Why are you so shure that AP is not just a product of your

[kajaLove]

hiya

I know it's imposible to prove it either way(I imagine one can't prove that santa ain't really visiting us each year),but if you were to give a list of why you might think astral travel is real and also why(even if you think AP is real) it may be just a product of your own imagination,what would those arguments be?

I realise  that many in here believe AP is real,but are there things about AP that make you a little more sceptical about it?

cheers

[MisterJingo]

In my opinion, I think a person should NOT believe the validity of AP until they achieve it themselves. And even then they should not hold it as fact until they have repeatedly experienced situations which prove it has a validity over that of sheer fantasy produced by a 'meat' brain. Or to put it as Robert Monroe would, turning a belief into a known through repeated  (left brain) experience.
Don't misunderstand me, a person could and should believe AP is possible, but just not hold it as fact until personal proof shows them it is. Taking beliefs as knowns can lead to distorted and untrue belief systems which might be detrimental to AP and progress later on down the line.

[Frank]

Oh, not this again...

So please, tell me, what could ANY of your reality possibly be a product of? (If not your imagination.) We create all our reality, and if you can't imagine it in the first place you can't create it! So yes, ultimately, everything is a product of our imagination.

Can someone put a big sign up somewhere where we can all see this, lol.

Yours,
Frank

[kajaLove]

Now don't get offended frank but that is philosophical poop.
If you so strongly believe that the image of a person your mind creates is as real as your neighbour then experiment a little ... slap your neighbour a couple of times and then tell me how real it felt
You're talking as if everything around you is only the product of your imagination.I guess you don't buy food then you imagine it appear in your mouth.
And the difference between astral being a product of your imagination and being something real could mean the difference
between whether when your body dies your mind(spirit,soul or whatever) will still be able to create its own subjective reality or whether you will be no more but a few bones and that is why this question is important to me
As for my question,Im not only asking whether it fealt real or not but more of what proofs people on this forum got to support either
case(Did they astral with friends and actually meet etc...)
Perhaps  other threads about this subject wouldn't get buried in this kind of pseudo-intellectual discussion if you could hold yourself back and actually give straight answers best you can.I suspect your only goal when responding to this kind of threads is to confuse posters and prove them wrong while not actually telling them anything.
The way you go about things I'm amazed you actually get  anything done in your life(real life..ya know..oh wait)

[Frank]

"In your opinion" thanks for the honesty. :)

Yours,
Frank

[jason]

kajalove-It's not as simplistic as you make it sound.Of course our reality is REAL-it's the creation,and sustaining of reality that we are talking about.

We quite literally create our own reality here and now-the question "is it all real?" is absolutely meaningless.Of course it will be real if you grump slap your neighbor .We create our reality to be that way.Of course it it solid-this is a given.

Thoughts have energy.They are not just the electrical firing of neurons.Once you have some experience in AP/OBE,and then start to have your reality widen and expand (including the physical) you see how true this is.Once you get to a certain state of accomplishment in AP/OBE,events of strong syncronicity start to happen.I'm not talking about simple examples of syncronicity,but major "Holy friggin crap! " types of syncronicity.You also begin to see levels of  meaning in physical life,in everyday situations,that remind us of the depths of interconnections that life offers.It is a tye of "strengthening our connection to the unknown".

A simple example,of how we create our reality,on a minor scale,is the negative projections we toss around onto each other.We label eachother everyday is through childish gossip about others that aren't around to defend themselves.Iin your reality, your
belief system that person becomes neatly labeled and filed away.That becomes true for YOU,but not neccesarily for the other person

An example of how we create own reality on a major level would include such things as how our brain interprets what is basically moving,vibrating,electrical energy on a quantum scale,and interprets,and therefore percieves a quanta of elecrical energy to be a "tree",a "table",a "cloud",etc,etc,etc,ad infinatum. The infinite potential living energy becomes neatly filed away,once again.

it's fine to be sceptical-that is actually how we should be-just as long as the definition of "sceptical" isn't a form of circular reasoning,created by the ego, out of fear of it's own destruction.

