Hi all,
I have an interesting question I want to pose and hear as many opinions as possible from anyone who has projectd successfully.
My question is, how many of you who have successfully been to the astral, consider yourself athiests? And also, if you were an athiest and changed your mind after projecting I would like to hear from you as well.
I have heard of a few people who claim they have projected but still call themselves an athiest which makes no sense to me... Being that athiest believe in nothing after death, that you just are gone. It seems to me that projecting and interacting with entities and spirits would be proof enough that there IS an afterlife at the least.
I am not an athiest I just am curious about this subject because it seems contradictory.
I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, but not any more. I've evolved quite a ways beyond that. I still do believe in some kind of "source" which some might call God.
I think that AP helps show you that our consciousness is what manifests the reality that we experience, that consciousness is outside of time and space and is also connected. From there the concept of some kind of "source" and consciousness continuing on seems to make sense as well, at least for me.
To me, consciousness must be eternal. It is something that just IS and must exist outside of space and time. I've often asked myself: how can a consciousness being simply become nothing? Some believe it can, because they believe that consciousness requires a human brain. I think consciousness exists outside of our physical reality. That's something you can also experience through AP.
Quote from: deepspace on January 03, 2014, 01:16:54
I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, but not any more. I've evolved quite a ways beyond that. I still do believe in some kind of "source" which some might call God.
I think that AP helps show you that our consciousness is what manifests the reality that we experience, that consciousness is outside of time and space and is also connected. From there the concept of some kind of "source" and consciousness continuing on seems to make sense as well, at least for me.
To me, consciousness must be eternal. It is something that just IS and must exist outside of space and time. I've often asked myself: how can a consciousness being simply become nothing? Some believe it can, because they believe that consciousness requires a human brain. I think consciousness exists outside of our physical reality. That's something you can also experience through AP.
I feel exactly the same and I do believe in "source" which I call God.
Quote from: Astral-Trea on January 03, 2014, 02:00:39I had a very long talk with my wife recently and she finally convinced me to just stop worrying about what to call myself because that struggle is probably holding me back from further envolving spiritually.
Your wife is a very wise person.
Forget about labels. They hinder progress. Don't say:
I am X.
I am Y.
I am Z.
You are not that. It's an illusion you created in this life.
Drop XYZ and say "I am." instead. No X, Y or Z. This is closest to the truth.
You are not Christian, you are not Atheist. This is all personal history accounts which the ego depends on and tries to limit itself by becoming segregated from other people, groups, histories, etc. It needs this to feed on it. To reach self-gratification by being "special", ironically it often does so by 'belonging' to a group with certain set beliefs and world views.
In truth, it's more simple: You are.
In your first post, you even only offered two labels to choose from (Christian vs. Atheist) which is even more limited. If you're no Christian (I am not) you are automatically Atheist? I don't think so.
I am in no religion but I don't consider myself Atheist, most of all since I do not want to put any labels on me, but also since I 'believe' (if you will) in the mystical "Source" view of God or All-That-Is.
Unfortunately, this is how many discussions in our society still are going on, like this:
"You are not this (what I am), so you are that, because there is only Y or Z. So I can (as member of Y) argue against you (as member of Z), or even fight you, at least with arguments..." .... and so on...
We should get beyond these kinds of discussions and discourses if we want to evolve, or simply 'grow up'.
Perhaps you really should think with a different mindset. It will help you develop.
Your existance thats known is in one tiny corner of the wider reality. Therefore anything physically related is a handicap of sorts. Search for the truth, the bigger picture, by experiences in the wider reality. Eventually you'll start to see how vast it all is. Labels help explain things but these too are limited. Some things you'll experience defy words, they don't exist.
Be open and explore.
Quote from: Volgerle on January 03, 2014, 06:35:42
Your wife is a very wise person.
Forget about labels. They hinder progress. Don't say:
I am X.
I am Y.
I am Z.
You are not that. It's an illusion you created in this life.
