The Astral Pulse

its physically impossible to have proof of god unless he decided to pop into the sky or something, especially in scientific terms. but then again, scientifically, he could pop into the sky and there would still be no proof.

i'm atheist, and i've had tons of debates with christians. you can argue for or against god, but it really just comes down to faith. whether or not you have a faith in god.

i used to be a satanist. what drove me away was their principles and guidelines, etc.. for lack of better language (pardon me), the leading members just seem like dickheaded assholes. their 'texts' just had an air of 'we're better than everybody else, so screw them!', and that's actually more accurate than you might think. for example, they tell you to have respect for people when you're on their property, but when they come onto your property and offend you, you must be cruel and merciless to them to serve as a lesson to them. you can look that up, to: www.churchofsatan.com

but of course, you can be satanist and have different views. why? just to get the followers that reject it's beliefs. bunch of corrupted cheap-o's are leading that religion, man.

i'm christian, but i'm open minded and i've looked at the "satanic bible" and the first page wasn't too bad - i actually agree with some of those things.

but when i turned to the second page i put it down because i don't like being lied to (it says that satan has never attacked the church even though the church has been at satan's throat for the past two thousand years; that satan isn't evil, he's just depicted badly by the church; etc)

it was just too stupid for words.

as for needing proof of God: wouldn't you then need proof that satan exists in order to believe in him? otherwise it would be highly hypocritical of you to believe in one spiritual being just because you want to, but not another just because you don't want to. [|)]

~kakkarot

I personally think the church of satan is moronic.  I havent met one person who has said they're a part of it who wasn't in it to be "special" or for the shock of it.

Its very cool though in a marilyn manson shock value way.  Theres nothing more to it than that.

kakkarot -

satanists are atheists. they believe that satan is more of a buddha character - a teacher or leader, but not a god. they believe there is no god. i'm not sure what exactly they were trying to prove on the page you were reading, but check out their site..

quote:

---

In Satanism, Satan is...a representation of certain qualities that the Satanist embodies...

---

but yes.. it is moronic. those people are in it for the image associated with the christian satan more than for their spiritual quests.

i always thought it was impossible to worship something that you don't know about.  everyone that believes in god may have a different opinion on what god is.  how would you know if you were talking about the same thing?  

when someone asks me if i believe in god, i ask them to tell me what god is and i will tell them if i believe or not.  i have never found someone that could tell me.  a lot of people that say they believe, don't actually know what they are believing in.

yeah.. america sucks about that. the first colony on the east coast (besides florida) was founded by the puritans x.x. they didn't even fit in in ancient times, and they were basically kicked out of britain. freedom from religious persecution.. why couldn't they have been sent to mexico? [:(]

ever since those first colonies, from the constitution to the civil war and on, the US has always been both mostly christian but unspiritual. most people have never considered other religions. i wouldnt be surprised if they didn't even know of any other religions, besides maybe 'devil worship'. maybe they'll consider a different branch of christianity, but thats about it. and like fred said, a lot of people don't even know what they're believing it. but they sure do try to defend christianity as best they can, even when they don't know jack about it. i've noticed that most people that try to bash me for being atheist make up a lot of stuff as they go along, to try to make me feel bad i guess. threaten me with hell. it'd be pretty embarrassing for other christians, i'm sure.

I am neither christain of satanist.  I believe in speeding the evolution of the human race.  Whether by genetic engenering or by stopping the spread of religion.  I believe that religion gets in the way of evolution and development and therefore belong to no religion.  But some satanic principles that get my attention such as the sinister dialect.  I belief that christianity is the cause of the dark age.  Before the dark age were the roman's.  The romans had more technology at a earlier time than the christain's in the dark age then the spread of catholacism came to the roman empire and the empire fell.  If it had not we would probably be in hyperspace by now.  Notice that every major empire prior to the fall of the romans was based on paganistic views?  This is because the put more time into technology than in religion.  However, the majority of American society is christain and we are the biggest powerhouse economy in the world. But this is not because of the spread of christianity it is because the fall of it.  There are more atheists now than ever and there are less christains.

youre right yoshi..

it's not the fact that people believe in a single, all-powerful god that screwed stuff up, it was the church. the catholic church criticized and surpressed many brilliant people that we look back on now with appreciation. had galileo not waited til his death to publish his findings, the catholic church would have executed him before the high point of his discoveries. who knows what knowledge they've deprived us of?

the egyptians, romans, greeks, etc., had a vast knowledge of architecture and water systems, whether you acknowledge alien help or not. they created vast structures that we still look at with amazement (i'm not talking about the great pyramids, i believe the egyptians didn't make those, and there is irrefutable evidence of such should i want to type it up and people to accept it). a temple to jupiter built by the romans was discovered near jerusalem in the 1800s. this temple was massive, possibly more massive than the pyramids. there were solid blocks of rock that weighed 1200 tons that had been raised into the air and rested on huge columns. there is no explaination for how this is done. modern cranes can't even lift that much weight to a height that high, and what's more, this was on a mountainside!

technology like this should have been passed down through the ages, but it wasn't. so we have degressed in technology in the past, during the dark ages. imo, the dark ages were when ancient technology fell and we began to rediscover things for ourselves and start recording everything over. and the catholics were supressing these new ideas, thinking for ourselves.

the church doesn't have as much power anymore, and i'm thankful. but the skeptic people that won't believe in the metaphysical, obe's and lucid dreams, etc., are now the ones holding us back from advancing. but people seem to be giving into to more and more radical ideas.. we may have dbz to thank for some of that in the younger generations, people wanting to blow stuff up with balls of energy [:)]

eh.. since i lost myself ill shut up.

Warlockky you actually pointed out one of the main reasons I think the church of satan is lame.  Its a purely reactionary church.  It is based on the christian church itself.  Either for the reason four leaf clover mentioned where its a fascination with the christian devil.  Or what you implied.  You're so fed up with christianity etc etc... so thats an option.

I dont really mean to insult your view on it but it doesn't make any sense to me.  Its like you've thought out the first part ...the evils of the church there's no proof of god.  Soooo... you're gonna join the church of satan?  

People will say there's more to it than that etc etc.. Yes in the writing its supposedly about more.  But the reasons most go to it in the first place and the very reason its there is because of the christian church.  Its just too much of a "we'll show them" type of church for me.

satanism.............are you for real?

whats wrong with you guys?

i am teetering on the edge of belief in god myself, but satanism as a replacement?

i looked at the satanic bible and it just looked like one big selfish fest to me. do what pleases you, do what you want, who is anyone else to tell you what to do to please yourself.

what kind of mindf*** crap is that?

i have looked into many things to search for god myself. i have read histories, Archeological evidence, scientific proof, etc.  these are the kind of things one needs to do when they are feeling left out of the big picture. you dont just stand there and say these things sound like crap, i think ill try something else like satanism.

be intelligent, be smart about your answers. if you dont want to believe in god, thats fine and also your choice, but at least research the subject. you guys are the ones putting down christians for not being able to explain who or what god is. i myself also think they need to study up on their own convictions so they can give plausible answers to the atheists when they come along. too many people go to church and just listen to the man up front tell them all about it, and then they make those things their beliefs. what if that guy up front has it all wrong? they are all skrewed thats what.


i apologize for sounding like a better than you asswipe. but you guys should do some research on some of these things. it would be a real eye opener. it might interest you all to know that a lot of scientific research is starting to lead right back to the probability of a "controlling intelligent force" behind the workings of things.

again i apologize, but satanism?

i don't mean to belittle your posts, strwrs, but that was funny [:D].

however, the search for truth cannot overlook any possibility, otherwise you may miss the one idea, the one answer, that could help you on to your next spiritual step.

all things should be considered, even if your first reaction is that it is evil. after all, what if one's preconcieved notions of something is totally wrong?

i do agree that stopping at any one place and just up and declaring it to be the truth while knowing deep down that it isn't is doing yourself a great disservice.

but in and of itself, the first page of satanism isn't that bad for a religious ideology. after all, if there really is no god, then who is there to look out for except yourself? if there is no final judgement that bestows blessings upon you for doing good and punishment upon you for doing evil, then why do good (well, there really is good reason to do good things, but that's another story and goes outside the scope of satanism: the "helping others helps yourself" idea.)?

~kakkarot: stirring up trouble for both sides [|)]

nietschze was one of the greatest philosphers that ever lived and if i remember correctly, would say that there are no morals, no god, blah blah and that you should do what you what pleases you at whatever cost.  

maybe nietschze is the devil.

Thank you for your support no leaf cover!  No one even realizes that the bible contradicts itself.  How can you call yourself a christian and still be apart of this forum?  God hates magic. Deuteronomy 18:10

well, i didnt really say anything about christians comitting sins by astral projecting, etc.. robert bruce says in astral dynamics that astral projection is not prohibited by any major religion. [B)]

keep in mind that a lot of what makes up christianity is there to keep people in line and not have them do 'wrong' things. thus, hell and satan were introduced and replaced reincarnation (around 350 AD), which was once part of christian beliefs. it was the catholic church during the medieval times..

i wouldnt try to instigate trouble with the christians, warlock [:)]. there's no way to convert a christian with words, and there's no reason that you should try. i have nothing against anyone who is christian, jewish, muslim, satanist, pagan, etc. just because of what they believe. even though the bible contradicts itself hundreds of times over, the bible has been changed and edited and rewritten more times than it is even known. i believe the bible is a good source of ancient history, it's just been changed to fit into a monotheistic religion, hence it's a little biased. there was a monotheistic movement going on when it was written. [:)]

how, yoshi?

because i've talked to Him directly about it and He said the same thing as He did for chi/psi and other metaphysical things: as long as I don't worship them or put them before Him in my life, then it does not matter. [|)]

~kakkarot

"Love one another, for love is of God,
He who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love, does not know God,
for God is Love, God is love."
-A Song

To believe in god with out proof is to have faith.
To NOT believe in god with out proof is also to have faith.

Even an athiest, who simply says that there is no god, puts the same amount of faith into thier convictions as a person who truely believes in the existance of god.

To be without religion is to be agnostic.  There may or may not be a god.  Or there is no god for me but there may be one for you.

I have not been shown enough proof one way or the other to believe whole heartedly in either direction.

There are many things in many different bibles that have some scientific backing to them but then there are also things in every bible that simply can not be proven.  I could go into great depth but I'll save it for later if need be.

Personally I am starting to believe in the personal god theory.  This being that every ones ideas of god change from person to person and some times day to day.  This and that the existance or non-existance of a god is a personal issue, which often is the result of a personal experiance.

As for my thoughts on the Christian God and Satan.  One simply can not exist with out the other.  They are the two sides of a coin.  To say you believe in one and not the other is to contradict yourself.  Satanist and Satanism believe in the existance of Satan.  Pure and simple.  Of course in the true style of Satan this fact is not revealed to you until you are "in too deep".  Satans way is to get you not to believe in God and to commit the ultimate sin, saying that God does not exist.  

For those who can not grasp the concept of this idea, I will put it this way.  In the Christian view saying that God does not exist is the same as saying your parents don't exist, that they never existed and hence did not give you life.  It is not until you have done this and delved deep into Satanism do you discover the true intent of the "teachings".  Ofcourse by this time you are already hooked on the "do it for yourself" attitude.

I think I will stop there and see what is said.

excellent post

and i've only got one problem with it: satan is not God's "opposite and balancing force" as so many people seem to believe. satan is a mere angel, God is above the angels as they are above us. (sorry for nitpicking [|)])

~kakkarot

Kakkarot you are full of $#!+.  God does not speak directly to anyone but the prophets.  ANd there are no modern day prophets.  I can sense that you are lying without even being near you just by the way that you talk.

Once again I would like to clarify that I am not Satanist but Satanists (from what I've read) do not believe in Satan as in the arch-angel but rather as just a sinister force.  In the bible it states that "the natural man is the enemy of God" therefor does this not mean that we are all Satanists since "no man can serve to masters" and if you act as a natural man should than you are serving Satan because you are the enemy of God.[V]  Therefor no matter no matter how hard you try not you sin you are still damned since "no mortal man lies without sin".  "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."[}:)]

Once again I would like to clarify that I am not Satanist but Satanists (from what I've read) do not believe in Satan as in the arch-angel but rather as just a sinister force.  In the bible it states that "the natural man is the enemy of God" therefor does this not mean that we are all Satanists since "no man can serve to masters" and if you act as a natural man should than you are serving Satan because you are the enemy of God.[V]  Therefor no matter  how hard you try not you sin you are still damned since "no mortal man lies without sin".  "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."[}:)]

[|)]sorry about that I did not mean to post the same thing twice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by warlockyoshi

God does not speak directly to anyone but the prophets.  ANd there are no modern day prophets.

