Robert Waggoner, author of Lucid Dreaming (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/robert_waggoner_lucid_dreaming-t33453.0.html) on the subject of LD is not OBE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuyDBH_6c6E&feature=related
Somewhere around 1:25, Waggoner even makes a reference to Monroe on this issue.
Interesting that one more of the big authors, beside Buhlman, makes this reflection.
Oh, Pauli2. You are so naive... :roll:
Here's a more reliable source:
http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
An even more reliable source...enter the OOBE-state yourself and draw your own conclusions. There is no solid evidence separating the two apart from the manner in which they are entered. Both are products of REM sleep. They might as well be the same thing which is reflected on mental states of the brain.
Any claims that they are separate phenomena is pure postulation. Besides, they are merely descriptive terms for the sake of communication.
So..
OBE: Solid environment, waking awareness passes through 'transitory state'
LD: Manipulation-friendly environment, waking awareness occurs within dream
The problem is the few times I've become aware within a dream they were solid environments... just as stable, if not moreso, than my OBE's. Also, this guy is telling me I can't manipulate the environment once I exit the vibe state? I don't believe that. If there's a prevalence of characteristics that belong to one but occur in another, it's not a valuable distinction. Just my 2 cents... though I do agree that generally, OBE= awareness comes before experience (vibes or void) and LD = awareness comes after.
QuoteAlso, this guy is telling me I can't manipulate the environment once I exit the vibe state? I don't believe that.
:-D
I don't believe this either. I've separated after having the vibes and the environment, although extremely hyper-real, was malleable and changed like a dream. For instance, I shifted my attention from a corner of the room, and, when I looked back, it was different. The behaviour of the reality there has more to do with quantum logic than our logic. Nevertheless, no matter how vague or how vivid it seems, it is metaphysical in nature...it's the world of thoughts...dreams...imagination...
The vagueness or the vividness is reliant on the degree of focus that we have. Simple.
^^ But that's the impression you give me, though... :|
For someone to open a thread called "LDs are not OBEs", which is a wild claim, and, on top of that say: "Interesting that one more of the big authors, beside Buhlman, makes this reflection." - I mean...come on!
I've had hundreds of both and in my opinion they are the same. I wonder if many of these authors have experience with both or are just parroting what has been said before.
If you have a wake-induced lucid dream it's identical to an OOBE except you skip the room phase and may feel like you're sinking instead of rising. With both you may hear a click/pop and (for the first few years) the vibrations and odd sounds in the room.
Even Buhlman thinks our astral body separates from the physical when we sleep (as I do to) so in effect all dreaming states are OOB, we just bring our waking consciousness with us when we're having a LD or OOBE.
QuoteAny claims that they are separate phenomena is pure postulation. Besides, they are merely descriptive terms for the sake of communication.
Postulate away!, I say. I also agree with the idea behind the subject. I have experienced plenty of LD's and plenty of conscious exit OBEs and I gotta say... they do have very notable and qualitatively different characteristics. I think we need a better vocabulary for this. Chicken and beef are both meat but they are very different. It is not so wild a claim to observe that they are different.
Quote from: Jilt on May 28, 2011, 12:50:25
I've had hundreds of both and in my opinion they are the same. I wonder if many of these authors have experience with both or are just parroting what has been said before.
Even Buhlman thinks our astral body separates from the physical when we sleep (as I do to) so in effect all dreaming states are OOB, we just bring our waking consciousness with us when we're having a LD or OOBE.
Hmm...
Here is a video with Buhlman. Listen to the 3 minutes around 38:15 - 41:15.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0SNa68gKw
Buhlman says that LD and OBE are connected to each other, but they are
not the same. Though, an LD can be
upgraded to an OBE.
An OBE is something different. You are Out-Of-Body. Not in a dream.
OBE. You are hovering a few inches from your physical body.
Does Buhlman's
energy shift ring false to you?
Quote from: Summerlander on May 28, 2011, 11:46:44
Oh, Pauli2. You are so naive... :roll:
Nono, he's allowed to believe whatever he wants. It doesn't make him naive... it makes him in a disagreement with you. That's all. :)
Meanwhile, Summerlander, you and I can believe something else. :)
*YOU* and *I* just see things differently... we also see things through our own experiences, and not based solely around someone elses.
OK, I listened to this Buhlman segment but I'm still not convinced they are different (however, I tend to have WILDs so there may be a different dynamic with those because I'm not waking up within the dream, I never lose consciousness like an OOBE).
I listened to Buhlman yesterday in another video and he said that when we dream (any kind of dream) we separate from the physical body into an astral body so my natural conclusion is all these experiences are OOB (however, I'm open to the idea that we generate an etheric body from the astral body that's even finer as we go into these different dimensions but that can still be done from the classic OOB or WILD state).
It's splitting hairs and I'm not sure why I keep responding to this question - probably because I thought the subject line was too provocative not to.
Quote from: Jilt on May 28, 2011, 12:50:25
I've had hundreds of both and in my opinion they are the same. I wonder if many of these authors have experience with both or are just parroting what has been said before.
They're parrots! :-D
Quote from: Rudolph on May 28, 2011, 12:52:07
Chicken and beef are both meat but they are very different. It is not so wild a claim to observe that they are different.
Absolutely! Different types of meat! And the differences I've seen is that they both have different tasty entrances. But they are still just meat. LDs, for example, skip the abode replica which is unconsciously created from your expectation in OOBEs. However, they are both dissociative from the physical body in the sense that you are not aware of being in the body in the majority of cases. Even in vague dreams you get the awareness of being
somewhere else other than the physical body.
I'd also like to say that both LDs and OOBEs can be as vague and as hyper-real as each other. In fact, I've even had non-lucid dreams that were so vivid and so seemingly real in quality that I thought I was actually somewhere physical. Non-lucid dreams have also proved to be quite capable of showing signs of precognition or even telepathy.
So, you see people, it is just a matter of disassociating from the body and perceiving that which remains unseen most of the time. It is actually us that have various modes of perceiving in those altered states. We have varying degrees of focus and awareness. The data itself, which we receive, remains what it is. For instance, when we say "lucid dream" we are actually wrong. Why is it an erroneous statement? Because we are the ones that are lucid...NOT the "dream". It's like a car crashing into another and the driver of the car that was hit says "He hit me". The fact of the matter is that the person didn't get hit...it was the car. :roll:
In www.obe4u.com we merely call it "the Phase State". It is synonymous with (OOBEs/AP/LDs).
Quotethey are both dissociative from the physical body
Right. Therein lies the problem. Just falling asleep might even qualify as an oobe. The term is too broad.
We need a more descriptive term like maybe:
Conscious Waking Awareness Projection -- CWAP
:wink:
Now that I agree with! ^^
The "OOBE" term is indeed too broad. But then again so is the term "Phase State", but that doesn't stop Michael Raduga from using it!
I don't agree with the new name you came up with though. It sounds naff. :-D
I agree, it sounds completely cwap.
well, 'conscious' and 'waking' could be considered redundant so one letter could be eliminated and we get CAP or WAP but neither sounds as cool as OOBE (as long as it is pronounced 'ooobeee').
Quote from: Rudolph on May 28, 2011, 16:47:37
Right. Therein lies the problem. Just falling asleep might even qualify as an oobe. The term is too broad.
You inadvertently hit the nail on the head.
The problem is with the term is that it's pigeonholed everyone's perception EVER SINCE Robert Monroe coined it back in the 50s/60s.
In my opinion, it really is JUST THAT SIMPLE. "Just falling asleep" *IS* a projection of consciousness (I refuse to use the term OBE anymore).
