To all you AP's on this forum here is a quick question:
Do you think AP might just be a vivid dream?
It's as possible as the physical being just a vivid dream. Everything is consciousness.
Hi there chipdouglas,
Welcome to the Astral Pulse.
I'll second Stookie's thought. :)
We don't actually know what the dream really is... ;)
However, to directly answer your question, and to speak about my own personal thoughts regarding it... "dreams" don't actually exist.
What we humans refer to as a "dream" is simply a journey into the non-physical (astral) in which you simply believe you're fully awake.
Quote from: Xanth on November 29, 2010, 15:10:48
Hi there chipdouglas,
Welcome to the Astral Pulse.
I'll second Stookie's thought. :)
We don't actually know what the dream really is... ;)
However, to directly answer your question, and to speak about my own personal thoughts regarding it... "dreams" don't actually exist.
What we humans refer to as a "dream" is simply a journey into the non-physical (astral) in which you simply believe you're fully awake.
Thanks for that clear and direct response
I guess what I meant to ask is why do you believe that we travel to an astral plane rather than just imagine stuff in our own head?
if life is mind whats the difference
Quote from: chipdouglas on November 29, 2010, 17:11:45
Thanks for that clear and direct response
I guess what I meant to ask is why do you believe that we travel to an astral plane rather than just imagine stuff in our own head?
For me personally... because I can't imagine it being anything else. The sensations are just... tremendous. The sensations are just so real.
I apologize if that's a really poor answer, but it's not really something that one can describe to someone else.
If your goal is to have a projection of your own (hopefully more than one), then you're definitely in the right place to learn how. :)
if the experience is satisfying and fulfilling, why does it matter if its just in your head.
certainly the notion of infinite worlds teeming with life and experience is amazing. but even if it were just in your head i think i would be equally amazed at the capacity and capability of the human mind. all that humanity has created and imagined came out of this mind. everything we are exists in these places some call "the mind" and others call "the astral". it is the source of inspiration.
the skepticism is understood, but in the end it doesn't matter what's happening (doesn't mean i and others wouldn't like to know) because we are enjoying the experience and feel that we are growing and healing through the process.
It's a very common question from people that haven't OBE'd yet. I think it's significant to note that no one who has tried AP to a significant degree has concluded that it just a dream. It is not a dream-like state at all. On top of it being just as conscious an experience as we have here in the physical, many people also go through verification processes where they can confirm AP through some method of Extra Sensory Perception. Even despite all that, what possible reason do our brains have for creating such elaborate illusions? What's the purpose of dreams in the first place? Why do we spend half our lives in sleep? It makes much more sense that humans have an inter-dimensional nature and we live in at least two dimensions simultaneously than humans (and all life on Earth) being hardwired with such an evolutionary flaw that means we have to lie still, shut down our brain and senses, and remain like that for at least 8 hours each day.
Quote from: AlanRK on November 29, 2010, 21:10:45
It's a very common question from people that haven't OBE'd yet. I think it's significant to note that no one who has tried AP to a significant degree has concluded that it just a dream. It is not a dream-like state at all. On top of it being just as conscious an experience as we have here in the physical, many people also go through verification processes where they can confirm AP through some method of Extra Sensory Perception. Even despite all that, what possible reason do our brains have for creating such elaborate illusions? What's the purpose of dreams in the first place? Why do we spend half our lives in sleep? It makes much more sense that humans have an inter-dimensional nature and we live in at least two dimensions simultaneously than humans (and all life on Earth) being hardwired with such an evolutionary flaw that means we have to lie still, shut down our brain and senses, and remain like that for at least 8 hours each day.
Well it seems one of the more common theory's for why we dream is that its the perfect place to practice survival skills among other things.
I'm trying to be opened minded about this but there doesn't seem to be any tangible evidence that AP is anything more than a vivid lucid dream.
I like how personalreality sums it up though. It doesn't really matter that much whats the reality of AP is because most people who practice it have positive experiences with it.
astral projection is essentially the skill of dreaming while awake. being fully immersed in that world. so in your suggested purpose of dreaming, astral projection is the more direct method of doing that learning and experiencing. perhaps you believe that's happening in the mind like a learning program in the matrix or something. but it doesn't seem so far fetched that your personal "holodeck" is linked to the rest of reality, like the internet. perhaps it's even connected to a greater reality some people might think of as god or something like it. especially when you have esp type experiences and are familiar with the interaction of minds and energy of other people. who knows the physics behind it. but it's like one of my psych professors said once, "of course we want to know why and how something works, but if it does work, we don't get hung up on why."