---

really, i didn't know that God was so limited like that. i find it rather amazing that the creator of the entire universe cannot possibly speak to anyone other than a few select people.

but then again, all of God's people are His chosen people. and i am one of His people.

and a question: how do you KNOW there are no modern prophets? because you haven't met one? [|)]

~kakkarot

Oh but I have met a supposed prophet.  Gorden B. Hinkley of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or to put it short the Mormon church.  There was nothing divine about him I could not sense the slightest aura about him and I am fairly good at sensing auras.  In the bible it states that God does not speak to anyone but the prophet.  He does suppossedly answer prayers though.

quote:

---

Originally posted by warlockyoshi

Once again I would like to clarify that I am not Satanist but Satanists (from what I've read) do not believe in Satan as in the arch-angel but rather as just a sinister force.  In the bible it states that "the natural man is the enemy of God" therefor does this not mean that we are all Satanists since "no man can serve to masters" and if you act as a natural man should than you are serving Satan because you are the enemy of God.[V]  Therefor no matter no matter how hard you try not you sin you are still damned since "no mortal man lies without sin".  "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."[}:)]

---

that does NOT mean we're all satanists. you're implying satanist as a devil-worshiper, while an actual satanist is atheist and therefore does not believe in a monotheistic satan or god, or else is very misinformed. two very different things. and satanists refer to satan as an embodiment of their beliefs. the only difference is that they don't actually come out and say they're just trying to make people think they're bad.. but imo their satan is the embodiment of the ideal moron [|)]

and you think moses had any sort of special aura about him? he was just a sheep herder. or noah? a farmer, wasn't he? or adam and eve? they were around even before prophets began being mentioned yet God still spoke to them. or isaiah, or job, or daniel, or solomon, or ... and the list goes on.

God talks to whom He chooses to talk.[|)]

~kakkarot

I sure do.

I studied the religion for about 5 years and now that I am in a public school, I recently joined a Youth Group.  I beleive that if I have any at all success with this, it would be a gift from Him and a sign that it's all uphill from there.

~Squeek

Do you really believe that someone who sees Gos as a burning bush that talks to him is "just a sheep herder" I mean come on he had to have some type of aura to talk to God and turn a staff into a snake and by the way no leaf clover i was talking about the way God describes a Satanist in the bible not as in the actual religion of satanism.  And i hope that you were not calling me an moron because i was not tring to offend anyone.  Could you please clarify your remark.

i wasn't calling you an moron, i was saying that satanism has had a lot of influence from total assholes.

Thank you very much for clarifing that because I was afraid that I offend you.

I dont know if god exists or not. If he did I might thank him for creating all this crap (including war and disease, those are great!), but I wouldnt worship him. I worship NOTHING. Worship means that I am a worthless SOB and I agree to be gods slave and do whatever he says. Screw that! Without my body, I am a kind of god, with the same abilities but not as powerful as a "normal god".

i'm sort of on that same level, beavis. that's actually a very important part of satanism: there is no single god; everyone is their own god within themselves. but i'm not recommending satanism. they just have such policies to attract members. you can believe something like that without a religion, and that's what people should do, unless they totally believe everything that their particular religion comes out and says. i'm also against mass worship like that (church)..

I sort of believe but then again I sort of don't.

There is a higher power, sure, but I don't think that any single religion in this world has the full picture of what that power or powers are.

Most religions probably don't have a foggy clue, they just present these images of Gods and things like that to depict morals.

Later
-FT

beav: that's not what it means to follow God. i'm sorry that christianity makes it seem like that.

yoshi: if you'll notice, throughout the bible, God has used the weak, the unfavoured, the last person anyone would have thought God would use, to accomplish His tasks. it's not about "who's the best choice", because God can make the choice a good one. and that's why He does it that way: to prove to the people He's trying to talk to that He is God and that He can use anyone and anything to get a point across - He doesn't have to pick the "cream of the crop", He can use anyone.

~kakkarot

Kakkarot in case you have not noticed God chose Joseph from allof the other children to be prophet.  Joseph who was revered above all of his other brothers by his father and ultimatly God.  Have you not noticed that God has a chosen race (the Jews).  Don't you think that is a little discrimitory?  Therefore God is prejudice.  He loves Jews above all of his other creations.

hmm interesting conversation

i dont practice the craft and i am no witch. but personnally i beleve in wicca and the teachings of witchcraft. if you really look into it you will find out it makes sence.

if you look hard enough there are millions of books related to wicca, and most of christian traditions originate from it two.

my mother tells friends that I was the only one of her five children she didn't have to place inside a play pen, that I was so tranquil and well behaved that I would sit with no fuss on a small rocking chair for hours on the back porch. What she didnt know was that from my vantage point I could see what later I conceptualized as the 'Infinite', something that I could only describe as an image and feeling that extends in all directions, an all encompassing fullness, full of everthing imaginable, a boundless shimmering expanse of beauty and peace farther than the eye can see...

Mirador

most of christianity's traditions are originited from wicca, spills? i disagree.. christianity is from judaism. up until the big schism between byzantine and the roman empire and all the further schisms within it, christianity was scarcely different from judaism. the main difference is that christians see jesus of nazereth as the messiah, and jews just see him as another prophet.

wicca is completely different. wicca is a form of paganism, inspired by the 'polytheism' of sumer (the sumerians did not actually regard the annunaki as 'gods'), babylon (same situation), greece (true polytheism), rome(polytheism), etc.

If i were to believe in any god, i may as well believe in Superman. No evidence has been presented to me personally that a god exists. If there in fact is a god as in the god of the bible, i would expect him to use my own brain and believe in him only if he showed me he existed personally, and not through the words of other people.
As it is, i believe there very well could be a god 'out there', but because it hasn't been proven to me i will say that i don't think there is.
In short: I don't believe, but i don't not believe. Why didn't i just say that? [:P]

Debates like these are hilarious to me. How can one single ignorant human being know the answer to this question.

First of all, I think that anyone is entitled to their own belief. No matter how far off the rocker most may think it is. We shall all see what lies before us when we die.

Personally, I believe in God. I guess I would consider myself an extremely open minded christian. Most chrisitans wouldnt even consider me a "christian" so maybe i'm not. i honestly dont care to even have a label. I am faithful, spiritual, kind, loving, caring and grateful that I am on this earth. I believe in many other philosophies that other religions follow. I believe that maybe we all have it right somehow. You could probably take pieces and parts of every religion and come up with the truth. Then again, we could all be completely wrong.

Just have faith in your beliefs and be a positive, loving, caring person. I dont know much about satanism but the whole self centeredness that i'm hearing about it definitely doesnt make it sound that positive of a belief system. Also I agree with many others in that, how can there be a satan but not a god? sounds to me like another idea that people follow for the shock factor. regardless, i dont care. not what i believe. go ahead and believe it.

It's funny that we humans try and answer questions like "Well if there is a god, why is there disease and horror on this earth?" Knowing that you will never obtain the answer to this question or other questions like it until you die or maybe even after that... what is the point of getting so worked up about them?

The absolute beauty in this world amazes me. How astounding it is to me that there are millions and millions of people all over the world each with a different physical appearance, set of beliefs, culture, background etc... THAT right there proves to me that something exisits beyond this human/human spirit form. There is an artist at work. Life is beautiful.

[8D]Nice one, sublime[8D]

I believe in a goddess - Mother Earth, the spirit of nature. I believe in her because she came to me in a vision, in the form of the Green Lady. My experience of personally meeting this incarnation of the goddess has given me something tangeable to hold on to. Though I believe in her, I don't worship her. In fact she quite clearly asked me not to worship her, but rather just to love her. Seems to me more practical that way. I find many people tend to get the concept of worship all screwed up.

In the time I have spent taliking with the goddess, I have learned from her that there is a paramount intelligence, a consciousness that is the source of all. This source could be called god, but I choose to call it the creator. I believe in the creator because, aside from the fact that the Green Lady believes it to be true, it makes sense to me.

I don't worship the creator as christians worship god, but I am mindful of its existence, thatit is a vast sentient being with power and intelligence far beyond our comprehension. For that reason I feel the creator at the very least deserves respect.

I cannot doubt the spirit of nature exists. My experiences of meeting her are unquestionably real to me. However, I do not expect that everybody else will believe in her as I do, unless they have a similar encounter to mine. For this reason I cannot expect everybody to believe the same about god.

Mirador,
Thats a fascinating account from your chilhood! I have read in many places now it is believed that as children we have the ability to see different realities, tune into them as you would tune into a radio station. As we get older we are rather firmly told what is real and what isn't, and we lose that ability to change stations. It is possible you were able to tune into the astral, into a reality where time and space had no real distance.

James.

Sublime that is the beauty of it.  THe fact is that you cannot prove the existance of God but is it not fun to be contentious!  Can you really believe that you people have argued about something that is impossible to prove for almost a week.  Calvin and Hobbes know it all
Calvin: Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?
Hobbes: I'm not sure that man needs the help.

The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must
be content to remain an agnostic. -- Charles Darwin

SUBLIME: "How can one single ignorant human being know the answer to this question." i dissagree. its not 1 person its millions. over thousands of years [8D]

Spills: I agree... what i was trying to stress is the fact that we are all completely ignorant when it comes to knowing what life there may be after death, who "rules" that life (for lack of a better term). It seems like everyone wants to jump the gun and say "you should believe (insert belief system here) and if you dont (insert consequence here)" It's a waste of time and energy to debate about something that our humanly minds will never be able to understand until we are no longer in our human form. with astral projection, we are able to come closer to understanding life after death. it PROVES the existance of the soul.

heh.... Its things like this, that show the differsity among humanity. Things like this go on, and show us the levels of thought, that people possess through-out the world... It also shows how far along the advancement levels of the peoples 'spirit's.  

From the way christianity and satanism present themselves.... Christianity tries to promote people directly to the highest levels of existance....  Satanism seems to keep people at the physical indulgences, wich in turn keeps them more to the lower level of the physical existance. See a pattern as to how hell is supposed to be the lowest part of existance beneath the ground, whereas heaven is  dipicted to be in the clouds, as a higher existance detached from the clutches of the ground?

 Well. No matter what the case, everyone will eventually find terms upon which to be content to live with...  But for those who have thier beleifs challenged by such experiences...  Be gratefull that you can now say that you have more of an idea of what the not-so-universe [rather multi-verse, as you will....] has in store. Whatever your beliefs or, none-beliefs, just be open-minded to what others have to say, or to what is shown to you.

quote:

---

Whatever your beliefs or, none-beliefs, just be open-minded to what others have to say, or to what is shown to you.

---

... and if not open-minded at least tolerant, as i found myself being while reading about satanism. but anyhow, if you cant see the beauty in diversity, you will live a very sheltered life.

Open-mindedness, or the very least, tolerance towards the beliefs of others would be one sure way of dramatically reducing the amount of human blood spilled on this planet.

Too many fanatics refuse to allow other people to worship in the way they choose. For all the flaws that have been pointed out about satanism here, I've yet to hear about a satanist priest encouraging members of his church to strap bombs to themselves and go out to kill as many unbelieving infidels as possible.

James.

Every religion claims themself as the one and only true religion, so how can you call that open mindedness.

its not really true that all religions claim to be the only right ones (ie buddhism). i think james was talking about 'holy wars'..

i once read that the one true religion is a combination of all the religions of the world. i believe this must be the closest thing to the truth, besides maybe that we all have our own unique religious beliefs.

here is something to thing about,  when Jesus was around he never once said this is THE religion of the planet and this is the way to god. he led by example and slight guidance of his followers. when they came to him with questions expecting very specific answers, Jesus always replied with a parable (story) to get the followers to think for themselves.

it was his apostles who wound up turning the teachings OF Jesus into a teaching ABOUT Jesus.

Jesus never said what to call themselves, what rituals to perform, or when to bow, or when to kneel, etc. you get the point.

or at least what i think the point was.........be a good person to others, help out when you can, and basically dont be a selfish, ignorant jerk.


you know.....DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

You are right no leaf cover.  I was in a time bind when I was typing that post because we are not supposed to get on forums at school.  What, I meant was almost every religion.  I know what you were saying about buddhism but in the five seconds that it took me to type that post and logout before the teacher saw me, I failed to realize that.  Okay so almost every religion claims that they are the true church.  When I say church I am not talking about the individual but about the religion in general.  Many, many churches try to suprres the ideas of their members and call those who don't allow them to false prophets.  Then again alot of the ideals of some churches make absolutly perfect sense.  The other day a girl was telling me that we should go back to the old ways and forget modern technology, and science.  I replied, "If it were not for science we would not have medicine, were it not for medicine we would not be here.  The black plague would of wiped us out, and were it not for science we would still be monkeys."  That is why I do not follow the ideals of any paticular religion.  It is rediculous that the christians will not us practice cloning, it could do nothing but help.  It would allow us to more fully administer organs to those in need and it would open the door to future advancements in medical technology.  So, does it make any sense to you to not allow cloning?  Or do you believe that it is immoral and wrong?  I believe that the benifits out weight the consequences but that is just my opinion.

that's true.

as far as cloning for good purposes (stem cells).. i don't see anything wrong with it. as long as the embryo isn't made to suffer any pain, and i don't think it really consciously can until it's much more developed. sure, it won't get the chance to life a full life..

