Robert Monroe, Experiences, Institute

[BillionNamesofGod]

I haven't read Robert Monroe for a while, but it was one of the real
early books I read in the 80s.

My question is how come Robert Monroe seem to have real fantastic experiences and meet people, goto crazy astral planes, they seem to do real interesting mind-blowing stuff, and learn so many new things.

But, most experiences I've read aren't RB like, more like being in the real time zone, and pretty much no mind expanding.
Well, not as mind expanding as RB experiences.

Which raises the question, what leads to these crazy experiences?
Is there something going on here we don't know about?  Was RB approaching things a different way?  I've never read much about how to have the crazy travels.  Most of what I've read of recent times is how to project (Robert Bruce) and real-time or lower level astral stuff.  It always struck me RM seems to have a lot more crazy events in his AP experiences.

I just hope when I get to AP, I could have mind expanding revelationary type experiences RB had.

[Frank]

Bob Monroe was perhaps the first person to demonstrate that it is not only possible to shift your perception within consciousness but to shift your mental focus to a different area of consciousness. That is the essential difference that separates Monroe's later experiences from the rest. It was my avid following of Monroe that led me too to realise this.

Yours,
Frank

[manuel]

Bear in mind that Rob has been doing this for over 30 years until his exit from this plane, explaining why he had so many mind blowing experiences.

[BillionNamesofGod]

The more far-out experiences of Monroe occured with giving up the second body. That is, he left the second body in a third undefined form.
It was a prelude to his later phasing.

Please explain!!!! I've never heard of this!!

You mean that Astral Projection wasn't already difficult enough, you can do it again, while you are already in a Astral Projection, into another body?

wow!  tell me more!

[BillionNamesofGod]

I think it's in his second book "Far Journeys'. The thing of 'leaving' the second body mostly came up due to his frustration with staying in the RTZ, rather than being able to go elsewhere.

There is an important lesson there in that the second body imposes various limitatations on your experience. Quite simply, there is the issue of travel, which includes time and space considerations, in moving from one place to another. As soon as you find yourself in a second body, these constructs of belief start to become highly active, and there will be the expectations of flying (or whatever mode of transportation) as well as duration to go from one place to another.

Without a second body on the other hand, such primary beliefs have less sway on the movement of your consciousness, and you will generally be able to move around more easily once you know how switch attention from one place to another, or change your focus so to speak. Hence, the prelude to phasing.

Trying to leave the second body in an undefined more mental form is possible I'm sure, but it is likely also fairly unique to Monroe. It's all good to replicate the experiences of others, but never get stuck in them for too long. Monroe started out with RTZ experiences, and I do understand him quite well since I'm following the same pattern. So I have tried several times to replicate it without much success, until I realized more fully what he was doing.

What he did IMO is revert to same state as that occurs before exiting the physical body. In that very moment before exiting with a second body there is a moment in time where you are merely awareness free from physical constraints - and in some sense you could all this a "mental body". I don't like the term 'mental body' much, since it's heavily contaminated by second-hand conceptions and translations (and there is no 'body' there), but in this context I don't mind using it as long as it's clear I'm only talking about awareness basically free from any physical constraints and conceptions.

Not surprisingly, this pre-exit stage is generally the base consciousess from which phasing occurs. So you could say Monroe went backwards by not so much seperating again from the second body, but reverting back to a form where there would be more freedom of movement without phsyical based belief constraints.

In either case, this is the only conceptualization that has worked for me practically speaking. In that more formless state you can shift to any "location" desired, and if the environment suits it - you will have a second body there (which is "phasing"). Alternatively, you can follow a mental concept or emotion in your mind, which depending on its content can carry you to a realm that is formless and more a state of mind of mind rather than a perceptual environment (aka 'mental plane' beyond 'astral'). It's hard to put these environments into words, and my experience with them limited to say the least, but they are much richer than anything astral I have ever encountered.

This is very interesting I've never read heard of this before until now.
I've just started to read William Buhlmans' book Adventures Beyond the body, and he very quickly  (within the first 40 pages)  about projecting into astral body, after already projecting from his real body - and like you say, "double" projecting appears to given even more freedom, and allow real crazy stuff, you couldn't do with a "Normal" astral projection into the Real Time Zone...!

