Many Virtual Obe's no real one yet?

[Jeff_Mash]

I believe the only difference between what you have experienced and what you call a full-blown OBE is your level of conscious awareness.  

For example, let's just say for arguements sake that you were only dreaming.  I have had many dreams which 'seemed' real....which suddenly forced my awareness to increase and BOOM!  I found myself out of body!  

Why did that happen?  Simply because while dreaming, my awareness wasn't that clear.  The experience was just real enough for me to follow along, but not real enough for me to interact with anything.  Once I started to become aware, I found myself out of my body with my full waking consciousness with me.

Think of it this way.  Right now, as you are reading this, you think of yourself in the physical world.  So where is this astral world right now?  Does it not exist?  Of course it does.  So why aren't you able to see and interact in this astral world right now?  Simply because you aren't aware of it!  By relaxing our bodies and meditating, we bring ourselves closer to this threshold where we can project into this other world (which is really layered right on top of the physical world).

Just my two cents!


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Patty]

Hey Jeff,

I like that!

Weagle, I wish I had some words of wisdom. I have some iffy experiences and some that are definitely 'out' and others too. I kinda think they are all 'real' but they just aren't quite what we are looking for.

Jeff - any good tips on how to increase conscious awareness? Buhlman's tips don't work for me.

Patty

[weagle]

interesting so it sounds like I am close.  Its amazing how real it is like you are fully aware of your surroundings and can go any direction just that it's not the real world just a virtual world with anomalies (things that shouldn't be there).  Whats the trick to going from a LUCID dream to a OBE, robert said I believe in the book if you are aware you are dreaming or not in a real world and then demand to be in the reall world of thing or go back to your body or something I dunno.  You can imagine how close I come to the real OBE while I sleep so many times I didn't even have to meditate much, the essential oils (agarwood and helichrysum) I'm using are enhancing my dream state a lot with lucid dreams and some of them with virtual type of obe's, I have full control of them I can make myself go to my body and wake up from them but I haven't found the trick where you are aware you're in a virtual dream and you somehow get into obe from it.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Patty:
Jeff - any good tips on how to increase conscious awareness? Buhlman's tips don't work for me.

Patty.....

The main technique that I have used in dreams is to STARE at something.  100% of the time when I do this, my awareness increases instantly and I am pulled out of my dream and into my OBE.  

This staring technique is similiar to the same technique I do from a meditative state.  While looking at the hypnogogic imagery, I detach myself and stare at these images until eventually, I become so engulfed in the experience that it "pulls me" into them.

Note: although this staring technique from a dream environment works every time for me, the HARD part is getting myself to remember to stare at something!  In the past while dreaming, I usually did this when I was reading something.  I would have a book or newspaper in front of me......then suddenly, while reading, I told myself to just stare at it.  This automatically increased my lucidity, the dream environment faded, and I found myself in a projection!

Hope that helps!


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Meg]

Yes, that's what I find most frustrating too! I said in another post that I have heaps of silly recurring dreams, lots of different ones, and most nights too. Occasionally I remember I'm dreaming and go into an OBE, but more often I wake up in the morning going "Damn, I dreamt my mobile didn't work but I didn't become lucid" or "Damn, I dreamt I had given birth to a litter of kittens and I didn't become lucid"!  Remembering is so difficult, even though I've writtten down a big long list of them all and I read it before I go to sleep.

Another trick I was told is to do a little action in your waking life every 15 minutes or so (I touch my earing for example) and eventually the action will come into your dreams, only the response will not be the same and you will realize you are dreaming. I'm positive that will work, but I'm having enough difficulty trying to remember to do it in the physical world!

Thank you for your idea, Jeff. I'll try that one too. I think we've all got little idiosynchracies we could utilise to become lucid, it's just a matter of identifying them.

Meg

"...listening like the orange tree..."  - John Shaw Neilson

[Jeff_Mash]

Right on.  Let me know how it goes!


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[weagle]

thats interesting I'll try that out next time I go lucid I'll remember to stare at something in the lucid dream let you know the results.

