Raduga's Phase is LD-ing, not OBE!

[Xanth]

But apart theorizations, the differences, apart technical, are in the experience produced and what you can do in there.

Some people have been tooting that... but in MY experience, the experience produced is only different due to the type of mind you have active (conscious or subconscious, or some combination of the two) and what you can do in the experience is identical to both.

So I'm interested to know, in your opinion what's different about the "experience produced" and what can you do in one experience that you can not do in the other?

[Xanth]

Pauli, lemme ask you this... what if those authors are wrong?  I mean, sure, they have their published books (a fact that is meaningless to me, I've learned more from unpublished people than published)... they have their own experiential data to draw from.  Then we have the other side of the discussion...

But really, we all have to keep an open mind about *ALL* of this stuff.  I haven't seen any evidence that shows conclusively one way or the other... HOWEVER, my own direct experiences have pushed me off the fence into one distinct direction on the subject.

So really... Pauli, what happens if your authors are wrong? 
And what effect will that have upon your practices of Astral Projection?

Pauli, I was wondering if you could provide a quick answer for my above question I asked you that you missed. 

[Summerlander]

Well, according to my experience, they seems to be not. So called LDs require REM (or either nREM), so called OBEs not.

There are also studies that share this point of view:

"Many OBEs take place when the person is wide awake, and physiological studies show that experimental OBEs are associated with a relaxed waking state similar to drownsiness, but not deep sleep and certainly not REM sleep". (S. Blackmore)

The main difference seems to be on the way the experience is produced. Blanke has made some studies within, where OBEs can be produced from a full awake state if a vestibular sensation is stimulated outside the boundaries of the body.

But apart theorizations, the differences, apart technical, are in the experience produced and what you can do in there.

Following Raduga methods you can reach the experience only with sleep, so you have no other references to compare the experience to. Then the experiences can either be the same (also if they look different in practice in many points, but they can be so only in appearance) but Pauli is right on the fact that Raduga has not enough parameters to declare the thing one way or the other, since he uses only a way to approach the experience, and that way is not what the term "OBE" really encompass.

So him saying "I've *proven* they are all the same" it's a litte presumptuos at best, since he experienced only a part of the question.

Selea...Susan Blackmore knows jack. Also, it could still be the same thing but just a matter of using the left or the right parts of the brain. By the way, try to tell that to Bedeekin with the sleep method when he clearly induces both Mode 1 and Mode 2 by employing pre-sleep.

OOBEs/AP/LD (the Phase - to use the broad term) happen in REM! They do not happen in delta sleep! Dreams that happen outside of the REM stage are vague and thoughts-like.

Here's something relevant from that Lucidity link:

"The vivid body and world of the OBE is made possible by our brain's marvellous ability to create fully convincing images of the world, even in the absence of sensory information. This process is witnessed by each of us every night in our dreams. Indeed, all dreams could be called OBEs in that in them we experience events and places quite apart from the real location and activity of our bodies."

Also, OOBEs can be triggered from SP, which indicates the transition into REM sleep, and hence muscle atonia is activated to prevents us from acting out our...DREAMS!

I think you also need to revise my posts in the other LD versus OBE thread that Pauli2 opened. Sheesh...

[Volgerle]

The main difference seems to be on the way the experience is produced. Blanke has made some studies within, where OBEs can be produced from a full awake state if a vestibular sensation is stimulated outside the boundaries of the body.

Just like Blackmore, Blanke is mere close-minded pseudo-science. And no, if you look closely, in one experiment (see link where we discussed it) they did NOT even re-create OBEs or APs, rather they created mere optical/tactile illusions, with computers and cyberspace goggles. Brain stimulation can of course bring Altered States of Consciousness, but so can drugs, meditation. The problem is that we have to differentiate between the INDUCTION/TRIGGER of an altered state and the EXPERIENCE itself.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/obes_just_a_product_of_a_confused_mind-t33253.0.html;msg274017#msg274017

[Pauli2]

OOBEs/AP/LD (the Phase - to use the broad term) happen in REM! They do not happen in delta sleep!

Too bad that you are wrong. In Monroe's own words, at 5:30 - 6:40 in this radio interview,
OBE to Focus 23 - Focus 27 has brain waves resembling delta sleep (stage 4):

Monroe about - OBEs with brain waves resembling delta sleep

Real OBEs, not REM sleep LDs.

[Xanth]

Pauli, have you ruled out *ALL* other possibilities then?

As I asked you above that you plainly ignored... what happens to you if your authors are wrong?

[Selea]

Or did he? You can have OOBEs from REM too, from SP.

Those are not what I consider true OBEs.