Drop XYZ and say "I am." instead. No X, Y or Z. This is closest to the truth.
You are not Christian, you are not Atheist. This is all personal history accounts which the ego depends on and tries to limit itself by becoming segregated from other people, groups, histories, etc. It needs this to feed on it. To reach self-gratification by being "special", ironically it often does so by 'belonging' to a group with certain set beliefs and world views.
In truth, it's more simple: You are.
In your first post, you even only offered two labels to choose from (Christian vs. Atheist) which is even more limited. If you're no Christian (I am not) you are automatically Atheist? I don't think so.
I am in no religion but I don't consider myself Atheist, most of all since I do not want to put any labels on me, but also since I 'believe' (if you will) in the mystical "Source" view of God or All-That-Is.
Unfortunately, this is how many discussions in our society still are going on, like this:
"You are not this (what I am), so you are that, because there is only Y or Z. So I can (as member of Y) argue against you (as member of Z), or even fight you, at least with arguments..." .... and so on...
We should get beyond these kinds of discussions and discourses if we want to evolve, or simply 'grow up'.
Ok, while I agree with your comments about labels... This POLL isnt about me. I probably shouldnt have posted my own thoughts on it since it is getting people off topic. So I have altered my response above in the hopes to keep people on topic. i also never gave people a "choice" between christian or athiest. I made a comment about Christians which has also been removed as to not confuse people as to what the question here is.
**The question is, are their any people here who have successfully projected to the astral, that consider themselves athiests. If so, why?**
While you may not choose to label your beliefs, labels exist for most beliefs and religions out there.... For instance... Some people may just call themselves spiritual or agnostic meaning they believe in an afterlife and a source or god, but not other aspects of religion like hell and the devil etc.
Athiests believe in no afterlife, no god, no soul, nothing at all. Which is why I can't understand how someone who has asral projected could possibly believe in this way. My guess is the people in this category are a minority and there probably are not alot of them here.
Even though I've been projecting since I was a child, I can't say whether my decisions about worldview were influenced by my experiences-although I always had the feeling that I was a small part of a larger conscious system (or feelings to that effect)- it was a deep down knowing instead of a thought process. As I got older, my thought system started to look for organized religious/spiritual systems to fit my 'feelings' about 'reality', and when I found one, I embraced it, which is panentheism- (not pantheism).
Quote from: CFTraveler on January 03, 2014, 10:46:25
Even though I've been projecting since I was a child, I can't say whether my decisions about worldview were influenced by my experiences-although I always had the feeling that I was a small part of a larger conscious system (or feelings to that effect)- it was a deep down knowing instead of a thought process. As I got older, my thought system started to look for organized religious/spiritual systems to fit my 'feelings' about 'reality', and when I found one, I embraced it, which is panentheism- (not pantheism).
Wow, I didn't really know that my belief had such a name. Thank You CFT for that! :-)
I used to search for answers and labels as well. Is there a God, isn't there a God? What is God? When I was younger I was in Church choirs, went to Church Camps, was at all the Church functions, until one day I went to our Minister's residence for a brief Church party. He had a huge home and 2 New Yorkers and a new Corvette for his daughter.
I looked around at all the other parishioner's cars that were there and saw that they were old and beat up. But, every Sunday I saw these people giving away basically their last money to he Church. That was my first eye opener as a child. Then later on I started to read and listen to what was being said in Church, once I was old enough to go to the adult portion, since I had always been in the Child portion of the Church (Sunday School). I heard that God struck down the bad, but blessed the good. I knew that many of the people there had their own problems, some were Alcoholics, some were abusers of children and their spouses, etc. But they would go every week and think that their actions for the last 6 days would magically be forgiven. All of this was very confusing for a young child to see. I didn't feel I wanted any part of this charade anymore. So I quit going to Church.
I still believed what was in my heart and didn't think I needed to be in any certain place to pray or show my respect to God. This opened me to the idea that God was everywhere in everything. That God wasn't a singular, but was part of everything around.