[weagle]

jeff what is the difference between obe and a virtual obe?  Like what exactly happens when you stare at something does your body start to vibrate and the scenary changes?  Do you hear any sounds like a pop/click/noise sound I know when one seperates from the body a noise sound happens.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by weagle:
jeff what is the difference between obe and a virtual obe?  Like what exactly happens when you stare at something does your body start to vibrate and the scenary changes?  Do you hear any sounds like a pop/click/noise sound I know when one seperates from the body a noise sound happens.

I'm sure I would hear sounds if I focus on them.  Basically, what happens is that, after staring at something, I am drawn into a black void.  I literally feel motion.  If I were to remain calm and focused, I could probably step right into an astral realm.

Instead, I always become aware that my physical body is laying in bed.  I then roll out of my body onto the floor and crawl away from it.  About 10-12 feet away, my sight kicks in.

Keep in mind that when I "stare" at something, I am not aggressively doing it.  My physical eyes are not trying to focus on an image to make it clearer.  It's more of a passive observation of something.

For example, sit in front of a blank wall.  Now put an object (cup, phone, etc) in front of the wall about 8 inches away.  Now stare at the wall but be aware of the object.  I don't know about you, but I start to space out a bit, and before I know it, I'm no longer aware that I'm even staring at the wall.  I'm simply in my own little world, aware of the wall and object, but my eyes are pretty relaxed.

This is what it's like for me when I try to project, except instead of an object in front of a wall, it's an image in front of a black canvas of darkness.  I'm aware of the image/object, but I continue staring passively.

Eventually, you're so engulfed in that state of mind that your body isn't even in your thoughts.  You start to feel motion and, as long as you're calm, you can shift right into a projection.

Hope that helps!




Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[weagle]

I think I achieved an OBE thanks to you jeff.  This is what happened I had a lucid dream all of a sudden I wanted to stare at an object which I started to do then all of a sudden I became more and more aware I'm actually dreaming then I started hearing a ringing sound in my ear, so I wanted to stare at another object but they were all moving so I said let me just listen to that sound and not pay attention to anything else then I started closing my eye lids then the whole lucid dream stopped at its tracks it blacked out and then all of a sudden I was in my bed I was seeing through closed eyelids,  I immediately rolled out it was easily no effort needed and I saw my body on my bed only problem everything was solid I couldn't go through doors (maybe need to train my mind that I am capable of this) and such and then after several seconds I started seeing anomalies, I wonder how long this lasts?  I knew I did do an OBE because when I woke up I had numbness all over my body especially the third eye.  I know the brain (third eye) releases I believe melatonin to paralyse the body so you don't actually do the moves (like sleep walking) and I had an incident awhile ago when my grandmom passed away she came and visit my mom my mom woke up she went to me the same hour I didn't and spoke to her but same situation I was waking up and I had paralysis.  Very interesting stuff, this sure beats meditation quick way to astral project but it's nice to do it anytime you want though only through meditation one can achieve it.  Can you actually do the same scenario that is stare at objects  as you described while conscious or it has to be while sleeping?

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by weagle:
Can you actually do the same scenario that is stare at objects  as you described while conscious or it has to be while sleeping?

I try and do this while I am in a trance-like state.  Lately, I've also done this when I first lay down at night.

You see, when I first lay down, I've found that when I immedietely close my eyes and try to relax, it takes me a long time.  Instead, I am leaving my physical eyes OPEN but I don't look at anything in particular.  I simply stare out into the blackness of my bedroom.  The more relaxed I get, the more my eyes begin to close.....I am aware that my eyes are closing, and when they do, I keep my mind focused.

So by the time my eyes are closing/closed on their own, my mind is pretty relaxed and my body is nearing sleep.  I then begin to bring my conscious awareness closer to the astral realm by watching the hypnogic imagery that passes before me.  When images or scenes begin to stay longer in my site of vision, I stare at them, which only further engulfs me into this altered state of reality.

I hope that made sense, and doesn't come off like a bunch of new age garbage!  It's easier done than said, for me!