So amazing, still haven't projected and it appears that to experience Robert Monroe type experiences I have to "double" project !!!

Interesting I don't quite understand how William Buhlman or you do this double projection, it's not entirely clear, great if you could elaborate more!

[T.L.]

I believe sylvan muldoon brought up leaving the second body also, From my experiences the secnod exit is automatic. Of course it all depends on where you want to go, let say for instance I say I want to go to destination b and its not exactly a physical or near physical place mid shift it happens. If you dont pay attention you wouldnt notice, so perhaps lots leave their second body and just dont notice. Regards,
               T.L.

[Potatis]

I don't know why William Buhlman isn't mentioned more in these forums. I found his no-nonsense book "Adventures Beyond the body" to be very educational.

Potatis

[osprey1_5]

There is an important lesson there in that the second body imposes various limitatations on your experience. Quite simply, there is the issue of travel, which includes time and space considerations, in moving from one place to another. As soon as you find yourself in a second body, these constructs of belief start to become highly active, and there will be the expectations of flying (or whatever mode of transportation) as well as duration to go from one place to another.

Without a second body on the other hand, such primary beliefs have less sway on the movement of your consciousness, and you will generally be able to move around more easily once you know how switch attention from one place to another, or change your focus so to speak. Hence, the prelude to phasing.

That is so true for me. I'm only really a novice at this game compared to some of you but if I take my 'second body' with me I get into a right mess.

Only the other day I had the astral screen (hypnogogic images) going while in a mind awake/body asleep state and this nice sky with clouds came up and I decided to fly into it and explore. Well, I took my astral body with me and was waving my arms frantically trying to stay aloft, so ended up falling, lol.......now if I had just been a point of consciousness (like I have on a couple of occassions) I would have been just fine  

[Selski]

My tuppence worth

The second body – sometimes what a burden!  I find that I automatically create a second body unless I am aware enough to hold the "state" I find myself in (whatever that is, MABA, F12, F10 or whatever).  If I can hold the "slip" from full consciousness (C1) to this state, and maintain total control mentally, then I am able to experiment a whole lot more.  I am able to experience astral screens (whilst still feeling physical).  

However, in 95% of my experience, I can't help but find my second body floating out of my physical.  I tend to always have a second or third stab at it.  By this I mean that I will grope about in the RTZ for a while and something will force me back to the physical (a distraction or thought), however, I tend to find myself back at the "state" rather than at C1.  At times, I am rational enough to mentally envisage myself somewhere (phasing), but mostly, sadly, I am not so rational and I find myself grappling to get out of my physical body once more.  And there is something so addictive about that second body floating/ climbing out, I find that once I've started the process, I can't help but go with it.  I've never thought to myself once I'm out, I must get back in and phase...!

Ah well, look at it positively - still so much to learn/experience.  

Sarah

[BillionNamesofGod]

still not sure how you switch, do you just demand a 2nd body?

[upstream]

I've never heard about or saw any yellow star such big except the Sun. Seems very interesting. Could someone describe it? Anyway, you are obviously talking about the twin position dreaming system here. I failed to stress enough how important it is. Using this tool you can not only turn OBEs into LDs but terminate, restart and stabilize your projections, or split yourself into parts then dreaming parallel. Intention has a key role to fine tuning the effects. Just whirl the local search machine with keywords like twin, jinn, rotation for my relevant posts.

I don't know why these things work. Perhaps the realignment itself somehow mimics the preseparational stage and reset the system accordingly as Tome wrote. Reattachment of the emanation cone's tip have to occur (or more exactly, but sill metaphorically, uniting of the cones' tips). Also, the "polarity flip maneuver," which is getting back with the second body in the opposite direction (head at legs) has some weird effect worth a mention here. Does anyone have experiences with it? Great mystery today, tools for tomorrow! (this phrase is copyrighted right now)

[wisp]

upstream,

Also, the "polarity flip maneuver," which is getting back with the second body in the opposite direction (head at legs) has some weird effect worth a mention here. Does anyone have experiences with it?  