My AP explorations later on in life reinforced this belief. It's not that I don't believe in God, it's that I believe God as the pure Source of all, existence, Consciousness itself.
I don't believe that God "directly" created man, but we will leave that for another discussion someday! :wink:
I'm a big fan of the ACIM precept "God creates by extension". It creates a lot of cognitive dissonance with many people, but I like it.
Quote from: Lionheart on January 03, 2014, 16:48:09
Wow, I didn't really know that my belief had such a name. Thank You CFT for that! :-)
I used to search for answers and labels as well. Is there a God, isn't there a God? What is God? When I was younger I was in Church choirs, went to Church Camps, was at all the Church functions, until one day I went to our Minister's residence for a brief Church party. He had a huge home and 2 New Yorkers and a new Corvette for his daughter.
I looked around at all the other parishioner's cars that were there and saw that they were old and beat up. But, every Sunday I saw these people giving away basically their last money to he Church. That was my first eye opener as a child. Then later on I started to read and listen to what was being said in Church, once I was old enough to go to the adult portion, since I had always been in the Child portion of the Church (Sunday School). I heard that God struck down the bad, but blessed the good. I knew that many of the people there had their own problems, some were Alcoholics, some were abusers of children and their spouses, etc. But they would go every week and think that their actions for the last 6 days would magically be forgiven. All of this was very confusing for a young child to see. I didn't feel I wanted any part of this charade anymore. So I quit going to Church.
I still believed what was in my heart and didn't think I needed to be in any certain place to pray or show my respect to God. This opened me to the idea that God was everywhere in everything. That God wasn't a singular, but was part of everything around.
My AP explorations later on in life reinforced this belief. It's not that I don't believe in God, it's that I believe God as the pure Source of all, existence, Consciousness itself.
I don't believe that God "directly" created man, but we will leave that for another discussion someday! :wink:
Very true Lionheart! I have realised this a while back as well... It really bugged me seeing how first of all, what use would God have for money? Then why would it have to be a certain percentage of your income? All nonsense then if you pass the plate without giving cause maybe you don't have anything to spare, you get the stares and glares. lol It is all such a scam like so much other stuff... It has been currupted by man.
I am going to assume that arent any athiest APers here since I havent heard from any. I didn't really expect to but was hoping to cause I think it would start a very big and deep conversation. One of the couple of people I heard talking like that was a guy on youtube from England who talks about AP but also alot of other things. I am going to assume that he either hasnt figured himself and life out yet or he never has really projected cause alot of what he says doesnt make much sense to me.
Quote from: Astral-Trea on January 03, 2014, 18:32:38
I am going to assume that arent any athiest APers here since I havent heard from any. I didn't really expect to but was hoping to cause I think it would start a very big and deep conversation.
I would imagine it's hard to travel through a realm you don't believe in. :-)
Quote from: deepspace on January 03, 2014, 23:11:55
I would imagine it's hard to travel through a realm you don't believe in. :-)
It would tend to cause a lot of "cognitive dissonance", that's for sure! :wink:
Being an atheist does not mean you believe in nothing after death.. No offense, but you should learn what an atheist is before you use the term. An atheist is someone who does not believe in any god. That is all. Also, just because one doesn't believe in God, it doesn't mean he/she rejects each and every aspect of spirituality. There are people called spiritual atheists who do not believe in a creator yet are well aware of the spirit world.
Quote from: mimihigurashi on January 04, 2014, 05:44:13
Being an atheist does not mean you believe in nothing after death.. No offense, but you should learn what an atheist is before you use the term. An atheist is someone who does not believe in any god. That is all. Also, just because one doesn't believe in God, it doesn't mean he/she rejects each and every aspect of spirituality. There are people called spiritual atheists who do not believe in a creator yet are well aware of the spirit world.
I think most of us know the definition of an atheist. And yes atheism does not mean you can't believe in spirituality, but as a practical matter, most people who deny the existence of any kind of higher spiritual power, or source (not just the conventional religious definition of "God") are also people who don't believe in anything other than the physical world and scientifically provable phenomena. That's usually their basis for their lack of belief in such things. Personally, I know quite a few atheists and none of them believe in spirituality. But apparently it's more common in Eastern culture.