What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)
Start using it and see how popular it becomes. :-D
Quote from: Jarrod on May 29, 2011, 12:58:15
What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)
The Acronym should be easier to pronounce if you want it to become popular. How about CoNPEx? :D
Quote from: Jarrod on May 29, 2011, 12:58:15
What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)
Hee hee it sounds like corn-pee. :lol:
Quote from: Jarrod on May 29, 2011, 12:58:15
What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)
As long as we pronounce it 'snippy' that is pretty good.
But it still does not delineate the LD vs OBE experience... in the "going unconscious then getting more conscious spontaneously outside of my conscious control" type sense, versus the "I am now fully conscious (at least I think I am) and now I am moving outside my body -- there, now I am out" type thing....
Quite the dilemma... but I think we're up to it....
We have the technology....
Jarrod, with a WILD (wake-induced lucid dream) you never lose consciousness so in that way it is similar to an OOBE. Next time you feel like you're ready to separate, don't try to but retain consciousness by focusing your vision at your third eye and you'll go directly to the 3D black world (just skipping the room phase).
I like "Conscious Non-Physical Experience" by the way. Sums it all up quite nicely. Getting it down to one word would be ideal so the terms phasing, projecting, going astral work too.
When you say focus your vision at your third eye do you mean some imagined point in front of you and slightly up or actually trying to point your eyes at your forehead...cuz that kind of hurts?
I'll start using CNPE "snippy" in my posts and replies and see if it catches on. :)
Quote from: Jarrod on May 29, 2011, 21:52:10
When you say focus your vision at your third eye do you mean some imagined point in front of you and slightly up or actually trying to point your eyes at your forehead...cuz that kind of hurts?
Try this Jarrod.
Take your thumb and press it on the spot where you think your third eye location is.
Remember and memorize the sensation where it happens.
Then, remove your thumb and try to duplicate that feeling without it there.
That will be you focusing your "vision" at your third eye. :)
It has nothing to do with your physical eyes. ;)
Actually, I focus my physical eyes AND my awareness at the third eye. Here's a little more on how it's traditionally done from an online source:
"Concentrate on the middle of your forehead around the area which is a few centimeters above the middle of your eyes.
Keep your eyes closed and draw both of your eyes towards this center point of 3rd eye. I mean just look upwards with your eyes closed . Focus your closed eyes at 20-25 degrees above just at the center of the forehead (at the place of third eye.) Now slowly at about two-second interval, start counting in your mind backward from one hundred to one (that is 100,99,98,97....and so on). As you do it, keep your eyes centered towards the third eye."
For more go to: http://www.meditationiseasy.com/mCorner/techniques/trataka.htm
QuoteTry this Jarrod.
Take your thumb and press it on the spot where you think your third eye location is.
Remember and memorize the sensation where it happens.
Then, remove your thumb and try to duplicate that feeling without it there.
That will be you focusing your "vision" at your third eye.
It has nothing to do with your physical eyes.
Robert Bruce's awareness targeting technique. Over the past several months I've worked my way up to a full body circuit, though I still don't include the arms. I have to go slow to feel the energy and along my spine I only feel it sometimes. When I get to my forehead I brush my point of tactile awareness up and down over where I think the third eye is and I can feel the sensation pretty well. So you focus on a static point of tactile awareness as a means to keep you lucid for phasing? Does it actually make a difference where the point of focus is? I'm not really sure how the third eye chakra correlates to CNPEs.
I have been following this thread and I agree with Summerlander. I have had a few OOBEs. Some of them because of my lucid dreams. I cannot lucid dream. Whenever I do it (not too much into lucid dreaming though), I get in Sleep paralysis because I feel I do not have enough space (to think) in the dream and I need to wake up. I usually wake up in SP and then just "get out". I also believe the separation in OOBEs is just an illusion. Once you are in SP, you are already out, or as obe4u says, in the phase.
I know they seem to be totally different, but the only thing that makes it this different is the level of awareness. The awarer you are the better the dream/OBE gets. Hasn't it ever happened to you to have a very controlled dream but you still could not call it a lucid dream because you did not know you were dreaming? Well, if you had noticed it was a dream and kept asking questions you'd have waken up OR entered SP. You can have OOBEs which later become dreams or you can have dreams which later turn into OOBEs.
QuoteYou can have OOBEs which later become dreams or you can have dreams which later turn into OOBEs.
Bingo, Ssergiu! :-D
Quote from: Jarrod on May 30, 2011, 11:49:25
So you focus on a static point of tactile awareness as a means to keep you lucid for phasing? Does it actually make a difference where the point of focus is? I'm not really sure how the third eye chakra correlates to CNPEs.
For me it's not critical to look up at the third eye area with my physical eyes but to steadily focus on a point forward in the blackness when I feel myself starting to go to sleep. That keeps me awake enough (but not too awake) and works like a charm every time. I also try to put all my awareness in the center of my head which is another old meditation technique but it really does work and adds to the stability/lucidity.
If you want to experience an OOBE rather than a WILD (same thing in my book), I add the rope climbing technique (my favorite) or if I'm lazy, I gently lift my hand just a little under a sheet and when I don't feel the sheet I know my astral hand is free and I'm ready to completely lift out.
I have a WILD/OOBE nearly every morning using these techniques and the more you have, the easier it becomes. Enjoy.
Quote from: Ssergiu on May 30, 2011, 12:46:33
I cannot lucid dream. Whenever I do it (not too much into lucid dreaming though), I get in Sleep paralysis because I feel I do not have enough space (to think) in the dream and I need to wake up.
Could u please define Sleep Paralysis (SP), because I've had very different success with OBE from SP. I've never gone from LD to SP.
What is SP to you? How does it appear to you? Please, describe your SP state.
In my first Sleep paralysis experience I could feel the inability and the desire to move. I just could not move at all as my body is paralyzed. I also used to feel "overcrowded" just like I did not have enough space in my body. - This is what SP feels/ used to feel to me. It should be pretty similar to everyone.
Now, I hardly feel that inability and desire to move. When I enter SP, I just literally start with the vibrations. However, I know my body is paralyzed and in SP, but it just does not feel as it used to. I just feel vibrations in my entire body or sometimes just in my head.
Ok, thanks. I just wake up in SP, so I've never felt any vibrations in SP. I don't have any urge to move either.
I've never experienced sleep paralysis. I've had all kinds of vibrations and strange sensations and some spontaneous projections, but I've never not been able to move my body if I wanted to. I can tell when it's entering sleep mode; all the functions switch over to automatic and I'm not as aware of my body in general, but I can snap out at a moment's notice and get up quickly.
Quote from: Pauli2 on May 31, 2011, 10:00:43
Ok, thanks. I just wake up in SP, so I've never felt any vibrations in SP. I don't have any urge to move either.
Good! Try to project from there. You are already out.
Quote from: Ssergiu on May 31, 2011, 11:21:21
Good! Try to project from there. You are already out.
I've done so only 2, perhaps 3 times, but lost lucidity fast. I have also had SP when I've tried and failed to exit, so SP is no guarantee for OBE, at least not for me.
Xanth once gave me a very good advice. Ask yourself questions. Who you are, what you are doing etc. It will improve your lucidity.
Also, try to experience more SP's after you attempt to separate. I think I had 10 SP's before I said I wanted to separate. After you feel you have gotten the hang of it, then you can go and separate. :-D
hehe, my SPs are not controlled, and comes very randomly and with quite some time apart. :)
But I'm working on it. :)
---
One interesting thing. I'm reading Sylvan Muldoon's Astral Projection book from 1929. He got
so deep into SP that he couldn't even open his eyes. I've always been able to open my eyes
and move them around, while in SP. The rest of me is paralyzed, though.
Perhaps there exists different kinds of SP?
Maybe it isn't your physical eyes you're moving around. When I "see" while still in my physical body, it feels like my eyes are wide open when they aren't. There's been more than a few times where I opened them to prove to myself they were closed.
There are not different kinds of SP. There are different perceptions of SP. :-D
Maybe you actually opened your "astral" eyes and you never knew.
