying and all, but this crazy idea of the resurrection and going to heaven and all that doesnt sit right with me.."?????? Of course not! I love how people are trying to be all knowing and everything but yet they cannot explain the WHY.. I am not all knowing by far but at least I set out to prove to myself that this was real. I have had people say "well you wanted it to happen so badly that you made it seem real." I tell them no, it was real, i know the difference between full waking consciousness and a dream and when I am in a dream my consciousness is fully linear, and by that I mean I can only see what I am currently focusing on. If I am outside in a dream, I can tell you it was daylight or nighttime, I can tell you the color of the grass, I can tell you if the sun was shining, but I cannot tell you if birds were singing, I cannot tell you if the grass was knee high or very short, I cannot tell you if it felt like summer or winter, I cant tell you if I was standing on grass or on dirt.
In full waking consciousness I dont have to look directly at something to know and be aware of it. Its a huge difference! Some people just dont understand this. Those people are the people that NEED to have an OOBE more than ever so their eyes can be opened to the truth! My sister is one of those people. A while back I told her I was going to start practicing having an OOBE again and she said "Why?. I told her "well, why not?". I told her I want to try to live my life to a higher purpose and I want to become enlightened so that I may be able to help all of my brothers and sisters of the world become enlightened because it is our birthright. There wasnt more she could say to that. I realize sooner or later - people - in their own time will see the truth, but I feel like as a service to humankind I should at least try. I feel its better than NOT trying. I had someone ask me the other day "why do you want to have an OOBE? Whats wrong with your physical body?". I told them nothing was wrong but I have had an OOBE before and I want to have another one, I tried explaining but they wouldnt listen. I knew this time it was time to just stop and walk away. Its like Morpheus says to Neo, "I told you I would show you the door, youre the one that has to walk through it." I want to be the one that shows my brothers and sisters the door. They have every right by way of choice to choose to walk through it or not...
-13
I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. -Adam Sessler
Thought I might add a little something..
Some years ago, when I was much younger than I am now, back way before my awakening, before I even knew what an OOBE was, I came across an article (its funny how the unuverse seems to nudge you in the right direction..) of a scientist who was at a hospice and was tracking a terminally ill patient. That when the time came, the golden hour, he would weigh that patient and then weigh them after they passed on. He found a discrepancy in weight by a few milligrams. Nothing was altered in the experiment, nothing... I believe the experiment's hypothesis was that the soul's weight could be measured. This was set in order to lend some truth to the argument of soul/no soul. I dont think you can get much more clear than that. Oh and also there have been pics taken of people at the moment of death and some of these pics you can see anomalies in the photgraphs. Alot of people think this is a representation of soul leaving the body (for the final voyage.).
Thoughts? :-o
-13
I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. -Adam Sessler
Quote from: Th13rteen on October 22, 2008, 10:23:52
Oh and also there have been pics taken of people at the moment of death and some of these pics you can see anomalies in the photgraphs. Alot of people think this is a representation of soul leaving the body (for the final voyage.).
Thoughts? :-o
-13
I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. -Adam Sessler
If death/NDE/OBE is shifting awarness due to vibration, then the soul does not leave the body. Nothing leaves, it just shifts it's awarness as you stated in your first post.
Quote from: jub jub on October 22, 2008, 10:30:47
If death/NDE/OBE is shifting awarness due to vibration, then the soul does not leave the body. Nothing leaves, it just shifts it's awarness as you stated in your first post.
My apologies if the thread is getting derailed... :evil:
Ah yes, I see what you are saying. Hmm now to figure this out. So the argument is:
Does the soul/astral body "leave/vacate" the premises upon death/OOBE/NDE/Disassociation?
-OR-
Does it just stay there at those space-time coordinates but changes vibration to a different locale?