Yes, you helped me identify the polarity flip maneuver. Is there anything more to know on the subject? I now understand why the disorientation. It's a good way to become alert about being in the astral environment. Maybe I don't need this step anymore (now I bypass this step in my awareness)?

[upstream]

Is there anything more to know on the subject?

No no. This is my question, wisp. Good to see you again. You know, this rotation thingy is still very mysterious for me and somehow outside of my practical scope. I hoped with this thread that someone will come here and say the next step lol. I'm very interested in Monroe experiences because MajorTom said I'm from his school hehe...

First, it seems to me, that people tend to experience the flip more as spontaneous rotation in ASP (as was my initial presumption) which really suggests that the "body" involved in the maneuver has some structure or at least some axis of polarity.

Second, the trick has found its place in my original OBE method (which is a mixture of phasing and traditional OBE). Generally speaking, both lines (OBE & phasing) progress parallel in this method which is more like an alternation in the first stage. When the phasing line of attention collapses, that is, I lost the tunnel like optic flow or the continuous feeling of expansion, movement, etc. and am about to being to identify myself with the laying body again it's a good way to start the separation from this flipped position we are talking about. It stabilizes the preseparation stage.

So basically what you want is to let yourself get back straight into the flipped position when you feel yourself lose your outward pace at phasing. In this case rotation have to occur "above" the ASP stages, in the upper parts of the cone if you know what I mean - usually masked out from conscious awareness. It's not a real rotation though and this is where my front of investigation currently at. It seems that rotation takes place naturally in the RTZ/ASP but bodies above has no conventional structure (as my hypothesis has already proposed). Nevertheless, you will find yourself already rotated if you want to.

If you are familiar with my cone metaphor and love to paddle, you can visualize the entire process like the following. In the waking state the cone is attached to the body like the air-vortex to the sinkhole when you unscrew the bung from a tug filled with water. When the phasing part begins the vortex's tip goes upwards just like the air-vortex does in the tub when you bung it up again. When something occurs along the phasing stage that turns your attention back to the body the sinkhole frees up again and the vortex starts to descend.

Phasing and OBE practices are united when you feel this stage of retraction more than just a feeling of being woken up from a brief period of unconsciousness, like you were a jinn going back into his lamp. When you can hold into the flipped position along this prolonged retraction phase you will feel yourself back straight into the rotated position (maybe with some rotation at the end phase). It seems spinning (not rotation..are you remember?) is the best method to get control over the retraction. My goal is to repeat my early experiences, that is, holding into the expanded (but astrally interpreted state at the cone's upper part) and spinning the projector double in RTZ to trigger retraction at the same time.

And yes, the flipped stage is clearly preferred for OBE separation over F10 like states directly initiated from waking. If you familiar with the focus numbers: progression along stages of C1 > F10 > F12-OBE is much more harder than C1 > F10 > F21 > F12-OBE. Actually the first protocol is not really possible, as brief unconsciousness that usually happens at one point apparently masks a full cycle of partial decondensation / recondensation by the coinciding black-outs.

Ok, that's enough for now. Does it makes sense or am I just taking with myself again? Anyway, what I really want to say here is that the rotated phantom stabilizes the pre-OB state but "from above." Period. To fully detach yourself pull up the focal point from your abdomen (F10) or chest (F12) to above your head, spin for a while then roll out. Then, if you want to project into the astral, stabilize a dream state, lay down or spin back into the exact position of your body anywhere you want (twin system) but holding the proper intention in your mind. Then feel yourself moving upward and outward through the top of your head yet remaining motionless at the same time by feeling your laying body beneath. That's all.

[wisp]

upstream,
Thanks for the information. I haven't been as observant as you are. I find myself lucky that I was able to catch my second body in the maneuver of the polarity shift. Maybe others will come forward once their made aware of it happening to them.

In the mean time, if I discover anything new about it I'll share it with you. When I'm in my second body I have a tendency to be so curious about where my physical body is, I return to my body. I have found that sometimes my second body is parallel to my physical body. My second body is simply turned in the opposite direction, not always a head to toe position.

I haven't experienced anything with a cone or the movements you describe. Anything I experience is instant. I've always considered it mental travel. This may be the thing you describe as a black-out.