[Novice]

Kajalove -
I think first of all you should calm down a bit.

Second, have you read many of Franks posts here? I am not here defending Frank, as I don't think he needs defending. But if you have read his posts, I don't think you understood what was written by him and others related to this topic.

I don't post very often, but I read quite a bit. I am no where near as proficient at AP as Frank and others are, but from what I have experienced personally, everything he has written and posted here is consistent with my own experiences. And thus I personnaly know that what he has written is not "philosophical poop". Its reality. But you need to remember that reality is what you perceive it be.

Two people can experience the same event but perceive it in different ways and thus the reality of what happened is different. Reality is subjective. We create our own reality in response to or regardless of the events happening around us. Our thoughts and actions today are what create our future.

Your argument reminds me of a story I read years ago. And I apologize now because I know I won't be able to do the story jsutice. But I will summarize as best I can. During WWII there was a jewish man in a concentration camp who survived. But he did more than survive. He was a shining star to all of the other jews in the camp. This is because every day he would smile and be happy. He would thank God for his life. He was always kind and helpful in anyway possible to everyone else in the camp. He was always encouraging them not to give up. ANd because of the positive effect he had on the others, he was a continual focus for the Nazis. They kept searching for ways to 'break him'. AFter the war, they interviewed him and asked him how he could be so positive and thankful after living through what he did. He replied (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here) that the Nazi's could control his physical life, but they could not control his mind. He refused to let them make him miserable. He wasn't just pretending to be happy, he was truly happy. Because he knew that the only person that could make him miserable and want to die was himself. He never gave the Nazis that power over him. He controlled his own reality.

Again, those weren't his exact words, but it was the concept that I understood him to say. And I think its a good example of how physical reality isn't what everyone sees, its what each individual decides to make of it.

What Frank and others discuss regarding the imagination being reality is true as well, but I was only try to give you a 'physical example' since that seemed to be your key response. Regardless of who you are, one thing is constant: a great imagination combined with a strong will can accomplish amazing things in both the physical and the astral plane.

[Mustardseed]

A very wise man and good post thanks for sharing that story

Regards Mustardseed

PS In your reality Frank is possibly not a very wise or hospitable person, but consider the following. He and many others have answered literally hundreds of folks like yourself in the kind manner it was done above, if he had a bad day (Hope all is well Frank? ) give him the benefit of the doubt. To us he is an all right guy and patient beyond the call of duty

[kajaLove]

I wwant to makes things clear...I know that reality is subjective and realise this is what the guy was saying, but I hate it when the main question gets avoided by such answers.What you create in your thoughts may indeed be as real as other things(to you), but whether you accept this or not there ARE things existing independent of how your mind interprets them(yeah i know some would argue if this is indeed the case but pff) while each individual perceives those things differently(based on his/hers believe system,biology etc)
But point is some things simply are.All things frank was so kind to explain most of people already know or have thought about it once in a while,even if perhaps they can't put it into words in such a "poetic" manner(well I can't).
So no matter how much someone tries to convince me that there's no difference between what my mind cretaes from scratch and the way  my mind interprets data received from outside, there's still one important difference between the two,and let me repeat it-If astral is as real as this universe is(as in it exists outside subject's mind) ,meaning people actually are able to meet there and visit same places even if they never heard of them prior to visiting them,it would suggest  that perhaps there is afterlife after death.If on the other hand all is created in your mind without any input from outside world(please no lecture how all experiences are colored by your mind...we know that already),no matter how convincing your mind is at picturing it  something as real existing outside your mind(yes,thoughts created to interpret the outside world are from same matter than thoughts that are only the product of your own imagination and past experiences) it will still all end when your biological body dies.

All I want to know is whether people (real people from planet earth) can meet there just as they are able to meet each other daily in a local pubs?

Cheers frank and don't get your knickers in a twist...I meant no bad but you were an "*******" first

[Frank]

Err, did I come across as having a bad day?