What is God? People usually refer God as the Creator of the Universe.
To understand one's action, we need to understand one's motive in an action.
What are the motives, God creates this universe?
To understand one's character, we need to see what has been done.
Look around you. It takes tremendous knowledge just to build something in particular your body.
Therefore, we can say God is an EXTREMELY intelligent being if he is the creator of this Universe.
Then it is good to assume that a very intelligent being will not do something (in particular if something involves tremendous effort) without a purpose.
The God or I prefer to refer as the GREAT intellect creates the Universe for a purpose.
Do you think an extremely intelligent being like being worshipped? Does this Universe create, so that human can worship him?
Evidence or not whether God exist only exist on one's mind. If a human cannot comprehend the evidence presented, then he cannot see the evidence in his mind.
Faith is not enough. You need to know.
I know God exists rather that I believe God exists.
If you know the reasons why the God create this universe, then you know the true beauty of life and the universe, and you have answers like most people asked, "Well if there is a god, why is there disease and horror on this earth?"

I agree no leaf clover.  I think we should clone individual organs if that is at all possible.  As for you bomohwkl I dissagree.  If god did exist and he was powerful and intellegent enough to create universes ou of dust particles, then why does he need us to worship him?  Is it because he is not unconfident of his own power or is it because HE DOES NOT EXIST[:O]  Wouldn't it be odd if god didn't exist until someone thought him up?  What if he now exists, as a topa, because people believe he exists?  Like Queen Mab from Merlin.  It is just a theory so don't make fun of me!!  That would explain all of the contradictions in the bible would it not.  If he does not exist then that would explain why everone has different views of him now wouldn't it?

warlockyoshi you have not even tried to research the subject of whether or not there is a god. i can tell from some of the things you post. you want your opinion on the matter to be so true that it is blinding you to some of the obvious answers.

i agree that the bible has many contradictions. these came about from the christians trying to wrap the other pagen religions into their own. for example christmas is celebrated as the birth of christ but the early christians just made that his "birthday" to pull the worshipors of the winter solstas into their agenda.

the early christians realized that to try and overpower the pagens and force them to believe in their ways was going to be near impossible. but to incorporate some of the pagen beliefs into the christian religion while not actually calling it that, would bring more people into the "fold".

anyway, to say there is no god is wrong!!!! im sorry but to believe in the big bang theory is dumb. something doesnt come from nothing!!!!you sound like a science man, even you should know this. the statues and museum displays show us the 10,000 bones they have found that fit the evolution THEORY. what they dont show us is the 1,000,000 bones that dont fit the theory behind the museum walls.

scientists still cant explain why certain cells in the human embryo go off to be brain cells and others go off to be liver cells and others go off to be finger nail cells. they have cracked the dna codes but all that did was explain a tiny fragment of whats going on. we hear about and look at a single cell organism and think its the simplest and most basic thing in the living world. but scientists are now starting tio discover that those same single cell organisms are more complicated than our most advanced computer on the planet. we just cant see on a small enough level yet to see whats going on inside it. we say single cell, but are actually wrong. it is made up of millions of things that we cant fathom yet.
we all think of the infinately big but we all forget about the infinately small. just because we are to arrogant to recognize the small we think we know it all and have most of the answers.

the infinately small is where we find GOD, or the CREATOR, or whatever one wants to call it. there is a driving force or controlling force behind all the small that makes up all the big stuff we can be a part of and appreciate.

guru, if the big bang theory is just that obviously impossible, it wouldn't be accepted by most scientists worldwide. the big band theory is NOT that something came from nothing and exploded, the big bang theory is that there was a super-dense mass of energy the size of a pin head, and it exploded and everything busted outwards into the universe in all directions. it does not explain where this small mass of atoms came from, but it makes perfect sense as to why the galaxies are flying apart at ever-increasing speed (along with some invisible mass).

the 3rd dimension, last i heard, was created by some glitch in a much higher dimension. some catastrophe.

there is more than one conclusion that you can come to when some fossils fit a theory and some do not [;)] to say this has to be god without a doubt is rash.

quote:

---

scientists still cant explain why certain cells in the human embryo go off to be brain cells and others go off to be liver cells and others go off to be finger nail cells.

---

neither is there a cure for the common cold. just give the world time. a hundred years ago, we were totally in the dark compared to today, and a hundred years from now, expect the same. in the past 100 years we've came up with both air planes and space ships, radios and televisions and speakers, computers, modern automobiles, mass production, satellites, etc., etc... even a very gifted man from the 1800's would have a hard time trying to simply fathom these things that we take for granted today.

no leaf clover,

all these are good points. i did come off sounding like this was the answer to god. i didnt mean to. i just meant to imply that the severe complexity of everything points more to the possibility of god than to the possibility that this all happened by a random fluke.


and i do happen to believe in the big bang. god had to make it happen somehow.lol[:D]

quote:

---

Originally posted by James S
Too many fanatics refuse to allow other people to worship in the way they choose. For all the flaws that have been pointed out about satanism here, I've yet to hear about a satanist priest encouraging members of his church to strap bombs to themselves and go out to kill as many unbelieving infidels as possible.

---

It's not so much that they want to strap bomb on themselves and kill "infidels"(whatever that means) as the desperation in their situation. More about about survival, of others, to some. Either way, they lose. People killed themselves for many reason. Could be related to revenge, hatred, pity, depression, loss or what not. It's not as simple as we would like to believe in our comfortable life. And not to say bomb strapping is right in any way.

It's true Terry B, there could be a lot more behind it, and it is a bit of an extreme example. It just seems to be so often we hear of "jihads" - holy wars, or islamic militants convinced that they will earn their families a place in heaven if they become suicide bombers. Not that christian militants are any better.

Intolerance, or lack of willingness to tolerate usually ends in violence, and more often than not it someones beliefs that isn't tolerated by others.

Funny how the central figures in all religious beliefs strongly advocate tolerance and acceptance of others and their ways.

James.

Then of course if God created every thing, then where did God come from?

warlockyoshi,
I NEVER say that God creates us just to worship him.In fact,if someone know the purpose of the existence of the universe, someone will then knows that worshipping God is an INSULT to the God itself.
In fact the TEN COMMANDMENTS:Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Make a lot of sense. How can you REPRESENT INTELLECT with anything MATERIAL?
Unfortunately, nowsaday, "chistianity" depict God as a complete idiot. I don't blame anyone who doesn't trust them. Do you think that the Designer of the Universe needs a proxy?
The Bible? Full of rubbish and distortion.For its purpose is to scared, misinformed and CONFUSED people to greatest extent until they surrender their own intellects. It is so much easy to control a flock of people who don't think.(just look like a flock of sheep) Although there are several diamonds inside the rubbish but for those who aren't evolved enough rubbish and diamonds look the same.
It is the very lacking knowledge of the PURPOSE of the UNIVERSE that causes so much misery in the world!!
However, everyone has their own freedom to do and learn whatever they one.

James,

Yep, we've often hears of militants in the name of religion. Not just islam, there are christians, jews, hindus and other are also guilty of this. By the  way the concept of jihad were very much misused today. Those who killed themselves in suicide bombing are actually committing harms to themselves here or in the afterlife according to islamic teaching. There is no such thing as killing themselves and other people and guaranteeing themselves a place in heaven. Much less the concepts of granting other people in the family a place in heaven. Everyone needs to be responsible for their own action.

Intolerance be they religious, or politics or whatnots have led to many pointless violence. It seems surprising that all the central figures of various religion strongly advocate tolerance and acceptance but there is always someone in position of authority willing to twist the fact to further their agenda. And there are always those who are susceptible to this influence. Religion is not wrong. In fact many good have come from it. But it's a powerful tools and there are always those who misuse it.

This thread is so long i doubt anyone will get to read this.. not that it matters anyway.

I dont really believe in god, however, i do believe in something. I believe in energy and karma. Maybe god is just energy and its all around us, everywhere.

Create means something does not exist and at a later TIME it does. There is no time in the higher densities/levels, therefore nothing had to be created to exist. "Who created the universe" is an invalid question.

maybe a more refined version of that question would be this..

why does anything exist at all? why isn't there just a vast, infinite nothingness covering the universe in its entirety?

thats a question thats been bugging me every since i was 6 or 7 years old. i didn't know about other dimensions or how time works, but i would wonder why anything was here at all..

bomohwkl, i am a christian. How is worshiping GOD an insult to himself!?! That makes no sense. The ten commandments are there for humanity to folllow so that we dont fall away from GOD and order in the world. We ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO MATERIALIZE GOD! YOU said that "christianity" depicts GOD as an idiot, your wrong! You cant say that. For example my church doesnt depict GOD as an idiot! The Bible was written by people that were told what to write from GOD. THEREFORE it is not rubbish. GOD is not herding us with the bible. What gave you that thought!? It doesnt lack anything. It is ment as a guidline to live our lives by. The MISERY in this world is brought on by our own sin. If the world followed the BIBLE all would be well. Before you try to put down CHRISTIANTY you better check your sources! You could get people really mad! DONT HAVE AN OUTBURST LIKE THAT AGAIN PLEASE. All you christians better stick up for yourselves.[:D] peace, tim

the bible was supposively originally written by men as the knowledge of god flowed through them or whatnot, but there are still at least two problems with this. one is that humans make mistakes, and if there is a god, it's very possible that things were written that weren't exactly words of god but were claimed and thought to be, even by the one writing the bible. two is that there have been many, many versions of the bible in the past thousand years or so. mistranslations, introductions of fictitious characters to keep order, inaccuracies that are caused by long periods of time, etc., etc.

if everybody went by the bible, there would be no such thing as science [;)] the earth would still the center of the universe, the sun and planets would revolve around earth, solar and lunar eclipses would be omens, mice would be born from rags and crumbs of bread, unexplainable things would be either 'black magic' or signs from god, etc. such things were believed in the recent past. the catholic church even persecuted anyone who openly criticized those beliefs. it was pathetic.

I am not catholic and i dont believe in there ways. Science would still occur if we followed the bible. You dont understand. True Chrisitians arent closed minded drones as you may have thought they were. We are for the advancement of science as much as everyone else. It's just thing like evolution we don't like about science because we dont believe that is true. The bible has survived past many generations. Sure there are different versions. The meaning has not changed though. God has insured that the Word is protected. Some people claim to be christians who are not truly. This may be why you have these differnet ideas about christianity. The bible doesnt say we cant have technology and science. I dont know where you people are hearing this stuff but im the christian here and i know the things your saying are not true.

timmerdogg,I am sorry if feel that way. Christianity has been always propagating the fact that Jesus died in the cross because of our SINS. That's doesnt make sense for me. Secondly, they said that we are all born with SINS. That's doesn't make sense.Those who have sins will be punished eternally in HELL. That's doesn't make sense. How can christianity who say that GOD who is soo loving his sons is sooo willing to punish his son ETERNALLY in hell becuase of some , oh well in my opinion stupid SINS that christianity believed in. Trying to scare people? Oh yes, they also removed reincarnation and add something of eternal punishment in Hell. Since I was 6, people was trying to convert me into christianity, the problem there are soo many obvious self-contradictions.I am unwilling to surrender my intellect.
Remember worship and appreciate are different things. It is the appeciation and love the God desire from us.Appeciation implies understanding. Worship always comes with ridiculous rituals. I am sorry to sound too harsh.

here's a little something about the bible you want everyone to follow.

it's long, just skim over the mini-titles. details are provided below them. remember, these quotes are from the holy, sacred documents of christianity/judaism.






"Dear Biblicist:

 I read your message regarding God's alleged goodness, mercy, and
justice.  Unfortunately, the entire message is light years from the real
god of the Bible.  Remember when I referred you to the comment by Jesus
in which he said, "Why callest thou me good, there is none good but one,
that is God."  This comment not only proves Jesus is not God or God's
equivalent, proven by his own words no less, but proves he is not
perfect, again by his own words.  Therefore he could not be god because
god by definition is perfect.
 You should be glad he directly states he is not god because if he
were, that would mean he is responsible for all of the following acts.
I would now like to give you a list of the deeds that God committed
somewhere in the Bible and citations will accompany each so there can be
no out-of-context defense.  Please keep in mind that these are the acts
of a supposedly perfect being and please bear with me as the list is
rather lengthy and horrendous to say the least.

