So lastnight I was lying in bed attempting to phase (as I sometimes do but it never seems to work for me) I gave up and decided to get up, I crawled out of bed and noticed my whole room was dark and filled with junk...Thats when I realised I was not in the physical..
Wow no sleep paralysis (loved skipping that step) and no vibrations either
Was this a phase or just your run of the mill OBE?
Also when you phase do you still experiance the whole roll/crawl/float out of body thing?
I vote 4 OBE
Quote from: urshebear on June 07, 2011, 18:47:46
So lastnight I was lying in bed attempting to phase (as I sometimes do but it never seems to work for me) I gave up and decided to get up, I crawled out of bed and noticed my whole room was dark and filled with junk...Thats when I realised I was not in the physical..
Wow no sleep paralysis (loved skipping that step) and no vibrations either
Was this a phase or just your run of the mill OBE?
I vote 'traditional' OBE too but with one caveat- If you were walking with feet and felt the floor, I'd say OBE with strong dream elements.
QuoteAlso when you phase do you still experiance the whole roll/crawl/float out of body thing?
I don't- I get sucked or 'fall' into the environment.
The way I understand phasing (the method) there is no break in waking consciousness. It sounds like you fell asleep into the transitional state and didn't regain full consciousness until you became lucid. Having had very similar experiences I'd call it an OBE without typical separation.
Quote from: urshebear on June 07, 2011, 18:47:46
Also when you phase do you still experiance the whole roll/crawl/float out of body thing?
I've phased from the transitional state and it's sort of like when a movie 'fades in' at the beginning.
Quote from: urshebear on June 07, 2011, 18:47:46
Was this a phase or just your run of the mill OBE?
This question doesn't matter. You had a non-physical experience. That's all that matters. :)
QuoteAlso when you phase do you still experiance the whole roll/crawl/float out of body thing?
You do not. Think of Phasing more like falling asleep into a dream while remaining fully consciously aware during the entire process. In essence, it's a WILD (wake induced lucid dream)... just another term for the same thing. :)
You had a nice little OBE there buddy congratz. Phasing is more of a.. deep daydream. Like an LD in a way.
~astraladdict
To me they are both the same. In fact, over at obe4u we say that we enter the Phase when we have OOBEs, AP and LDs. At least the term there is broad. I tend to separate from the body post vibrations and I still say that I'm entering the Phase. I don't associate the term with any type of method.
With or without vibrations, the Phase state = Mode 1 OOBEs (RTZ) / Mode 2 OOBEs (AP) / Lucid Dreaming (incorporated in the "Mode 2" category but entered differently).
About lucid dreams...I'd be careful about saying that they only happen on a personal unconscious level too. Lucid dreams have proved to me that they are also capable of being quite revealling...just like OOBEs! An example was when I saw my neighbour apparently committing suicide by drowning in her bath. In the dream I saved her even though I was lucid. A lot of things have gone on in waking life and she went through hell. I let her know I was there for her. Once she told me that her daughter was gonna have a bath and left the tap running for so long to the point of flooding the bathroom. She hoped that the water wouldn't come through my ceiling as it was directly above my downstairs toilet. Hmmm...was it her daughter or she tried to do something I wonder...
In fact, even non-lucid dreams can appear to be precognitive (happened to me too - I saw an accident taking place which happened exactly like it in waking life - same people involved too!!). Although the 'focus' may not be great, one could still be travelling extra-dimensionally. Don't underestimate the potential of dreams either is what I'm saying here!
Then we have the phenomenon of shared dreaming...it happens sometimes. It happened twice with me and my wife. It's funny how in Mode 2 OOBEs one seems to be able to enter the dreams and imagination of others as well as being able to talk to what appears to be their unconscious...
From that link...^^^
Quote from: Jilt on May 30, 2011, 13:13:26
If you want to experience an OOBE rather than a WILD (same thing in my book), I add the rope climbing technique (my favorite) or if I'm lazy, I gently lift my hand just a little under a sheet and when I don't feel the sheet I know my astral hand is free and I'm ready to completely lift out.
I have a WILD/OOBE nearly every morning using these techniques and the more you have, the easier it becomes. Enjoy.
Carl Jung said people can experience both the personal and collective unconscious in dreams...he also astral projected (recorded in
The Red Book), but he didn't call it that...he called it "active imaginings". 8-)
QuoteI vote 'traditional' OBE too but with one caveat- If you were walking with feet and felt the floor, I'd say OBE with strong dream elements.
I would call that an OBE too. But why or how does feet on the floor change things?
I thought 'Phase' was just a general term for LD or OBE...?
QuoteAlso when you phase do you still experiance the whole roll/crawl/float out of body thing?
I have done all of the above and also simply projected out directly to the foot of the bed with no exit sensations at all. And I do not think I have ever experienced sleep paralysis.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 08, 2011, 09:31:55
I thought 'Phase' was just a general term for LD or OBE...?
Phasing describes the method you use to access the non-physical.
While LD's and OBE' describe the experience.
Frank described it well: http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html
"Phasing, therefore, entails initiating a 180-degree phase shift between the physical and the non-physical realms of reality. " (from the Kepple link)
That does not look much like a method to me. It is more like an electronic allegory for shifting to the altered state.
Phasing *is* APing.
Action, not method.