Quote from: mimihigurashi on January 04, 2014, 05:44:13
Being an atheist does not mean you believe in nothing after death.. No offense, but you should learn what an atheist is before you use the term. An atheist is someone who does not believe in any god. That is all. Also, just because one doesn't believe in God, it doesn't mean he/she rejects each and every aspect of spirituality. There are people called spiritual atheists who do not believe in a creator yet are well aware of the spirit world.
Yes, but the problem is: they are a tiny tiny tiny minority. Not even noticable in the vast pool of all those self-professed 'atheists' about whom one can certainly state that the words 'materialist' or 'reductionist' (partially even the term 'humanist') are almost perfect synonyms. (Do the test yourself and visit any 'atheist forum' :wink: :| )
Quote from: Volgerle on January 04, 2014, 10:41:03
Yes, but the problem is: they are a tiny tiny tiny minority. Not even noticable in the vast pool of all those self-professed 'atheists' about whom one can certainly state that the words 'materialist' or 'reductionist' (partially even the term 'humanist') are almost perfect synonyms. (Do the test yourself and visit any 'atheist forum' :wink: :| )
They might be a tiny minority, but that doesn't mean there is no difference between an atheist and a spiritual atheist, there is quite a big one. I wouldn't visit an atheist forum, nowadays, at least from my experience, most atheists are actually anti-theists obsessed with science and bent on ridiculing each and every thing that is remotely spiritual in some way. They call religious folks closed minded when they themselves seem to be incredibly closed minded to anything that cannot be "proven" by science.
Quote from: mimihigurashi on January 04, 2014, 05:44:13
Being an atheist does not mean you believe in nothing after death.. No offense, but you should learn what an atheist is before you use the term. An atheist is someone who does not believe in any god. That is all. Also, just because one doesn't believe in God, it doesn't mean he/she rejects each and every aspect of spirituality. There are people called spiritual atheists who do not believe in a creator yet are well aware of the spirit world.
I agree with this. I am an atheist, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe there's nothing left after death. It's an unusual combination, I know :wink:
Quote from: mimihigurashi on January 04, 2014, 13:00:45
They might be a tiny minority, but that doesn't mean there is no difference between an atheist and a spiritual atheist, there is quite a big one. I wouldn't visit an atheist forum, nowadays, at least from my experience, most atheists are actually anti-theists obsessed with science and bent on ridiculing each and every thing that is remotely spiritual in some way. They call religious folks closed minded when they themselves seem to be incredibly closed minded to anything that cannot be "proven" by science.
Well then you understand what I am saying because I have known quite a few athiests.. Ppl who call themselves athiests, and they have all told me that thy believe when you die, you are just dead and there is nothing beyond this physical life. They all say they believe life, consciencenessl, and the entire universe is some sort of coincidence that happened by random. I have hever heard of a spiritual athiest but all the athiests I have known are not spiritual... After all, if there is no god or source, or any higher form of conscienceness than us, how could their be an afterlife? (In their eyes)
Maybe the formal definition of athiest only refers to not believing in gods but if that is so, then what is the proper term for all these people who believe in nothing whatsoever other than a one time physical life? Cause they have all certainly adopted the term.
Quote from: Astral-Trea on January 05, 2014, 00:01:51
Maybe the formal definition of athiest only refers to not believing in gods but if that is so, then what is the proper term for all these people who believe in nothing whatsoever other than a one time physical life?
materialist (physicalist, humanist, reductionist, close-minded skeptic, esp. the latter surely not being a self-titled one :-D)
Quote from: Volgerle on January 05, 2014, 07:19:10
materialist (physicalist, humanist, reductionist, close-minded skeptic, esp. the latter surely not being a self-titled one :-D)
It's kind of funny, because at the quantum level, the whole concept of materialism has never been proven to even exist at all. Every new experiment proves to even more certainty that there is no such thing, at least in Quantum Mechanics.