THE BIBLICAL GOD'S BEHAVIOR

HE CREATES EVIL

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).
"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"
(Lam. 3:38).
"...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them
because of the evil of their doings" (Jer. 26:3).
"...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return
every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their
sin" (Jer. 36:3).
"I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby
they should not live.  And I polluted them in their own gifts...."
(Ezek. 20:25-26).
"For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon
this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised
them" (Jer. 32:42).
"...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"
(Amos 3:6).
 See also: Jer. 11:11, 14:16, 18:11, 19:3, 19:15, 23:12, 26:13, 26:19,
35:17, 36:31, 40:2, 42:10, 42:17, 44:2, 45:5, 49:37, 51:64, Ezek. 6:10,
Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chron. 34:24, and 2 Chron. 34:28

EVIL COMES FROM THE LORD

"it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that
David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and
was well, and the evil spirit departed from him" (1 Sam. 16:23).
"it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon
Saul...." (1 Sam. 18:10).
"the evil spirit from the Lord was upon Saul...." (1 Sam. 19:9).
"Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God
troubles thee" (1 Sam. 16:15).
"the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the
Lord troubles him" (1 Sam. 16:14).
"...evil came down from the Lord unto the gate of Jerusalem" (Micah
1:12).
"Thus saith the Lord, Behold I will raise up evil against thee out of
thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give
them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of
this sun. For thou did it secretly: but I will do this thing before all
Israel, and before the sun" (2 Sam. 12:11-12).
"God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem...."
(Judges 9:23).
 See also: 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 21:12, and Isa. 31:2.

HE DECEIVES

"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived...." (Jer. 20:7).
"if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord
have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and
will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel" (Ezek. 14:9).
"Ah, Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and
Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches unto
the soul" (Jer. 4:10).
"...God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is
false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but
had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:9-12).
 See also: 2 Chron. 18:18-22, 1 Kings 22:20-23 and Jer. 15:18.

HE TELLS PEOPLE TO LIE

"...and thou (Moses--Ed.) shalt come, thou and the elders of
Israel,unto the king of Egypt, and you shall say unto him, The Lord God
of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee,
three days journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the
Lord our God" (Ex. 3:18)    and
"afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the
Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me
in the wilderness."
 God is telling Moses to lie because the real reason is to escape.

"Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the
Lord said, Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to
the Lord" (1 Sam. 16:2).
 The Lord told Samuel to lie also, since he is actually going out to
meet a son of Jesse to anoint him king.  Yet, we are told in Prov. 12:22
that, "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

HE LIES

 Joshua 7:1 says,
"The people of Israel broke faith in regard to the devoted things; for
Achan...took some of the devoted things; and the anger of the Lord
burned against the people of Israel"
 and God responds by saying in the 11th verse,
"Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant...."
 Yet, God did not tell the truth.  Only Achan sinned, not all Israel,
and Achan admits as much in the 20th verse by saying,
"Indeed I have sinned against the Lord God of Israel...."

"He (David--Ed.) shall build a house for my name, and I will establish
the throne of his kingdom forever" (2 Sam. 7:13)
 and to David God says,
"thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever: thy throne
shall be established for ever" (2 Sam. 7:16).
 God's prophecy failed.  He didn't tell the truth.  The Davidic line
ended with Zedekiah and there was no Davidic king for 450 years when the
Maccabeans established a dynasty, the first king being Aristobulus.
Since the end of the Maccabean dynasty there has never been a king of
the Jews.  Second Kings 24:14 proves as much by saying,
"He carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty
men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and
smiths.  None remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the
land."

 If viewed together the following verses also show God engaged in
prevarication.
"...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat
of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.
2:17),
"God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest
ye die" (Gen. 3:3),
"the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die"
(Gen. 3:4),
and
"all the days that Adam lived were 930 years and he died" (Gen.
5:5).    God said Adam and Eve would die on the day they ate of the tree
and the devil said they would not.  They ate of it and Adam lived to be
930 years old. In other words, God lied and the devil told the truth.
Yet, according to Titus 1:2
"God never lies."

 And finally, in Gen. 3:14 God said to the serpent,
"...upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days
of thy life...."
 Serpents do not now and never have eaten dust.  If the serpent
represents the Devil, he does not eat dust either; so, in either case
God did not tell the truth.

HE REWARDS LIARS

Ex. 1:15-20 says, "The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose
names were Shiphrah and Puah, 'When you help the Hebrew women in
childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill
him; but if it is a girl, let her live.'  The midwives, however, feared
God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let
the boys live.  Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked
them, 'Why have you done this?  Why have you let the boys live?'  The
midwives answered Pharaoh,
'Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give
birth before the midwives arrive.'  So God was kind to the midwives and
the people increased and became even more numerous."
 The midwives lied and God rewarded them by being kind to them.

 Joshua 2:3-6 says,
"So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab, 'Bring out the men
who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy
out the whole land.'  But the woman had taken the two men and hidden
them.  She said, 'Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they
had come from.  At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the
men left.  I don't know which way they went.  Go after them quickly.
You may catch up with them. (But she had taken them up to the roof and
hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof)."
 Rahab lied about where the men were and yet James 2:25 says,
"...was not Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did
when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different
direction?"

 And 2 Kings 10:18-21 says,
"Jehu brought all the people together and said to them, 'Ahab served
Baal a little; Jehu will serve him much.  Now summon all the prophets of
Baal, all his ministers and all his priests.  See that no one is
missing, because I am going to hold a great sacrifice for Baal.  Anyone
who fails to come will no longer live.  But Jehu was acting deceptively
in order to destroy the ministers of Baal.... all the ministers of Baal
came; not one stayed away. They crowded into the temple of Baal until it
was full from one end to the other."
 And as verses 25 to 30 show Jehu ordered his guards to go in and kill
all those who worshipped Baal.  After the bloodshed and killing had
concluded the Lord said to Jehu in verse 30,
"Because you have done well in accomplishing what is right in my eyes
and have done to the house of Ahab all I had in mind to do, your
descendants will sit on the throne of Israel to the 4th generation."
 How is that for a God of mercy!

HE ORDERS MEN TO BECOME DRUNKEN

"Then tell them, 'This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel,
says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of
the sword I will send among you" (Jer. 25:27).

HE REWARDS THE FOOL AND THE TRANSGRESSOR

"The great God that formed all things both rewards the fool, and
rewards the transgressors" (Prov. 26:10).

HE DELIVERS A MAN (JOB) INTO SATAN'S HANDS

"The Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his
life" (Job 2:6).

HE MINGLES A PERVERSE SPIRIT

"The Lord has mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof; and they
have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof..." (Isa. 19:14).

HE IS NOT OMNIPOTENT OR ALL POWERFUL

"the Lord was with Judah; And he drove out the inhabitants of the
mountains; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley,
because they had chariots of iron" (Judges 1:19).

HE CAUSES INDECENCY

 God orders that the king of Assyria is to
"lead away the Egyptian prisoners, and the Ethiopian captives, young
and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the
shame of Egypt" (Isaiah 20:4).

HE SPREADS DUNG ON FACES

"Behold I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even
the dung of your solemn feasts...." (Mal. 2:3).

HE ORDERS STEALING

"...and ye shall spoil the Egyptians" (Ex. 3:22).
"...and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that
robbed them, saith the Lord God" (Ezek. 39:10).
"As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in
the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.  And you may use
the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies" (Deut.
20:14).

HE MADE FALSE AND UNFULFILLED PROPHECIES

 In Jonah 3:4 God said,
"yet 40 days and Nineveh shall be overthrown."
 But the 10th verse says,
"God saw their works, that they turned from their evil ways; and God
repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and
he did it not."
 In other words, He who knows the future changed his mind, repented,
and Nineveh was not overthrown.  His prophecy failed.

 In Gen. 15:13 God said to Abraham,
"Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country
not their own, and they shall be enslaved and mistreated 400 years."
 Acts 7:6 says the same.  But Ex. 12:40 says,
"Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was
430 years."
 God's prophecy failed by 30 years.

 Another deific prophecy is found in Gen. 15:16 which says,
"...in the 4th generation they (Abraham's descendants--Ed.) shall come
here again...."
 God told Abraham that his descendants would return in the 4th
generation.  Yet, if Abraham is included, it actually occurred during
the 6th generation.  The generations were: Abraham, Issac, Levi (Ex.
1:2), Kohath (Ex. 6:16), Amram (Ex. 6:18), and Moses (Ex. 6:20).

 In Gen. 17:3, 8 and Ex. 32:13 God told Abraham that he would give to
him and his descendants all of Canaan for an eternal possession.  But
Acts 7:5 says,
"He gave him (Abraham--Ed.) no inheritance here, not even a foot of
ground.  But God promised him that he and his descendants after him
would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child"
 and Heb. 11:13 says,
"All these people...did not receive the things promised; they only saw
them and welcomed them from a distance."
 The Bible itself admits that God's promise to Abraham failed.

 In Gen. 35:10 God said to Jacob,
"thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy
name: and he called his name Israel."
 Yet, 11 chapters later Gen. 46:2 says,
"God spoke to Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob,
Jacob. And he said, Here am I."

 Lastly, 1 Sam. 23:12 says,
"David asked, 'Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to
Saul?'  And the Lord said, 'They will'."
 This prophecy never occurred, because the opposite happened. Saul was
delivered into David's hands, not once but twice.

HE CHANGES HIS MIND

"The Lord said: I have forgiven them at your request...." (Num. 14:20).

"God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God
repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and
he did it not" (Jonah 3:10).
"God said to Balaam, 'Do not go with them.  You must not put a curse on
those people, because they are blessed.'....  That night God came to
Balaam and said, 'Since these men have come to summon you, go with them,
but do only what I tell you.' Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his
donkey and went with the princes of Moab. But God was very angry when he
went, and the angel of the Lord stood in the road to oppose him...."
(Num. 22:20-22).
 God told Balaam not to go, then changed his mind and told him to go
and punished him when he did.  Talk about indecision!

 Finally, in 2 Kings 20:1 Isaiah came to the sick Hezekiah and told him
he would die and not recover according to God's word.  But according to
the 4th and 5th verses God told Isaiah to go back and tell Hezekiah that
because God had heard his prayer and seen his tears he would be healed
and live 15 more years.  Again, God changed his mind.

HE CAUSES ADULTERY

"This is what the Lord says: 'Out of your own household I am going to
bring calamity upon you.  Before your very eyes I will take your wives
and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your
wives in broad daylight.  You did it in secret, but I will do this thing
in broad daylight before all Israel" (2 Sam. 12:11-12).

HE ORDERS THE TAKING OF A HARLOT

"...the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and
children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom,
departing from the Lord" (Hosea 1:2).

HE ORDERS A MAN TO PURCHASE HIS WIFE

"The Lord said to me, 'Go show your love to your wife again, though she
is loved by another and is an adultress.  Love her as the Lord loves the
Israelites, though they turn to other gods....  So I brought her for 15
shekels of silver and about a homer and a half of barley.  Then I told
her, 'You are to live with me many days...."  (Hosea 3:1-3).

HE KILLS REPEATEDLY

"there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the 250 men that
offered incense" (Num. 16:35).
"the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the
people; and much people of Israel died" (Num. 21:6).
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill,
and I make alive; I wound and I heal...." (Deut. 32:39).
"The Lord smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into
the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people 50,070 men: and the
people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a
great slaughter" (1 Sam. 6:19).
"The Lord kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and
brings up" (1 Sam. 2:6).
"the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed
them, and smote them...." (1 Sam. 5:6).
"it came to pass about 10 days after, that the Lord smote Nabal, that
he died" (1 Sam. 25:38).
"Who smote great nations and slew mighty kings...." (Psalms 135:10).
"For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and
the slain of the Lord shall be many" (Isaiah 66:16).
"I will dash them one against another, even the father and the sons
together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy,
but destroy them" (Jer. 13:14).
"I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your
young men have I slain with the sword...." (Amos 4:10).
"For our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).
 Also note: Gen. 38:7,10, Ex. 22:23-24, Num. 11:1, Deut. 32:41-42,
Joshua 10:10-11, 1 Sam. 5:9, Psalms 136:17-18, Hosea 9:16, Amos 2:3, Ex.
4:24, 2 Sam. 6:6-7, and 2 Kings 5:7.

HE ORDERS KILLING

"ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the
sword.  And five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you
shall put 10,000 to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by
the sword" (Lev. 26:7-8).
"the Lord said to Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang
them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the
Lord may be turned away from Israel.   And Moses said to the judges of
Israel.  Slay every one his men that were joined to Baal" (Num. 25:4-5).