I will try to stay in the second body awareness next chance I get.

[Frank]

A "body" is a construct that is created by each individual. We are a point of consciousness but we have developed the idea of generating a body as a vehicle that creates what we might call a "presence" within whatever area of consciousness we happen to be perceiving.

Monroe may well have described entering a second body or whatever. I'm not sure how much of this he actually realised, but the action of "switching bodies" he observed would have been a symptom of the underlying switch in area of consciousness. Problem is, people come along years later and gauge that they have to somehow "switch their bodies" in order to have Monroe-like experiences. When, as I say, the observed switch in body was a symptom of the underlying switch in area of consciousness.

What people typically call "astral projection" is a belief construct that typically becomes manifest within Focus 2 of consciousness. Or in the case of an RTZ projection, an experience that becomes manifest within Focus 1 of consciousness.

The reason why Monroe did not have what could be called typical "astral projection" experiences is obvious from the model of consciousness he presented from his later research. Anyone following the linear model, as he specifically expresses it, is set to "bypass" Focus 2 of consciousness. The area where most people do their "astral projecting" in other words; as the model is geared to take a person from Focus 1 of consciousness and directly transition them to Focus 3.

So it comes as no surprise that Focus 3 of consciousness is where Monroe had many of his experiences. Plus, he had a number of other experiences that were, in my judgement, symptomatic of an involvement within Focus 4 of consciousness, but I'll leave that for another day. And I think also that Monroe didn't actually realise he was making that transition. Just as I think he also didn't realise his model of consciousness more or less eliminated any experience of Focus 2.

As I put forward in my earlier post to this thread, it is perfectly possible to change your perception in consciousness and not actually shift your area of consciousness. This is what an RTZ projection entails, for example. The person is not actually shifting their area of consciousness, merely changing their perception within Focus 1.

Yours,
Frank

[Gandalf]

but in order to 'shift our perception' within the focus 1 enviroment.. ie rtz projections, is it not nececerry to generate some kind of secondary energy interface or 'body'? as we are no longer focused on our physical body, which normally provides us with all our sensory input needed to operate within the physical/rtz.. do we not need some kind of temporary additional in order to navigate around the physical world.. hense a temporary secondary vehicle/interface.. normally called the astral body? although i think it is only generated for the duration of the experience.

if this interface is not needed and we can just perceive the rtz and physical as pure conscousness, then what is the point of a physical body and all the work that has went into it to provide us with sensory input?

Doug

[Frank]

Doug:

If you are asking whether it is strictly necessary, the answer is no it isn't necessary. But it is a common phenomenon for a variety of reasons. But the "generation" of a body is a symptomatic reaction to the shift in perception. Not the other way around as many people believe.

A physical body is not needed to perceive the physical world. But we are here to have the experience of being physical hence we choose a suitable bodily vehicle. In a sense you could say within the physical world, in order to experience actually being physical then some kind of physical bodily vehicle is a necessity.

But this perceived necessity has a kind of knock-on effect that causes people to think that because it could be classed as a necessity in one circumstance, then it is a necessity per se. Which of course it isn't. I'm not saying that you, personally, are thinking that. But people do, in the main.

The fact is that none of what we purport, for example, Focus levels and focusing away from the physical body, and such like: none of this is strictly necessary and when it gets too involved then it all simply gets in the way. For example, I have it on good authority that the RTZ is, in fact, a part of the physical. It's just that we perceive the physical with senses that give us a particular view. But it is a very restricted view.

It should therefore be possible to widen one's awareness to simply take account of the physical as a wider dimension. Which of course would incorporate the area known as the RTZ. No special techniques or methods should be necessary. This I have been attempting on and off for a number of months.

Four times now I have managed to simply project my awareness into the RTZ. No focusing away from the physical, no techniques or methods. Simply projecting my awareness into the RTZ from being fully awake and aware in the physical. No focus 10, 12, 21, no rope-method, no blah, blah, blah method, nothing. Simply lay back and excite the yellow and purple energy centres and "roll out" into the RTZ.

I find this an extremely tricky thing to do. Main reason being I find it nearly impossible to step out of the notion that I should incorporate some kind of method or process!