Of course an LD will never feel like an OOBE. OOBEs feel real, 3D and so on. But if they are total different phenomena, what's the big difference? 

The difference is what you can do in them.

[Selea]

Some people have been tooting that... but in MY experience, the experience produced is only different due to the type of mind you have active (conscious or subconscious, or some combination of the two) and what you can do in the experience is identical to both.

If the "type of mind" is different the experience cannot be identical. Naturally to notice this difference you have to do something specific when you are "out" and not having a sort of passive approach on the experience, or you will probably not notice it, not "utilizing" it.

For example the demarcation of the "planes" is much more evident in OBEs, as it is the ability to be in control of what it happens.

It is difficult for me to relate the differences to you because I dont' know specifically what you do and don't do when you are "out", so we can have a completely different terminology. Depending on what you "do" the the differences can be, indeed, none (or almost none), or a lot.

[Selea]

Selea...Susan Blackmore knows jack. Also, it could still be the same thing but just a matter of using the left or the right parts of the brain. By the way, try to tell that to Bedeekin with the sleep method when he clearly induces both Mode 1 and Mode 2 by employing pre-sleep.

I already discussed the approaches before, it seems to me, and their differences, isn't it? What you call pre-sleep it's always a sleep method as in approach one.  

Then I used S. Blackmore quote to evidentiate the differences from a purely ECG patter view. That quote was just coming from evidence from physiological studies as by Tart, Blanke etc.

OOBEs/AP/LD (the Phase - to use the broad term) happen in REM! They do not happen in delta sleep! Dreams that happen outside of the REM stage are vague and thoughts-like.

OBEs (or what I call so), again, don't happen in REM. You are not asleep when you have a real OBE (or anyway what I call an OBE myself). You (or your physical body) are not asleep at all, differently from LDs.

This is the difference you don't get.

"The vivid body and world of the OBE is made possible by our brain's marvellous ability to create fully convincing images of the world, even in the absence of sensory information. This process is witnessed by each of us every night in our dreams. Indeed, all dreams could be called OBEs in that in them we experience events and places quite apart from the real location and activity of our bodies."

I don't argue that. It can be that the "dream body" is just a subconscious image of ourself, naturally.

However there are three different ways to approach this experience, and two of them (the most powerful) don't require sleep at all and, especially in approach three, the "body" is not existent before but created by you.

Also, OOBEs can be triggered from SP, which indicates the transition into REM sleep, and hence muscle atonia is activated to prevents us from acting out our...DREAMS!

I don't consider them OBEs, they are still LDs for me. Your consciousness and the way you can use the same is different in them.

I don't either like to use the term OBE in reality because it usually denotes an experience that has already some wrong boundaries setted (for how I see it), or that sometimes denotes a thing completely different of what I'm speaking about now, but in this case I have to.

I think you also need to revise my posts in the other LD versus OBE thread that Pauli2 opened. Sheesh...

I've read them. Still, what you say is all coming from people that just experienced approach one, usually.

[Selea]

Just like Blackmore, Blanke is mere close-minded pseudo-science. And no, if you look closely, in one experiment (see link where we discussed it) they did NOT even re-create OBEs or APs, rather they created mere optical/tactile illusions, with computers and cyberspace goggles. Brain stimulation can of course bring Altered States of Consciousness, but so can drugs, meditation. The problem is that we have to differentiate between the INDUCTION/TRIGGER of an altered state and the EXPERIENCE itself.

The intention of that study was not to recreate a "full" OBE, but to demonstrate that a vestibular sensation outside the boundaries of the physical can produce a total different "image" of it.

Then the different "induction/trigger" is what differentiate the "experience/result", so there's no difference in there. In fact, the most trouble (and the terms being used interchangeably and in wrong ways, so that now they have no real sense no more) is because people are differentiating the two, when they shouldn't.

Alas, this happens because people (especially of a certain type) always experience only what they care to then they think they necessarily know already the rest. It would be like pretending that since you know how to drive a car in the city with assists you would automatically be a rally driver.

[astraladdict]

I'm with pauli on this one, LD's are NOT OBE's. When LD, your brain is in a different frequency causing you to be conscious and in control of your DREAM. When OBE you are transferring your consciousness over to an energy body. Get it? Good, i though so! : )

~astraladdict

[Ssergiu]

Those are not what I consider true OBEs.

WHAT? Then what are those? LOL. What's the difference between REM oobes and "true" OOBEs? What can you do in "true" OOBEs" and not in REM OOBEs?

The difference is what you can do in them.