So I guess we must have two different sets of laws. :-D
Quote from: Volgerle on January 05, 2014, 07:19:10
materialist (physicalist, humanist, reductionist, close-minded skeptic, esp. the latter surely not being a self-titled one :-D)
I find it very funny (but also sad) how many of these people who call themselves athiests have no clue what they really are. Yet they are so determined to lash out at and try to convert everyone around them to their same belief (or lack of belief) system. This is why I think that this belief has become a religion in itself because they are making it a mission to convert other people, there are churches devoted to it, and they are spending lots of money on advertising (I have seen alot of billboards.)
Quote from: Astral-Trea on January 05, 2014, 13:01:45
I find it very funny (but also sad) how many of these people who call themselves athiests have no clue what they really are. Yet they are so determined to lash out at and try to convert everyone around them to their same belief (or lack of belief) system. This is why I think that this belief has become a religion in itself because they are making it a mission to convert other people, there are churches devoted to it, and they are spending lots of money on advertising (I have seen alot of billboards.)
It's just another rigid belief system, just like the ones they claim to be opposed to. I have met a lot of fundamentalist religious people, but even the worst of them are loving when compared to some of the atheists. To some of them, belief in anything spiritual means you are weak, stupid, ignorant and dismissive of the almighty SCIENCE. And they often have really arrogant attitudes and no trouble telling you what they think of your inferior status as a believer in things unproven by science. The fundamentalist religious people have nothing on them.
Quote from: deepspace on January 06, 2014, 00:26:37
It's just another rigid belief system, just like the ones they claim to be opposed to. I have met a lot of fundamentalist religious people, but even the worst of them are loving when compared to some of the atheists. To some of them, belief in anything spiritual means you are weak, stupid, ignorant and dismissive of the almighty SCIENCE. And they often have really arrogant attitudes and no trouble telling you what they think of your inferior status as a believer in things unproven by science. The fundamentalist religious people have nothing on them.
I agree 100% as that has been my experience with them as well.
I've concluded that you eventually reach a point where there is no value in any "belief system", even our physical reality which to me is no more than a collective belief system anyway.
All belief systems are incomplete at best, and will limit your growth at some point since they are inherently restrictive. Many are based on fear too, which makes them even more of hindrance to growth.
My spiritual life has grown significantly since I've unloaded this kind of excess baggage.
Quote from: deepspace on January 06, 2014, 21:39:01
I've concluded that you eventually reach a point where there is no value in any "belief system", even our physical reality which to me is no more than a collective belief system anyway.
All belief systems are incomplete at best, and will limit your growth at some point since they are inherently restrictive. Many are based on fear too, which makes them even more of hindrance to growth.
My spiritual life has grown significantly since I've unloaded this kind of excess baggage.
I again agree, however I would like to point out that so many of us refer to religions and such as belief systems.. Which they are. But, is not what we here on this forum believe.. Also a belief system? I ask because I believe certain things about life, reality, the afterlife, souls, etc.. That are a culmination of various experiences and beliefs... But is that different than a belief "system" because it is not so mainstream or based in fear? I realize alot of relgious belief systems are based on fear but maybe not all that would be called that are. What do you think?
Quote from: Astral-Trea on January 07, 2014, 12:31:41But, is not what we here on this forum believe.. Also a belief system? I ask because I believe certain things about life, reality, the afterlife, souls, etc.. That are a culmination of various experiences and beliefs... But is that different than a belief "system" because it is not so mainstream or based in fear? I realize alot of relgious belief systems are based on fear but maybe not all that would be called that are. What do you think?
You can call it belief (system). But there is a difference: It is based on EXPERIENCE.
A BS that is based on EXPERIENCE instead of mere fear-dogma has much more 'truthability' in it, imv.