"Vex the Midianites and smite them" (Num. 25:17).
"But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give
thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breathes.
But thou shalt utterly destroy them...as the Lord thy God has commanded
thee" (Deut. 20:16-17).
"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills...he left none remaining,
but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel
commanded" (Joshua 10:40).
"As I listened, god said to the others, 'Follow him through the city
and kill, without showing pity or compassion.  Slaughter old men, young
men and maidens, women and children...." (Ezek. 9:5-6).
"And the Lord sent you on a mission, saying 'Go and completely destroy
those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have
wiped them out.'" (1 Sam. 15:18).
"Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill
and completely destroy them' declares the Lord.  Do everything I have
commanded you" (Jer. 50:21).
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that
belongs to them.  Do not spare them; put to death men and women,
children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys" (1 Sam.
15:3).
 Also note: Ex. 32:27-28, Num. 21:34-35, 31:7-8, 35:19-21, and Jer.
48:10.

HE LOSES HIS TEMPER

 Even though Job 5:2 says,
"For wrath kills the foolish man, and envy slays the silly one" God
often loses his composure. The following are good examples:

         "...the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger...."
(Deut. 13:17).
         "The anger of the Lord was hot against Israel and he sold them
into the hand of Mesopotamia's king...." (Judges 3:8).
         "...the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire
shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9).
         "again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel...."
(2 Sam. 24:1).
         "...he made Israel to sin, to provoke the Lord God of Israel
to anger with their vanities"  (1 Kings 16:26).
         "...the Lord revenges, and is furious; the Lord will take
vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserves wrath for his enemies"
(Nahum 1:2).
         "the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel...." (2
Kings 13:3).
         "the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel" (Judges 2:20).
          See also: Ex. 32:10, Num. 11:1, 16:46, 32:13-14, 1 Kings
14:9, 15:30, 16:2, 16:7, 16:13, 2 Chron. 34:25, Psalm 18:7, and Jer.
44:6.

HE IS OFTEN JEALOUS

         "...I the Lord thy God am a jealous God...." (Deut. 5:9, Ex.
20:5).
         "For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you...." (Deut.
6:15).
         "How long, O Lord? Will you be angry forever?  How long will
your jealousy burn like fire?" (Psalm 79:5).
         "For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I
spoken...." (Ezek. 38:19).
         "God is jealous, and the Lord revenges...." (Nahum 1:2).
         "Thus says the Lord of hosts; I was jealous of Zion with great
jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury" (Zech. 8:2).
          See also: Ex. 34:14, Deut. 4:24, 29:20, Psalms 78:58, Ezek.
16:38, 36:5-6 and Joshua 24:19.

HE IS NOT EVERYWHERE or OMNIPRESENT

 Even though Jer. 23:24 says,
"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith
the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
 and Psalm 139:7-12 says the Lord is everywhere, the following verses
say he is not.

         "Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the
land of Nod, on the east of Eden" (Gen. 4:16).
         "the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the
children of men built" (Gen. 11:5).
         "he said to Balak, Stand here by thy burnt offering, while I
meet the LORD yonder"  (Num. 23:15).
         "...the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an
earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: and after the
earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire...." (1 Kings
19:11-12).
         "I, the Lord, will go down and see if what they have done is
as bad as the outcry that has reached me.  If not, I will know" (Gen.
18:21).
         "So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord" (Job 1:12
and 2:7),
          and
"Jonah rose up to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord...."
(Jonah 1:3).
          Also note: Gen. 17:22, 18:33, Ex. 11:4, 20:24, 25:8, Deut.
33:2, Psalm 9:11, 10:1, 14:2, Jer. 23:39, Hosea 11:9, Joel 3:17, Hab.
3:3.

HE DOESN'T KNOW ALL

 Even though Prov. 15:3,
"The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and
the good"
 says god sees everything that goes on, the following verses deny his
omniscience.

         "the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him,  Where art
thou?" (Gen. 3:9).
         "the Lord said to Cain, 'Why are you angry?  Why is your face
downcast?" (Gen. 4:6).
         "the Lord said to Cain, Where is Abel thy brother?  And he
said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?" (Gen. 4:9).
         "Then the Lord said,...I will go down and see if what they
have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me.  If not, I will
know" (Gen. 18:20-21).
         "Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the
desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know
what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands"
(Deut. 8:2).
         "you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer.
The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with
all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut. 13:3).
         "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to
see if there were any that did understand, and seek God" (Psalm 14:2).
         "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Have you come to
inquire of me?  As surely as I live, I will not let you inquire of me,
declares the Sovereign Lord" (Ezek. 20:3).
          Also note: Gen. 22:12, Num. 22:9, 2 Chron. 32:31, Hosea 8:4,
Amos 9:3, and Jer. 32:35.
 Yet, God does know all according to Prov. 15:3 which says, "The eyes
of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good."

HE REPENTS

 Even though 1 Sam. 15:29
"the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man,
that he should repent"
 says that god never repents, the following verses say the opposite.

         It repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it
grieved him at his heart" (Gen. 6:6).
         "...the Lord repented of the evil which he though to do unto
his people" (Ex. 32:14).
         "...the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel"
(1 Sam. 15:35).
         "The Lord said, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be
king...." (1 Sam. 15:11).
         "...that I the Lord God may repent of the evil, which I
purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings" (Jer.
26:3).
         "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from
their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them"
(Jer. 18:8),
           and
"...for I repent of the evil that I have done to you" (Jer. 42:10).
          Also see: Deut. 32:36, Judges 2:18, 2 Sam. 24:16, 1 Chron.
21:15, Psalm 106:45, Jer. 15:6, 18:10, 26:13, 26:19, Amos 7:3, 7:6,
Jonah 3:9-10, Joel 2:13, and Hosea 11:8.

HE PRACTICES INJUSTICE

 Even though Deut. 32:4
"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a
God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he"
 says God is just and fair, the following verses prove the opposite.

         "Then say to the Pharaoh, This is what the Lord says: Israel
is my firstborn son, and I told you, 'Let my son go, so he may worship
me,'  But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son'"
(Ex. 4:22-23).
         "The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy...visiting the
iniquity of the fathers on the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation"
(Num. 14:18).
         "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord;
even to the 10th generation shall he not enter...." (Deut. 23:2).
         "Thy son and thy daughters shall be given unto another
people...." (Deut. 28:32).
         "When Achan son of Zerah acted unfaithfully regarding the
devoted things, did not wrath come upon the whole community of Israel?
He was not the only one who died for his sin" (Joshua 22:20).
         "because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord
show utter contempt, the son born to you will die" (2 Sam. 12:14).
         "During the reign of David, there was a famine for 3
successive years; so David sought the face of the Lord.  The Lord said,
'It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he
put the Gibeonites to death'" (2 Sam. 21:1).
         "if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the
Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon
him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel" (Ezek.
14:9).
         "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and
death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all
sinned...." (Rom. 5:12).
         "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time
of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did
Adam...." (Rom. 5:14).
          For additional examples of divine injustice in action see:
Gen. 9:25, 12:17, 20:6-7, Ex. 12:12, 12:29, 21:29, Lev. 5:17, 12:2,5,
15:19, 19:20-22, 21:14, Num. 5:27, 20:7-8, 11, 23-24, 28, 21:4-6,
35:15-18, 35:25, Deut. 19:11-12, 21:18-21, 25:11, 28:53-55, 59, 32:25,
Joshua 7:11, 1 Sam. 2:33, 6:19, 2 Sam. 6:6-7, 24:15-17, 1 Kings
11:11-12, 13: 17-19, 24, 14:15-17, 16:34, 20:35-36, 20:28, 34, 41-42,
21:21, 21:29, 2 Kings 21:16, 17:21, 1 Chron. 21:1, 7, Ezek. 21:3, Matt.
13:12, and Rom. 9:13-16, 18-20.

HE PLAYS FAVORITES

 We are told in Deut. 10:17 and 16:19 that
"the Lord your God is God of Gods...which regards not persons"
 and we are told in 2 Chron. 19:7 that,
"...there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons,
nor taking of gifts."
 Yet, that is clearly disproven by the following comments.

         "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord
thy God has chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all
people that are upon the face of the earth"  (Deut. 7:6, 14:2).
         "the Lord will not forsake his people for his great name's
sake: because it has pleased the Lord to make you his people" (1 Sam.
12:22).
         "For thy people Israel didst thou make thine own people for
ever; and thou, Lord, became their God" (1 Chron. 17:22).
         "Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee
away" (Isaiah 41:9).
         "my people shall know my name...." (Isa. 52:6).
         "I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an
inheritor of my mountains; and mine elect shall inherit it...." (Isa.
65:9).
         "You only have I known of all the families of the earth...."
(Amos 3:2).
         "But Jesus answered and said, 'I am not sent but unto the lost
sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24).
         "...for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).
          Favoritism is also evident in Gen. 4:4-5, 12:1-3, 13:14-15,
35:12, Ex. 2:25, 11:7,19:5-6, Lev. 26:3-12, Deut. 4:40, 7:14, 28:1-13,
Joshua 24:13, 1 Kings 3:12, 8:53, 2 Kings 13:22-23, 2 Chron. 1:1, 12,
Psalm 138:6, Isa. 43:1, 5, 45:4, 51:2, 16, 63:8, Haggai 2:23, Mal.
1:2-3, Matt. 10:5-6, Luke 1:13, 6:20, Acts 10:40-41, 13:19, 16:6-7, Rom.
1:16, 2:9-10, 9:4-5, 9:13, 11:5, 7, and 1 Peter 2:9.

SANCTIONS SLAVERY

 God sanctions slavery in direct contradiction to 2 Cor. 3:17,
which says,
"Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty."
 Key statements in this regard are the following:

         "Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear
unto the door, and he shall be thy servant (Read slave--Ed.) forever.
And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise" (Deut. 15:17).
         "Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give
satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to
pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in everything they
may adorn the doctrine of God" (Titus 2:9).
         "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and
with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.  Obey them not
only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of
Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.  Serve wholeheartedly, as
if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord
will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or
free"  (Eph. 6:5-7).
         "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect,
not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who
are harsh.  For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of
unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.  But how is it to your
credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it?  But if
you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before
God.   To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving
you an example, that you should follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:18-21).
         "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it,
not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with
sincerity of heart and reverence of the Lord.  Whatever you do, work at
it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you
know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.  It
is the Lord Christ you are serving" (Col. 3:22-24).
         "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their
masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may
not be slandered.  Those who have believing masters are not to show less
respect for them because they are brothers.  Instead, they are to serve
them even better, because those who benefit from their service are
believers, and dear to them.  These are the things you are to teach and
urge on them" (1 Tim. 6:1-2).

HE DEGRADES DEFORMED PEOPLE

 In Lev. 21:16-23 God said to Moses,
"Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants
who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.  No man who
has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or
deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or
dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running
sores or damaged testicles.  No descendant of Aaron the priest who has
any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the Lord by
fire.  He has a defect.... because of this defect, he must not go near
the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary...."
(Lev. 21:16:23).

HE PUNISHES BASTARDS FOR BEING ILLEGITIMATE

 Deut. 23:2 says,
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to
his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the
Lord."

HE PUNISHES MANY FOR THE ACTS OF ONE

"...for the Lord had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household
because of Abraham's wife Sarah" (Gen. 20:18).
"When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to
the Lord, 'I am the one who has sinned and done wrong.  These are but
sheep.  What have they done?  Let your hand fall upon me and my family"
(2 Sam. 24:17).
"To the woman he said, 'I will greatly increase your pains in
childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children" (Gen. 3:16).
 Also note Joshua 7:24-26.

HE PUNISHES CHILDREN FOR THEIR FATHERS' SINS

"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon
the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation"
(Ex. 34:7).
"...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation of them
that hate me...." (Ex. 20:5, Deut. 5:9).
"It came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in
the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne
unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the
firstborn of cattle" (Ex. 12:29).
 See also: Deut. 23:2, Num. 14:33, Gen. 17:14, and Gen. 9:22-25.

HE PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM HEARING HIS WORDS

"Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and
close their eyes.  Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with
their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Isa.
6:10).
"So you see God is kind to some just because he wants to be, and he
makes some refuse to listen" (Rom. 9:18).
"This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not
see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.  In them is
fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never
understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving" (Matt.
13:13-14).
 See also: John 12:39-40, Mark 4:10-12, and Luke 8:9-10.

HE SUPPORTS HUMAN SACRIFICE

 Ex. 22:29-30 says,
"Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats.  You must
give me the firstborn of your sons.  Do the same with your cattle and
your sheep.  Let them stay with their mothers for 7 days, but give them
to me on the 8th day."
 And Lev. 27:28-29 says,
"Nothing that a man owns and devotes to the Lord--whether man or animal
or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most
holy to the Lord.  No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he
must be put to death."
 He also permitted human sacrifice according to Ezek. 20:26, which
says,
"I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every
firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I
am the Lord."

HE ORDERS CANNIBALISM

 Lev. 26:29 says,
"Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughter
shall ye eat."
 Jer. 19:9 says,
"I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they
will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on
them by the enemies who seek their lives."
 Ezek. 5:10 says,
"In your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat
their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all
your survivors to the winds."
 Isaiah 49:26 says,
"I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on
their own blood, as with wine...."
 And in John 6:53-54 Jesus says,
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and
drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and
drinks my blood has eternal life...."

HE DEMANDED 16,000 VIRGINS BE GIVEN TO SOLDIERS AS WAR PLUNDER AND 32 BE
SET ASIDE FOR HIMSELF

 Num. 31:31-40 says,
"Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.  The
plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000
sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 women who had never
slept with a man....  And the half, the portion of those who had gone
out to war, was....16,000 people, of which the tribute for the Lord was
32."
 Women rank right up there with cattle, donkeys, and sheep.  And they
have to be virgins, at that!  Imagine a righteous and perfect God
wanting 32 virgins to be set aside for himself!

HE ORDERS GAMBLING

 Joshua 14:2 says,
"Their inheritances were assigned by lot to the nine-and-a-half tribes,
as the Lord had commanded through Moses."
 Num. 26:52-56 says,
"The Lord said to Moses, The land is to be allotted to them as an
inheritance based on the number of names....  Be sure that the land is
distributed by lot....  Each inheritance is to be distributed by lot
among the larger and smaller groups."

HE REQUIRES AN UNBETROTHED VIRGIN TO MARRY HER SEDUCER

 Ex. 22:16 says,
"If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps
with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife."

HE ORDERS HORSES TO BE HAMSTRUNG

 Joshua 11:6 says,
"The Lord said to Joshua,...You are to hamstring their horses and burn
their chariots."

HE SANCTIONS THE DEGRADATION OF THE ENEMIES' WOMEN

 Deut. 21:10-13 says,
"When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord you God delivers
them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the
captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as
your wife....  After she has lived in your house and mourned her father
and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband
and she shall be your wife."

HE SANCTIONS THE BEATING OF SLAVES AS LONG AS THE SLAVE CAN ARISE AT
LEAST A DAY OR TWO AFTER THE BEATING

 Ex. 21:20-21 says,
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies
as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if
the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

HE REQUIRES A WOMAN TO MARRY HER RAPIST

 Deut. 22:28-29 says,
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and
rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty
shekels of silver.  He must marry the girl, for he has violated her.  He
can never divorce her as long as he lives."

HE TRAINS OTHERS FOR WAR

 Psalm 144:1 says,
"Praise be to the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my
fingers for battle."

HE ORDERED THE COOKING OF FOOD WITH HUMAN FECES

 Ezek. 4:12 says,
"Eat the food as you would a barley cake; bake it in the sight of the
people, using human excrement as fuel."

HE KILLED THE WICKED AND THE RIGHTEOUS

 Ezek. 21:3-4 says,
"...This is what the Lord says: I am against you.  I will draw my sword
from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the
wicked.  Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my
sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north."

HE INTENTIONALLY GAVE OUT BAD LAWS

 Ezek. 20:25 says,
"I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they
could not live by...."

HE EXCUSED THE SINS OF PROSTITUTES AND ADULTERERS

 Hosea 4:14 says,
"I will not punish your daughters when they turn to prostitution, nor
your daughters-in-law when they commit adultery, because the men
themselves consort with harlots and sacrifice with temple
prostitutes...."

HE EXCUSED A MURDERER AND PROMISED HIM PROTECTION

 After Cain killed Abel he was banished from the Garden of Eden and the
following dialogue occurred within Gen. 4:13-15.
"Cain said to the Lord, 'My punishment is more than I can bear.  Today
you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your
presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds
me will kill me.'  But the Lord said to him, 'Not so; if anyone kills
Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.'  Then the Lord put a
mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him."

HE KILLED A MAN WHO REFUSED TO IMPREGNATE HIS WIDOWED SISTER-IN-LAW

 Gen. 38:8-10 says,
"Then Judah said to Onan, 'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill
your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your
brother.'  But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so
whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his seed on the
ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.  What he did
was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also."

HE AIDED RATHER THAN PUNISHED A SWINDLER

 In Gen. 28:14-15 God promised Jacob that his descendants would be like
the dust of the earth and all the families of the earth would be blessed
by him and his descendants.  God also said he would watch over Jacob
wherever he went and would not leave him.  Yet, Jacob was the swindler
who stole the birthright of his brother, Esau.

HE DOESN'T SEE ALL

 Gen. 4:14 says,
"Today you (God--Ed.) are driving me (Adam--Ed.) from the land, and I
will be hidden from your presence."

HE IS INDECISIVE

 In Gen. 18:17 the Lord says,
"Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?"

HE DISCOVERS WOMEN'S SECRET PARTS

 Isaiah 3:17 says,
"the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters
of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts."

HE BREAKS UP FAMILIES

 Ex. 21:2-4 says,
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years.  But in
the 7th year, he shall go free....  If his master gives him a wife and
she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong
to her master, and only the man shall go free."

HE ORDERS THE KILLING OF CHILDREN

 Ezek. 9:6 says,
"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and
women...."
 and 1 Sam. 15:3 says,
"...slay both man and woman, infant and suckling...."

HE KILLED OVER 50,000 PEOPLE BECAUSE A FEW LOOKED INTO AN ARK

 1 Sam. 6:19 says,
"the Lord smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into
the Ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people 50,070: and the people
lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great
slaughter."

HE MANDATED UNLIMITED PUNISHMENT FOR LIMITED SINS

 Matt. 25:46 says,
"these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal."
 Also note Rev. 14:11 and Mark 9:43-48.

AND LASTLY, HE VIOLATED HIS OWN LAWS ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS

 (1) In Ex. 20:13 he said thou shalt not kill; yet, in Deut. 32:39 and
many other verses he said,
"I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal...."
 (2) John 4:8 and 4:16 say God is love and 1 Cor. 13:4 says love is not
jealous or boastful.  Yet, Deut. 4:24 says God is a consuming fire, even
a jealous God.  How can God be jealous when several verses say God is
love and 1 Cor. says love is not jealous?
 (3) In the Ten Commandments God says thou shalt not commit adultery;
yet, Matt. 1:18 says,
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about.  His mother Mary was
pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was
found to be with child through the Holy Ghost.  Because Joseph her
husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public
disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly."
 The Holy Ghost, who is God, impregnated another being's wife.  If that
is not adultery, what is it?
 (4) In Lev. 19:18 God says,
"you shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of
your own people...."
 Yet, in Deut. 32:35 God says,
"To me belongs vengeance, and recompense."
 God rules out taking vengeance by others, but relegates it to himself.

 (5) In Luke 6:27 God tells us to love our enemies and do good to those
who hate you.  Yet, in Gen. 19:24 he rained fire and brimstone upon
Sodom and Gomorrah because they had rejected him.
 (6) Prov. 6:16 says,
"there are 6 things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him"
 and the 19th verse says one of these is,
"...a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up
dissension among brothers."
 Yet, Gen. 11:9 says,
"That is why it was called Babel--because there the Lord confused the
language of the whole world."
 The Lord hates those who sow dissension even though he is responsible
for all the confusion that emerged from his creation of a multitude of
languages.
 (7) In Matt. 26:52 Jesus said,
"Put up thy sword...for all they that take the sword shall perish with
the sword."
 Yet, in Ezek. 21:5 God says,
"Then all the people will know that I the Lord have drawn my sword from
its scabbard; it will not return again."
 If what Jesus said is true, why has the Lord not perished?
 (8) Deut. 6:16 says,
"Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God,"
 while Gen. 22:1 says,
"it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham...."
 God tells us not to tempt, but he does.
 (9) In First John 2:15 we are told not to love the world, neither the
things that are in the world.  If any man loves the world, the love of
the Father is not in him.  Yet, John 3:16 says,
"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life."
 We are not supposed to love the world, but God sure does.
 (10) And finally, Job 5:2 says,
"For wrath kills the foolish man, and envy slays the silly one."
 Displaying wrath is to be considered anathema; yet Psalm 21:9
("...the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall
devour them"),
Ex. 31:10 ("...let me alone that my wrath may wax hot against them"),
and
Num. 16:46 ("...for there is wrath gone out from the Lord") clearly
show wrath is one of the Lord's more prominent traits.

CONCLUSION

         The obvious conclusion to be drawn from all of the above is
that God strongly adheres to the maxim, "Do as I say, not as I do,"
which parents are often condemned for practicing.

In sum and substance, the last six commentaries have proved beyond any
reasonable doubt that the biblical God is one of the most reprehensible
characters to have ever appeared in the annals of literature.

One can readily understand why Robert Ingersoll said on page 237 in
Volume 2 of his Works, "It is impossible for me to conceive of a
character more utterly detestable than that of the Hebrew god."  Two
pages later he said, "It is impossible to conceive of a more thoroughly
despicable, hateful, and arrogant being, ...."  And in *Some Mistakes of
Moses* he said, "A false friend, an unjust judge, a braggart, a
hypocrite, a tyrant, sincere in hatred, jealous, vain and revengeful,
false in promise, honest in curse, suspicious, ignorant, infamous and
hideous--such is the God of the Pentateuch."

And finally, after reading the last six commentaries can you imagine
anyone, any being, saying, "Yes, that's my book, that represents me,
that's the way I am," especially a supposedly perfect being?  Is there
any figure in history with a worse record, including Adolph Hitler and
Ghenghis Khan?  The Devil comes out of the Bible looking much better
than any alleged God.  You would almost think the book was written by
the Devil about an alleged God.  Biblicists contend that atheists and
those of a similar persuasion are gambling with their future and fate by
not believing in a supreme being, when they are the ones engaged in a
tremendous wager.  The Bible portrays God in a manner that can only be
described as appalling.  And yet they are telling people it is His
word.  One can only imagine the horrible fate that awaits them when God
is finally given an opportunity to even the score for their blasphemous
portrayal of His alleged words and deeds."

I didnt take the time to read all of it but i scimmed it a little and from i see it is bits and pieces of verses taken out of context and trying to make God look bad. Anyone can come up with ways to bring everything to falsehood. You just put bits and pieces of different things together and try to make it look as bad as possible.
   Sin is within all of us. Jesus died for those sins so that we will be saved if we follow him and obey his commands. He died as the ultimate sacrifice so that we could be saved. EVERYONE has sin but if you accept Jesus into your heart then he cleanses us and saves us from hell. All we need to do is repent when we have sinned and ask for forgivness, when we are christians. We also have to turn from our evil ways and not go back to doing them. God does have mercy. He wants everyone to be in heaven with him but those that will not accept his free gift of salvation condem themselves to hell. Reincarnation was never a part of christianity! How can you not believe in sin. Dont you know what is right and wrong? Are you saying having sex with a slut off the street is not sin? Is it wrong? YES, so it is sin.

Timmerdogg:I commend you for clearing up all that non-sense about the Bible/Christianity and for standing up for what you believe in. That stuff he posted is perfect example of taking verses out of context. You obviously understand Christianity and are a true Christian. No offense to you clover, but it is wrong of you to try to tear apart someone's beliefs or try to turn them away from a belief by posting mis-information. If you don't agree with Christianity or don't like it, then all you need do is say so and that would be cool.

no leaf clover...........way to go! that was extremely impressive and well researched. yes in some instances you were taking some things out of context but you do apparently know your subject matter. [:D]

and to timmerdogg, yes it is understandable to stand up for what you believe in, but at the same time use your intelligence. to just blindly follow something is foolish. i am a christian also and was where you are at a few years ago. the contradictions in the bible affected me greatly and i started to research the subjects. i talked to various religions pastors, i read numerous books on the histories of the periods and archeological findings, looked into the dead sea scrolls, etc. and it has all led me to the here and now that shows me nobody, and i mean nobody has any significant answers and or proof about the bibles claims. everything came down to sombodys opinion and personal strength of belief. it is just too hard to put my faith in a god that puts us here and then tells us no to everything. we cant do this, we cant do that, we cant indulge ourselves in anything or it is being unspiritual. which means automatic sin. well screw that. we are fallable and sinful.(by the great love of god)  we are blamed not only for our own sins but for the sins of our fathers. what kind of crappy deal is that? its like He is making sure that we are going to be sinful for something and have no choice but to turn to him for forgiveness. well what about us forgiving Him? picking a certain race of people over others, letting our little children get cancer or even kidnapped ands raped and killed by some depraved sicko, and other atrocities like those. how about a life filled with the worship and love and devotion to god and then you get to spend your last years on this earth while your body breaks down, you cant remember any of your loved ones, you are crapping all over yourself, and you cant even have the dignity of enjoying your retirement years because all your money is going to the upkeep of yourself so you dont croak. where is this loving god that i keep hearing about? because i sure dont see him! i see this big neutral being that cares about as much for me as he does the slime slug that lives at the bottom of the ocean.

and again well done no leaf clover. i think i am going to print that out and start carrying it around with me to wake people up.

The Bible has a lot of sybolism and is not meant to be picked apart like that. The new testament is what we are to focus on, some things from the old testament don't even apply to us now days. (Otherwise we would still be sacraficing live lambs!)[xx(] The basic message of the Bible is that God intended for us to have free will, (which is why He doesn't give us proof of His existance, He didn't want robots.

Adam and Eve screwed up, there original sin was carried through all generations, (we can pout and whine but that's just how it is). Now sin is in our nature. (look at the state of the world today, violence, selfishness, no morals, greed, all kinds of evil, and it's getting worse, Biblical prophesies are coming true.)

But there is good news. God, this unfathomably powerful force, became one of his creations and suffered a horrible death on the cross as a ransom for our sin because He loved us so much! All we have to do is have faith that this is true, to understand we are sinners, and to ask forgiveness. If we do this we will be with Him and have everlasting life. If we reject this wonderful gift, we will go to Hell. That's just how it is.

That is the basic message, I know it raises many questions and you can have many of them answered if you show some interest by actually studying the Bible. There are study guides, books, Christian forums, etc.

I know there are extremests out there that do give us Christians a bad rep, but we are all not like that, thankfully.[8D]

Forgivesness comes from within yourself. If you feel guilty and you know u have done something wrong and u can not forgive yourself, then you cannot be forgiven.
Gospel of Thomas from the dead scroll sea said:
3 Jesus said "If you leaders say to you, "Look, the kingdom is in heaven" the the birds of heaven will precede you. If they say to you, "It is in the sea" then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside you and it is outside you"....
Obvious, it also means that no matter how powerful a person, he will never able to change the TRUTH of the universe, however, no one can stop him from misinforming people. We are here to discover the TRUTH (or as close as the TRUTH as possible) in our life.
Anyway Human is already capable of evil himself. Just put Satan aside, he might not even exist!!

GTP "If we reject this wonderful gift, we will go to Hell. That's just how it is."

Your god has threatened to burn me (or have somebody else do it). I will not worship anybody who threatens me. I also refuse to obey his punishment for not obeying his mistranslated instructions, if he even wrote them. You might be too weak to resist this terrorist, but I am not.

heh... i just copied and pasted. a friend of mine sent that to me (monkey!). i loved it too, thats why i still have it.

sorry gtp, but that's not "just how it is". i think that's ignorant of you to use that as an excuse for a reason for anything. "that's just how it is" doesn't even make sense on its own.

1) there's good evidence that is subdued by the catholic church that jesus never died on the cross, but had lived and had several children that became kings all over europe. there's a link to a book on the subject on another forum. i'll find it and post it for you. looks like a good read.

2) "satan" was introduced to the church at around 350 ad. prior to this the church supported reincarnation. satan and hell are bed time stories to keep christian sheep in line. there is no satan. there is no hell. the closest thing to hell is the lower astral realms, and when you die, if you believe, or even fear going to hell, you may very well wind up in an unpleasant realm for a while. the church is at fault for this. we should all look forward to a peaceful afterlife.

3) "god" "judges" us on what we do, not what our ancestors did. yet we still pay for mistakes made by adam and eve, as we are not immortal. i don't find this to make any sense, but maybe that's just me [;)].

i only the think the quotes with the ellipsises (or ellipsi? sp?) have been taken out of context. some of the quotes are dead-on, right from the bible, in perfect context. i admit whoever originally wrote that up was a little biased and tried to take some statements out of context completely, but for the ones that aren't out of context (a good many!!), it makes you think.. unless, of course, you're the kind of 'sheep' christian that goes along with whatever he/she hears and defends it to the death, even when it's obvious that they're wrong, as if it's some sort of act of faith.. [:P]

here's a link to the book about jesus not dying on the cross..

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440136482/103-2898023-0022232?vi=glance

Hmmm, I've been called weak and ignorant for stating my beliefs. Oh well, in the past I might have been stoned to death for what I've said, I'm glad we have come this far![:P] Seriously though, everyone has their own beliefs, I've politely passed along the message of my beliefs and have been insulted in the process but that honestly comes as no surprise.

I would however like to 'brush the dirt off my name' and clear up any misconceptions about me. No I am not weak minded or anything just because I place my trust in Jesus; if you were to ask my family or any of my athiest or Christian friends they would confirm this. Am I ignorant because I trust the Bible? Maybe. Maybe not. But I can feel God's love and have faith, so I'm very secure in my beliefs.

I'm not some fanatic Bible thumper here to troll, I regularily have OBE's both naturally and self-induced, and practice lucid dreaming, I've had LSD-induced mystical experiences and had some pretty crazy experiences in sensory deprivation tanks.

Still think I'm weak minded and ignorant?

The most dangerous for conscious evolution is believing something without personal verification. If something is true then it can be verified by anyone. When something is true is will agree on everything u observe without any self-contradiction. That's the method I use verify my own 'belief' system until I understand and know.
Swallow a belief system WITHOUT QUESTIONING and personal verifying is a great step BACKWARD in spiritual progression. Worst still, if it is full of distorted and misinformation of spiritual knowledge.It is our own responsibility to sort this out.
The wise Buddha once said,"Do not accept my lessons because you respect me! You should use practice to test the Universal Truths that I teach, just like using fire to test real gold. You can learn to recognize the Essential Universal Truths from the fruits of their manifestations."

i didn't say you were weak-minded, i said it was ignorant of you to use "that's just how it is" as a reason for things. "that's just how it is" does not account for satan, jesus, etc.

i did not call you an ignorant person to begin with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bomohwkl

The most dangerous for conscious evolution is believing something without personal verification. If something is true then it can be verified by anyone. When something is true is will agree on everything u observe without any self-contradiction. That's the method I use verify my own 'belief' system until I understand and know.
Swallow a belief system WITHOUT QUESTIONING and personal verifying is a great step BACKWARD in spiritual progression. Worst still, if it is full of distorted and misinformation of spiritual knowledge.It is our own responsibility to sort this out.

---

I agree that you should always question a belief system. But I also believe that not everything can be personaly verified, whether it is supernatural or not. That is why I have faith. Everyone uses faith to some degree. It's just that for me, a big part of my belief involves faith.[:)]

thanks for backing me up GTP![;)] I am sick of everyone putting down the christian belief. I have a personal relationship with God and noone on this forum will be able to tear me apart from God. You have never experienced the joy of christianity. How can you say stuff without any backround? I AM A CHRISTIAN. YOU ARE NOT. So wouldnt i know more about christianty than you? In the Bible it says that people will be blinded by Satan and dont want to see God. God sends people like missionaries to try and get these people to see again. How can you explain ex-child rapests accepting God and then turning their whole lives around and are the kindest people afterwards!? Adam and Eve were just like us. IF WE were in their position WE WOULD HAVE SINNED ALSO. It is in our nature. God gave us the ability to make our own decisions and we abused it and were punished for it. No other gods in other religions have died for humans or had compasion. That is evidence enough to know that the true God is real in christianity. KEEP STICKEN UP GTP![8D]

These last number of posts are one of the reasons I don't worship any god. People end up getting all bent out of shape in defence of their beliefs. A criticises B's religious text, B gets all upset about it and starts criticising A. It becomes personal, then gets violent.

Look at how many Muslims openly proclaimed they wished to kill Salman Rushdi when he brought out books bagging the Qaran.

James.

ahh.. maybe this is what timeless meant about the "us/them" thing. maybe i should go back and look over those posts.

timmerdogg, *i used to be a christian*. i just eventually stopped believing in their bs. i started questioning  things, and a whole lot was revealed to me. that should answer a lot of your questions. ("You have never experienced the joy of christianity. How can you say stuff without any backround? I AM A CHRISTIAN. YOU ARE NOT. So wouldnt i know more about christianty than you? In the Bible it says that people will be blinded by Satan and dont want to see God.")

christians arent the only ones to experience joy, timmerdogg. no one's being blinded by satan except you, because satan is a tool of the church, and you're using him for exactly what he was made for: to try and scare others into believing. too bad i've already gotten over the whole christian thing or i might actually be scared. or not.. i wouldnt know.

quote:

---

Originally posted by James S

These last number of posts are one of the reasons I don't worship any god. People end up getting all bent out of shape in defence of their beliefs. A criticises B's religious text, B gets all upset about it and starts criticising A. It becomes personal, then gets violent.

---

Well, I hope we don't have to resort to bloodshed in this topic![:P]
Actually James, the only personal attacks and critisisms I've seen so far in this topic did not come from the Christian side of the debate....

i dont see any personal attacks coming from either 'side' x.x

If there is a god, and a heaven and hell. I dont see how sucking up to god is going to get you into heaven. Thats all the christians do, suck up to him, hoping god will let them into heaven.

And if god died for our sins, that means we can commit as many sins we like and still get into heaven as long as at the end before we die we say something like "I believe in you god, I repent my sins, I hope you forgive me"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eonnn

If there is a god, and a heaven and hell. I dont see how sucking up to god is going to get you into heaven. Thats all the christians do, suck up to him, hoping god will let them into heaven.

And if god died for our sins, that means we can commit as many sins we like and still get into heaven as long as at the end before we die we say something like "I believe in you god, I repent my sins, I hope you forgive me"

---

This is such an ignorant view of Christianity that it's not even worth replying to but I am anyway just because it's so offensive to me. I'll make this short and sweet. You obviously have no real understanding of the Christian faith, therefore your opinion means nothing. Your immaturity shows right through your warped views and I hope you realize that. OK, that's about it, I'm done wasting my time. You have a lot of learning to do, but I get the feeling you don't care about that. Let this topic rest, it's not going anywhere.

This is a very good topic, this was fun to read.

My personal situation is that I am an agnostic. I simply cannot beleive that one powerful being created Earth and the universe. I simply cannot beleive in religon because many religons ignore ethics for crowd control/destruction. Christianity contradicts itself, Islam promotes violence, Wicca relates to gods in the most rediculous manner possible, as an always appearent being. Buhhdism is the only one I can see without any MAJOR fault to it.

Next question arises, If one of the religon is truly correct, then which one? Also, seeing as how most religons related to some kind of heaven or hell, if it was true that ALL religons were correct in some sense, then hell would have every "soul" that ever existed coming in at a constant rate. Beleiving in a religon of one kind is a severe sin in another meaning that all people have a one way ticket straight to hell.

Next topic, lets dabble in realism for a moment here. People have lives, and many people go to church. Many people pray to their god for forgiveness for things they have done wrong. REMEMBER WHEN I SAID PEOPLE HAVE LIVES? Anyone that does not go to church has a gurnateed trip straight to hell because there is always going to be that one person that forgets to pray on ther own, there will always be that one person in church that is there because they think they will be forgiven for misdeeds. Peoplewhom go to church and pray for forgiveness are the only people that even MINUTELY fit the criteria for "heaven", and half of them will always commit some other sin and forget to ask for forgiveness. Sure, people aren't perfect, but perfectionism is what religon is all about, you must be perfect in your beleifs and your moral status to make it to this "heaven". That is why there are WAY too few people that will ever make it into this "heaven" if it truly does exist, which in my honest opinion, definitely does not. The truth may be mistaken with the higher realms of the astral plane, but simply and plainly, the idea of a heaven is stupid, plain and simple. I can do the same thing but on a much smaller scale, I can probably convince a small child to do something rediclous in exchange for a lollipop. This is no different than what religon is trying to express.

Next, we have facts to discuess. YES TABLETS WERE DISCOVERED WITH ANCIENT WRITINGS. YES, WE HAVE FOUND BODIES. YES, WE HAVE FOUND PROOF OF A GREAT FLOOD. Guess what all of this comes down to? A NICE LONG STORYTELLING. You come up with proof Jesus Christ existed, ill give you a cookie. You prove to me he had all of his healing abilities, Ill give you two cookies. You prove to me he is the son of god and received his special abilities from such god and died taking all current sin with him to the afterlife, regardless of the fact we have many worse crimes and adultery all around us and prostitutes and drugs and assassinations and people spouting their corporate beleifs like a religon, then i will commit suicide.

ALL in all, this topic comes down to two final and stupid questions that crawls underneath everyones skin,WHY DO YOU BELEIVE(have faith in)GOD, and DOES GOD EXIST AND CAN YOU PROVE IT?

Anyone that has read this through, your commendable.

Good topic, have a  nice day[:D]

Although I cannot say there is no contradiction in Christianity and don't understand Wiccan at all, your statement that Islam promotes violence is wrong. You would know if you really want to learn about the fact. Is there any religion that really promotes violence? All the major religion that I see don't promote violence. There are people that use violence in the name of religion to make their action seems justified, but it is not the essence of the religion. True, religion has been used as a powerful tools by some to further their agenda but this does not means that the religion promote that stuff. Just because we're promoted with that kind of understanding by the media doesn't mean that it's true as we all have seen numerous time.  I must echo GTP that commenting without understanding or with skewed understanding, we would not be able to analyse the situation correctly. Taking half fact from here or there doesn't count. Also I understand that Buddhism is technically more of a philosophy than a religion.

Maybe everyone has diferent answer as to why they believe in God. As to proving God exist, Sublime sums it well in previous page. It would be nice the ask the opposite too. Why they don't believe in God (they probably have different reason too). It would also be interesting to prove that God doesn't exist. Human mind can reason everything, which way they want. So much for using the limited intellect to grasp all that.

Would this help any? I don't know...

Again, believe what you will. To you your belief and to me my belief. It's not my job to change anyone belief (and I can't). If you really want to believe, trust me you will.

This thread could go on forever (this way or the other). [;)]

Btw, don't confuse me with fact, learn what you can (and want).[:P]

Booyah!

Terry B's got a good point about violence. It's not the religions that promote the violence, it's the fanatics misinterpreting them that do.

After 9/11 and the whole "lets hate muslims" thing started to arise, local islamic leaders in my city came out with some interesting statements that seem to hold true throughout the world. The term "Jihad" or Holy War, is not a term recognised or in any way promoted by the Qaran. According to the Qaran, Allah detests the taking of a life by another human. Such violence as we see being committed by Hamas, Al Qaeda, and other such militant Islamic groups go against the very core of the teachings of Islam. The Crusades of Old England, the Spanish Inquisition and the witchhunters of America are all examples of where Christianity has gone horribly wrong in the name of God.

People true to the real Islamic faith are happy peace-loving people. Exactly the same can be said for Christians who are true to the word of Christ. Buddhists, Taoists, are also the same. The cores of all the world's religions are all aligned with love, understanding and tolerance. Kind of like the same guiding spiritual force has inspired all of them!
Its the human element inside religions that turn them nasty.

James.

A couple of Posts Back, I saw a reccuring Christian argument that bothers me Immensely.

"We don't follow the old testament anymore, a lot of it is not appropriate"

Well, correct me If im wrong but those teachings came from god did they not? Who is the catholic Church to tell you they don't apply anymore. Quite Frankly Im happy they dont because the God protrayed in the Old testament is an evil badass.

Now, I myself am not religious, I believe however that Jesus was around, and was a man who much like Buddha found inner peace, and laid down basics for humanity to live in harmony and prosperity. Unfortunately, After he died, when people came together there was a need for priests to lead the worship session. Then before you know it, you needed bishops who needed to control the priests, and slowly but surely the hierarchy right up to the pope that is the catholic Church was formed.

Where, in any biblical writing does it say that a pope should be appointed as the closest man to god ?

The church has done nothing but manipulate the teachings, cut out what they didnt like so that there power could grow. I admit that they´ve calmed down a lot in modern times, But it is an organisation!


-----------------------------------------

1. banning of any scientific discoveries that didnt fit in with their statements.
2. Addition of the law Priests can´t marry. Thats right they added that after the priest´s sons stopped following their fathers footsteps but still inherited their fathers land (the churches land).
3. forceful conversion, the inquisition.
4. popes who shortly after the fall of rome, had orgies and already back then a big intrest in little boys.

In case you wanted arguments that was.[:P]

i think the original question was missed completely...
what has caused you to believe in your religion?

my question is, why do we as human beings, feel the need to believe in something..?
is it re-assurance that everything is going to be alright after death..is something we can lean on for support, like some people lean on their friends or family when they have problems...why do some people turn to god for help, and not realise that they have the potential to fix things themselves?


Zandramas

one of the things i dislike most about the united states is how its first english colony was composed entirely of puritan christians. i would rank this event in the top 3 of the most important religious events of all time, for sure. those puritan beliefs have influenced the US in such a negative way..

when most children are brought up in families that aren't particularly religious or spiritual at all (most US families) they are almost *always* brought up some form of christian. it's like the US is christian by default by a good majority. people are raised not even to question god or the church. if my parents had taken me to church when i was young, i could bet you i wouldnt be posting this message right now. i would be going around saying 'be good and praise god or you'll go to hell' like most other christians. and my parents don't see anything wrong with this. they don't wonder why hell and satan were introduced so long after jesus had died. they don't even know the church used to teach reincarnation, and they *surely* don't realize that the concept of hell contradicts basic ideas about god (ie that he is infinitely forgiving). they aren't religious people, but they call themselves christians. why? probably for one or both of two main reasons.. the church has convinced them that they will in fact go to hell if they dont belief in god, or so people won't think negatively of them in their social life.

i believe this is why christianity has become so warped.. they set themselves up for it. people are raised ignorant of how things once were taught, and how the catholics have gone power-hungry over the past few hundred years. they are taught and preach things that don't make any sense at all when you think about them, but as long as they're praising god and buying themselves a ticket to heaven, it's all right. very few christians, deep down, worship god just because he's good. the church has just planted those seeds into our head.. "you'll go to hell..."...

if the puritans never came to america.. if a bunch of atheists found the USA instead, do you know how many christians would be in america? millions less. tens of millions less. i can say that with great certainty. christianity, islam, judaism.. they would all be down in numbers, and the people who actually chose the religion for themselves would be more involved and serious about it. the world might've been a whole lot more spiritual by now if it wasn't for the church. the astral dimensions and your etheric body might've been in texts book by now, instead of being dismissed as works of satan or such things by a majority of misinformed people who have heard of such 'occult' things.. the word 'occult' itself brings to mind many things that the church has done to sever spiritual development towards religions other than a monotheistic god-worshipping kind.

its getting late and ill probably regret whatever i was just rambling about in the morning.. er.. evening.. or noon or something.. its already almost 5 am over here.. and.. uh.... g'night... i guess..

quote:

---

You have never experienced the joy of christianity. How can you say stuff without any backround? I AM A CHRISTIAN. YOU ARE NOT. So wouldnt i know more about christianty than you?  

---

How can you say this?  Do you know everone on this forum personally?Have you even met anyone else on this forum?  For your information I was a mormon for 10 years.  I have read the bible more than once.  I used to be a very devout christain that was until i realized that the people of the church were close mindedb fools who tried to control the very soul of my being.

My 16 years of being a christian came to an end when I felt the churches I was in suffered the same kind of problems Warlockyoshi just described. I had another calling within me, from another spiritual source, and when I tried to follow this calling it usually ended up getting me in trouble with the church leaders.

I got lectured, I got prayed over on several occasions to be released from the "deceptions of the devil", all because I wasn't content to be one of their sheep. Some ministers seem to like the fact that their parishoners are like sheep, and they try to use scriptures to support that. To me being a sheep is being nothing more than a mindless follower.

This goes towards answering Warlockyoshi's original question, and Zandramas' (by the way, nice screen name, though I hope you don't start seeing stars under your skin too [;)]).

I did have a life changing experience. A couple of them actually, both from the same source. It is my experiences that have given foundation to my beliefs. I do not however, use my beliefs as an excuse for not taking responsibility for my own actions or my own problems.

We're NOT sheep, we do have the potential to fix things for ourselves, and I've always disliked people using religions or beliefs as a means to escape their responsibilities.

no_leaf_clover,
Its interesting what you say about the puritan founders of America.
Australians tend to be a lot more non-commital when it comes to religions. But then, Australia was first colonised by convicts!

James.

lol.. james, we have something in common: both of our countries were founded by people exiled from britain. turns out you got the better exiles, i guess [:P]

quote:

---

I got lectured, I got prayed over on several occasions to be released from the "deceptions of the devil", all because I wasn't content to be one of their sheep. Some ministers seem to like the fact that their parishoners are like sheep, and they try to use scriptures to support that. To me being a sheep is being nothing more than a mindless follower.

---

Thank you those are the exact reasons I have left the church.  I am glad to know that I am not the only one who believes this.

Whewwwwww.  I just read all seven pages! well maybe I cheated on the quotes from the bible..skimmed that one.  I avoided this topic because I just knew the insults were going to fly...lol..I am quite surprised that it wasn't too bad at all.  I have to admit that I thought everyone made good points, in almost every post I said.."oh, that makes sense, oh so does that"
The Satanism thing gives me the creeps though..but I don't know enough about that to really comment.  I do believe in God or atleast some higher being that has both Male and Female aspects I might add.

But the hell thing...hmmmmmm I'm not so sure if there is this fire and brimstone place where men with pitch forks poke you in the butt all day for eternity.. I think we make our own hell.  I like to think I have been a pretty good person for MOST of my life and will be in quite a happy place when I die....hey just had an epiphany (I don't mean the church festival celebrating the manifestation of Christ to the wise men of the East..but the irony is kinda funny..) if you believe your going to go to the hell that the bible talks about perhaps you will, if you believe there is no hell perhaps you wont...sounded better in my head.[:(]

I think I will take my husbands advise...He is always saying to me.."You are going to find out soon enough, why stress out over it now"  

Nay. [;)]

yes, nay... oh yes..

if you die and you believe you are going to hell, or even fear going to hell even though you've been telling yourself otherwise, chances are you'll wind up in an astral realm with a setting to fit your thoughts.

robert bruce says he thinks we linger around in the astral for a week or two on what little etheric energy we have left after physical death. then when the etheric energy runs out, we start ascending. during that period of time, the same rules apply to the astral as when you're still physically alive, i would presume.

so when you die, you'll wind up in an astral realm that suits your mindset. if you die and you realize you're dead, and you start thinking 'oh crap.. i hope i don't go to hell.. o.o.. i never asked for forgiveness before i died, and.. oh excrement O.O' ..then you'll wind up in an area exactly how you see hell, whether its people with pitch forks poking you in the butt, or clowns with machine guns.. o.O.. until your etheric energy runs out or you manage to get yourself out of there.

that explains why some people experience hell during nde's. some experience heaven, some just experience nice sensations that are not based on any religions..

and, you know, if the catholic church never introduced the concept of hell, this wouldn't be a problem. hell and satan have to be the most evil tools for conversion the church has ever came up with.. it's like converting through fear, and i'm sure it still causes millions to suffer in the astral every year. imagine if we had never heard of hell, and we knew the afterlife would be very pleasant, to say the least. then practically no one would have bad experiences..

quote:

---

if you die and you believe you are going to hell, or even fear going to hell even though you've been telling yourself otherwise, chances are you'll wind up in an astral realm with a setting to fit your thoughts.

---

I had an interesting chat with a friend of mine recently about this subject. She has experienced death and time spent in the "afterlife" until she was revived.

Her main comment was along the lines of  - if people who are bound by their religious code could only see what it is really like after death, they would not have such a narrow view as they do.

I like to listen to personal experiences such as this. To me they have more weight, more validity than a thousand pages of religious texts.

James.

You are right James.  All of the faith in the world will not help you, you can not truly know that something or somebody is real until you experience it yourself.  People can mock you and criticize you all that they want but there is no way that they can prove the validity of your statement so they criticize your beliefs to comfort themselves.  However, a belief system that makes absolutly no sense and which holds no water and furnishes no proof is a belief system that I refuse to follow.

Terry B
You are absoluty correct.  Islam itself does not promote violence.  The teachings of muhhamad were very much like the teachings of Jesus.  Love you neighbor and all of that bull honkey.  It is radical groups like the Al Quida and the Taliban that promote violence and bloodshed.

I've heard it said that everyone is an atheist, in one form or another.  

A Christian rejects every god except one (or three -depends on how you look at it   [^], but let's keep it simple and say 'one')
 
...the atheist simply believes in one less god than that...

You are using logic...  [;)]
To me, logic and religion are like oil and water...

I've never thought of it like that.  That is a very er.. funny way of looking at things but it makes perfect sense.  I am seriously considering odinism.  But what I will always have that urge for immorality so i guess you could call me an immortalitist as well.

An interesting phrase from quran... Can be related to the astral projection... What do you think?

Sorry folk, bear with me, I'm a non native speaker. So it's back to basics for me.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000.
 
worship
 
SYLLABICATION: wor·ship
PRONUNCIATION:   wûrshp
NOUN: 1a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 2. Ardent devotion; adoration. 3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.  
VERB: Inflected forms: wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships or wor·ships

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To honor and love as a deity. 2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See synonyms at revere1.  
INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To participate in religious rites of worship. 2. To perform an act of worship.  
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English worshipe, worthiness, honor, from Old English weorthscipe : weorth, worth; see worth1 + -scipe, -ship.
OTHER FORMS: worship·er, worship·per —NOUN

no

I am not against anyone who does worship god I was just wondering why?  No supreme life changing event has altered my beliefs.  I have no religion but I tend to lean towards satanism.  So yeah i was just wondering if anyone has proof of the existance of god.