(in the case of death - permanently)
My answer is: I dont know. To know would mean I would have to die or be able to consult with a higher form of intelligence or with a credible source that could tell me either way which one is fact. I know this sounds like a cop-out but to be honest I havent thought of it that way, but I am glad the question has been posed. As I said before I am not all knowing so yes, this is a good thing this has been brought up, maybe I/we can glean some knowledge from this!
Maybe the photos in question are fraudulent and/or altered. Or maybe the soul/awareness upon death changes to a specific type of vibration and the photos in question are capturing just that - the transformation. Also, how do we explain the weight experiment? I am not going to say I believe in one way or another because I dont "know". These are just my opinions on the matter as I try to learn the higher truth of what is and what is not...
What do you think happens Jubjub?
-13
I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. -Adam Sessler
Quoteok, its like this...
This is how consciousness works, think of yourself as having 2 (at least!!!!) bodies. One is overlayed upon the other, both bodies correspond to a frequency. That frequency enables the body to exist in the universe/here-now of the locality in which it resides. In other words, the physical body is in tune with the physical vibratory rate of THIS universe so it resonates and exists... People hear it and see it and feel it, etc. Your ASTRAL/ETHERIC body resonates with the non physical realm, be it whatever you call it, shambala, the astral plane, the non physical plane, the etheric plane, heaven, hell, etc etc it doesnt matter! It resonates and exists with whatever level of the plane IT resides in. Think of the astral plane, which is widely referred to as the NEXT plane or the plane closest to us superimposed over the physical plane..
I thought you knew? :lol:
Well, I'm from the same school of thought you are and that is, our consciousness doesn't go anywhere. It's stationary, and when we have an OBE, our consciousness shifts to a different frequency which puts us in another dimension. The closest to our human experience being the etheral, or RTZ. This accounts for the different flavors of the Astral experience or "zones" as some put it.
I think it's as basic as that.
LOL! Ok this is weird.............................
This is gonna sound crazy but tonight at work I JUST went to this link...
http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials/astral-projection/part-2.html
and at the top of it where he is talking about "Etheric Matter", he talks about the measurement experiments I was just talking about a day ago!
"...This etheric matter has actual weight. There have been scientific studies done on this phenomena. Dying people in hospitals have had their beds placed on delicate scales shortly before death and hooked up to EEG and ECG monitors. In all cases, at the exact moment of death, a sudden weight loss of approximately one quarter of an ounce is observed. This is caused by a large amount of etheric matter being transferred into the astral body at the moment of physical death. This is similar to the sudden transfer of etheric matter into the astral body during a near death experience where the body believes it is dying. This sudden, massive transfer of etheric matter is the start of the death process. "
Well I guess that answers my question, THANKS ROBERT!
I still find it weird that tonight after me and Jubjub were discussing this I stumbled across this article while looking for interesting stuff to read. I love the way the universe works :)
-13
I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. -Adam Sessler
I don't know if I buy off on that. I did a little searching and most scales capable of measuring the weight of a human plus their bed or wheelchair lack sufficient resolution to see .25 ounce. A good medical scale will have a accuracy of .1 lb which is 1.6 ounces. Not good enough to see a .25 ounce change in weight. In other words, they aren't sensitive enough. This is not to say the body doesn't get lighter, I'm just saying I'm a little sceptical.
My whole take on the consciousness is this. Our brain is a transceiver for the Master Consciousness (God if you will). Our five senses are transducers that modulate the brain and transmit and receive data to the Master. Also, all our ideas, thoughts and experiences are stored on the master hard drive to be utilized and studied at a later date (upon death). Why you ask, do we seem to have this individual identity? So we can go through life making decisions which will not be influenced by an outside source thus enriching our experiences here. The Master Consciousness is living vicariously through us and all living things.
So, upon death, the transceiver breaks down (the brain dies) and our consciousness returns to where it started. We will recall all our experiences here on earth as well as every other living thing that is tied to our Master Consciousness!
Now, wasn't that easy? :-D
Beautiful explanation jub jub