Hi,
I read that book in the early seventies.
Understand it, its good info. At that time you said nothing to anyone about AP. It was my bible. Practice makes perfect. If you just think 'one day it'll happen' it will, sooner than you know. Stop trying too hard, its a totally different concept of movement to being awake. Its simply controlled by your thoughts. Accept it will happen, and it will.
When it happens move from your physical body at least 40 feet. Its much easier this way. You'll understand this soon.
Everyones helping you and you're so close.
Best of luck.
Interestingly enough Robert Peterson also thinks that LDs are different from OBEs:
http://www.robertpeterson.org/obe-vs-lucid.html
Which means that three of the great authors are on the same line; Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson.
Pay special attention to Peterson's arguments below his table chart. For example his observation
on astral sex.
OBE's contain real people. LD's dont.
I could say more but I've said it all before.
I would shred this guy's comparison chart but the Dean Walker guy further down the page said everything I would've. The bit where you aren't in REM sleep if you OBE is interesting though... if this is verified it's the only clear difference between the two.
The chart comparison is instructive. The observations are mostly consistent with my experience.
From what I am seeing on various forums, it seems that there are a LOT of OBEers who can consciously project but then their experience almost instantly degrades into an LD.
It seems like some are trying to say that all who walk around with their eyes open are awake. But 'awake' is obviously a general term applied to a wide variety of states of awareness.
LDs are not the same as a conscious OBE.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 04, 2011, 10:11:10
From what I am seeing on various forums, it seems that there are a LOT of OBEers who can consciously project but then their experience almost instantly degrades into an LD.
Almost instantly degrades? That's a nifty way of getting around the fact that "LD characteristics" are prevalent in a lot of OBE experiences.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 04, 2011, 10:11:10
It seems like some are trying to say that all who walk around with their eyes open are awake. But 'awake' is obviously a general term applied to a wide variety of states of awareness.
All the more reason to not divide a wide variety of states into two flimsy categories that fail to have one exclusive characteristic among them.
I fall into the category of those who's RTZ projections turn into LD's. Took me the best part of a year to figure out what was happening. I used to just assume that the RTZ was a very unstable place. I cant stay in it long enough to do anything intersesting. I can stay in the astral for much longer though.
I agree with the flimsy categories comment though. Sometimes I'm not sure which journal to put my experieces in.
Quote from: Astral316 on June 04, 2011, 10:57:23All the more reason to not divide a wide variety of states into two flimsy categories that fail to have one exclusive characteristic among them.
I can absolutely agree. And even if we do the category thing, let's not forget that these categories are NOT discrete separate units but that there is a contiuum.
As regards the criteria to determine on which point in the contiuum I was on, I, personally, (at least as I saw it a few months ago), I have a matrix or x/y-chart where I put only 2 criteria on one axis (or row and column) each :
lucidity and
privacyLook at it this way (hey, and mind that it's an analogy guys, don't take it too literally):
In a dream you're sitting self-absorbed (non-lucid) in your own room busy with yourself and your projections. You are not really aware of your surroundings (room), just busy with your thought forms.
In a lucid dream you are still in your "private" thought form projection area, but you run around in the house using all rooms, and you are aware of your surroundings (rooms, house) as you are (more lucid), but let's not forget that lucidity also takes place in up- and down-swings on a continuum (not discrete steps) - well, at least for me.
In an OBE or AP, however, you leave your house and access the public area, sometimes you go "farther out" leave the city, country, planet, etc (means: different and/or "higher" planes / focus levels).
So the diagram/matrix with two measurements puts the 3 categories the following way:
dream high on privacy and low on lucidity,
lucid dream middle to high on lucidity and middle on privacy,
AP high (or sometimes only middle?) on lucidity and low on privacy
As said, they are on a chart / matrix table without discrete steps. It's a flow.
Quote from: blis on June 04, 2011, 09:20:44
OBE's contain real people. LD's dont.
Well, from my experience I cannot agree anymore to this (I still would have done so some time ago). I get the feeling and came to the conclusion recently, if you open yourself to the possibilites of dream programming, group/shared dream experiments and dream telepathy, that more happens in "normal" (non-lucid) dreams, than you one think (in mainstream view). This means that you can have 'visitors' (or be a visitor) in your "room" / in dreams as well as lucid dreams (your "house").
I have the impression that in my dreams within the last year or so I also met some 'real' people that can well be distinguished from those shady 'life-less' dream characters I normally 'interact' with.
So, to stick to my analogy: It is possible that people enter your "house" (lucid dream) or even "room" (dream) and vice versa (I have entered the dream world of others, too, as it seems).
All of this is, of course a personal obeservation and it can of course be true in my case. If you are convinced that in dreams and what you define as lucid dreams you do not meet 'real' people then it might indeed be this way, I cannot judge, but how can we know for sure anyway about this?
So for me, as a consequence, I came to drop the 'privacy/public access' category entirely now. Thus I do the same approach as Kurt Leland does in his books: it is all adventures in consciousness (I call them lucidventures or lucadventures) with differing degrees (on a continuum!) of lucidty, which has to do with one's own personal learning of skills, abilities and sense development.
just my 2.5 cents.
Quote from: Volgerle on June 04, 2011, 14:11:20So for me, as a consequence, I came to drop the 'privacy/public access' category entirely now. Thus I do the same approach as Kurt Leland does in his books: it is all adventures in consciousness (I call them lucidventures or lucadventures) with differing degrees (on a continuum!) of lucidty, which has to do with one's own personal learning of skills, abilities and sense development.
I've doubted the privacy/public category for a long time (why I've never cared for Frank's F2/F3.) The concept is a meshing of two different thought processes that contradict each other at their core... isolated subconscious of psychology vs. collective conscious of metaphysics. I believe the illusion of privacy exists because we gravitate towards the familiar in the physical while in the non-physical... etheric plane, parallel worlds where you're with friends/family/familiar locations, personal memories, etc. Obviously someone who doesn't have your memory of Event X won't experience Event X in a dream/OBE. But it's not because they can't, it's because they have no mental attachment and therefore no viable pathway.
When it comes to AP/OBE vs. LD... I could accept them as part of a continuum of 'level of awareness' where LD is lukewarm and AP/OBE is boiling hot. I could accept them as different ways to get waking awareness into the non-physical (LD= comes after entry into non-physical, AP/OBE= comes before entry into non-physical.) But I can't accept them as experiences that are different on a metaphysical level.
I like your way of looking at it Volgerie.
We may actually agree on the dream point. Most of my "dream" experiences I wouldnt actually call dreams. They seem to fall between categories. I would have called them dreams a few years ago but now I can recognise when scenarios are coming from a guide.
I guess I've just got a narrower definition of the word dream than most. We've got the word so I figure we might as well use it for a specific thing.
QuoteI guess I've just got a narrower definition of the word dream than most. We've got the word so I figure we might as well use it for a specific thing.
Absolutely! In fact, we need more words. We probably need as many words for the various dream states as the Eskimos have for snow.
Trying to say that the different words refer to the same thing is not helpful, imo.
Hi All,
So how much lucidity do you categorise as a dream? The reason is in a ld I can create any scenario and have total control of everything. The only prerequisite I need is to be aware in the dream of the fact that I'm dreaming. Hope that makes sense?
If this is an ap on some level then for many years I've fooled myself its just a dream.
The fascination increases.
Anything that manifests in the moment and does not persist in a way that would be present in a future visit or would not be corroborated by a third party wandering through... I would classify more as an LD.
But this can be very complicated because I was in one OBE where I was flying over beautiful countryside at sunrise and I saw some movement below and swooped in for a closer look and saw two wolves actively engaged in separating a mother doe from her fawn and I knew the outcome was pretty much a done deal. But who else could or would corroborate this event?