By this I mean conclusions from your own adventures as AP/OBEr or clairvoyant or whatever psychic ability you have but also that of other EXPERIENCErs, such as other 'projectors' and of course the ones that write books about it, Monroe, Buhlman, Leeland & Co.
Personally, I also include the information we get from regressive hypnosis (from books, my personal attempt unfortunately failed :-(, ... but at least I tried to EXPERIENCE it .. :-D) and compare it to that of AP. But that is just my personal take on it, to get to my 'belief system' if you will, although I'd also like to say it is best to have no firm beliefs at all about anything.
Quote from: Astral-Trea on January 07, 2014, 12:31:41
I again agree, however I would like to point out that so many of us refer to religions and such as belief systems.. Which they are. But, is not what we here on this forum believe.. Also a belief system? I ask because I believe certain things about life, reality, the afterlife, souls, etc.. That are a culmination of various experiences and beliefs... But is that different than a belief "system" because it is not so mainstream or based in fear? I realize alot of relgious belief systems are based on fear but maybe not all that would be called that are. What do you think?
There is a difference from beliefs and belief systems. We are discussing things here and trying to find the truth, not just accepting someone else's version of it. It's like the difference between, chewing on food as opposed to sticking an IV into your vein. And we are open to changing our views or modifying them, at least I am.
I too think religions are belief systems, they have everything you are supposed to believe already defined and packaged for you. You are supposed to swallow it whole, accept it without modifying it based on what makes sense to you or what your experiences have been. I think they are O.K. as a starting point, but we need to move beyond them.
I have a friend who is a fundamentalist christian and we used to do all kinds of christian activities together when I was part of that belief system. He is quite disappointed now with my new beliefs (but no system). I was explaining to him some of what I thought and why. He got angry and seemed almost insulted, saying something like, "What gives you the right to come up with your own version of who or what God is, what the afterlife will be like or anything else? God gave us the truth in the bible already" I was really taken aback. He reminded me of someone from a cult who was threatened and recoiling in fear. I know for sure I made the right choice by leaving. One thing I thought about after his visit was the huge
investment people make into belief systems and how hard it is to unwind that if you know what I mean. I went through it myself.
So yes we do develop our own beliefs, but I'd say they are more what I would call a
map of reality than a
belief system. More of functional diagram to help us understand things than an absolute "this is how it is" kind of belief. I try to avoid those. And they are evolving and growing, so we don't have to claim we have the answers yet.
But getting beyond that, beyond
any beliefs, that can give you even more freedom to experience what's there and just be an observer. If we can at least suspend our beliefs and simply experience and observe, that often allows us to take things in at deeper level. Then to realize deeper things which just naturally come up to the surface without our figuring them out. You just become aware.
Quote from: deepspace on January 07, 2014, 20:36:00
God gave us the truth in the bible already.
If we can at least suspend our beliefs and simply experience and observe, that often allows us to take things in at deeper level. Then to realize deeper things which just naturally come up to the surface without our figuring them out. You just become aware.
What many of these people don't seem to realize is that God did not "write" the Bible, man did!
Did you know that the "Great Flood" was described in the Sumerian Tablets, thousands of years before the Bible was written?
There's no control to be had when you are having people experience and observe things for themselves. "Awareness" is controls worse nightmare! :wink:
Great points by all! :-D
Hey, that is great discussion, I couldn't be agreeing more.
To the initial post of Astral-Tea, though: Maybe I have got something new for you. There is this guy I know and I was talking with him about dreams and stuff and then we got to OOBEs. He told me about his experiences (from what he described I am pretty sure it was an OOBE: vibrations, then floating in his bedroom etc.) and then went on explaining how he had found how to perform this "self-hypnosis" on the internet and how it was just a work of the brain and nothing more. When I told him about my views and my experience, he accepted my POV but told me he didn't believe in this spiritual stuff.
So here you have your answer. Also atheists can AP. But there was probably no cognitive dissonance to it, that is true. He believed in his ability to do it, just didn't share our views on what it really was.