Problem is, how do you explain that to a beginner? You can't say to a person that in your attempts you just sit in a chair and do it. Because we have closely held belief constructs that we should necessarily incorporate some kind of method or process. So methods and processes have naturally come about, which is all very well as they can go a long way to helping people achieve their non-physical goals.

Problem is, however, a lot of these methods and techniques have taken on a kind of "life of their own". Rather than just being some kind of disposable aid, something a person throws away once they have got the hang of doing whatever it is the person was attempting, the "method" together with the observations that come about during the enactment of it, becomes sacrosanct.  

Yours,
Frank

[upstream]

Wisp, I'm sure you know, these things are not so clear and cut as I've presented. Catching those normally unconscious or masked intermediate states are rare for me. Although the spontaneous polarity flip indeed presupposes some common mechanisms (perhaps even a structured or polarized RTZ field), the main thing is still that we need at least a rotated position to stabilize the pre-OB state because the position of the limbs are preserved, thus the risk of waking up is increased. Apparently, in some cases rotation happens spontaneously. This is why we noticed it as a rule. Also, due to the extremely malleable geometry of the dream room rotation seems to be a better solution for gaining stability than feeling ourselves in another point of the room, which, by the way, happens much more often in my case.

But these shifts may likely have another reason I can't disregard: I often change the place where I sleep. I've discovered a pattern here. The more frequently I change the position of my mattress, the more spontaneous OBE I have. Actually, this is a stand alone method that needs no mental efforts from my part. It seems we have a multistaged identification mechanisms that needs a considerable amount of time when we wake up (going back to C1 inside the cone) to re-orientate ourselves in space. Ancient people did believe that it is not wise to move the bodies of those who are asleep. It would be interesting to use a machine to rotate and shift the bed while we sleep and see what happen.

In the mean time, if I discover anything new about it I'll share it with you.

Yes please do that. I need more information. Also, anyone who sleep constantly at the same place yet have the experience of waking up in other parts of the dream room (which should be similar enough to make this distinction) please write me. Counter experiences are equally important.

[wisp]

upstream,
Yes, I identify with the different bed positions. I physically have had the present bed I most frequently sleep on, in every possible place in the same room. Also, I've noticed that my memory of these physical (C1?) places do not match with the experiences when/where I have non-physical (C2?) positions/experiences of the same bed.

I record alot of things. I must make a point to note furniture arrangement variations, along with my physical and second body positions.

In my last polarity maneuver, I was able to hold the position a little longer. Instead of popping back into my body, I more or less faded back into it. That was a little different for me. I wasn't trying to get back in, my curiosity got the better of me again.
upstream writes:

I need more information. Also, anyone who sleep constantly at the same place yet have the experience of waking up in other parts of the dream room (which should be similar enough to make this distinction) please write me. Counter experiences are equally important.

Hope more will offer their info. In the meantime, I experience this sort of thing alot. I'm going to have to get better at recording the experiences. I have a tendency to leave these details out of my notes.

Frank,
There was a different kind of re-entry I experienced not too long ago. It wasn't typical (for me). I found myself coming up from the ground (lying on or inside the dirt), inbetween two cars (or vehicles) in an outside environment (parking lot).As I was getting up (C2?), I experienced an earthquate vibration in my physical body. While watching, I was also experiencing the ground, breaking. I was frightened and then woke up in bed. This was my first and only time with vibrations.

Frank, could you clarify what parts of this last experience mentioned, is C1 and C2?

I think your definitions are helping me alot.

Oh, and I'm right in the middle of reading "Ultimate Journey" by Robert Monroe. It's interesting. I haven't read his other books yet.

[wisp]

upstream,
A little update on the polarity maneuver. My daughter was home for a visit. While here, one night while going to bed I was telling her about the polarity maneuver. I was surprised when she said she experiences this too.Instead of experiencing the disorientation, she said she can "feel" where things are (like where the wall and such are). She also claims this bed (or room) is the only place she experiences this. For me, I have this occur anywhere.

I'm wondering too. Isn't this the time when one can have a 360 degree vision of view?

[upstream]

Thanks wisp!