I think experience with hard astral regions with aspects to them that persist would clarify this. IMO, there are aspects of the astral realm that are not completely illusory. Different people can come by at different times and see the same thing.
I think the AP into an LD is very useful in pursuing personal growth and is not to be discounted.
But lumping full conscious awareness of Higher realms in with LD is not constructive if you ask me.
Personally, I don't believe what most people refer to as a "dream" is even a real, objective experience.
A "dream" is nothing more than a projection of an unconsciously aware nature.
Honestly speaking, that could be entirely what this Physical Reality "waking life" is. :)
Quote from: Xanth on June 06, 2011, 10:25:59
Personally, I don't believe what most people refer to as a "dream" is even a real, objective experience.
Most people don't think a "dream" is a real, objective experience.
:?
In fact I can't think of anyone who has said that.
Quote from: Rudolph on June 06, 2011, 11:17:35
Most people don't think a "dream" is a real, objective experience.
:?
In fact I can't think of anyone who has said that.
Well, not even that really.
It's the average idea of what a "dream" is to people.
I know exactly where Xanth is coming from and he is right. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I posted what I did in this link:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/phasing_or_aping-t34253.0.html
Quote from: Summerlander on June 08, 2011, 08:53:57
I know exactly where Xanth is coming from and he is right. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I posted what I did in this link:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/phasing_or_aping-t34253.0.html
Well, thank you... but, I would like to point out that I'm really neither right nor wrong... you just agree with me. :)
Quote from: Xanth on June 08, 2011, 10:20:09
Well, thank you... but, I would like to point out that I'm really neither right nor wrong... you just agree with me. :)
I agree with you on this. :-D
I found an interesting article which seems to be written by the late
David Scott Rogo (1950 - 1990), author of Leaving the Body.
The article's is in Lucidity Letter 4(2), December, 1985, p. 43 (http://www.spiritwatch.ca/LL%204.2/Out%20of%20body%20experiencesas%20lucid%20dreams-Rogo.htm).
One interesting observation is:
"...the most consistent finding about the lucid dream is that it occurs within
the context of normal Stage 1 REM sleep. The only exception to this rule is
that some lucid dreams may occur during sleep onset...
...several psychophysiological studies of gifted OBE subjects have in fact been
made. The results indicate that OBEs emerge from a wide variety of brain states,
with no consistency present between the EEG records from one subject to another.
...Gabbard and Twemlow demonstrates that OBEs do not necessarily occur during
clearly-defined sleep. This fact alone should keep us from facilely equating OBEs
with lucid dreams."
Also I should point out that my link to Robert Peterson contained a table from the last
two specialists in the quote above.
So now we have at least 6 skilled persons in this area of OBE studies who describe various
details which indicates that LDs are not OBEs: Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow
and Scott Rogo.
^ How did the researchers determine whether test subjects were having an LD or OBE enough to conclude patterns in brain activity?
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 10, 2011, 08:55:32
I found an interesting article which seems to be written by the late
David Scott Rogo (1950 - 1990), author of Leaving the Body.
The article's is in Lucidity Letter 4(2), December, 1985, p. 43 (http://www.spiritwatch.ca/LL%204.2/Out%20of%20body%20experiencesas%20lucid%20dreams-Rogo.htm).
One interesting observation is:
"...the most consistent finding about the lucid dream is that it occurs within
the context of normal Stage 1 REM sleep. The only exception to this rule is
that some lucid dreams may occur during sleep onset...
...several psychophysiological studies of gifted OBE subjects have in fact been
made. The results indicate that OBEs emerge from a wide variety of brain states,
with no consistency present between the EEG records from one subject to another.
...Gabbard and Twemlow demonstrates that OBEs do not necessarily occur during
clearly-defined sleep. This fact alone should keep us from facilely equating OBEs
with lucid dreams."
Also I should point out that my link to Robert Peterson contained a table from the last
two specialists in the quote above.
So now we have at least 6 skilled persons in this area of OBE studies who describe various
details which indicates that LDs are not OBEs: Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow
and Scott Rogo.
You're ignoring (deliberately, mind you) that it doesn't prove the contrary either. It doesn't even suggest it actually. It just says, hey, there are different brain waves showing. That's completely meaningless.
Actually, I could just as easily conclude from their experiments that it DOES prove that OBEs and LDs are the same thing by equating their brain activity with conscious awareness during the experience. See what I did there? I made a completely unprovable, random hypothesis just like they did. THIS IS FUN!
While however, quite CLEARLY, through
my own experiences I
know that their hypothesis is false. So meh.
Quote^ How did the researchers determine whether test subjects were having an LD or OBE enough to conclude patterns in brain activity?
I'd also like a response to that question. :)
Who cares? Just call your LD an LD if you're more comfortable with that. The worst that can happen is you get fined by the astral police and have to go to astral court.
QuoteYou're ignoring (deliberately, mind you) that it doesn't prove the contrary either. It doesn't even suggest it actually. It just says, hey, there are different brain waves showing. That's completely meaningless.
Actually, I could just as easily conclude from their experiments that it DOES prove that OBEs and LDs are the same thing by equating their brain activity with conscious awareness during the experience. See what I did there? I made a completely unprovable, random hypothesis just like they did. THIS IS FUN!
He has not claimed to have "proof". Disagreeing with something no one has said is another common deceptive semantic trick that I see on these forums. Also to state, "that it doesn't prove the contrary" reveals a lack of even an elementary grasp of logic because once again (don't tell me you've never heard this before), 'you can't prove a negative'.
Yes it does say, "there are different brain waves showing". But to claim "that's completely meaningless" is wrong. It is clearly meaningful. A hypothesis is stated and it is backed up with empirical evidence.
Glad to see you're having fun.
Is it possible that this has more to do with the way in which the non-physical was entered (ie. consciously vs. becoming lucid after) then it does about the nature of the experience itself? I mean the only thing this is evidence of is that people are in REM sleep when they're dreaming (already known) and stay in that stage after having gone "out of body."
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 10, 2011, 08:55:32
I found an interesting article which seems to be written by the late
David Scott Rogo (1950 - 1990), author of Leaving the Body.
The article's is in Lucidity Letter 4(2), December, 1985, p. 43 (http://www.spiritwatch.ca/LL%204.2/Out%20of%20body%20experiencesas%20lucid%20dreams-Rogo.htm).
One interesting observation is:
"...the most consistent finding about the lucid dream is that it occurs within
the context of normal Stage 1 REM sleep. The only exception to this rule is
that some lucid dreams may occur during sleep onset...
...several psychophysiological studies of gifted OBE subjects have in fact been
made. The results indicate that OBEs emerge from a wide variety of brain states,
with no consistency present between the EEG records from one subject to another.
...Gabbard and Twemlow demonstrates that OBEs do not necessarily occur during
clearly-defined sleep. This fact alone should keep us from facilely equating OBEs
with lucid dreams."
Also I should point out that my link to Robert Peterson contained a table from the last
two specialists in the quote above.
So now we have at least 6 skilled persons in this area of OBE studies who describe various
details which indicates that LDs are not OBEs: Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow
and Scott Rogo.
You are basing your argument on so\ething you don't understand. People also hallucinate during waking states, Pauli2. It doesn't mean anything. A person can also display rapid eye movement after a dose of exogenous DMT whilst brain waves were on beta mode at the time. Remember, REM is another term we came up with for labelling a specific sleep stage. The fact of the matter is that people constantly dream, even in the waking state one can partially become aware of dreaming (daydreaming). Do you know why? Because the mind is active most of the time, because thoughts are generaated most of the time. Hell, we even dream during delta sleep! Oh yes we do! As for OOBEs...don't believe every piece of bullsnot you find...like vivid dreams, most OOBEs occur in REM.