Indeed, but in essence they're the same one thing. When you are in an LD you just need to break out of the dream reality and you're in an OOBE already. As I've said, it is like a pie, it depends how much sugar you put in it. They'll have different tastes, but it still is just a pie.

I'm with pauli on this one, LD's are NOT OBE's. When LD, your brain is in a different frequency causing you to be conscious and in control of your DREAM. When OBE you are transferring your consciousness over to an energy body. Get it? Good, i though so! : )

There's no energy body in fact. I've had OOBEs in which I did not have body at all. I was just consciousness! As you do not need a silver cord in an OOBE or dreams or whatever, you do not need a body either. There's no actual separation either.

More details here:
http://astralviewers.com/obeap-chat/oobes-ld%27s-dreams/
If you cannot access the site
http://portaltoconsciousness.blogspot.com/2011/06/oobes-lds-dreams.html
Also what I mean by level of awareness can also be the idea of the consciousness / subconsciousness taking over, that Xanth told us about.

[Pauli2]

What's the difference between REM oobes and "true" OOBEs? What can you do in "true" OOBEs" and not in REM OOBEs?

I hate to repeat myself so you will have to read this locked thread about LDs are not OBEs.

There are several skilled people, who have noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Campbell, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.

[Ssergiu]

I hate to repeat myself so you will have to read this locked thread about LDs are not OBEs.

There are several skilled people, who have noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Campbell, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.

I did not say anything about LD's, but OOBEs. Also, there are 432894209 christians and I still do not believe in their religion. No matter how many they are and how many miracles there are. Those authors can't change something I am totally sure of. Saying the difference between them is just what you can do is stupid. Of course, the terms OOBEs, LD's, dreams can be used as a metaphor for what you are experiencing/able to do, but that's not a good reason why they are different. You're playing with water, what you do with it can have different names, but in essence they all are water.

You could as well suggest me authors that say you need to work on chakras, pray to weird Gods, make useless rituals, do some energy exercises and then you can OOBE! You do not need to read a lot before experiencing an OOBE. As Bedeekin said, that's like saying "Now I've read all I can read on UFO's, now it's time to see one!"

Dreams < LD's < OOBE
|             |           |
|             |           |
--same phenomena--
Different abilities/feelings/awareness though.

[Astral316]

I did not say anything about LD's, but OOBEs. Also, there are 432894209 christians and I still do not believe in their religion. No matter how many they are and how many miracles there are. Those authors can't change something I am totally sure of. Saying the difference between them is just what you can do is stupid. Of course, the terms OOBEs, LD's, dreams can be used as a metaphor for what you are experiencing/able to do, but that's not a good reason why they are different. You're playing with water, what you do with it can have different names, but in essence they all are water.

You could as well suggest me authors that say you need to work on chakras, pray to weird Gods, make useless rituals, do some energy exercises and then you can OOBE! You do not need to read a lot before experiencing an OOBE. As Bedeekin said, that's like saying "Now I've read all I can read on UFO's, now it's time to see one!"

Dreams < LD's < OOBE
|             |           |
|             |           |
--same phenomena--
Different abilities/feelings/awareness though.

Well said. But it's obvious OP is covering his ears shouting "LALALALLALA CAN'T HEAR YOU... LALALALALA.... OBES DIFFERENT FROM LDS... LALALALLALALALA" so I doubt you're accomplishing much breaking it down in simple terms. Some people just need for something to be true and will only believe the evidence that backs it up...

Like Campbell said... beliefs are what create the difference between LD and OBE.

[Xanth]

Well said. But it's obvious OP is covering his ears shouting "LALALALLALA CAN'T HEAR YOU... LALALALALA.... OBES DIFFERENT FROM LDS... LALALALLALALALA" so I doubt you're accomplishing much breaking it down in simple terms. Some people just need for something to be true and will only believe the evidence that backs it up...

Like Campbell said... beliefs are what create the difference between LD and OBE.

Pretty much.

And because there's nothing new going on AND this is pretty much a repeat performance of the last thread started by the OP... I'm gonna be nice and give this thread one more day before it's done.

[blis]

I dont know where this trend of saying everything is the same came from. Sure they're similar experiences but there ARE differences. Might as well get rid of focus levels next - whats the point in differentiating?

[Xanth]

I dont know where this trend of saying everything is the same came from. Sure they're similar experiences but there ARE differences. Might as well get rid of focus levels next - whats the point in differentiating?

Personally, I've already ditched the Focus Models.  Both of them.
They're not bad for starting out, but eventually you have to move beyond someone else's model and find your own way.

As for the bolded part (my emphasis), I see no point in differentiating them. 
They're ALL experiences that happen not in this physical reality... that's really all that's important.