I'm really sorry about that! But I was being light-hearted that's why I put "lol" after the post. But it's obvious that didn't come across as I intended it.

Yours,
Frank

[Nostic]

hiya

I know it's impossible to prove it either way(I imagine one can't prove that Santa ain't really visiting us each year),but if you were to give a list of why you might think astral travel is real and also why(even if you think AP is real) it may be just a product of your own imagination,what would those arguments be?

I realize  that many in here believe AP is real,but are there things about AP that make you a little more skeptical about it?

cheers

One thing I can think of... pain. I've had a number of experiences now where I've spontaneously exited through my 3rd eye. When this happens, there is a definite physical pain that I feel. It's not overwhelming, but it's definitely uncomfortable. I've never felt physical pain from a dream, or just by imagining it. Now I know that this is certainly not proof, but I'd say it's definitely eveidence... personal evidence anyway.

If there is anything that makes me skeptical about it... 1) I still cannot project at will and 2) I always seem to project when I'm either falling asleep or when I'm just waking-up... I'm never as conscious as I'd like to be.
Though I assume that this is just because I need greater experience.

[Novice]

I must have misunderstood your initial question. I thought you were asking for proof of the astral being real instead of 'just imagination'. But in this last post you are asking if people can meet in the astral. The answer is yes. I'm fairly certain there are posts on that somewhere on this site as well.

But I don't think that question is what you are trying to get at. I think you meant to ask if people meet in the astral, is there any proof that the meeting 'really' took place. I have done it and have proof of it. But its personal proof and probably wouldn't mean much to you. I personnally don't take other people's proof as my own. I prefer my own proof from my own experience, but that's just my opinion.

I would suggest if you are serious, then work on trying it yourself and evaluate the results for yourself. I would always recommend that you read and learn as much as you can, but never take someone else's word at face value about anything. You can question a lot of things, but unless you begin to experiment with these things, I don't think the answers you receive will ever satisfy you.  

Just my thoughts on this. Hope you aren't offended by them.

[Selski]

Why are you so sure that AP is not just a product of your imagination...


Simply put, because I've never felt so alive.


Sarah

[Telos]

Simply put, because I've never felt so alive

Yes!

[Novice]

Excellent response Sarah.

I hadn't thought of such a simple answer.  

[Rakon]

kajaLove, perhaps you've heard of a test projectors make to check if their projections are real. You take a card from a deck, you don't look at it, and you put it somewhere where you won't be able to see it (on top of a wardrobe would do). When you have a projection, you take a look at the card and when you return you check if it's the same card.
It worked for me. I tried once, and succeeded. I used a book instead of a deck, but it doesn't really matter.
Sometimes the card isn't the same. That is possible because of the reality fluctuations in the real time zone, because of one's expectations which might have changed the card, or because someone really wasn't having a projection but a lucid dream (or something else).
This test got me convinced.

[Ivanda]

I had my doubts. Yesterday they were removed as I had a brief but complete OBE experience. When u have it, u just know!! When I am better at this, I will try to do a couple of experiments--not that I need them anyway    

[BOATS]

I hate to put my simple input into such good responses but for me the first Astral Projection was something I had not expected the way it occured.  I simply found myself in my bedroom of my home while sleeping at a location twenty miles from home.  No exit sensations, nothing like I had been reading would happen.  I was simply there in the room looking around until I decided to return to my body after saying to myself "Now I know this is real"Sometime after this happened I read that this happens and I feel if it was simply my mind creating this event internally I would have projected with vibrations, seen my so called cord and my body lying in bed as this was what I was hoping for.

[stone]

....But in this last post you are asking if people can meet in the astral. The answer is yes. I'm fairly certain there are posts on that somewhere on this site as well....

Indeed.  

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17261


cheers,

Stone

[BOATS]

I love that post.  Really seems to give validation to Astral Projection.