Some of you probably know Stephen LaBerge, Ph. D. The author of Lucid Dreaming
and two (or three) more books (at least one co-authored).
In his second book, LaBerge wrote that OBEs are a form of dream, as he doesn't
believe in any non-physical "astral" phenomena. But...
But Laberge later wrote an article together with Lynne Levitan in the publication
NIGHTLIGHT 3(2-3), 1991, called OTHER WORLDS: OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCES AND LUCID DREAMS (http://lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html).
The article relies on many scientists' discoveries like psychologist Susan Blackmore
From the article, which is based on scientific methods & studies:
"...OBEs are quite plainly different from lucid dreams...
...OBEs were more than four times more likely in WILDs than in DILDs.
Proof that some or even most OBEs are dreams is not enough
to allow us to say that a genuine OBE is impossible."
I don't consider the study conclusive, and they also mention that
EEG measurement of brain waves are not an exact method!
This article is old, and I wonder where LaBerge stands today on
the subject of LDs not being OBEs. I guess he still acts from a
purely physical perspective.
The EEG equipment may also have improve over those 20 years
Anyone enlighten me. :)
LMAO!
Nobody said here that genuine OOBEs don't happen. In fact, if you had checked the Lucidity link that I posted especially for you at the start of this thread, you'd know that. The real OOBE thing is still a possibility. But I've also been trying to get people to consider other possibilities.
Btw, Susan Blackmore? Really? Isn't she the parapsychologist who claimed to know for sure that there is no afterlife? I wouldn't call her a scientist. She's worse than Stephen Hawkings she is - and you know what I think of him. I've seen her mug on Newscientist - she's not worthy of being there.
Y'know what Pauli?
LaBerge (and the other authors you talk about) very well might be correct in their supposition that LD's are not OBE's.
Honestly, my personal experience and conclusions that I've drawn from them are my own... and I'm firm in my stance that LaBerge and the others are incorrect (in other words you can't convince me otherwise), but really it's my opinion, just as their stance is only their opinion.
I hope that one day we'll have conclusive "PROOF" one way or the other and we can all sit down and say "ooooh, that's how it really is, that's cool!". :)
In either case, and as Stookie points out, regardless of the experience... they're all very amazing in every regard. What people decide to label theirs as is of no consequence to me anymore. I used to care... I really did, but I don't anymore because I've changed my perspective of the experience.
Amen. 8)
Quote from: Summerlander on June 11, 2011, 17:54:56
Btw, Susan Blackmore? Really? Isn't she the parapsychologist who claimed to know for sure that there is no afterlife? I wouldn't call her a scientist. She's worse than Stephen Hawkings she is - and you know what I think of him. I've seen her mug on Newscientist - she's not worthy of being there.
You are probably correct in stating that psychologist researcher Susan Blackmore
doesn't acknowledge the existence of any afterlife. But still, she is a scientist and
as such she has made
scientific studies using scientific methods.
Her conclusion is that LDs are different phenomenas than OBEs. I don't think
it matters that she doesn't believe that an OBE is really a paranormal/astral
event.
She has made her research, for example:
Susan Blackmore published in
Lucidity Letter 7(1), 1988 an article from the
Proceedings of the European Symposium on Lucid Dream Research titled
Lucid Dreams And OBES (http://www.spiritwatch.ca/Issue7_1/LL7_1_Blackmore.htm) (my bolds):
"
...this highlights the difference between OBEs and lucid dreams.
It is difficult to have an OBE deliberately because you have to get
the normal model of self out of the way first.
In a survey (Blackmore, 1986) I found that the people who had spontaneous
OBEs tended also to have flying dreams and mystical experiences while those
who had deliberate OBEs were the ones with good dream control skills; able
to stop and start dreams at will, wake themselves up out of dreams or choose
dreams.
Having a lucid dream requires something else again. The problem is not
to get a solid model of self out of the way but rather to create a good enough
one in the first place. Only with a reasonable model of self can you realise that
you are asleep and dreaming. This makes clear the greatest difference between
the waking OBE and the lucid dream - for all their superficial resemblance.
In the OBE the state is constrained by the constant danger of the normal
model of self reasserting itself. It will then take over again as "reality" and
the world of imagination is lost. In contrast the lucid dream is constrained
by the danger of falling back into deeper sleep and losing the tentative
model of self which made the lucidity possible.
The potential of the two states is then quite different.
The OBEr is really in a deeper illusion. She imagines that the world she
sees is the physical world as it would be seen with her eyes open, that is,
she is misled into mistaking a memory model for a sensory one. Research
which seeks for actual astral bodies or paranormal effects in the OBE is
just perpetuating this confusion.
By contrast the lucid dreamer is well aware of the illusory nature of
the dream - indeed it is this which defines the lucidity. However the
OBEr has the greater potential. If only she can see through the illusion
and realize that this is a world of the imagination then anything is possible.
Once free of the constraints of the normal self model it is possible to explore
everything the mind is capable of from complex scenes to complete openness
or emptiness. Meanwhile the lucid dreamer, however lucid, is forever limited
by being asleep."
Interesting.
Blackmore draws the conclusion from her research that because the OBE:er is
perceived as more real, it must therefore be an illusion. I think it interesting that
someone who completely rejects the astral/paranormal actually reaches a
conclusion that LDs are not OBEs.
As Blackmore is a psychologist I guess that she really is interested in the OBE:er
who "realizes" that the OBE is an illusion, and thus the "self" is a creation to
make new fantastic discoveries about the human mind, but from a purely
physical perspective.
I think it's easy to question her conclusions, but anyone reading the result of
her research has to praise her for making keen observations on the differences
between OBEs and LDs.
The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Levitan and Susan Blackmore.
Okay guys, this is how I define the entire phenomena, from dreams to OOBEs.
dreams------vivid dreams----lucid dreams---(SP---)OOBE/Wakefulness.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20.
<<-------------------------- level of awareness ------------------------->>
The more aware you become the better the entire thing gets. It's enough just to have 3 OOBEs in order to find this out. Of course, in each of them you feel different, but, generally it is the same one thing.
Also, look why it is better to have a nap or pre-sleep before trying an OOBE.
If you attempt when you are sleepy, you start with the level of 1. You will definitely fall asleep. Your body is relaxed, though.
If you start whenever you want, even when you are super aware, like 20, it's kind of hard to go back, isn't it? Also your body is not relaxed.
Now, what would you need? More level of awareness and a relaxed body? You could get that if you wake up in the middle of the entire process:
Have a nap, wake up and try later. When you wake up from your nap, your body obviously is relaxed or primed and you have some high level of awareness as you wake up from or before REM. Let's say 15. That is just perfect for an OOBE.
Also, if you interrupt your sleep, stay up a little and go back, it's still the same.
Now, probably some people would say how come I had an OOBE after I woke up? As you can see 20 is for OOBE OR Wakefulness, if you body is in the "sleep" mode, you can have an OOBE. When I said above, you couldn't go back, it was more because of the body who is not relaxed.
Again, there is a difference between LD and OOBEs, but the only difference is the level of awareness, nothing more. Not always what you see in OOBEs is real and not always what you see in LD's is fake. This is what I have gotten from all my SP's and OOBEs and I don't think there will be something or someone who will be able to change my mind.
Quote from: Ssergiu on June 13, 2011, 06:32:31
Again, there is a difference between LD and OOBEs, but the only difference is the level of awareness, nothing more. Not always what you see in OOBEs is real and not always what you see in LD's is fake. This is what I have gotten from all my SP's and OOBEs and I don't think there will be something or someone who will be able to change my mind.
I'm a firm believer that it's that "level of awareness" that confuses people the most and is the direct influence upon why people think the experiences are different. They have problems interpreting the awareness factor, so they break it down in the easiest way for their mind to handle it, into these different categories.
