Lucid Dreaming In Reverse: Dream Persona Possession

[Leo Volont]

Lucid Dreaming In Reverse: Dream Persona Possession

As I have said before, Lucid Dreaming is intended to Integrate the Waking Self with the Dreaming Persona.  But it does beg the question of whether the Dreaming Persona could also visit the Waking State and 'take control' just as the Waking Self invades and usurps the Dream World from the Dream Persona during Lucid Dreaming.

One needs to wonder about certain experiences as perhaps indicating that the Dreaming Persona had paid a visit and had taken over the house – when one 'loses control of oneself', or one's behavior during drunken fugue states which are not remembered the next morning.  In extreme cases we have the phenomena of multiple personality, where we can begin to conceptualize these competing Personalities as being Dream Personas invading Waking Life just as our Waking Selves take over in Dreams during Lucidity.

Now, ordinarily I would warn everybody to be extremely careful of allowing a Dream Persona's taking over one's Life.   Ordinarily Dream Personas are more primitive than our Waking Selves.  And often it is actually encouraged.  How many dreamers will admit that they go to sleep in the hopes of enjoying some primitive experiences of the more morally indulgent Dream Persona.  People go to sleep hoping for sex and violence, but little thought is given regarding the possibility that one is encouraging and strengthening these impulses within oneself, or the likelihood that one is building the strength and the substance of the Dreaming Persona.   One should worry that a particularly strong Dream Persona might take over.

But then there can be some peculiar developments.  Now, understand that I am an old man and have been working with my dreams and doing Lucid Dreaming for decades now.  I've been startled lately to find that in many cases my Dream Persona is a better person then my Waking Self.  Kinder, braver, more intelligent, more persuasive, and more effective. 

Anyway, it appears that my program for Moralizing and Integrating the Waking Self into the Dream Persona has succeeded in its direction.  The Dream Persona is no longer an indulged Primitive.  But the Dream Persona has seen the Direction I have pointed and has continued on even until it has passed me by.  It has become the Person I wish I was.  Well, then, if such is the case, I would have nothing much to fear from my Dream Persona stepping into my Life to take control once in a while.

[Flannery]

People go to sleep hoping for sex and violence, but little thought is given regarding the possibility that one is encouraging and strengthening these impulses within oneself, or the likelihood that one is building the strength and the substance of the Dreaming Persona.   One should worry that a particularly strong Dream Persona might take over.

The superego is less in control during dreams. And there's less censorship between the unconscious and our consciousness... Yet there still is some censorship.

In LD, one knows that it's just a dream and may want to experience with some wishes/fantasies - but the result is usually disappoiting, which is not a bad thing. "Oh so, that was that..." I have never been *less* of a good person by allowing myself some freedom in my LD - probably the opposite. Fantasizing is about "breaking some rules", rules usuallu imposed by the superego. Fantasy is healthy. Unless one is fixated.

[cainam_nazier]

That is a really interesting line of thinking.  I had to take a day of thinking about it before responding.  I particularly thought about the part about the Dream Persona visiting the Waking World.  It brings up a couple of thoughts about people with multiple personallity dissorders.  I kinda wonder if in these cases if it an aspect of thier dream persona that simpley became stronger than thier waking persona and therefor it can visit/invade the waking life when it chooses.  Alternately it could fully take over when we go to sleep, some what like switching positions for that time period.  Some what like what goes on with the main character in the movie "Fight Club".

Now you mention that you have given your dream persona a direction to follow and it has done so.  So now would it not just be an issue of merging the two personas into a single one that exists in both the dream world and the real world?  DO you think that this is possible with out loosing the core of your personallity?  Is it something that could even be tried?  Now in cases of multiple personalities this is one of the ways they try to "cure" the person.  They work on merging the personallities together by talking to each one individually and getting them to agree to do so.  That is of course if the different personallities are "safe" and not so much the primal instincts that they tend to be.

I am also curious about your thoughts on Multiple Dream Personas.  As I was thinking back on the various dreams that I can remember, mostly the ones where I was not fully aware durring them, or chose to play the part given to me in the dream.  I have come to the conclusion that it is posible for me to seperate out about 4 different dream personas.  Out of them there are only 2 that I seem to have any real influence over, the other 2 are considerably less moral than the others and myself in the waking world.  But I am confident that I could potentially merge them all together.