[dotster]

I don't know where this trend of saying everything is the same came from.

Perhaps it is because people still look at the world and see separation instead of unity. How could one perceive unity/singularity when they can't let go of duality?

Sure they're similar experiences but there ARE differences. Might as well get rid of focus levels next - whats the point in differentiating?

There is no point in differentiating other than to relay a certain aspect of a whole that is perceived to be different.

Hey look it's a one  ---> 1

Here is a two (which is two ones) ---> 2

You can add, subtract, multiply or divide that 2 and that 1 any way that you want but in the end it is still going to be a number.

[Summerlander]

Well said, dotster! As Ssergiu pointed out as well, there is no energy bodies in what I call Mode 1 OOBE until you start to manifest one of some kind which usually leads to a perceived Mode 2 OOBE. While the Mode 1 environment APPEARS to match the physical realm very closely, Mode 2 would be where so-called "astral projections" and lucid dreams take place. They are all connected and there is no denying that from one, you can phase into the next.

Despite those distinctions and labels, however, I cannot say with a 100% certainty that there is a real difference! Why can't Mode 1 and Mode 2 be two sides of the same coin? Don't we have two brain hemispheres which appear to deal with (or could be viable expressions of) the realistic (logical) and the surreal (imaginative)? And, of course, we have the corpus callosum that unites them...

By the way, Anton posted this on obe4u.com which is far more riliable and provides food for thought in the right direction:

"Imaging transitions in consciousness: Neural correlates of lucid dreaming

Martin Dresler

Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry, Sleep Research, Munich, Germany
Common categorizations of consciousness distinguish between basal and higher-order aspects of this multifaceted concept. Basal consciousness comprises perceptions and sensations, whereas higher-order consciousness constitutes reflections on these perceptions. In rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, ordinary dreaming comprises only basal aspects of consciousness. There is conscious perception of dream content but higher-order aspects of consciousness are usually absent: The person does not realize that he is dreaming and has no perception of the self as an agent endowed with intentionality and free will. Higher-order consciousness therefore seems to be bound to wakefulness. However, a special type of dreaming - referred to as "lucid dreaming" - is characterized by full-blown consciousness, including all higher-order aspects: The dreamer is able to reflect on his state of consciousness and realizes that he is dreaming. Using a combined fMRI/EEG approach, we could reveal neural activity related to the genesis of higher-order consciousness by contrasting ordinary REM sleep with physiologically verified lucid REM sleep. We find increased activation in a range of neo-cortical regions, including bilateral precuneus, cuneus and parietal, prefrontal and occipito-temporal cortices, to be related to this categorical shift in consciousness. This activation shows remarkable overlap with neo-cortical regions that have highest expansion in humans relative to non-human primates."

http://www.mpipks-dresden.mpg.de/~codybs09/POSTER_ABSTRACTS/dresler.html

"Sleep. 2009 Sep 1;32(9):1191-200.
Lucid dreaming: a state of consciousness with features of both waking and non-lucid dreaming.

Voss U, Holzmann R, Tuin I, Hobson JA.

JW Goethe-Universität Frankfurt, Bonn, Germany. u.voss@uni-bonn.de

STUDY OBJECTIVES: The goal of the study was to seek physiological correlates of lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is a dissociated state with aspects of waking and dreaming combined in a way so as to suggest a specific alteration in brain physiology for which we now present preliminary but intriguing evidence. We show that the unusual combination of hallucinatory dream activity and wake-like reflective awareness and agentive control experienced in lucid dreams is paralleled by significant changes in electrophysiology. DESIGN: 19-channel EEG was recorded on up to 5 nights for each participant. Lucid episodes occurred as a result of pre-sleep autosuggestion. SETTING: Sleep laboratory of the Neurological Clinic, Frankfurt University. PARTICIPANTS: Six student volunteers who had been trained to become lucid and to signal lucidity through a pattern of horizontal eye movements. MEASUREMENTS AND RESULTS: Results show lucid dreaming to have REM-like power in frequency bands delta and theta, and higher-than-REM activity in the gamma band, the between-states-difference peaking around 40 Hz. Power in the 40 Hz band is strongest in the frontal and frontolateral region. Overall coherence levels are similar in waking and lucid dreaming and significantly higher than in REM sleep, throughout the entire frequency spectrum analyzed. Regarding specific frequency bands, waking is characterized by high coherence in alpha, and lucid dreaming by increased delta and theta band coherence. In lucid dreaming, coherence is largest in frontolateral and frontal areas. CONCLUSIONS: Our data show that lucid dreaming constitutes a hybrid state of consciousness with definable and measurable differences from waking and from REM sleep, particularly in frontal areas."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19750924
http://www.journalsleep.org/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=27567

I think there is a lot of people mistaking the term "out-of-body experience" for "out-of-body state". There is no proof of the latter while the first one is pragmatic in itself. It is indicating that it is an experience and does NOT affirm, in any way, that one really leaves the body. You might as well consider dreams as being OOBEs too as they give you the sensation that you are no longer laying in bed.