There is no such thing as a dream. There's no such thing as a Lucid Dream. There's no such thing as an Astral Projection or an Out of Body Experience. None of them exist. There is only "an experience that doesn't happen in this physical reality frame". That's ALL that exists. In my opinion, all other divisions are people misinterpreting the data.
With that said, and as Stookie has said, call it whatever you want. Call your experience whatever you feel most comfortable calling it... *WE* know what you're referring to. Eventually, you're going to move beyond labels though.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 13, 2011, 06:13:21
You are probably correct in stating that psychologist researcher Susan Blackmore
doesn't acknowledge the existence of any afterlife. But still, she is a scientist and
as such she has made scientific studies using scientific methods.
A scientist (officially) does not mean being a good and proper scientist. I don't think she is one because she is biased and a bit ego-centric too, (you will note this when you see her in interviews). A combination that does not go along well with open-minded and UN-biased research. Moreover, it seems that due to her own faulty scientific research, she just felt "a bit sore" as a consequence by her own failure and the reaction was then to turn this obvious failure around by this kind of turn she did (out of defiance, in a way).
Since she claims and thinks she did not find enough evidence for the paranormal (which is not quite true, see below link) she kind of did that 180-degree turn and joined the holy skeptics religion, where she is highly praised (as one of "them" and a very rational and "sane" person, as opposed to looneys like us) and often quoted by them now. It seems she feels home now. :evil:
She is not a C.W. Tart, D. Radin, G. Schwartz or R. Sheldrake, who all do and did paranormal research by scientific methods - and get results! She would have liked to be, but she didn't reach it, so she changed course.
So again: As often in the scientific world related to position, recognition, money and getting high within the existing power structures: It's all about career and ego,
not about science!!!
Read here (link below):
"So, how does Blackmore reconcile the fact of 7 successful experiments out of 21 with her often-repeated claim that her own research led her to become a skeptic? Simple: results from successful experiments were dismissed as due to flaws in the experiment, yet study quality was simply ignored when the results were nonsignificant. There are many design flaws that can lead to false positive results, but there are also many that can lead to false negatives, such as inadequate sample size (low statistical power), inappropriate sampling, and so forth. Berger writes "Blackmore's database is replete with examples of such flaws (...)
Blackmore's claims that her database shows no evidence of psi are unfounded, because the vast majority of her studies were carelessly designed, executed, and reported, and in Blackmore's own assessment, individually flawed. As such, no conclusions should be drawn from this database.... Blackmore is extremely vocal in decrying psi research in her writings, on television and radio, and before the skeptical advocacy group CSICOP (the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal), citing her own work as the basis for her strong convictions. ... [She] has achieved a notable position in the skeptical community based on her conversion from believer to skeptic during her "ten years of negative research." Her insistence to the contrary notwithstanding, I believe that my review of her psi research has achieved a constructive end by showing that her conversion from parapsychologist to CSICOP Fellow had no scientific basis in her own experimental work."http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/New/Anomali/skeptic_research.html
(although a little off-topic now, here also a very useful reply to her pretty dogmatic book on the brain death theory regarding NDEs: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html )
My goodness, what is happening to this forum, lately s.o. even quoted Randi, now Blackmoore ... I'm appalled. :-o :lol:
Quote from: Ssergiu on June 13, 2011, 06:32:31
Okay guys, this is how I define the entire phenomena, from dreams to OOBEs.
dreams------vivid dreams----lucid dreams---(SP---)OOBE/Wakefulness.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20.
<<-------------------------- level of awareness ------------------------->>
I know a lot of people go by this, but I've always disagreed with this definition. I believe it's possible to have a high level of awareness in a lucid dream, and a really low/hazy level of awareness in an OBE. Just like in physical consciousness, our level of awareness can vary. Level of awareness and area of consciousness are 2 different things.
Stookie_, that was interesting. I actually interpret that as another
indication that LDs are different from OBEs.
Well from there, I believe most dreams take place around the same area of consciousness that some OBE's can take place. We just have very little awareness at the time and remember it as a dream.
The psychologist/researcher in question (and some of the other commenters) aren't taking into account wake-induced lucid dreams (WILDs) which are what most skilled lucid dreamers have. Be wary of people who haven't experienced these DIRECTLY since they often have no idea what they are talking about.
I can tell you from having 20 years of OOBEs and WILDs, usually every night, that they are the same except you don't have the 'see the room' phase with a WILD and may feel yourself drop rather than raise up. There is no difference in lucidity, longevity, flying ability, and experience of levels described by Monroe.
With time, the 'normal' experience of an OOBE will even change where you skip the Mode 1 "see the room" phase if you immediately at lift off fly away and find yourself in the 3D black world where all the good stuff begins (which is where I start with a WILD). This is automatic now so I don't get sucked back into my body and I avoid the unsavory characters I often run into in Mode 1.
Do yourself a favor and realize you can reach these states in many ways, the WILD being a little easier/faster for me personally but fun to throw in an OOBE for variety.
I definitely agree with Xanth. Also, what I said, explains why people can have OOBEs which later turn into dreams or dreams that later turn into OOBEs. Of course, our awareness varies while awake, but also while asleep. I also find this difference in awareness the reason why people identified the astral like "inferior one, middle astral, superior astral" or other stuff like this, when all the difference is the level of awareness. When in OOBE you literally feel as awake as in wakefulness but with no body. When you have OOBEs in which you are not very aware then you are phasing into a dream. Also, the lucid dream should be in brackets too as you are lucid only when you know you are dreaming. It kind of depends on you.
In other words, when your level of awareness increases you get more to awakening or OOBE. When it decreases you get more to dreams. I'd also like to mention that in all lucid dreams I had I ended up in a short period of time in SP because of my increased level of awareness. I cannot explain the entire phenomena in another way.
In a way, if you have OOBEs that feel dream-like, improve the level of awareness by asking you questions or keep yourself "aware". This will improve your experiences.
However, I agree, call it whatever you want, we'll know what you're talking about.
Quote from: Volgerle on June 13, 2011, 10:52:50
A scientist (officially) does not mean being a good and proper scientist. I don't think she is one because she is biased and a bit ego-centric too, (you will note this when you see her in interviews). A combination that does not go along well with open-minded and UN-biased research. Moreover, it seems that due to her own faulty scientific research, she just felt "a bit sore" as a consequence by her own failure and the reaction was then to turn this obvious failure around by this kind of turn she did (out of defiance, in a way).
Since she claims and thinks she did not find enough evidence for the paranormal (which is not quite true, see below link) she kind of did that 180-degree turn and joined the holy skeptics religion, where she is highly praised (as one of "them" and a very rational and "sane" person, as opposed to looneys like us) and often quoted by them now. It seems she feels home now. :evil:
I couldn't agree more! :lol: - BINGO!!!!! She is all about ego and appearances:
"The OBEr is really in a deeper illusion. She imagines that the world she
sees is the physical world as it would be seen with her eyes open, that is,
she is misled into mistaking a memory model for a sensory one. Research
which seeks for actual astral bodies or paranormal effects in the OBE is
just perpetuating this confusion."She's confused. :-D
It could all be just dreams. Dreams are a concept too. In the end, the phenomena are aspects of consciousness and these aspects, whatever they are, can be quite useful/productive. What matters most in my opinion is not the true nature of these experiences (this, for the time being is only good for fun speculation), it is how the Phase state (and forgive me if I'm using this broad term again) can be applied. :wink:
Her research is still interesting.
but still read with skepticism
Yep! Open-minded scepticism as Thomas Campbell says! :-D
In this radio interview Robert Monroe is asked if LDs can be used as springboards
to do OBEs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FhfHoqiPw&feature=related
Interestingly enough Monroe said that LDs are equivalent to F 15.
Listen to the interview around 1:00 - 1:35.
The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.