One final thought and then I will stop.  When/if a dream persona visits the waking world do you think that it carries with it all the same abilities/skills/mental capacities it has in the dream world?  Or does it come through mildly fogged as we often are when we go into the dream world.  Now there are things that we can do in the dream world that for the most part don't happen in the real world, for instance flying or incredible strength.  Now for us they are not abilities that exist in both realms for us largely because there are more options in the dream world and secondly we spen so little time doing it because our consious dream time tends to be limited.  But what about the dream persona, the part of us that spends its whole time in the dream world?  It would be logical to think that the dream persona would be an expert at these things because it has spent its who life dealing with them.  Do you think that when they visit the waking world they could bring some of that with them?  I ask because I wonder about the amazing things that some people have done that usually gets attributed to adrenalin.  For instance you hear about people lifting busses off of people or jumping fences so they can catch some one falling out of a building.  One of the things that usually goes along with these stories is that the people don't realize they have done it, or some even remembering they have done it.  They only remember that they saw it and reacted.  I wonder if these kinds of things could be instances where the dream persona takes over and brings with it all the things that it can normally do in the dream world into the real world.

Anyway, sorry it maybe a little long winded but your post got me thinking and I am interested in your responce.

[Sovak]

Often at times I'm nothing. Its like my whole body becomes as water and the feeling of cascading water streaming down this shape of a new body is rising away from my physical in a vaporous manner, meanwhile the energy is still pouring like raindrops down to the body thats left behind.

Then its like trying to hold onto circuitry with electricity flowing through my physical until Ive stood up.

After that there really isn't any thought about shape or density or form, or relative position its just half white in vast dimensions and half black in another direction with doors, countless doors in every direction.


But mostly I don't get that far because something distracts me and I awake unless I achieve this location as I'm falling asleep.

[Nameless]

Wow, this thread really hits close to home. I know it's an old one and the OP has apparently jumped ship but he really made some great observations.

He said, "As I have said before, Lucid Dreaming is intended to Integrate the Waking Self with the Dreaming Persona.  But it does beg the question of whether the Dreaming Persona could also visit the Waking State and 'take control' just as the Waking Self invades and usurps the Dream World from the Dream Persona during Lucid Dreaming"

That's worth a thought or two. I don't know that integrating the two personas is intended or not. I'm not at all sure how that would work but I am wholly convinced the dreaming self can visit others, awake or sleeping.

OP, "Ordinarily Dream Personas are more primitive than our Waking Selves.  And often it is actually encouraged.  How many dreamers will admit that they go to sleep in the hopes of enjoying some primitive experiences of the more morally indulgent Dream Persona"

Perhaps some of our dreams are more primitive, I know some of mine have been. But many of my LDs have been very advanced. In those dreams I step in to help people in some pretty odd circumstances. Until I started reading here I never gave much thought to AP, OOBEs, LDs or any of that stuff as being separate. Since being here I need to re-order my thinking as I am sure many of my lucid dreams were other, for lack of a better word.

I'm still a little confused on this as it seems AP takes place on in the astral but many of my LDs take place in the here and now. This has been proven to me time and again although I don't have the kind of 'proof' that would make it scientific fact in anyone else' view.

OP, "The Dream Persona is no longer an indulged Primitive.  But the Dream Persona has seen the Direction I have pointed and has continued on even until it has passed me by'

Ditto

[EscapeVelocity]

This is a great topic to have pulled forward Nameless, thank you!

There are several very good insights within the responses and they invite some lengthy consideration.

I made a post regarding this a couple years ago, if I can only figure how to copy it here. In the meantime:

The most simple delineation of these two mind-states is to me the difference between the Physical Reality (PR) mind-state and the Non-Physical (NPR) mind-state. Or the two Personalities, as Szaxx has suggested.

Leo makes the excellent observation that the initial NPR mind-state is somewhat "primitive". I agree but will add that with further experience and understanding, a new form of awareness emerges, deepens and evolves.

Cainem provides the suggestion that these two mind-states/Personalities may merge at some point; I lean in this direction at the present time, allowing for a necessary dexterity to remain aware of both.

Continued Non-Physical (NPR) experiences demonstrate that we need to learn new senses, sensibilities, modalities for learning these new NPR environments. Initially, we just try to understand these new senses within our current PR modalities: see, hear, feel, taste, smell...the NPR forces us to find new descriptions, new definitions; how do we define 360 degree vision? Zero gravity? Moving through solid material, bi-location awareness or single-point awareness?

Nameless, you are beginning to question the differences between LDs and OBEs and APs and the varying degrees of knowledge and experience they each can afford you...that is a keen insight...there is good stuff within each, but this realization invites a new level of differentiation of these experiences. Fun stuff! And the sandbox only gets bigger!

With the OBE/AP experience...are we being asked to abandon the PR experience for the NPR experience? Or is it an adaptation, an assimilation of the two...and possibly experiences even beyond that...?

[Lumaza]

 Could it be the "Dream Persona" is setting the stage for the current Dream Simulation? I find that my "Dream Persona" is totally different in some aspects from my waking self and that "it" creates situations that my "conscious waking mind" must then find resolutions too. In that way, it is doing what it takes to make me become conscious that I am Dreaming in the first place.  Could this be the "duty" of our Dream Persona's? Using whatever it can at it's disposal to aide us in not only becoming conscious, but also making conscious decisions in the NPR, thus teaching us how to navigate this area to our fullest abilities.