I'll tell you what chipdouglas, I can promise you that if you stick around here long enough AND give a concerted effort... you'll definitely have your own experiences in the future, to which you can then gauge for yourself how real those experiences are. :)
Really, that's the only meter stick you should use.
I once APed from a lucid dream to my friend's house and the next day she called and told me that she saw me floating around her ceiling at the same time I had APed. That seemed like pretty good confirmation to me that it's not just in my head. It can't really be proven to you though. You have to prove it to yourself because it's hard to believe hearing from somebody else. If not by someone spiritually sensitive seeing you then by observing something unknown in the real time zone and then confirming it by checking it physically. Either way though you have to be able to do it first. haha
Quote from: chipdouglas on November 29, 2010, 22:28:53
Well it seems one of the more common theory's for why we dream is that its the perfect place to practice survival skills among other things.
I'm trying to be opened minded about this but there doesn't seem to be any tangible evidence that AP is anything more than a vivid lucid dream.
I like how personalreality sums it up though. It doesn't really matter that much whats the reality of AP is because most people who practice it have positive experiences with it.
There is plenty of evidence, but there is not proof. You could review a thousand positive scientific studies of astral projection and it would not be proof, but it's pretty significant evidence. The only real proof is doing it yourself and finding out for sure what it is. If it's not real, then at least you'll have this fantasy realm in your head which you can visit to have fun in.
Most of the scientific studies done into OBE's are not very well done, some of them are downright idiotic, but almost all of them either return positive results, or neutral ones which hints of promise. In the end these are not enough, and they are hollow for anyone wanting to truly explore the matter. Who wants to read or debate whether it's real or not? Just do it and find out for sure.
Well, there's not much I can add to what's already been said but I'd still like to throw in my own thoughts. I agree with the general notion that we just don't know what these experiences are. Could they be elaborate dreams or fantasies produced in our "mind" by a functioning brain? Sure, why not. Perhaps there are no astral planes. Perhaps there is no other side, reductionist materialism is the correct paradigm, and when you die, that's it - you no longer exist.
But then again, perhaps not. After all, what is consciousness anyway? No one seems to know. For myself, I don't believe that consciousness is some sort of epiphenomenon produced by all sorts or biochemical reactions in the brain. It just doesn't make sense to me how any level of complexity in any system, biological or otherwise, can somehow suddenly produce consciousness. And if consciousness is in fact more than a substrate of physical processes, and our brains are more like receivers of consciousness than producers of consciousness, than it's very possible (in fact necessary) that there is more to reality than the physical world we perceive when we're awake.
I like Frank's idea that there is a spectrum of consciousness that we can train ourselves to "travel" up and down. That's really the whole idea of phasing I think - that awake consciousness is just one part of the total spectrum of consciousness and we have the ability to associate our awareness with other points along the spectrum (or phase into them like a 180 degree phase change of electrical signals) if we want to.
I'd also just like to throw in one other point, that most people who don't believe in AP that I've listened to simply dismiss it as unreal. They say people are just making up stories or under the influence of mind altering substances or are just hallucinating. I used to believe that too but fortunately there was enough curiosity in me to try to find out for myself. I don't know what AP's actually are (are we going to other "real" dimensions or stepping outside of our bodies in the "real" world or some sort of ethereal in-between world). The jury is still out on that one for me. But that these experiences are "real" in the sense that they do actually happen is indisputable. So for anyone who's reading this who has been trying to AP for a while without success and is ready to toss in the towel or label AP's as nonsense, my advice is to keep trying. No matter how long it may take, I believe you will eventually experience enough to prove to you that these things that people describe are really happening to them, whether they are all in the imagination or not.
The answer to the original post is validations.
Whether the AP experience is in the brain (yes, it's in the mind obviously, but is it in the brain?) or not, is IMO a pointless question. Everything we perceive is in the brain at some point.
But when you receive information that could only have come in a 'nonlocal' way, well, then the experience can't only just be in the brain 100% of the time.
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 01, 2010, 12:58:36
Whether the AP experience is in the brain (yes, it's in the mind obviously, but is it in the brain?) or not, is IMO a pointless question. Everything we perceive is in the brain at some point.
But I think the point of the question is not so much whether or not the brain plays a role, because as either moderator or producer of experiences, I agree with you that the brain has a part to play. I think the real question we are examining is whether or not the brain
experiences AP or actually
produces it. And viewed in that light, I'd like to respectfully disagree that it is a pointless question. For me, it is a critical question and the one that I'd like to have answered more than any other because it is applicable to more than just the AP experience, it is applicable to consciousness in general. Am I just a smart animal or something more? When my body dies, do
I die or does at least some part of me continue to exist? Perhaps I have misread the point of this thread but this is how I interpreted the question.
I see it like this...
Some people believe that consciousness is the result of the brain.