LDs != OOBEs! They are different. They feel different, but they are the same one phenomena. In non of them are you with an astral body or whatever. Let me put it like this: apple pie and orange pie (if that exists). They both are pies, the same thing, but the difference is the flavor. In OOBEs the flavor is the level of awareness. I am not saying that OOBEs are the same as being stuck in a dream, knowing it is a dream. You totally feel like you feel now, but there's no physical body. If they are not the same phenomena, what are they then?
EDIT: I think that very vivid dreams are just an illusion of an OOBE. You just need to realize you are in a dream and try to get rid of it and get out! OOBE = realization of the vivid dream and getting out/rid of it. LD = realization of the vivid dream, but staying in it.
I personally don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here. Everyone is spending so much time debating and worrying about other people's postulations that they barley have time to make any of their own! Why does it even matter? In the end, OBE's, LD's, Phasing, they're all just words to describe tools to help us recognize that this life around us isn't all that there is. If you observe them to be different then they will be for you. As astute Phasers, OBE's, Projectors, whatever you call yourselves, you surely must realize how strong the power of thought is in these altered states of consciousness. Maybe the reason no one can agree is because their belief system has a direct effect on their thoughts in these states. So in my opinion no one will win these debates because it is different for everyone. Why don't we all just learn and grow from them? Everyone is always so concerned about putting a word to a concept so that we can discuss and share it with others, but we have experienced these altered states of awareness and what I believe is most important is the fact that we continue to strive to learn more from them instead of debating about the names that we give them.
Quote from: dotster on July 06, 2011, 05:18:45
Why does it even matter? In the end, OBE's, LD's, Phasing...
There are several reasons which you might have seen if you have read the thread. Let's recap some:
1. People, who get NDE (which are VERY similar to OBEs), would like to know that an NDE is not just a dream, an LD.
2. You want to avoid getting stuck in certain Focus Levels, because LDs are low power astral experiences (see Buhlman's site).
3. You want to improve your re-call from your experiences by getting OBEs and not low powered experiences.
4. You don't want to be tricked when someone calls an apple, a pear.
5. You name it...
Dotster, you're 100% correct.
It doesn't matter.
Quote from: Pauli2 on July 06, 2011, 07:59:54
4. You don't want to be tricked when someone calls an apple, a pear.
You say this like one's direct experience is somehow invalidated be a potentially erroneous second hand label. If you were visited be aliens and someone came along and told you that was a pretty mundane event, would you be disappointed or would you blow it off and still be in awe that you were visited by aliens? The experience speaks for itself, first and foremost. If you want a label for sake of communication, all you need is to describe your level of awareness (dreamy vs. waking) and whether you had knowledge of being outside the physical (lucid vs. non lucid.) All the added crap... is largely unnecessary. If anything we should be arguing the metaphysical functions that tie all these variations together, not on how they're different. Why? Because the differences are purely subjective and therefore a waste of time.
Quote from: Astral316 on July 06, 2011, 10:39:20
You say this like one's direct experience is somehow invalidated be a potentially erroneous second hand label. If you were visited be aliens and someone came along and told you that was a pretty mundane event, would you be disappointed or would you blow it off and still be in awe that you were visited by aliens? The experience speaks for itself, first and foremost. If you want a label for sake of communication, all you need is to describe your level of awareness (dreamy vs. waking) and whether you had knowledge of being outside the physical (lucid vs. non lucid.) All the added crap... is largely unnecessary. If anything we should be arguing the metaphysical functions that tie all these variations together, not on how they're different. Why? Because the differences are purely subjective and therefore a waste of time.
Well said indeed, sir. Well said. :)
And of course the post discussing the thread subject is glazed over for the more juicy controversial material of he said, she said.
Is this a matter of rallying up random scientists that don't believe there's any major metaphysical difference between LDs and OBEs? In that case I'd be interested to hear what Campbell has to say about this.
Campbell says it's the same excrement. :-D
In an attempt to salvage the thread... let's go in this direction.
How about we compare the two "types" (and I use that term BEYOND loosely) experiences?
What can you do in a Lucid Dream? What does a Lucid Dream feel like (and here's the kicker part..) "to you"?
What can you do in an OBE/AP? What does an OBE/AP feel like "to you"?
Quote from: Xanth on July 06, 2011, 13:41:55
What can you do in a Lucid Dream? What does a Lucid Dream feel like (and here's the kicker part..) "to you"?
I have control over my environment... I can fly... I can manipulate just about anything with a simple thought... I can gain information through talking to other people around me.
A Lucid Dream feels just like I feel right this very second... the difference being I don't fully realize that I'm a physical person and I don't have complete access to my waking awareness, but I know I'm "asleep".
QuoteWhat can you do in an OBE/AP? What does an OBE/AP feel like "to you"?
Same as above... except I do have access to all that is physically me.
My conclusion that I draw from it? They're the same thing, the difference being the quality of consciousness of the experiencer.
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
1 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually sleep).
2 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually project from).
Conclusion:
Read my signature!
Also, check this out:
http://48lucid-dream.blogspot.com/
"While dream control and dream awareness are correlated, neither requires the other—LaBerge has found dreams which exhibit one clearly without the capacity for the other; also, in some dreams where the dreamer is lucid and aware they could exercise control, they choose simply to observe.[17] In 1992, a study by Deirdre Barrett examined whether lucid dreams contained four "corollaries" of lucidity: knowing that dreamt people are indeed dreamt, that objects won't persist beyond waking, that physical laws need not apply, and having clear memory of the waking world, and found less than a quarter of lucidity accounts exhibited all four. A related and reciprocal category of dreams that are lucid in terms of some of these four corollaries, but miss the realization that "I'm dreaming" were also reported. Scores on these corollaries and correctly identifying the experience as a dream increased with lucidity experience."
You will find a lot more there, folks... 8-)
Quote from: Summerlander on July 06, 2011, 14:58:41
1 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually sleep).
2 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually project from).
Conclusion:
Read my signature!
Also, check this out:
http://48lucid-dream.blogspot.com/
That site is interesting. Actually exactly what I wanted to read up on! However, there are thousands of mistakes :-o A lot of misspelled words! "madatiation" "feith" "wors" "then"
LOL! :-D
Yeah...it's a shame. But yeah, there is a good chance that all we're doing is just dreaming...a peculiar or distinct form of dreaming from the 'normal' dreaming. That is all the Phase could be! Wouldn't you agree, Ssergiu, my man? :wink:
"In a study of fourteen lucid dreamers performed in 1991, people who perform wake-initiated lucid dreams operation (WILD) reported experiences consistent with aspects of out-of-body experiences such as floating above their beds and the feeling of leaving their bodies. Due to the phenomenological overlap between lucid dreams, near-death experiences, and out-of-body experiences, researchers say they believe a protocol could be developed to induce a lucid dream similar to a near-death experience in the laboratory.
According to Buddhist teachers, the experience of lucidity helps us to understand the unreality of phenomena, which would otherwise be overwhelming during dream or the death experience."
More from that site. ^^^
8-)
Quote from: Summerlander on July 06, 2011, 15:17:00
LOL! :-D
Yeah...it's a shame. But yeah, there is a good chance that all we're doing is just dreaming...a peculiar or distinct form of dreaming from the 'normal' dreaming. That is all the Phase could be! Wouldn't you agree, Ssergiu, my man? :wink:
If we are dreaming, this dream is too stable, but then again, it could feel like this when we die. Waking up from a dream feels weird as we came back in a world that has its own set of rules and things don't add up. Probably, especially those who are not used to the Phase, we will feel the same about our life as it is not very similar to our previous "dream"'s rules.. although we can make the meta-physical be like this. Did this make any sense? lol
Yes, those who are not used to lucidity may find the death transition confusing...poor souls! :|
But, death is oblivion. You won't feel a thing. You...no more! There is nothing after death...hopefully! :-D
More from that site:
"The wake-initiated lucid dream occurs when "the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state". There are many techniques aimed at entering a WILD. The key to these techniques is recognizing the hypnagogic stage, which is within the border of being awake and being asleep. If a person is successful in staying aware while this stage occurs, that person will eventually enter the dream state while being fully aware that it is a dream.
