Lucid Dream?

[Naykid]

From that perspective it seems to me like you're talking an f1 overlay not being a lucid dream while not being in an overlay is a lucid dream. You're explaining viewing the dream from a distance vs actually being phased into scene. If you want to make that differentiation as your definition, then that's fine, and I will agree with it since it does not incorporate levels of awareness. I actually had a dream today that when I think about it was phased into the scene and viewed from a distance at other parts. Going on a roller coaster ride that turns out to be someone driving through ice slipping all over the place almost falling off the track is fun.. I don't know how we made it through *phew*

I think I got it!!!  You are talking about different perspectives.... like, third person, first person and even sometimes from someone else' perspective.  We haven't been talking about being lucid, just the different perspectives.    Yay!  wait.. am I right?   

Where are you from, Yin.. is English your first language?  I think that might be what some of the issues have been over the past few days.  The subtleties of the English language. 

[omcasey]

Naykid 

We're talking about both, or at least I am..

Lucid of the fact that I am dreaming + from the point of perspective *within* the dream

To me this = lucid dreaming.

[Naykid]

Naykid 

We're talking about both, or at least I am..

Lucid of the fact that I am dreaming + from the point of perspective *within* the dream

To me this = lucid dreaming.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..  Yes, I also have been talking about being lucid. I think Yin might be confusing a point of perspective with lucidity, or the fact that you can't have one without the other or   hell, I don't know anymore. 

[Yin]

I think I got it!!!  You are talking about different perspectives.... like, third person, first person and even sometimes from someone else' perspective.  We haven't been talking about being lucid, just the different perspectives.    Yay!  wait.. am I right?  
Where are you from, Yin.. is English your first language?  I think that might be what some of the issues have been over the past few days.  The subtleties of the English language.  

I didn't know we had issues ... tbh, at least they didn't seem to be so important that they necessitated a response from you such that they could be cleared, as I hoped they would, unless we're talking of this thread solely. Misunderstandings due to a difference in definitions based upon separate experiences will happen even amongst the most versed of speakers. I never was talking of different perspectives originally as having anything to do with lucidity, omcasey brought that up as a differentiation between the only seemingly two types of dreams most often expressed to me. So I went along with it since if you remember I have based the term upon remembrance from immediate memory when experiencing the dream as knowledge is derived in that manner. So I have agreed with omcasey as to perspective being another differentiation besides remembrance, yet to you both immediate remembrance is only a factor that is categorizing as to if it is a normal dream or not a dream at all.. I guess? Yet, if it was a "normal" dream, you would actually have no memory of it. Unless you believe that you don't unconsciously dream? However, if you believe you project when you sleep, then you have to most certainly believe that you unconsciously dream. I think now I have to make terms then to describe the differences between perspectives as well as describing the different levels of conscious awareness one can have during the conscious dream. That will tie the knot on this for me.

[Naykid]

OMG, Yin.  What did I do wrong now? 

I'm bowing out of said discussion because I think you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. 

[Yin]

OMG, Yin.  What did I do wrong now? 

I'm bowing out of said discussion because I think you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. 

I'm not arguing, if saying my views =arguing, then, I guess so. I don't think you did anything wrong. Perhaps it would be better if a forum wasn't used for such types of discussions.

[Xanth]

What are we discussing right now?

What we all personally define "Lucid Dreaming" as?

~Ryan

[Yin]

What are we discussing right now?

What we all personally define "Lucid Dreaming" as?

~Ryan

Well, I have basically said that lucid dreaming is too vague of a term due to the vast scope of awareness it actually covers while it is thought to be a "high level" of awareness which is "recognizing" that you are in a dream or not, however this leaves a gap in awareness between basically medium high and low awareness. A lucid dream is compared to a normal dream, so, a normal dream must then cover a gap that is from 1% to medium high.. maybe 75% of awareness. Countering this I have basically due to the vagueness of the term just said a lucid dream covers whatever awareness one has to be at to have immediate remembrance of the dream middream to 100% and a normal dream is an unconscious dream, as we are not aware of it at all, which are the most common types of dreams to the majority of inexperienced individuals. In addition to this, omcasey has said that dreams are also separated by perspective, which I have agreed upon. So as of now I have no definition for lucid dreaming as it is an incomplete term. You are correct as that is what we are discussing.

[omcasey]

What are we discussing right now?

What we all personally define "Lucid Dreaming" as?

The OPs question lead into a discussion about what makes a dream a lucid dream.  As well as various thoughts from Yin about what s/he feels is lacking in the current definition and terminology.  Primarily Yin does not like the "you either are or you are not" part  .

The OPs original question----


"Ok i dreamt I was flying in the sky last night but my arm was stretched really really really long and someone on the ground was holding onto my hand to help me control it. I remember thinking it was good, but felt a little bit nervous about lack of control.

I dont think I had any control over my dream though and from what I have read you are meant to have control in a lucid dream.

Any thoughts on this experience? Or was it just purely a normal dream?"