Phasing is to Astral Projection as a Classic Separation OBE is to Astral Projection.
It's just the "how" we get from one area of consciousness to the other.
My apologies on my poor explanation before. :)
Is any of this really an issue? Would someone really be disappointed by "phasing" rather than a more classical exit or vice-versa? I sometimes don't understand why people need things explained to them to know if they were successful or not. How can you not know? Why put your experience in someone else's box?
^ Well said. Using an analogy from the "LDs are not OBEs" thread... people want to know if what they had was chicken, beef or pork. Try to think of it as one chicken cooked at varying temperatures in different ways and with different spices.
QuoteIs any of this really an issue? Would someone really be disappointed by "phasing" rather than a more classical exit or vice-versa?
When I first started to project I would either project directly to a distant place or I would pause for a short moment by my body and then shoot directly off to some destination.
I read lots of other stories when I started doing this and I wanted to understand what other people were saying and doing. It became important for me to float up to the ceiling and look back at my body lying in bed. I also wanted to explore my neighborhood.
It may not be a matter of being "disappointed" but rather a desire to understand what others are talking about.
That is why vocabulary and nomenclature are important.
Quote from: Stookie_ on June 08, 2011, 11:30:20
Is any of this really an issue? Would someone really be disappointed by "phasing" rather than a more classical exit or vice-versa?
If u get stuck in F 22 at all times, perhaps u want to know why?
I agree with Rudolph and Stookie at the same time.
To me it's all the same. In fact, any experience involving our conscious awareness focusing on anything but the physical body can be regarded as apparently "out of body". This includes lucid dreaming too, because, it is also a dissociative experience. While dreaming in a lucid state, you do not feel like you're in your physical body at all. Instead of feeling yourself laying in bed, you experience being in other places and you can apparently move about and explore them.
I'd also like to add that it doesn't really matter if we say "inducing OOBEs", "phasing", or "entering the Phase state".
I don't think anyone can claim to fully understand the nature of such experiences. OOBEs/AP/LDs are all elusive and they are all properties of consciousness. For all we know, we are currently third-dimensional beings trying to understand our tenth-dimensional nature...
Rudolph:
QuoteI would call that an OBE too. But why or how does feet on the floor change things?
Because walking is not something you usually do with an etheric body, unless you are nonlucid and walking is what you expect to do, as in any other dream.
I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else is saying, though.
Quote from: CFTraveler on June 08, 2011, 14:52:06
Rudolph: Because walking is not something you usually do with an etheric body, unless you are nonlucid and walking is what you expect to do, as in any other dream.
I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else is saying, though.
Normally I just float around or fly when OBE and I am not aware of a body either. But recently I tried to feel my feet on the ground as I walked because other people report that they do this and I wanted to try it. I also wondered if it would assist as a 'deepening' technique.
Lots of people report feeling the grass between their toes when arriving at an astral park and other similar tactile experiences while OBE. It is not all that uncommon, if you ask me.
I'd like to add that the naked awareness may persist for a while after one transitions from a Mode 1 OOBE into a Mode 2 environment.
WOW thanks for the reply..
First of all I want to explain my reasons for asking you about this...alot of you talk about phasing and I have read a little bit about it but don't quite understand it and I wont unless I experience it.
I know how to LD, I know how to AP (though I'm not as experienced as most of you) however I have not "phased" the way most talk about it and I want to try it because it sounds interesting...the whole noticing part etc and because I want to be able to compare it to LDs and APs to help me with my own understanding.
Agree 100% with summerlander about not underestimating lucid dreams as I too have had some very revealing ones.
@CFTraveler I nearly always roll/crawl or somersault out and I have definitely walked before but I wasn't actually watching my feet to know wether or not they were on the ground. I still had 100% awareness throughout the entire thing.
Quote from: urshebear on June 09, 2011, 05:04:21
...however I have not "phased" the way most talk about it and I want to try it because it sounds interesting...the whole noticing part etc and because I want to be able to compare it to LDs and APs to help me with my own understanding.
Agree 100% with summerlander about not underestimating lucid dreams as I too have had some very revealing ones.
To me phasing and APing are the same thing. Can you give an example of " "phased" the way most talk about it" so can understand this better?
And yes, I have said here before that I think the LD is not just useful but often MORE instructive and revealing than a simple OBE.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 09, 2011, 10:42:19
To me phasing and APing are the same thing. Can you give an example of " "phased" the way most talk about it" so can understand this better?
And yes, I have said here before that I think the LD is not just useful but often MORE instructive and revealing than a simple OBE.
it's all the same thing. it's experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees, that's all. nothing complicated about it. so, i agree rudy.
Quote from: personalreality on June 09, 2011, 11:20:19
it's all the same thing. it's experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees, that's all. nothing complicated about it. so, i agree rudy.
Yup, I'll third that.
Astral Projection = Out of body experience = Dreaming = Lucid Dreams = Phasing = Whatever name you might have for it
They're all the same thing that describe activities that don't take place in this physical reality.
Quote from: Summerlander on June 08, 2011, 15:42:09
I'd like to add that the naked awareness may persist for a while after one transitions from a Mode 1 OOBE into a Mode 2 environment.
What is "naked awareness"?
And I think describing the various OBE states as "experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees" is a good way to put it but using the mathematical "=" sign is going too far. They are NOT 'equal'.