There are key times at which this state is best entered; while success at normal bedtime after having been awake all day is very difficult, it is relatively easy after sleeping for 3–7 hours or in the afternoon during a nap. Techniques for inducing WILDs abound. Dreamers may count, envision themselves climbing or descending stairs, chant to themselves, control their breathing, count their breaths to keep their thoughts from drifting, concentrate on relaxing their body from their toes to their head, or allow images to flow through their "mind's eye" and envision themselves jumping into the image to maintain concentration and keep their mind awake, while still being calm enough to let their bodies sleep.
During the actual transition into the dream state, dreamers are likely to experience sleep paralysis, including rapid vibrations, a sequence of loud sounds, and a feeling of twirling into another state of body awareness, or of "drifting off into another dimension", or like passing the interface between water into air, face front, body first, or the gradual sharpening and becoming "real" of images or scenes they are thinking of and trying to visualize gradually, which they can actually "see", instead of the indefinite sensations they feel when trying to imagine something while wide awake.
Brilliant! :-P
Quote from: Summerlander on July 06, 2011, 15:24:34
Yes, those who are not used to lucidity may find the death transition confusing...poor souls! :|
But, death is oblivion. You won't feel a thing. You...no more! There is nothing after death...hopefully! :-D
"souls"....
Anyway, I think I want to have some fun before oblivion. :-P Let's stay on topic though, we've got fb for that. :-D I still had to tell you something...
Ok, I hope you tell me soon on Facebook. By the way, we are on topic. We have just shown that OOBE = Lucid dream. :-D
More:
"During REM sleep the body paralyzes itself as a protection mechanism in order to prevent the movements which occur in the dream from causing the physical body to move. However, it is possible for this mechanism to be triggered before, during, or after normal sleep while the brain awakens. This can lead to a state where a person is lying in bed and feels paralyzed. Hypnagogic hallucination may occur in this state, especially auditory ones. Effects of sleep paralysis include heaviness or inability to move the muscles, rushing or pulsating noises, and brief hypnogogic imagery. Experiencing sleep paralysis is a necessary part of WILD, in which dreamers essentially detach their "dream" body from the paralyzed one. Also see OBE or Out-Of-Body-Experience, opposing the scientific theory of these occurrences stating that the paralysis is actually an occurrence to one who is already "separated" from their physical body meaning that "physical action potentials" have no effect here but "mental actions" do—a hint given that those who are finding difficulty moving are using the wrong "mechanism"."
Quote from: Ssergiu on July 06, 2011, 15:21:53
If we are dreaming, this dream is too stable, but then again, it could feel like this when we die. Waking up from a dream feels weird as we came back in a world that has its own set of rules and things don't add up. Probably, especially those who are not used to the Phase, we will feel the same about our life as it is not very similar to our previous "dream"'s rules.. although we can make the meta-physical be like this. Did this make any sense? lol
Well, I'll tell ya... when you ask "if we are dreaming, this dream is too stable"...
When I'm experiencing a dream while it's happening, it feels *EXACTLY* like I do right now. There's, literally, no difference.
I actually just found a really well written article on another site: http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/difference.html
I liked it so much I just posted it to my own website. The author, Anne, describes it in the first paragraph that she believes the difference is which "mind" is in control (conscious or subconscious minds) during the experience, which is really a great way to describe it.
If your subconscious mind is in full control, it's a dream experience.
If your conscious mind is in full control, it's an astral experience.
Then there's the range of combinations between those two, which would be lucid experiences of varying degrees.
It's all about "internalizing" the experience instead of "externalizing" them. These experiences aren't something you do... they're a state of mind YOU ARE.
You don't HAVE an astral projection... you ARE astrally aware (or in Anne's case, your conscious mind is in full control).
Nice said, Xanth! I guess it works that way too. :-D What I always meant by losing awareness was exactly the fact that your subconscious mind is taking over.
That makes sense. Also, let's remember that non-lucid dreams can be vivid and whatever happens in them is completely accepted by the brain to be really happening. When one is aware of dreaming, however, brain parts that are usually active during the waking state have displayed similar activity. It's as if the conscious is analysing the unconscious. This is also why I've used the brain hemispheres hypothesis as a possible explanation for the differences between Mode 1 and Mode 2:
There is, of course, the possibility that one never really leaves the body as the experience could be an illusion created by the brain, and that, while dreams and imagination could be a product of abundant activity in the right hemisphere of the brain, Mode 1 OOBEs would be a product of the left hemisphere and hence the reason why they are 'more true to life' so to speak. Experiences conducted with split-brain individuals where dreaming is concerned seemingly strengthen the feasibility of such explanation as their dreaming was found to be unimaginative and often tied to reality.
- Summerlander :evil:
More from that link:
"OBEs induced from waking (with the intention of achieving Astral Projection) and lucid dreams induced from waking cover such similar ground that common misinterpretation of one as the other (or even equivalence) can be hypothesized. Realistic-seeming yet physically impossible impressions of flying, time-traveling or walking through the walls of an environment matching one's bedroom are equally hallmarks of either. (As those who have experienced them will attest, neither "feels" like ordinary dreams at all.) Their induction techniques are similar, and both are easier to perform at times typical for afternoon naps and late morning REM cycles."
I took a look at the T Campbell forum and found one post from him, where he says that
LDs and OBEs "are fundamentally very similar". Similar but NOT identical. He then
continues with mentioning their main differences. It seems that Campbell thinks the
difference between LDs and OBEs are smaller than some other astral matter experts.
But still, he view them as having differences, though small such.
So to keep with the subject:
The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Campbell, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.
Actually, I'm fairly certain Tom would be quite disappointed in your approach here Pauli.
Can you provide the exact forum post you read?
Secondly... his version of reality doesn't quite match up with the others, it's his TOE reality that he's referring to. In which case, there's PMR (Physical Matter Reality) and NPMR (Non Physical Matter Reality)... that's the basics of how he breaks it down. Dreams, Lucid Dreams, Astral Projections... to him, all happen in NPMR.
He'd state that the different labels that people give these experiences are vastly meaningless. What's important is ONLY the experience... not what someone labels it. And with that statement, I'd 100% agree with him. Although I'm fairly certain that you'll never experience it nor understand it.
Through his TOE, he actually has a very insightful label of his own: Out-Of-PMR Experience (OOPE)
In my experience that is a much better label than Monroe's OOBE will ever be.
And allow me to toss a wrench into your list there, and you might wanna remove Campbell from your list too:
http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2961&p=6164&hilit=Lucid+Dream#p6164
QuoteLucid dreams and OOBE approach leaving PMR from different awareness's and perspectives. Because of that difference people who have little operational control tend, by default, to remain tied to the spaces through which they enter the out-of-PMR experience --- i.e., lucid dreams (entered from a dream state) are more dreamlike and OOBE (entered fully conscious) is more awake like. However it is only habit and belief that ties someone to the spaces through which they enter the out-of-PMR experience. Once free of PMR, your focus and intent (and, of course, your ego, fears, expectations, needs, and beliefs -- if you happen to have any of those things :-)) are solely in charge of what happens next.
It's quite clear that through Tom's experiences, once you leave PMR (the method or mode is of not much concern), you're "out" and what happens to you is entirely up to you.
I'm not even sure why I'm writing this... it's gonna go in one ear and out the other, just like the entire last year. Meh.
This thread is going in circles now.
I'm going to lock and leave this thread with this bit written by Tom himself: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2263&p=2515&hilit=Lucid+Dream#p2515