It's definitely sounds like uninterpreted real time sight. Was she coming out from sleep when it happened?

Big kisses to your daughter,
>>> upstream

[wisp]

Thanks upstream, my daughter is a sweetheart!  

We were talking about when going to sleep time (before sleep). She is always amazed at the mystical things in her life. Like for instance, this same night, she was taken back by all the static electicity in her pillow. It lit up in her darkened room. She was afraid to sleep on it. I took it instead.    She said, "You always hear about these weird things happening, you don't think their gonna happen to you!"

PS...I almost forgot to mention....I experienced a new direction out...sideways. It was like slipping sideways. There seems to be a message about directions for me. The word oblique comes to mind.

[knightlight]

bravo gentlemen, you've managed to blow my mind.  I am not new par se to projection, but have just recently started attempting conscious projections and actually had any results.  I am glad I have found this web site full of experienced travelers.  Most forums I go to involve newbies who cant project and are having problems or people who claim to have all the answers.  

I am very interested in the thought of going back and interfacing with the 3rd body.  I gather this is almost a time warp effect; project into the second body, return to the moment and feelings of the instant of transfer from physical to astral and break off from this, becoming the "3rd" point of consciousness and be free from the bounds of a body.  I have experienced this but only accidentally.  Thank you for confirming that it is possible to control this state.

I will continue to dig about in this great forum of ideas, thank you for the information.      

[manfred]

Monroe was a pretty advanced OBE-er. He knew how to open vortexes and he had strong intentions to find things that satisfied his curiousities. As you have read he had many.

Opening a vortex isn't the easiest of things and opening a vortex to go to a place where you want to go is even harder.

I personally love his works and I think if you know how to go to the places he went you too would have mindblowing experiences. That said the realms are infinitely huge so there are many more places where you can explore and have mind blowing experiences.

Funny that I stumbled on this topic, I just read some of his books last week. Some theories are old but most of them are just fun to read.

-manfred

[redcatherine]

Which raises the question, what leads to these (RM)crazy experiences?... (and)mind expanding revelationary type experiences RB had.

You nearly answered that intuitively yourself practice experience motivation intention and awareness in the energy body . Both of these authors approach travel in an analytical way and record the process to be replicated by other seekers . What they both lament though is ability to see hear know and interpret in their travels . Like most men they projected in a largely electrical energy body and were able to sense with body awareness . I suggest following both but learn to see and hear too so that everywhere you travel you can see and nothing is black . This can be done with learning to balance the female magnetic with the male electric energy fluids. I advocate an eclectic approach

meditation , hermetic understanding , will and energy body development

Monroe ..knew how to open vortexes and had strong intentions to ...satisfied his curiosities. Opening a vortex isn't the easiest of things and opening a vortex to go to a place where you want to go is even harder.

all seekers can learn to open the vortex and to project with intent to a destination in RTZ or into a realm  . The easiest vortex is made with the 2 energy hands and the third eye forming a triangle .

A prerequisiste is basic  energy body development
protect and open
lay in da vinci pose in meditative stance
make dominant hand hot volcanic orange bright and light
make non dominant hand  freezing ice cold dark and heavy
open the third eye to platinum blue moon magnetic
.will it ..feel it ...see it clairvoyantly to be so

and energy will swirl in front of you in a cone shape
to enter project consciousness into it
the energy body follows if it is needed
do not be concerned for it
it will manifest where called or willed
and only makes you tethered when brought
like unnecessary baggage on a mountain trail hike

when you have mastered the 3 vortex
try 4 add the sun in solar plexus and electric

then 7 all four limbs with hands and soles carefully controlled
all 4 as above
cyan green air on non dominant leg
and salmon pink orange on dominant leg
and silver akasha in anu flame around heart

interested in.. interfacing with the 3rd body... a time warp effect; project into the second body, return to the moment and feelings of the instant of transfer from physical to astral and break off from this, becoming the "3rd" point of consciousness and be free from the bounds of a body.

why ? why not leave body altogether when you project ?
the seeker can choose and control
you can  project with no body
or the lightest most advanced subtle layer of energy body
or you can allow the higher self to project and act beside or with you