[FreeChile]

The problems with validation, even in a story such as Stone's, is that in the Astral, it becomes very difficult to distinguish what is a physical experience and what is an Astral experience.  The validation itself may have just occurred in a dream of been awake.  Such dreams are very possible.  

It would be better to make efforts to validate using a more scientific method where the subject does not even know that he is being tested--like a double-blind test.  Also, the tester does not even know what he is testing.  This is necessary because we all trick ourselves to maintain our identity (our own set of beliefs) and to satisfy our needs.

[Telos]

The problems with validation, even in a story such as Stone's, is that in the Astral, it becomes very difficult to distinguish what is a physical experience and what is an Astral experience.  The validation itself may have just occurred in a dream of been awake.  Such dreams are very possible.  

It would be better to make efforts to validate using a more scientific method where the subject does not even know that he is being tested--like a double-blind test.  Also, the tester does not even know what he is testing.  This is necessary because we all trick ourselves to maintain our identity (our own set of beliefs) and to satisfy our needs.

FreeChile, it is also possible to do a double-blind study in a dream, only to awaken and find out that no such study was given.

But that point is moot, because with an experience like Stone's, the problems you mention evaporate with continuity. The more Stone and his partner continue on with the memory of this experience, the more likely it is that the experiencer you and I are familiar with (Stone) is not dreaming.

Continuity is something that the astral apparently lacks in large amounts. If you acknolwedge that there are parallel universes within the astral that contain continuities like that of our physical world, then you do not need to validate the existence of the astral in first place - since you've already accepted it.

[stone]

Continuity is something that the astral apparently lacks in large amounts. If you acknowledge that there are parallel universes within the astral that contain continuities like that of our physical world, then you do not need to validate the existence of the astral in first place - since you've already accepted it.

...and continuity is such a human construct.  A way of categorizing the waking logic of time.  When you break down the barriers between Astral and Physical, you find that time is just another way of further categorizing events.

The Astral is a place where thought takes precedence, and if you think that time matters when you're there, then it does.  The same applies to continuity.  Only a lot less so...

It can be a real twister to wrap your mind around it all.  

I'd also like to address the subject of the thread.   How can I be sure that AP is not just a product of my imagination.  

The more time spent APing, the more utterly apparent it becomes, that there are unique differences in awareness in reality, in dreams, and in Astral Projection.

I've only been walking the astral path for under year now.  And in the first 30 years of my life, I had experienced alot of frames of mind, and states of being...   Absolutely nothing is similar to the "frame of mind" or awareness one achieves when out of the body.

You instinctively KNOW the difference between a dream and your waking life.  Even a lucid dream holds a different intangible quality.  This same instinct kicks in when you AP.

And since matters of the mind and soul enjoy evading scientific measurement... there will never truly be a way of explaining it categorically to someone.

You have to experience it to know what it is...

And any fragment of doubt I had about it all was abolished... the moment I traveled into my lovers dream.  I hadn't spoken to her in three months, but the next day came the collect call from south america, asking me about my presence in her dream.

I'm a full-time subscriber to Astral Projection now.


cheers,

Stone

[Frank]

"The more time spent APing, the more utterly apparent it becomes, that there are unique differences in awareness in reality, in dreams, and in Astral Projection."

Yes, I'd like to second that.

The crux of it is, this question comes up now and again from people who have little or no experience. Perhaps just a few lucid dreams or whatever. They get the idea in their heads that what we are all on about are just lucid dreams that we have "mistaken" for out of body experiences. To an experienced practitioner, however, the differences between all the various states become as clear as night and day.

The way I think of it, is the state becomes as clear and as obvious as the normal awake state. Like, we don't need anyone to provide us with "proof" that we are awake and alert within the physical. It's just obvious. I mean, if someone came along and asked a typical crowd of people, "How do you know you are awake and alert within the physical?" Everyone would just laugh, because it's obvious. So in the same vein, when someone asks me, "How do I know I'm not just dreaming?" I just laugh, because it's so obvious.

Yours,
Frank