I have projected into an LD and I have gotten lucid in the midst of a regular dream and I have phased into pure OBE awareness from the LD state and then phased into pure astral realm awareness, sequentially. Each state is a different level of awareness.
Regular dream ==> Lucid Dream ==> AP
They may all involve extra-physical awareness but they are each qualitatively different in significant and meaningful ways.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 09, 2011, 12:26:18
And I think describing the various OBE states as "experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees" is a good way to put it but using the mathematical "=" sign is going too far. They are NOT 'equal'.
It entirely depends upon the context in which you're looking at that equality. In the context of my post, they're all very equal... they're all experiences within a reality that isn't this physical reality.
In your post, you're looking at it from the context of "how consciously aware you are". In which, I would agree that they're not the same.
It's all context and perception.
QuoteWhat is "naked awareness"?
What I mean by naked awareness is a floating point of consciousness devoid of any illusory body.
QuoteRegular dream ==> Lucid Dream ==> AP
What is AP, anyway? Can't AP be a WILD whereby you usually enter a burlesque version of the physical world? I personally don't see any difference apart from how focused you are in the realm of thoughts and the way in which you enter the Phase. I've had vivid
non-lucid dreams that were so highly defined as to excel in quality compared to certain lucid dreams... :roll:
QuoteWhat is AP, anyway? Can't AP be a WILD
No. AP is AP and WILD is WILD.
To me, AP is Full Waking Consciousness moving to Full conscious, "feel myself real-time separating" from the physical and now standing outside the physical but with full awareness. Now... I have a LOT more experience with that than with WILD but I have done some experimenting with various projection techniques and I think I have done the WILD thing a couple times but I need more experience to say much about it with a high degree of confidence.
QuoteI've had vivid non-lucid dreams that were so highly defined as to excel in quality compared to certain lucid dreams...
I know, me too. Quite the dilemma.... I had a clean separation in my thoughts about those ultra-vivid, crystal clear dreams compared to regular and even lucid dreams -- *before* I started doing these other projection methods. This is a real challenge trying to develop a meaningful vocabulary for all this. Especially since I never liked the "focus" level scheme. That seems a bit too clinical to me.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 09, 2011, 18:26:14
No. AP is AP and WILD is WILD.
To me, AP is Full Waking Consciousness moving to Full conscious, "feel myself real-time separating" from the physical and now standing outside the physical but with full awareness. Now... I have a LOT more experience with that than with WILD but I have done some experimenting with various projection techniques and I think I have done the WILD thing a couple times but I need more experience to say much about it with a high degree of confidence.
I know, me too. Quite the dilemma.... I had a clean separation in my thoughts about those ultra-vivid, crystal clear dreams compared to regular and even lucid dreams -- *before* I started doing these other projection methods. This is a real challenge trying to develop a meaningful vocabulary for all this. Especially since I never liked the "focus" level scheme. That seems a bit too clinical to me.
You're comparing the end result vs how you get there.
I see "Astral Projection" as the end result... and I view a WILD as describing how you get there.
In essence there are only two "ways" to get there. You either shift your consciousness smoothly to the non-physical with no break in awareness... or you shift your consciousness to the non-physical with a break in awareness.
QuoteYou're comparing the end result vs how you get there.
No, I'm not. I am using inclusive terms that contain both.
QuoteI see "Astral Projection" as the end result... and I view a WILD as describing how you get there.
I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.
The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.
Quote from: Xanth on June 09, 2011, 11:53:50
Astral Projection = Out of body experience = Dreaming = Lucid Dreams = Phasing = Whatever name you might have for it
They're all the same thing that describe activities that don't take place in this physical reality.
Not all agree with that.
For example Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson thinks different, see the thread
LDs are not OBEs (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_dreams/lds_are_not_obes-t34172.0.html)
I also think it's a little deceptive to not mention the objections from several of the great authors. It's kind of a "Frank behavior". Frank assigned statements to Monroe, statements which I never have recognized Monroe with.
It's deceptive.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 09, 2011, 21:28:36
Not all agree with that.
For example Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson thinks different, see the thread LDs are not OBEs (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_dreams/lds_are_not_obes-t34172.0.html)
I also think it's a little deceptive to not mention the objections from several of the great authors. It's kind of a "Frank behavior". Frank assigned statements to Monroe, statements which I never have recognized Monroe with.
It's deceptive.
It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*. Understand the difference.
And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it. Enough is enough Pauli.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 09, 2011, 19:25:12
No, I'm not. I am using inclusive terms that contain both.
I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.
The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.
You say tomato, I say tomoto. :)
wow didnt realise it was such an intense debate but yeeah....say it is all the same thing, what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question :)
Quote from: Xanth on June 10, 2011, 00:03:39
It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*. Understand the difference.
And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it. Enough is enough Pauli.
I've read old posts and new posts on this forum. And you and some other persons have stated over and over again that LDs are the same as OBEs.
More than a hundred posts!
Hundred "spams".
I don't kid you.
You and others have been writing the forum with more than hundreds posts about something which can be considered a lie.
It can be considered a lie, because you completely ignore skilled projectors like
Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson. And you continue to spread your claim which at least seems unsubstantiated. Your claim is unbacked and I would like to point you to read the arguments by Peterson. He has a whole table of arguments. It's in a link on page 3 of the forum thread you threatens to remove linking to.