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[weagle]

I see now, so you don't do nothing but stare no breath awareness/body awareness exercise except the staring like for example the falling/going down thing to trick your body to relax/fall asleep you don't do that?.  It's amazing I think this technique works well I was able to accomplish it in a dream state and shut the dream down like you mentioned staring at a object.  How long do you usually keep your eyes open before they start to get tired?  What do you do when you close your eyes aferwards do you do any extra trance exercises or you automatically go to the hypnogogic state? How long does it take the first time you achieved the hypnogogic roughly?  I personally think these are the best techniques when I try doing those rope/water sky technique or whatever my body starts tensing up the staring is by far the best however I think the rope technique is atleast good when you do exit from your body and somehow are still stuck to it and need to pull yourself out thinking/feeling of climbing on a rope helps you break free.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by weagle:
I see now, so you don't do nothing but stare no breath awareness/body awareness exercise except the staring like for example the falling/going down thing to trick your body to relax/fall asleep you don't do that?.

I do a little breath awareness at the same time that I'm relaxing my eyes and looking for these images.

quote:
How long do you usually keep your eyes open before they start to get tired?

Depends on how awake I am when I lay down.  Usually, though, my eyes start to close on their own within 5 minutes.

quote:
What do you do when you close your eyes aferwards do you do any extra trance exercises or you automatically go to the hypnogogic state?

Again, I take big long breaths at this time to further relax my body.  I try not to clutter my mind with in depth breath awareness (where you count in, breath, count out, exhale), simply because it keeps my mind too active.  I need to quiet my mind in order to relax completely, and this is why I simply concentrate on the hypnogogic imagery.  By the way, this imagery usually comes soon after my eyelids close on their own.

quote:
How long does it take the first time you achieved the hypnogogic roughly?

See above.

quote:
I personally think these are the best techniques when I try doing those rope/water sky technique or whatever my body starts tensing up the staring is by far the best however I think the rope technique is atleast good when you do exit from your body and somehow are still stuck to it and need to pull yourself out thinking/feeling of climbing on a rope helps you break free.

Yes, I attribute the rope technique (at least in my case) As an EXIT technique, not a projection technique.  Personally, I prefer to roll out of my body, but sometimes when I am stuck, using a rope to PULL myself out works just fine.  But concentrating on a rope to induce the projection is not something that I'm good at.




Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[weagle]

i forgot just one last question about your eyes starting to close what are the hypnogogic images are they the afterimage of the object you were watching? Is it like a dream scenario or random pictures going through the mind?  I was wondering how effective it is to just to glare at an object and just visualize it and keep it in mind while you close your eyes does that help or it has to be hypnogogic images/random images??

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by weagle:
i forgot just one last question about your eyes starting to close what are the hypnogogic images are they the afterimage of the object you were watching?

It's not an after-image, because I am not looking at anything in particular.  When I do this exercise, it's almost completely black in my room.  My eyes are open but I can't see diddly-squat.  This accomplishes the same thing as having your eyes closed, except that it seems to help me quiet my mind and relax.  By the time I feel my eyes closing, I start seeing these images.

Note: Even if you choose to do this exercise in the daylight hours, I think it would be important not to forcefully stare at an object, but just allow your line of sight to be broad.  

For example, if you were to hold your finger out in front of your face, don't stare at your finger but look past it to the wall in the background.  You're still aware of your finger, because you see it there.  You're just not staring at it.  This is the same thing I do.  I look at a single point but I am not forcefully staring at anything.  It kind of reminds me of those 3D pictures that look like a random bunch of patterns.  Only after you relax your eyes do the 3 dimensional objects come into view and you can see a whole new scene!  This is exactly what happens to me during my relaxation process.

quote:
Is it like a dream scenario or random pictures going through the mind?  I was wondering how effective it is to just to glare at an object and just visualize it and keep it in mind while you close your eyes does that help or it has to be hypnogogic images/random images??

To each his own.  I think if you were to look at an object and stare at it, you could try to hold that image in your mind's eye when you close your eyes.  However, this doesn't work for me.  I prefer to allow random images to come into view instead of me exuding effort to hold something I already looked at.