I find all of these realities to be "schools" of sorts. This physical realty included! Once again learning by experiencing.   

I have many LDs that seem to take place in the RTZ. But I find it's a "parallel RTZ" that I am experiencing. So many times I find myself in simulations where I don't know the people around me or the place I find myself in, but the people around me know me and the place I find myself in is my "home" at the time. I return to these parallel universes enough to realize the areas I find myself in. That's the bonus of using a Dream/AP Journal. You learn to connect the dots.

...and yes my AP's/OBEs seem to have a totally different feel and destination. They are all "non ordinary states of consciousness", but they seem to have a lot of very distinct differences. 

[Nameless]

This is a great topic to have pulled forward Nameless, thank you!

You're welcome. This one to good to go unnoticed.

The most simple delineation of these two mind-states is to me the difference between the Physical Reality (PR) mind-state and the Non-Physical (NPR) mind-state. Or the two Personalities, as Szaxx has suggested.

I'm learning this. I keep going back to all of my experiences from childhood upwards. What strikes me is the evolution from childhood to adulthood. But I am also stricken with running theme throughout. That is one of helping. Well, when I wasn't running away from hairy beast from the deep, lol.

Cainem provides the suggestion that these two mind-states/Personalities may merge at some point; I lean in this direction at the present time, allowing for a necessary dexterity to remain aware of both.

Yes, this.

Continued Non-Physical (NPR) experiences demonstrate that we need to learn new senses, sensibilities, modalities for learning these new NPR environments. Initially, we just try to understand these new senses within our current PR modalities: see, hear, feel, taste, smell...the NPR forces us to find new descriptions, new definitions; how do we define 360 degree vision? Zero gravity? Moving through solid material, bi-location awareness or single-point awareness?

Great question as those who do not have these experiences really can't grasp the concepts so defining them is essential. My biggest concern after being here and trying to digest the 'language' is.. That my LDs contain ALL of the descriptors for AP, OOBEs and such so I prefer to just stick with calling them all lucid dreams as they are much more complex and clear.

Nameless, you are beginning to question the differences between LDs and OBEs and APs and the varying degrees of knowledge and experience they each can afford you...that is a keen insight...there is good stuff within each, but this realization invites a new level of differentiation of these experiences. Fun stuff! And the sandbox only gets bigger!

With the OBE/AP experience...are we being asked to abandon the PR experience for the NPR experience? Or is it an adaptation, an assimilation of the two...and possibly experiences even beyond that...?

It is interesting to differentiate the differences and it makes it more challenging to get on the same page with others as they describe their experiences. Every where I look I'm finding new toys in the old sandbox. 

Your questions are point on. At the moment I think we are being asked to trust our 'knowing' and share that.

[Nameless]

Could it be the "Dream Persona" is setting the stage for the current Dream Simulation? I find that my "Dream Persona" is totally different in some aspects from my waking self and that "it" creates situations that my "conscious waking mind" must then find resolutions too. In that way, it is doing what it takes to make me become conscious that I am Dreaming in the first place.  Could this be the "duty" of our Dream Persona's? Using whatever it can at it's disposal to aide us in not only becoming conscious, but also making conscious decisions in the NPR, thus teaching us how to navigate this area to our fullest abilities.

I find all of these realities to be "schools" of sorts. This physical realty included! Once again learning by experiencing.   

I have many LDs that seem to take place in the RTZ. But I find it's a "parallel RTZ" that I am experiencing. So many times I find myself in simulations where I don't know the people around me or the place I find myself in, but the people around me know me and the place I find myself in is my "home" at the time. I return to these parallel universes enough to realize the areas I find myself in. That's the bonus of using a Dream/AP Journal. You learn to connect the dots.

...and yes my AP's/OBEs seem to have a totally different feel and destination. They are all "non ordinary states of consciousness", but they seem to have a lot of very distinct differences. 

I think you right and it is our 'dream persona' creating the 'simulation'. I see a lot of people saying it's our imagination. That may be the case much of the time but in my experience those are just normal run-of-the-mill dreams. Honestly, there is no way the LDs evolve from my imagination. I'm just not that imaginative on my own.

What I think about that parallel tz you mention is that what is happening is that we are interacting with others who are also sharing that tz. I see myself often in these LDs and rarely am I me. I'm usually whoever the other person needs. Sometimes that is some one they recognize and need. other times I'm a complete stranger to them.

I agree that straight up APs and OBEs and even RV have a completely different feel to them. But I so far haven't found anything there that I haven't accessed through lucid dreams and much more efficiently.