Why should I be silenced when you are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty?
And you are completely ignoring those who have both arguments, experiences and authority in this field.
Why do you want to spread this kind of statement?
Is it a Frank thing?
Pauli,
I'm just gonna let the arrogance and ignorance of your post sink in for yourself, because it's quite clear, although I'm 100% certain you won't see it. *sigh*
Anyway, from MY perspective *THEY* are the ones lying... so why should I (and others who share my opinion) be silenced when YOU are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty? <-- I just pointed out your arrogance and ignorance for you.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 09, 2011, 19:25:12
I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.
The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.
The thing is projection is traditionally "will induced" for all intents and purposes... no special tricks separate the two terms as far as viable methods into the non-physical. So why would the same method take you to a different destination just because you're using a different word to describe the process?
My opinion... I'm an advocate for getting semantics right but it seems some of you are arrested by it. As long as you're lucid and fully aware that's the ideal non-physical experience, why this forum was made, etc.
Quote from: urshebear on June 10, 2011, 06:07:50
wow didnt realise it was such an intense debate but yeeah....say it is all the same thing, what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question :)
You'll quickly learn that it's really more a battle of semantics than anything else. :)
As for the Focus Levels... I *highly* suggest you not worry about those for now, and just move towards practicing and having your own experiences. Journal them, then if you so choose and when you have a sufficient number of experiences logged, go back to them and categorize and compare.
Quote from: urshebear on June 10, 2011, 06:07:50
...what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question :)
It's a fair question.
Monroe defined dreams to be in F 22 as
this link shows (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/wild_vs_phasing-t2832.0.html):
"
Lucid dreaming is Monroe's Focus 22 state."
---
Edit: But notice that some other skilled APers have reported meeting dreaming people in other Focuses. For example can people with special interests travel up to at least Focus 27 if they have certain intentions with them from waking reality. They may still be in a regular dream state, never become lucid and won't remember their dream, but they can go from F 22 to F 27 if they are in the right state of mind of wanting spiritual growth or curiosity.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 10, 2011, 09:19:16
Edit: But notice that some other skilled APers have reported meeting dreaming people in other Focuses. For example can people with special interests travel up to at least Focus 27 if they have certain intentions with them from waking reality. They may still be in a regular dream state, never become lucid and won't remember their dream, but they can go from F 22 to F 27 if they are in the right state of mind of wanting spiritual growth or curiosity.
This is now something I've been removing myself from the Focus Models regarding, as I actually see no reason why a 'dreamer' would be relegated to a single "area" of consciousness.
It makes a lot more sense that we might drift throughout many reality frames while we sleep... allowing our subconscious mind to do the drifting.
In effect, that says that Monroe's Focus 22 (Franks Focus 2, inclusive) doesn't really exist and nailing a precise number on something like that close to, if not entirely, impossible. That would also completely toss out any notion of a "Focus Model of Reality". Since consciousness would then be able to go anywhere at anytime regardless of conscious state of awareness.
Quote from: Xanth on June 10, 2011, 00:03:39
It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*. Understand the difference.
And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it. Enough is enough Pauli.
Pauli is absolutely right. It is deception. It is NOT just your *opinion*. (Claiming a falsehood to be just another opinion is just more deception).
You can say that "in your opinion" the chocolate ice cream is the same as strawberry ice cream but every kid on the block that has tasted both will know that you don't know what you are talking about. They will know that you are wrong.
And posting a hyperlink to another Astralpulse thread that is recently active and directly relevant to the present discussion is NOT spam. I for one appreciate that Pauli goes to the trouble to conveniently provide it.
Thanks Pauli.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 10, 2011, 11:31:40
Pauli is absolutely right. It is deception. It is NOT just your *opinion*. (Claiming a falsehood to be just another opinion is just more deception).
I think it's important for you to realize what you're saying here. And I apologize to the OP, because this is going a bit off topic... but this is something that I see happen many times on this forum and really needs to stop. I'm probably guilty of it myself in the past, and I do try to catch myself before making posts of such nature.
Are you telling me what my opinion is, Ruddy? And further to that, are you telling me that my opinion is wrong?
While you're more than welcome to disagree with me, my opinion which I base entirely upon my own direct experiences, can not by the very definition of "opinion" be wrong.
If someone doesn't agree with you then they're just automatically wrong? Is this how you always debate?
Hopefully you recognize the irony in your statement and choose to not continue such discourse in the future. :)
QuoteYou can say that "in your opinion" the chocolate ice cream is the same as strawberry ice cream but every kid on the block that has tasted both will know that you don't know what you are talking about. They will know that you are wrong.
Again, you're looking at different variables.
How are you comparing the "chocolate ICE CREAM" to the "strawberry ICE CREAM"?
You're not looking at the base nature of the product, which is *
ice cream*.
You're not looking at the base nature of the experience, which is *
consciousness in a reality other than this one.
Again, Ruddy, you say tomato, I say tomoto. You're choosing what you determine to be the difference... I'm choosing what I determine to be the difference. This discussion just further serves to divide an already divided community. Can't we just say... hey, I love and enjoy ice cream! And leave it at that? :)
QuoteAnd posting a hyperlink to another Astralpulse thread that is recently active and directly relevant to the present discussion is NOT spam. I for one appreciate that Pauli goes to the trouble to conveniently provide it.
It is spam when it's done MULTIPLE (read: several times over and over and over and twice within the SAME THREAD) times, as your only response to threads. Single word/single link posts are spam. They're usually overlooked, but do it enough and they will get deleted. It's also a case per case basis... the thread in question is at the very top of its subforum. It doesn't need to be cross posted all over the forum.
We also have a forum search function for a reason. If there's a thread someone talks about, I encourage you to do the legwork and find it.
Holy moly, this is still going? I stand by my "is this really an issue?" Seems to create more problems then it solves. If you can consciously enter a non-physical state of consciousness on a regular basis, you're doing pretty damn good no matter what you call it. I can say that every LD, every OBE, every AP I've had, I've always came away FASCINATED, both in the experience and that I can do it. I've never once went "what exactly was that?" I WAS FULLY AWARE IN ANOTHER STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS!, that's what it was.
Is that not amazing to anyone else? To be able to consciously exist non-physically while having a physical body? 15 years down the line and it's still amazing to me.
And just because a person can write a book about AP doesn't mean anything. I've always considered that Buhlman might be a shill because you could write his stuff just by reading other AP material and a little imagination, yet never AP. I think anyone could.
QuoteAre you telling me what my opinion is, Ruddy? And further to that, are you telling me that my opinion is wrong?
No - if you think that I am, please quote me exactly where I did that. I am saying that you are making a false claim and then trying to hide behind the immunity granted by 'opinion' status.
QuoteIf someone doesn't agree with you then they're just automatically wrong? Is this how you always debate?
Hopefully you recognize the irony in your statement and choose to not continue such discourse in the future.
I do not disagree with those who make true statements. There is no irony in my statement and there is no 'automatic' in my disagreement. Please quote me exactly to point out any irony. (Your groundless implied accusations buried in a baseless interrogation stream is another deceptive semantic tactic).
QuoteAgain, you're looking at different variables.
How are you comparing the "chocolate ICE CREAM" to the "strawberry ICE CREAM"?
Yes, exactly! I am looking at different variables and observing that they are different variables.
okay... spelling it out slowly... The "chocolate ICE CREAM" is akin to LD while the "strawberry ICE CREAM" is full conscious exit OBE.... Get it?
Now, you can admit that you are 80 years old and have smoked 2 packs a day since you were ten and your burnt out taste buds can no longer TASTE the DIFFERENCE -- that would be fine. But to claim chocolate = strawberry is still a false claim.
You can say that your favorite flavor is strawberry and that is your opinion. Fine. But to say strawberry and chocolate are the same? ... now you have just made a false claim. To try and hide the false claim behind 'opinion' status won't fly for those of us who know the difference and for those who do not know the difference, they will only remain confused. And the one who makes the false claim has done a disservice to the neophytes.
LDs are not OBEs
:wink:
Please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
After you've failed that... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post. :)
A toddler could make the distinction between chocolate and strawberry ice cream. What are the exclusive properties of an LD and OBE that warrant this analogy? I still haven't heard a clear distinction between LD and OBE accept the way in which the non-physical is entered... that's like paying before or after you get said ice cream... not a distinction of ice cream flavor.
a lucid dream is when you are aware within the dream. A OBE is when you are not only aware within the dream but also aware that your body is sleeping in your bed & you are not "in it". That's what I think. Thank you.
Quote from: Xanth on June 10, 2011, 13:48:09
Please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
After you've failed that... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post. :)
After I've "failed that"?... and you dare to accuse humble Pauli of arrogance!... geeezz.
Here is one recent place where you made the comparison;
QuoteAstral Projection = Out of body experience = Dreaming = Lucid Dreams = Phasing = Whatever name you might have for it
They're all the same thing
So much for your failure prediction.
I can't believe this crap is still going on...
Rudolph and Pauli2...abstain from your ignorance and take heed of my supreme intelligence... ;D
OOBEs and lucid dreams are terms that we made up. There is only the Phase and the many ways it can be entered and experienced. WILDs is the phasing out of the physical body focus into a visual construct arising in the hypnagogic/hypnopompic states. Astral Projection is a disgusting fantasy name given to the same phenomenon where one has the 'idea' of separating from the body into another visual construct concocted by our unconscious minds which most of the time turns out to be a poor simulation of the bedroom surroundings full of anomalies - a botched illusion by your mind as an attempt to give you 'sense' and comfort after your 'separation'. The truth is, your mind could be duping you but you don't want to consider this as a possibility...oh no, it would go against your beliefs and the mighty Rudolph is never wrong and can't possibly delude his own self.
If WILDs are different from so-called OOBEs then why is it that the latter can turn into a dream, genius? Couldn't that be due to the gradual change in brain activity? After all it's a phase and some call it the Phase state - a very appropriate name if you ask me...8)
QuoteThe truth is, your mind could be duping you but you don't want to consider this as a possibility...oh no, it would go against your beliefs and the mighty Rudolph is never wrong
What beliefs? What am I not considering as a possibility?
Summer, I will thank you to stop putting words in my mouth and beliefs in my heart. Reply to something I have actually said, if you would, please. You do know how to use the quote feature, right?
QuoteIf WILDs are different from so-called OOBEs then why is it that the latter can turn into a dream, genius?
Well, that is such an easy question to answer that I will set the infantile tone and rhetoric aside and simply reply;
The latter can turn into a dream the same way anyone in the waking state can drift into a dream.
As long as the "D" in WILD stands for 'dream' I will say it is different from the level of waking consciousness long associated with the OBE state before the disestablishmentarians came along.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 10, 2011, 07:08:46
I've read old posts and new posts on this forum. And you and some other persons have stated over and over again that LDs are the same as OBEs.
More than a hundred posts!
Hundred "spams".
I don't kid you.
You and others have been writing the forum with more than hundreds posts about something which can be considered a lie.
It can be considered a lie, because you completely ignore skilled projectors like Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson. And you continue to spread your claim which at least seems unsubstantiated. Your claim is unbacked and I would like to point you to read the arguments by Peterson. He has a whole table of arguments. It's in a link on page 3 of the forum thread you threatens to remove linking to.
Why should I be silenced when you are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty?
And you are completely ignoring those who have both arguments, experiences and authority in this field.
Why do you want to spread this kind of statement?
Is it a Frank thing?
This is true, Im with Paulie on this one. Bothers me when new people come to this site asking what the difference is between the 2 and you make sure to tell them its the same. To me its like your telling them they experienced something that there close to but didnt get yet.
Yes, its somewhat annoying that Paulie quotes every author he reads but its the point that counts. If your gonna preach your side of it then he should be able to as well. Let the newbies decide for themselves.
NOT THE SAME -Not even close. Maybe I should put that in my sig :-P
LOL ;D
Rudolph, you are something else, you are. I expected that response from you. Very predictable.
Do yourself a favour and smoke some salvia...you might realise that even the term "dream" is something we came up with as the simplest explanation possible.
Quote from: Tee1234 on June 10, 2011, 18:15:30
NOT THE SAME -Not even close. Maybe I should put that in my sig :-P
Mind explaining the exclusive properties of an OBE and LD, then? Nobody actively supporting this distinction seems to want to explain it based on their own experiences.
Yeah, explain Tee! ;D
QuoteMind explaining the exclusive properties of an OBE and LD, then?
Well, I don't recall anyone claiming that there were any "exclusive" properties. So no one is beholden to the request to supply such.
There is a condition that we all recognize and refer to as the "waking" state.
There is a condition that we all recognize and refer to as the "dream" state.
Most would readily acknowledge that there is some overlap.
I think few would claim that there are mutually exclusive aspects in either that always occur in the one and never in the other. Though there might be. (But I doubt it)
I lucid dream a lot..I am more of a lucid dreamer than anything else. While in the dream I am aware that I'm dreaming, its very vivid, feels real but its more like I am observing it at the same time as being in it. On the rare occasions I have a OBE, I don't feel like I am observing it, I feel like I am totally in my astral body and I am not part of the other stuff going on, I feel more seperated, more of an individual experiencing something objective. Whereas in a lucid dream it feels like I am experiencing my imagination mixed with astral. I feel more in control in the OBE, more aware that its a different reality. Whereas in lucid dreaming I am less in control and more a part of the whole dream than just myself. Even though I know I am dreaming and can change the direction of the story, I still play the part I am in. Hope that makes sense. Its really hard to define & relate that to other people. it doesn't bother me what people want to call it, I am just happy to have these experiences. In a regular vivid dream, I have no idea I am dreaming I just observe it and have no control as to what is going on. Its all like how far beyond your imagination can you get?
QuoteEven though I know I am dreaming and can change the direction of the story, I still play the part I am in. Hope that makes sense.
!
Not only does that make sense but your entire post is practically a affirmation checklist for a goodly portion of the LD vs OBE table in the link that Pauli isn't allowed to link to anymore.
:lol:
Quote from: Rudolph on June 10, 2011, 17:19:22
After I've "failed that"?... and you dare to accuse humble Pauli of arrogance!... geeezz.
Here is one recent place where you made the comparison;
ROFL You failed sir. Why not answer the QUESTION I ASKED instead of obfuscating with something I didn't.
This is your game, I'm not playing your games anymore.
UNLESS you can please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
THEN after you've failed that (AGAIN, mind you)... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post. If you can't directly answer my question, then you are nothing more than smoke and mirrors and deserve the attention of this board no longer.
Going from my experiences I know which side I lean toward but being a newbie :P I don't think my 8 months of experience would hold any value in this debate and I really don't think it matters anyway..... my opinion could even change in years to come.
I am going so say that I am not the type of person to believe what the first person tells me and I think the fact that not everybody thinks the same way is a good thing. I think both sides have valuable points but I'm going to base my opinion on my own experience...
Quote from: Rudolph on June 10, 2011, 19:35:53
Well, I don't recall anyone claiming that there were any "exclusive" properties. So no one is beholden to the request to supply such.
When you say that recognizing an LD from an OBE is analogous to recognizing strawberry from chocolate ice cream it's pretty much implied. If you're saying LD and OBE lay on a spectrum, it's still a fair request that the extremes on this spectrum be identified or else what merit does it have?
I think the bottom line is that there are many aspects of a non-physical experience. Some people experience these aspects in groups and categorize accordingly (LD and OBE.) Others, like myself, experience these aspects as independent from each other without pattern and so categorize based on the two most important aspects (awareness and lucidity.) Neither experience is wrong, neither is "deceiving" the novices. Both beliefs should be showcased and like urshebear mentioned, let the experiences categorize themselves. No need to force belief as fact.