Anyone new care to step in??.....

[Xanth]

Allow me to go back to Frank for a second here:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/dream_or_obe-t13780.0.html;msg109325#msg109325

The original poster asks the question, "Is it possible I was having an obe but not fully conscious?" Yes, that is exactly what you were having.

Essentially, the only basic difference between a dream, a lucid dream, or full-blown obe is a person's degree of conscious awareness. So a dream is basically an obe but with next to no conscious awareness.

The key to getting out of the dream scenario is to stop the release of emotion which is fuelling it. When I was doing this, what I'd do is ignore the dreamscape and concentrate on just one particular aspect, just a really simple aspect, and ask myself questions about it. This would bring into play my longer-term memory and increase my powers of reason. Then, once I'd got a high degree of awareness, I'd concentrate on becoming totally still, i.e. I'd stop thinking about anything. This would cut the fuel to the dream which would cause it to quickly dissipate. Then I'd be ready to do some Astral exploration.

THAT is my belief.

If you're not aware that you're dreaming, it *IS NOT* a lucid dream.
Doesn't get much more simple than that.

Actually, that post I linked is BRIMMING with awesome information regarding HOW to convert a LD into a Projection too!

~Ryan

[omcasey]

I love! Frank and am fully aligned.  What *he* said  .

[Yin]

(text that use to be here)

Ok, after talking with Xanth for like 40 minutes I understand where the confusion with this entire terminology lies, at least for me. Lucid dreaming is not a level of awareness as commonly said, it is a level of understanding, yet it is being based as a level of conscious awareness, so that is what I used it as also. Its common definition is "being aware you are dreaming while dreaming". This is erroneous, as it is not that you are aware you are dreaming but understanding of that fact. Awareness and understanding are not synonymous, you gain understanding through awareness. To be aware is to be consciously knowledgeable of. Knowledge is gained not through experience, but the immediate memory of the experience. When we unconsciously project, we actually experience the entirety of the projection, yet we are not knowledgeable of it at all, why? Because we are not conscious enough such that we can consciously remember the experience and be aware of it. So being on a level of understanding with that knowledge(awareness) is what turns a dream into a lucid dream.

[Xanth]

I can agree with that.

Although, it's just easier to say "how consciously aware" you are... than stating that paragraph you just wrote. 
I think, as you said before on IRC, that "understanding" is implied or assumed.

~Ryan

[Yin]

.. being consciously aware and understanding what you are aware of are two completely different things. If it was implied or assumed then there was no way for me to know that without having prior assumptions as I've never seen it expressed before as I just did. I will not just parrot what others say unless I have a true understanding of what it encompasses.

[Xanth]

I think you've hit the nail on the head for over thinking. 

~Ryan

[personalreality]

I don't really see any particular value in defining your experiences as dream, LD, AP, etc.

The reason being that all of your experience exists on a continuum of awareness, with "physical" on one end and "non-physical" on the other.

When you start lumping things together in generic categories like this they lose their essence. 

I think you'd all do best to stop trying to define your experience and just have the experience.  See what you feel about it.  What does your gut tell you is happening.  Not your logic or reason, your gut, your intuition.  You know these answers already, you're plugged into all of them.  But you damned intellectuals wanna break it down as far as you can so you have some way to tell other people about it.  It doesn't matter how well your articulate your experience or how beautiful and succinct your definitions are, no one else will EVER understand what you experience.  You can't possibly expect to put infinity into words.

[Stookie]

I don't really see any particular value in defining your experiences as dream, LD, AP, etc.

The reason being that all of your experience exists on a continuum of awareness, with "physical" on one end and "non-physical" on the other.

When you start lumping things together in generic categories like this they lose their essence. 

I think you'd all do best to stop trying to define your experience and just have the experience.  See what you feel about it.  What does your gut tell you is happening.  Not your logic or reason, your gut, your intuition.  You know these answers already, you're plugged into all of them.  But you damned intellectuals wanna break it down as far as you can so you have some way to tell other people about it.  It doesn't matter how well your articulate your experience or how beautiful and succinct your definitions are, no one else will EVER understand what you experience.  You can't possibly expect to put infinity into words.

I wholeheartedly agree. Well put.

[Xanth]

From a learning standpoint, it has great value knowing and understanding where you are so you can understanding and know where to go.
But in the long term, I agree completely too. 

~Ryan

[omcasey]

Mm, regardless of how awkward, and/or awkwardly viewed by others, attempts to communicate are never in vain. 

Energy will always seek expression, it is the way of it- and, fortunately, we tend to get good at what we do alot.

Inevitably  . .

[personalreality]

verbal communication IS in vain.

you're wasting energy that's better used for further expansion of your self.

people struggle their whole lives trying to verbalize the ineffable.

that's just stupid.

[omcasey]

As you, the thoughts I hold I experience.  I do not hold this thought, though, so am not experiencing it in the way you are.

Verbal communication can be a struggle, I agree, but it is not so much for me anymore.

My approach is different now.