Yeah and I used to be an atheist before my first (and so far the last :-( , but hopefully not for long :-) ) OOBE. It totally rocked my view on the life and opened my mind to things I would haveconsidered crazy before. But you might have already read that in another thread.
But it was more complicated than that. I come from a family where my dad doesn't believe in anything after death and my mother is a christian and her parents are into it even more. They often made me go to church with them and pray before sleep, bought my children Bibles... when I was a small kid. So I automatically became a christianity-follower too. But as I grew a bit older and started developing my own sense, I began to question the palpable absurdity of christian dogmas and the belief itself. Back then I knew nothing but the different approaches of my parents so when I found myself disagreeing with my mother's I figured my father's must be correct. I also became interested in science... so here we go (doesn't mean I am not anymore, just have a more open-minded view).
From that moment on I was an atheist and never gave much thought to this area. It never occured to me there might be some othere "truth" than a rigid religious belief-system and atheist nonbelief-system (no less rigid by the way :wink: , but we all now this). Until that OOBE I had. So yes, this experience changed me a lot and to better, I think. And what a coincidence it was, I never meant to consciously AP. But we all, including Master Yoda :lol:, know that "There is no such a thing as coincidence, only the Force." :wink:
Quote from: Lionheart on January 08, 2014, 01:29:42
What many of these people don't seem to realize is that God did not "write" the Bible, man did!
Did you know that the "Great Flood" was described in the Sumerian Tablets, thousands of years before the Bible was written?
and there's many more, hundreds of "Earth Flood Myths" all over the ancient world in every part of the planet
Quote from: BranStark on January 08, 2014, 13:13:16
So here you have your answer. Also atheists can AP. But there was probably no cognitive dissonance to it, that is true. He believed in his ability to do it, just didn't share our views on what it really was.
I think that's an important distinction to make. Life is more about
experience than
belief. We get hung up too much sometimes about whether we
believe in something. What's more important is the value it has. As an example, it's not necessary for me to "believe in" the dream guides or whatever we want to call the entities that show in my dreams. The experiences have so much value and there is often some wisdom given to me that I need. Sometimes it's just the sense of being completely loved that can stay with me for the entire day. So I don't need to get hung up in whether they were spiritual beings, or parts of my higher self or whatever. I think we waste of lot energy trying to decide on these things, it takes away from what we are really here to do: experience.
Last night there was a speaker on Coast to Coast AM named Matthew Alper. He is a self proclaimed Atheist and wrote a book called "The God Part of the Brain". He said that he came to his conclusions due to his explorations via meditation, drugs and Altered Realities. he attempts to answer the question "Is man the product of God...or is God the product of human evolution?"
Once the video is up for replay I will post a link to it. It was interesting and he gave some no nonsense compelling arguments for his belief.
But in the end, I fear that someday someone will have to "Retrieve" him from his belief system zone, once he passes on.
But what kind of zone would that be if they don't believe there is no "zone", if they think this is finality?
Here's a link to his website: http://www.godpart.com/
Quote from: Lionheart on January 09, 2014, 16:45:18
But in the end, I fear that someday someone will have to "Retrieve" him from his belief system zone, once he passes on.
But what kind of zone would that be if they don't believe there is no "zone", if they think this is finality?
I have this question as well. I've read some opinions on this, mostly saying people who believe there is nothing will need to be allowed to have a something like a period of sleep after which they will approached. Others say they will be in a place like what some describe as the void, but also when they are ready, will be helped of course.
In any case, my guess is that they will be easier to get out than people who have fear attachments to their belief systems or people who made huge investments into their belief systems. The fear-based ones seem to me to be the worst-case scenario because those trying to help might be seen as demons or evil entities trying to trick them into leaving. The Bible says that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive believers (something I once believed in). This, to me, seems particularly harmful. If such belief system zones do exist, they will be filled entirely with people who have the same beliefs so unlike our life on Earth, there will be no one to disagree or help them out of it. That's a scary thought. I am SO glad I got rid of my fear-based belief system before my exit.