I believe it's the opposite, the brain is the result of consciousness.
And actually, it goes further than that... everything we experience and everything we are here in the physical is a direct result of consciousness.
Quote from: eflynn on December 01, 2010, 13:29:54
But I think the point of the question is not so much whether or not the brain plays a role, because as either moderator or producer of experiences, I agree with you that the brain has a part to play. I think the real question we are examining is whether or not the brain experiences AP or actually produces it. And viewed in that light, I'd like to respectfully disagree that it is a pointless question. For me, it is a critical question and the one that I'd like to have answered more than any other because it is applicable to more than just the AP experience, it is applicable to consciousness in general. Am I just a smart animal or something more? When my body dies, do I die or does at least some part of me continue to exist? Perhaps I have misread the point of this thread but this is how I interpreted the question.
Maybe it's not pointless, but if you look at the entire answer- "Validation" of extraphysical perception, then the answer can't be 'generated by the brain',
as far as we know, because the way the physical universe
as we know it is, the brain has no means of getting this information by the 'standard' physical explanations.
I'm not saying AP 'proves' or even has anything to do with the afterlife, God, and other such things, but if you look at it as a method of gathering information in a nonlocal way, then the brain can't be the creator of the experience. Of course, my opinion of this can change if what we know about it changes, but for now, I don't think so.
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 01, 2010, 14:03:44
Maybe it's not pointless, but if you look at the entire answer- "Validation" of extraphysical perception, then the answer can't be 'generated by the brain', as far as we know, because the way the physical universe as we know it is, the brain has no means of getting this information by the 'standard' physical explanations.
I'm not saying AP 'proves' or even has anything to do with the afterlife, God, and other such things, but if you look at it as a method of gathering information in a nonlocal way, then the brain can't be the creator of the experience. Of course, my opinion of this can change if what we know about it changes, but for now, I don't think so.
Yes, this I agree with you about. If you have an experience where you are able to collect information through an AP that you are certain you could not have obtained through physical means, and this information was later proved to be true, this would be good evidence that the brain did not generate the experience and validation that the AP experience is something more than what most people consider a dream.
So to get back to the original poster and to reiterate what has been said before, the best way to determine whether or not AP is real or dream (depending on your definition of real) is to have AP's yourself and see if you can learn something you could not have learned through physical means. Given that many people spend years of their lives trying to AP without success, if you're wondering whether or not it's worth it to you to put in so much time and effort into something you're not even sure is real, this is probably not a very satisfying response, but it's an honest response.
This is actually a question I struggle with personally....especially from a psychological and scientific perspective. I mean, let's face it... Science explains auditory, visual, and tactile hallucinations (which is the argument explaining lucidity and sleep paralysis versus astral travel). I'm not sure about the explanation for non-lucid dreams, but I experience the same 'hallucinations' to varying degrees when not lucid as well. However, I've developed a...hmmmm...how shall I say this....'marriage' of the two where I try to integrate both perspectives...though, I lean towards the parapsychological/metaphysical explanation. The sensations are just too 'real' to have science explain them away nicely and neatly. I mean, it's like asking a schizophrenic if he/she believes the voices. He/she almost always does. Maybe the voices are negative spirits latching manifesting themselves to the schizophrenic's reality? How are we to know?
Quote from: gingeralbino on December 04, 2010, 12:47:42
This is actually a question I struggle with personally....especially from a psychological and scientific perspective. I mean, let's face it... Science explains auditory, visual, and tactile hallucinations (which is the argument explaining lucidity and sleep paralysis versus astral travel). I'm not sure about the explanation for non-lucid dreams, but I experience the same 'hallucinations' to varying degrees when not lucid as well. However, I've developed a...hmmmm...how shall I say this....'marriage' of the two where I try to integrate both perspectives...though, I lean towards the parapsychological/metaphysical explanation. The sensations are just too 'real' to have science explain them away nicely and neatly. I mean, it's like asking a schizophrenic if he/she believes the voices. He/she almost always does. Maybe the voices are negative spirits latching manifesting themselves to the schizophrenic's reality? How are we to know?
On closer inspection some scientific "facts" are nothing more than wild guesses that prosper in the absence of a legitimate explanation. Just look at how many scientific "facts" there are about dreams which any projector knows is absolutely false. What we know as science is often times as much of a sham as most things of human construct, like religion. It helps to keep in mind that science is an industry, like all it is driven by money and human ego above all things, NOT genuine curiosity or a desire for truth.
again i quote Arthur C. Clarke
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Quote from: personalreality on December 04, 2010, 14:14:07
again i quote Arthur C. Clarke
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
OOOOH! I LIKE THIS! HOW TRUE!
quite