The only advantage, for me, to look at something physical and try to mentally hold that image, is that it helps to heep your mind focused on something while your body is shutting down.  However, I personally have no problem keeping my mind aware, so I choose to focus on the astral images I start to see instead of some conjured up image in my mind.





Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Gus]

I think that awareness alone doesn't proves that the OBE is real.
If the OBE is in "this world" then you need to compare the details. It must be some place you haven't seen before, otherwise it could be just from memory.

The mind could just simulate the OBE

[weagle]

Gus: that's true but like jeff pointed out if it's a dream and not the real obe if you stare at an object if it's not an obe it will become one afterwards.  I wonder what happens when you are in obe and you stare at an object there's no reason to obe again something else must happen?  Jeff probably knows the answer to this one since he has done many obe's.  In robert's book you can do some tricks to see if you have succesfully done obe like pick a card from a deck and don't see it and place it in a spot where you will see it when you obe then check afterwards if it's the same.

jeff: that's amazing just stare at nothingness and think of nothing except the air going into your lungs then center your attention to the hypnogogic images can trigger an obe?  How long did it take you to achieve this skill?  I know every mile must vary in developing their skills.  Some people were saying about day dreaming ie blur your vision into a point like you said look beyond an object can do it also but only when yoou close your eyes when they get dizzy tired?  How about the falling technique (ie going own elevator/ladder) has that every helped trigger obe's according to robert's book he said that it helps put you into sleep mode much faster even if you're not tired.  But then again what you describe says that it puts you in sleep mode as well (ie day dream vision).

[Gus]

quote:In robert's book you can do some tricks to see if you have succesfully done obe like pick a card from a deck and don't see it and place it in a spot where you will see it when you obe then check afterwards if it's the same.

Not good enough, the probability of "guessing" is too high. Or you must repeat it several times.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Gus:
I think that awareness alone doesn't proves that the OBE is real.
If the OBE is in "this world" then you need to compare the details. It must be some place you haven't seen before, otherwise it could be just from memory.

The mind could just simulate the OBE

Gus,

From reading your past responses, I get the impression that you assume TRUE OBE's are only those which project into the real time zone.  This couldn't be further from the truth.

While it is possible to project into the RTZ, verifying things in it can be tricky.  For example, I have had someone who has never been to my house project to me and describe my room in detail.  This isn't something her mind could have made up.  So perhaps this would have been a TRUE OBE according to your description.

However, when I've been OBE, I have seen little incongruencies around my house, like furniture being out of place or doors placed where they shouldn't be.  To you, this wouldn't be a true OBE.....but reality as we know it is all relative.  Despite those incongruencies, that reality was just as real as me typing this post to you.  I won't pretend to understand everything that happens in the astral realm, but I can tell you this.  Your imagination/mental state can play a big part in how you percieve your experiences, just as it does in the physcial waking environment!  That doesn't take away from the genuineness of the experience.  

After all, what are we talking about here? An out of body EXPERIENCE, which is a non-physical experience.  How can a person apply physical laws and reasoning to a non-physical place?  


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by weagle:
Gus: that's true but like jeff pointed out if it's a dream and not the real obe if you stare at an object if it's not an obe it will become one afterwards.  I wonder what happens when you are in obe and you stare at an object there's no reason to obe again something else must happen?  Jeff probably knows the answer to this one since he has done many obe's.

I will speak from my own experience.  Others may vary.  For me, staring increases lucidity.  That's it.  If I am dreaming, and I remember to stare at something, my lucidity increases, I become aware, and then I have a full blown OBE.  

If I am already OBE and I stare, it helps to ground me a bit, and the lucidity becomes stronger.  It makes me feel like I can stay OBE forever.  

For example, what do most people try to do in order to calm down someone else?  They take them by the shoulders and say, "Hey, HEY! Calm down...look at me!  Look at me!"

I apply the same thing to my experiences.  When I get out and I start fluttering around, and my mind is racing with things to do, I simply stop, take a few deep astral breaths, and stare at something in order to make me more lucid.

quote:
 In robert's book you can do some tricks to see if you have succesfully done obe like pick a card from a deck and don't see it and place it in a spot where you will see it when you obe then check afterwards if it's the same.

I have never tried any of these things, mainly because I don't really care if I can physically prove these or not.  I would rather dive further into the astral and learn more than stay close to the physical plane and try to read a card.  That's just my mentality though.  Not to mention, I have had touble reading and seeing numbers when I am out.

quote:
jeff: that's amazing just stare at nothingness and think of nothing except the air going into your lungs then center your attention to the hypnogogic images can trigger an obe?

Well, yes and no.  It's not like a magic switch that clicks and BOOM!  You're OBE.  It's just something that keeps my mind occupied while taking my attention away from the physical body.  I also am finding that the perception I use when viewing hypnogogic imagery is very simialiar to how I view things in the astral.

quote:
 How long did it take you to achieve this skill?

This is an ongoing thing, my friend!  Every attempt is building on the last.  I have been practicing for the last 4 years, since my first one in 1998.

quote:
I know every mile must vary in developing their skills.  Some people were saying about day dreaming ie blur your vision into a point like you said look beyond an object can do it also but only when yoou close your eyes when they get dizzy tired?  How about the falling technique (ie going own elevator/ladder) has that every helped trigger obe's according to robert's book he said that it helps put you into sleep mode much faster even if you're not tired.  But then again what you describe says that it puts you in sleep mode as well (ie day dream vision).

I have never had any experiences from dreaming about falling/elevators, etc.  But what works for me might not work for you...and vice versa.  I see both as a way of occupying your mind with OBE related symptoms, while at the same time, getting your mind off your physical body.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Gus:

quote:In robert's book you can do some tricks to see if you have succesfully done obe like pick a card from a deck and don't see it and place it in a spot where you will see it when you obe then check afterwards if it's the same.

Not good enough, the probability of "guessing" is too high. Or you must repeat it several times.

Guessing is too high?  You have a 1 in 52 chance!  I challenge you to take a random card from a deck of cards and 'guess' the number and suit.  I think you'll find that it's not as easy as a simple guess.



Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Gus]

quote:Guessing is too high? You have a 1 in 52 chance! I challenge you to take a random card from a deck of cards and 'guess' the number and suit. I think you'll find that it's not as easy as a simple guess.

Some packs have only 36 cards (in my area that's usual).

[weagle]

>>If I am already OBE and I stare, it helps to ground me a bit, and the luciduty >>becomes stronger. It makes me feel like I can stay OBE forever.

really you can stay on there forever with no major anomalies and remember everything?  I remember robert bruce saying only way you can stay astrally for many minutes (15 minutes tops)  if you are trained or/and you go back to your body to download the information then go outwards but if you start getting anomalies you just stare at an object and then everything stabilizes again?  that's amazing.

[Tia]

Interesting post.

I remember reading a post in the old forum where somebody had asked what the diference is between a OBE dream and an actual OBE.  Robert Bruce replied that the OBE has physical/body sensations ie;  energy movement sensations.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by weagle:
>>If I am already OBE and I stare, it helps to ground me a bit, and the luciduty >>becomes stronger. It makes me feel like I can stay OBE forever.

really you can stay on there forever with no major anomalies and remember everything?  I remember robert bruce saying only way you can stay astrally for many minutes (15 minutes tops)  if you are trained or/and you go back to your body to download the information then go outwards but if you start getting anomalies you just stare at an object and then everything stabilizes again?  that's amazing.

Err.....I didn't say I could stay there forever!  I said it made me FEEL like I could!  In reality, what happens is that no matter how much control I have when I'm 'out', something always happens which makes me lose control.  Sometimes, I'll be flying so fast that I get disorientated, and I return to the physical.  Other times, I'll get overwhelmed with an onslaught of thoughts, like:

"What should I do now?"
"Should I try to contact someone?"
"Hey, look at my hands!"
"Why does my kitchen look different?"
etc.....

Usually, if I don't quiet my mind and calm these thoughts, I lose control within a matter of seconds!

So you see, even though I can FEEL like I can stay out forever, I usually get distracted by something and return to my body.  This is why everytime I'm 'out', it's a constant learning process on how to stay out longer with greater control.




Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com