Quote from: Lionheart on January 09, 2014, 16:45:18
Last night there was a speaker on Coast to Coast AM named Matthew Alper. He is a self proclaimed Atheist and wrote a book called "The God Part of the Brain". He said that he came to his conclusions due to his explorations via meditation, drugs and Altered Realities. he attempts to answer the question "Is man the product of God...or is God the product of human evolution?"
Once the video is up for replay I will post a link to it. It was interesting and he gave some no nonsense compelling arguments for his belief.
But in the end, I fear that someday someone will have to "Retrieve" him from his belief system zone, once he passes on.
But what kind of zone would that be if they don't believe there is no "zone", if they think this is finality?
Here's a link to his website: http://www.godpart.com/
I listened to his spill recently when he was on Art Bell's Dark Matter... I wasn't impressed with him at all. He claims to do alot of research but if you listen to him speak, you can see how extremely close minded he is. He is not at all willing to change his opinion in an afterlife, only to do research to try to prove himself right.
One of the things that really urks me about some people is when they claim NDE is some sort of hallucination in the brain. There are many cases I have researched where people were confirmed to have no brain activity at all (brain dead) and they had these experiences to the point where they were able to tell others what was being discussed and done in the room after they were dead. His explaination I believe was that they somehow heard these things. You cant hear or see when your eyes are closed and you have no brain activity.. He wont touch that though.. He just makes the assumption that the person isn't really dead, that they are dying and have an experience due to the brain having a lack of oxygen.
These guys stay far away from the cases of people being in comas with no brain activity for mnths and then waking up and talking about their OBE, or blind women who have never seen before dying and being able to describe in detail everything and everyone in the operating room. Sorry to rant.. There is just too much evidence like this that guys like Alper refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't help reenforce his belief system. And claiming to have confirmed these things and publicizing it in books just serves to lead already confused people off of a cliff. Hopefully some of these people will go through an awakening like most of us have... But if not, and there is a job opening for retriever after I finish this life, i would like to try to help those people.
Many people are searching for some sort of an objective reality with absolute concepts, mainly I think for comfort and security. The whole idea of materialism is just one big illusion. The idea that reality is subjective and experience-based requires you to let go of the concept of physical world being this fixed, solid world of predictable rules. It's only that way because of our collective belief in it.
Quote from: Lionheart on January 09, 2014, 16:45:18... he gave some no nonsense compelling arguments for his belief ...
I haven't listened to the link of this guys interview, had enough of this BS....
But I still cannot believe the "arguments" are 'no nonsense'. I think they are nonsense, and they are the same all over (that's why I spare me a listening).
They possibly only make sense within the narrow confines of their little dark tiny mind-box into which these people incarcerate themselves. This is how it goes: "I have everything neatly measured out in here in my little box. Newton physics is enough for me. Reductionist science has explained it all. I have figured it all out. There is no outside world. There is no wider reality. I won't open the door, I won't open the windows. There is nothing outside. Nothing! All those spirtual people talking about an outside world are nutters ..." (etc. pp.) :wink:
Quote from: Volgerle on January 11, 2014, 13:14:52
I haven't listened to the link of this guys interview, had enough of this BS....
But I still cannot believe the "arguments" are 'no nonsense'. I think they are nonsense, and they are the same all over (that's why I spare me a listening).
They possibly only make sense within the narrow confines of their little dark tiny mind-box into which these people incarcerate themselves. This is how it goes: "I have everything neatly measured out in here in my little box. Newton physics is enough for me. Reductionist science has explained it all. I have figured it all out. There is no outside world. There is no wider reality. I won't open the door, I won't open the windows. There is nothing outside. Nothing! All those spirtual people talking about an outside world are nutters ..." (etc. pp.) :wink:
His beliefs and what he has been shown is no nonsense to him, just like this practice that we do here, that most people call nonsense is.
I have a open mind. It doesn't mean I have to believe this stuff. But, I give people their due. He wasn't necessarily thinking outside of the box, he had literally closed the box tightly! :wink: