So, in reading up on theories regarding the dreamworld most people here agree that the dream world and the astral world are the same or similar. And in fact everyone travels Astrally every night when they're dreaming. Which would lead me to conclude that our dreamworlds and actors are not created by our subconscious in the moment of the dream. I would argue that most of my dreams are in fact the creation of my subconscious. I think there's a part of us that is always creating because we are naturally creative beings. My dreams seem to to be created by me and serve one of the following functions:
1. Resolution of a past problem that cannot be resolved- the dream rewrites and desires to rewrite my past, especially situations where I messed up again and again.
2. Wish Fullfillment- Usually sexual dreams but sometimes having to do with playing high school sports for example because I never did.
3. Processing the Day Dreams- These dreams replay the day in strange ways sometimes and at other times in sensible ways.
4. Fantasy- lastly dreams that are fed by the imagination to create something else.
My dreams almost always fit in one of those categories. So it tells me these are personal places in my subconscious that I'm visiting not a pre existing place in the astral world.
How does the other side of the argument go? Are these dreamworlds in the Astral Plane and Are they already created? Were they created by our subconscious? Are the people in our dreams our creation and therefore only existing within the dream and not real so to speak. And if someone could answer the title questions too I'd appreciate it.
Thx
JT
Here's another concept to confuse you even more...
This physical reality we all exist in is also nothing more than just another astral/dream world. :)
Considering the above concept should also provide you with some answers to the questions you asked.
Xanth, that does confuse me a bit, but it also reminds me a bit of A Course In Miracles, The Matrix, Hinduism, Buddhism and of course Edgar Allan Poe.
I' m still confused about what you and others believe dreams to be exactly. I believe it was you or Szaxx who started this whole adventure by taking their dreams seriously and by not seeing a difference between the waking world and the dream world.
It still confuses me and if you could answer the question of who or what creates the world of the dream in your opinion it might help me understand your point of view.
Well, let's take this physical reality for example. Who 'creates' (or created and currently creates?) this physical reality?
We do. We all do. This is why this physical reality is so much more "stable" than what you would call a "dream". It has more consciousnesses currently in the process of experiencing and creating. There's an implication to that thought then... if there was no consciousnesses left here to experience, would this reality then cease to exist? :)
Who creates the world which you find yourself dreaming in? Well, that'll be whatever consciousnesses are there currently. You don't have to actively be aware of any other consciousnesses presence though. It's all in your interpretation of your experience. Your interpretation of your experience *IS* what you experience.
In the end... what creates what you experience? You do. I do. We all do.
Ok, that makes more sense, for some reason Ive never thought of their being more than one consciousness in my dream. But than again I've seen friends and pets who have passed on in my dreams except those dreams seemed more physical.
Thanks for the clarification.
Sometimes my dreams seem to personal and private to be shared but who knows. Also in the in between states between waking and sleeping, I notice what Im seeing is thought reactive and see crazy vivid images flash before me. Which can lead me to believe, I'm creating my own dreams.
Quote from: Justintime on April 14, 2015, 21:32:08Are these dreamworlds in the Astral Plane and Are they already created?
Some are created for your pleasure or learning in so-called simulations. You create yourself in the Astral too. So there is not really a contradiction between creating with your subconscious and creation on the Astral planes. Kurt Leland, a pro experiencer and author, calls it the dreamzone and I find this interesting text helpful:
http://www.kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/2006/99-recognizing-simulations-astral-plane
8-)
Thanks for the response Volgerle and for the link. And that makes sense that our subconscious creates in the Astral too. I'll check out that text and Kurt Leland, this is the first time I've heard of him.
I will reinforce what Volgerie is telling you. It probably gets much more complicated than many of us can explain but in the Leland/classical occult version, the Astral can be initially divided into two regions: the Personal Astral (which is heavily constructed through and influenced by your subconscious, beginning with your Personal Dreamspace) and then the Collective Astral which is the Common Space within the Astral and generally considered the beginning areas of the Afterlife. In the Personal Dreamspace we experience our usual dreams. With some cognitive development towards OBEs, we progress to Tests and then Simulations somewhere in between our Personal Dreamspace and the Collective areas. I'm not completely sure but this has been my experience. I've been allowed some entrances into higher level experiences, but not enough to render any particular judgment onto these.
Ultimately, these descriptions are just some common labels. You will have to experience these same things and find a way to categorize them for yourself. Eventually you will need to abandon the initial labels and find new ones, only to abandon those later on; eventually, you abandon labels altogether. Kind of All is one, One is All.
Good questions.
It appears that the you within exists in many different ways. Solid and tied to a body in this physical world, at sleep times, this bond is broken and you're free to experience so much more.
Dreams as in the ones that you simply experience with the story line playing out, look like your subconcious has control. These require interpretation as they can sort out the daily routine emotional side quite well. You wake feeling refreshed wondering what it's all about, later things click into place and the stress has gone (mostly).
They also give some insight to another occurrence of what to do next time you're in a similar position.
This goes unnoticed most often as it programs an instinctive reaction. Sometimes you wake thinking what was that all about? These are possibly the subconscious tidying itself with new learning and restructuring your mindset into integrating that learned.
The lucids are generally amazing, you have a holiday of fun at your disposal. Where they come from doesn't matter during the experience. You never question this side of it. Its clear you have control and a strong desire to break free from physical world limitations to do whatever. These appear to be part of you that's exercising your adventurous side. Anything is possible yet we still stay just outside of the physical world sensations. To clear your mind at this point stops the dream and puts you in the 3D blackness. A thought of far more than what the physical can offer can be a totally exhilarating experience you'll treasure forever. This is a projection of your conscious self and what this site is all about.
Above the dream states is where a much wilder experience can take place. The astral proper onced opened fully will give your mind some explosive experiences, these can be in a purely mental frame of conscious awareness where you have no body at all. You are basically a point of awareness that's your personality and in essence, this is the real you, with some connection to a thought only existence. Words fail here as there's nothing to itemise or label. Its rare and unique to experience. The only time you may be aware of this self, this 'I' that you are, I can think of, is when your body is under extreme stress. A heart attack or so much pain you pass out from the physical viewpoint. From the inside viewpoint you are who you are in a complete blackness to start with and it feels totally blissful. From personal experience, you actually think you've died. This point awareness is what you project and a lesser complete version of self is what you project when you enter the 3D blackness.
There's no way of suggesting if we or something else created it. This 'you within' is unbelievably limited in the physical.
As Xanth has said, everything is a projection, get beyond the limitations and fears from the physical and open yourself to everything, become one and another form of existence starts to show itself to you. A closeness to God for some fits here, a connection with the source for others. Once 'visited' you never want to return.
That's the number one experience to go for. Its an emotional ride like nothing this planet can offer, it exists and so few have experienced it.
Perhaps one day you'll get an experience and look back at your initial question.
I had to chuckle as no words can start to explain the peak I've achieved in the half century of experiencing the NP and its wares.
I hope you have enough experience to relate to the weird and wonderful side far, far away from the physical.