Yes, no need to force any belief as fact. I'm with you there, Astral316! Which goes back to what I was saying to Rudolph when he was denying what people were stating from experience and saying that their statements were misleading.
To Lexy...I've had NON-lucid vivid dreams that were so true to life, highly defined and made me feel like I was absolutely IN them. In fact some of them could beat some of my lucid dreams and OOBEs in terms of realism and definition. How would you explain them?
I'd also like to point out something I've observed ages ago from several Mode 2 OOBE excursions...You enter a realm post vibrations where everything is a thought - even movement/distance - hence the sensation of separation is absolutely illusory!
Both in lucid dreams and Mode 2 OOBEs I have had 2D pictures on walls and was able to plunge into them to find myself in 3D versions of the pictures. I was also able to change the perception of depth into a 2D flat surface and could touch it. Even movement and distance are thoughts. It really disappoints me when retired scientists insist on viewing the metaphysical realm as though it is also a 3D world...I can assure you with a 100% certainty that it is not. You don't really separate...it's an ILLUSION.
Also, in OOBEs, the environment can be affected by observation...you can look in a direction, look away, and then look back to find that things have changed...just like a dream. In all fairness, although different in quality, it could all just be dreams and no amount of whinging is going to take credit away from this POSSIBILITY.
You could just be entering the realm of thoughts and these terms (OOBEs/AP/LDs) could all be the same thing. I haven't seen anyone take into consideration the peculiar dreaming of split-brain patients yet! All I see is Pauli2s and Rudolphs holding on to their Astral Projection fantasies and quoting money-grabbing whores like Buhlman as the absolute truth. Do me a favour and experience it and observe! Think hard about the nature of the experiences!
I've also heard about the silver cord and in three years I haven't seen one. I've also heard about having to do energy work in order to reach higher realms - baloney! - I've had a profound experience in a colourful harmonious world (hence the name "Summerlander") and yet I've never done any energy work! My view is that any of these constructs can be accessed by anyone who is able to consciously focus away from the physical body and into mental constructs which could be personal or collective BSTs in the non-physical field of reality.
Quote from: Summerlander on June 11, 2011, 06:47:04
To Lexy...I've had NON-lucid vivid dreams that were so true to life, highly defined and made me feel like I was absolutely IN them. In fact some of them could beat some of my lucid dreams and OOBEs in terms of realism and definition. How would you explain them?
That's how most my non-lucid dreams are like. They feel EXACTLY like astral projections just without the awareness that I know where I am.
It's just another reason why I don't believe AP's and LD's are separate.
QuoteRudolph when he was denying what people were stating from experience and saying that their statements were misleading.
I never said anyone else's statements about their experience was misleading. I did not deny anyone's experience. I affirmed and acknowledged such. I said the claim of LD=OBE is misleading.
I have noticed over they years that there is a good rule of thumb when evaluating the veracity of a claim when someone says "So-n-so said such-n-such". There is a very simple to use 'quote' feature here and simple cut-n-paste is ... well, simple. When the accuser does not paste in the words they are putting in the mouth of another it is usually because they are putting a distortion or twist or spin on it that isn't there in actual context. Often they are just making it up completely.
This is the mark of a deceiver.
QuoteAll I see is Pauli2s and Rudolphs holding on to their Astral Projection fantasies and quoting money-grabbing whores like Buhlman as the absolute truth
:lol: :lol: :lol:
"their Astral Projection fantasies"...?...
Gee Summer, sounds a little like you are "denying what people were stating from experience"!
And I never quoted anything Buhlman said as "absolute truth".
You really are on a deception streak today.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 09, 2011, 12:26:18
And I think describing the various OBE states as "experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees" is a good way to put it but using the mathematical "=" sign is going too far. They are NOT 'equal'.
you have to consider the context rudy.
in the sense that they are all experiences of the same "place", an equal sign is entirely appropriate.
as far as the content of each experience, they are different, but again, they are just different degrees of the same thing.
hot and cold are just varying degrees of the same thing. hot and cold are the same thing, 100%.
we're talking polarity here, physical <----> nonphysical. both are the same reality seen from varying perspectives, but they are still the same. once you see this you will understand that everything is equal to everything and everything is the ALL, bottom line.
beyond that, you are splitting hairs.
however, since we're talking about this, it's not really practical to try and distinguish between modes of conscious experience or degrees. we can perceive these differences, sure, but just like there is no line on the thermometer that differentiates hot from cold, there is no definite distinction between each mode of conscious perception. what i experience as astral projection is not what you experience and you cannot deny that. it's the nature of subjective experience. the degrees of variability in polarity are infinite and subtly different. so in my opinion, you're arguing over something that can't be definitively proven.
but whatever, you like to argue your point and i get that, i do too. you need to be right.
hey rudy, would you be willing to give me your birth information? i would be interested in seeing your natal chart. if you are, i'd need your birthday, birth time and location. i understand if you don't want to, it is a bit personal and this is the internet.
Quoteso in my opinion, you're arguing over something that can't be definitively proven.
but whatever, you like to argue your point and i get that, i do too. you need to be right.
To say that there are varying degrees is true, but neither here nor there. What is at issue here is introducing ambiguity by stating LD=OBE and saying "ohhh, see it all just a matter of degrees" -- which is true but it begs the issue. Hot does not equal cold and even warm is not hot. We have the different words for a reason. Why the insistence upon muddying the waters like that?
Also, it is not that I *need* to be right but more that I prefer to be right. (why would anyone want to be wrong?) :?
[actually some acquiesce in a "can't we all just get along" sense, but in the end that is counter-productive, imo]
I have been Seeking Truth since well before half the kids here were even so much as an itch in their daddy's pants and I have gotten pretty good at it over the years. I make no apology for that.
I also get a kick out of watching folks of a certain rigid, elitist, superior mindset react to seeing their false assumptions revealed like the Wizard behind the curtain.
I am a capable astrologer and will PM you the pertinent details on a confidential basis.
Quote from: Xanth on June 11, 2011, 09:51:31
That's how most my non-lucid dreams are like. They feel EXACTLY like astral projections just without the awareness that I know where I am.
It's just another reason why I don't believe AP's and LD's are separate.
Exactly. And that is a valid reason for doubting that AP's and LD's are separate. 8-)
@ Rudy:It depends on the context, Rudy. sometimes people want to be proved wrong. In your case, you want to be right all the time (like everyone, sure) but it is
impossible for you to admit that you are wrong. :roll:
Quote from: Rudolph on June 11, 2011, 12:52:10
Also, it is not that I *need* to be right but more that I prefer to be right. (why would anyone want to be wrong?) :?
[actually some acquiesce in a "can't we all just get along" sense, but in the end that is counter-productive, imo]
I have been Seeking Truth since well before half the kids here were even so much as an itch in their daddy's pants and I have gotten pretty good at it over the years. I make no apology for that.
I also get a kick out of watching folks of a certain rigid, elitist, superior mindset react to seeing their false assumptions revealed like the Wizard behind the curtain.
Oh I think you need to be right, lol. I think I need to be right too though, so it's not a dig at you. :lol: :wink:
And I understand the joy of poking people, but all truth is only a half truth. the other side of the coin is always equally true. it's not an ambiguous cop-out, it's the nature of reality, the nature of that polarity i was talking about.
I also don't think that length of time seeking truth is necessarily an accurate portrait of wisdom (though I don't think that's quite what you were saying, so my apologies if i put words in your mouth). I'm only 25, I've been seeking truth for about 10-15 years, but I often have found myself showing elderly seekers a thing or two. For example, I have a very good friend who is a 62 year old christo-pagan wiccan priest who has been seeking for the better part of 50 years and I schooled his old butt daily when I lived near him (though he equally schooled me on other subjects). Point being, don't let yourself fall into the elitist power trap either friend.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 11, 2011, 12:52:10
I also get a kick out of watching folks of a certain rigid, elitist, superior mindset react to seeing their false assumptions revealed like the Wizard behind the curtain.
And I can *GUARANTEE* that if you keep that attitude, you won't be posting here for much longer.
Now, Rudy, are you gonna answer my previous question?
QuoteUNLESS you can please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
THEN after you've failed that (AGAIN, mind you)... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post.
Because so far, as my initial assertion made, you have FAILED.
This is exactly why the guys at Astral Viewers banned him. By the way, Xanth, can you clarify to Rudy that me and you have not been talking about him behind his back? He went all paranoid on me and PMed me on Raduga's OOBE Forum about the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory.
Quote from: Summerlander on June 11, 2011, 17:14:43
This is exactly why the guys at Astral Viewers banned him. By the way, Xanth, can you clarify to Rudy that me and you have not been talking about him behind his back? He went all paranoid on me and PMed me on Raduga's OOBE Forum about the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory.
Summer, you are such a disgusting so-n-so! (and ridiculously dishonest)
Talking openly about comments made in a PM on a separate forum is a gigantic faux pas of outlandish proportion... how could anyone consider you a decent human being after this outlandish display?!
Here is one example;
You said this while I was temporarily banned here;
"By the way, I've been in touch with Rudy...
He's only got three words for all of you and it's not "I love you""
No such conversation *ever* took place. I never made any comment that would fit that scenario. The liar completely made it up out of whole cloth.
I recently asked you privately if you had been in communication with Xanth (over our communal disagreement - nothing to do with "the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory") because it would be consistent with your modus operandi.
{could you possibly stoop any lower?}
Outlandish display? It's the truth though, isn't it Rudy.
Why are you getting so upset though? It's nothing major...
By the way, who said I was a decent human being? :D
Quote from: Summerlander on June 11, 2011, 17:14:43
This is exactly why the guys at Astral Viewers banned him. By the way, Xanth, can you clarify to Rudy that me and you have not been talking about him behind his back? He went all paranoid on me and PMed me on Raduga's OOBE Forum about the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory.
Thats pretty dirty Summer. If somebody PMs you, its private. You dont go blabbering it on the boards. Not that you care but you just lost my respect.
Guys, how about we all just step back from this discussion and take a breather. I'm calling a time out on this discussion for now. I'll revisit the locking of this thread in a few days.
I will say though, that I do agree about the PM issue... PM's are private for a reason. Let's try and see that doesn't happen again. :)
Although, I would like to say that I'd appreciate it if everyone could try to remain civil and be a little more light-hearted while posting here on the Astral Pulse. It'd be much appreciated as we're all friends here.