One cannot really claim that OOBEs and LDs are completely different states! Especially when in an LD, one can create a realistic OOBE from desire. Also, I guarantee you that, even if you manage to induce an OOBE without having the pre-sleep that primes you, you will still enter the sleep state (GUARANTEED!). I'll tell you the difference between 'launching' from having the pre-sleep/nap and doing it from not having it. With the pre-nap, you can consciously enter REM sleep within 10 minutes when you go down to induce (due to the sleep inertia). WITHOUT the pre-sleep/nap, you normally wait around for a maximum of 90 minutes (especially when the adenosine levels are low during the day). Conclusion: the sleep/nap primer provides a short-cut!

Other than that, they are both entries into the same world: the Phase.

Period. I have no reason to believe otherwise! None whatsoever!

But I understand why certain people allow themselves to be swayed by bias...

[Xanth]

Summerlander, as Pauli is doing, you're wasting your breath. 

[Summerlander]

Don't worry.  That's the last of me posting here.  I really don't see the difference between OOBEs and lucid dreams.  As I said to Ssergiu before, I have experienced the prominence and the absence of vibrations in both (vibrations are irrelevant anyway as I consider them to be a physiological symptom).  All I see is the different ways of entering the Phase (before, during, or after sleep) and the fact that sometimes anomalies are prominent in familiar surroundings (or environments are completely strange altogether) OR the environment appears to be congruent with the waking world (or anomalies have not been spotted).  Other than that, that's it!  The possibility that in one realm anything can manifest from belief and expectation still stands. I call it the Phase.

Just thought of something else too! Eyes water and may even crust during sleep, so, when one wakes up, he may find that vision is blurred. Isn't it funny that when you separate from the body sometimes, you are partially blind as though there is this dirty veil over your face or vision is fragmented?  It just goes to show how anything can manifest in the Phase from the slightest bit of doubt or expectation.  Sometimes the separation can feel as though one has moved physically and an individual may experience a brief doubt as to whether he was successful at the Phase entry or not.  This could well be the cause of blurred vision in the Phase - things can stem from doubt/belief/expectation even if it is for a brief moment!  Done!

[ether2]

i think i see whats goin on here

anyway NO, OBe's are not LD's...this is clear to those at a height of consciousness/abilities...

and OBe's never will be in any shape or form of a LD/s...

LD's are just like a movie/script that are made up of projection of ya mini me's (i call it) that can/were (areas pending-controlled now ) be played out in the real world, not OBe man impossiable...

LD's are just to show ya (schooling) what ya real dreams do as they (dreams) play a big part in the outcome of this world as in it is the script (how it's played out), fact to those in the know...

it's just a schooling (LD's) to see if ya f* around or not with shlt ya shouldnt thats all Ld's are (schooling/TEST), for when/are (areas-now) we human are to take controll of the worlds workings in a full not half (Ld's to some) conscious state...

when ya understand the effect of ya dreams (sleeping) have (scripts) you will understand what i'm say'n, as it's just teaching ya how this world does/can work, thats all man...

remember schooling, the effect of dreams on the world the effect LD's "CAN" have on the world and then their are the thoughts ya only have to look at self help books that teach ya how to manifest as in loud voice repeating words/phrases ya get the idea of it (some will), and then their are ya silent speaking/thoughts can and one day will have the same effect as the dreams do, it's just a gradeing/developement of the mind, it's all determined by ya height of consciousness/abilities. described how to get their as in the height of height of consciousnesson on my website...

on average:
dreams powerful
Ld's less powerful
talking (loud voice) less powerfuller
thought less powerfuller again

untill ya develope ya consciosness...Love All

then what someone can say is what happens when we are running the system in a full conscious state (not dreams) (in the pipe line now and happening in areas) and the dreams are no-longer doing this, hay thats a really good point and the answer is is umm not 100% sure "yet" so i wont say it, but it will be more on the personal side (one-self) as against as a whole/part effect on part/everyone, then someone can say if it effects one it effects all, yes but no-see...

hay Xanth ya going to delete this one as well ...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

I'll delete you ether!    

[astraladdict]

We are slowly drifting into another dark time on the Pulse...