I apologize in advanced for the length of this, but I feel it was necessary to fully get my point across.
So it seems to be the general idea that hatred lowers the frequencies of ones vibrations and such. I figure I would put my point of view out there and see what others think about it.
To me, hate is just another human emotion. Hate, is different from anger. I think people seem to get the idea that hate lowers vibrations because of how hate is generally percieved/affects most people. My stance is, hate is a very powerful emotion, meaning it can cause extreme instability in those who can't effectively handle it and therefore LEAD to lower vibrations. One who has enough control, for example, through a lot of meditation, can better handle such a power emotion without letting it lead to impulsive destructiveness. The same goes for anger, sadness, etc, any other emotion.
The reason most people are unable to handle hatred and other negative emotions is because it is neglected all our lives.... because of how it is viewed from a political and societal viewpoint. Our society is founded upon peace and tranquility and hatred accomplishes practically nothing IN THIS SOCIETY AND WAY OF LIFE. Imagine a society in which the foundation is hatred(I am not saying this is "good"), where hatred is synonymous to happiness and peace in our society. It's all subjective. In this type of society, peace and love is neglected and so for millions of years the biological organisms of that society develop to deal with their primary emotions, hatred and other negatives, etc. Because of how their brains are developed, emotions like happiness would not be handled well and would therefore lower their vibrations.
What I am getting at is vibrations are independent of emotions, yet because of our biological development and evolution, our bodies naturally function in a way that hatred and other negative emotions lower our vibrations because of the complexity of our brain areas that deal with them. Our brain areas related to positive emotions are MUCH more complex and stable and therefor can more easily distribute the power in positive emotions, making it healthy for the body. The same applies for hate, but the power and energy of hate originates from the same place of body/brain as the other emotions(obviously), therefor are similar in power and this poweful emotion attempts to traverse such an underdeveloped circuit in the brain which can lead to disastrous effects on the body.There is such a thing as healthy hate, but it is rare in the average person because of the aforementioned reasons. Vibrations are all about energy.... Think of it as....humans can withstand a certain amount of electricity without being harmed, but for much smaller underdeveloped animals, that same amount of electricity can cause damage because they are not developed enough.
I don't think any particular emotion lowers ones vibrations, but inability to handle the mechanics of the emotion and the strength of the emotion in general is what leads to lower vibrations.
Sure someone with extremely powerful vibrations does not easily experience hatred or anger, but I think this is because of the emotional detachment from the physical realm that is formed through extremely high vibrations, meditation in general,etc... causes hatred to be pointless in general, and they have an overall bliss that transcends happiness and pretty much all emotions in general......REMEMBER, BLISS IS A HIGHER VIBRATORY 'FEELING'... while it's not technically an emotion, more of a state of mind resulting from electrical activity in the brain. Happiness is on the same vibratory level as hatred, but again, it's all about how we handle the emotion in our brains. People tend to think lots of meditation makes them happy, sort of, but not really. While lots of meditation makes the happiness emotion stronger, it also makes hatred stronger, though what people are mainly experiencing from extended meditation is BLISS. BLISS IS NOT AN EMOTION. Emotions come from chemicals. Bliss comes from the electrical activity and balance brought on by those chemicals. Meaning electrical synchronicity can be better formed by positive emotions because of that area of the brains development, while negative emotions can lower vibrations and synchronicity of the brains electrical activity BECAUSE of that area of the brains development. Meaning if the hatred area of the brain was as developed and structured as the happiness area then hatred as an emotion would also result in extreme synchronicity in brain electrical activity resulting in bliss from hatred, therefor higher vibrations.
From what I've perceived and understand, people come to the conclusion that Hatred and other negative emotions lower ones vibrations because of the observed association..... It's kind of like saying, not brushing your teeth directly causes your teeth to rot and build up plaque, etc.... but this is not the case. It is not neglecting to brush your teeth that causes plaque to build up, but the fact that there is grimy filth on your teeth. The fact that you don't brush your teeth has nothing to do with tooth rot etc, what it does have to do with is if you clean your teeth in some general method. This may not be the best example, so I may edit the post and try to think of a better one.
...more or less it's like saying because {this} is very closely associated with [this] through |this| than {this} and [this] are directly connected, when this is not the case because |this| is directly involved.
Now you can try to fill in the blanks are such:
{this} = Hate/Other Negative emotion
|this| = Person with inability to effectively handle/deal with {this}
[this] = Negative vibrations.
See what I'm getting at?
The same applies to all the "positive" emotions. Yes they can raise vibrations but this is because of the human ability to deal with them. Hate and other 'negative emotions' can also produce positive feelings if delt with effectively, but when delt with inefficiently they can result in negative feelings because of the negative associations and the overwhelming power of the emotion. Also, I should clarify, Negative Feelings, and Negative Emotions are 2 totally different things. Negative feelings are a human experience. Negative emotions are a classification based on Negative feelings, which is inaccurate because no emotion is Negative or Positive in nature, most people just classify them as negative or positive emotions based on the feeling they create in most individuals, WHICH IS FAULTY REASONING, because an emotion is no longer negative if it produces positive feelings.
High vibrations have to do with Positive FEELINGS, not Positive Emotions. Positive emotions though often result in positive feelings, as Negative emotions often result in negative feelings which negative feelings are of lower vibrations. What people aren't accounting for is the intermediate, the middle man so to speak. There is no such thing as positive or negative emotions, only positive and negative feelings. Negative Feelings = Low Vibrations. Negative Emotions can be high or low vibrations depending on the person. People tend to get emotions and feelings mixed up and this is one of the BIGGEST MISTAKES. There's no such thing as negative or positive emotions, only negative and positive feelings, and simply emotions. Whether an emotion produces negative or positive feelings is subjective to the person and their ability to handle the emotion.
To much of any energy can have negative results, overstimulation, etc. It has to do with the power that accompanies hate and how we deal with it in comparison to the power that accompanies... say compassion and how we deal with it mentally.
Please respond with your opinions and WHY you believe so. If you simply respond with your opinion and say that I am wrong while providing no sort of reasoning then I will ignore your post completely because I don't have time to argue with someone who founds their ideas on nothing.
Sorry for the essay(lol), I'm just trying to fully get my idea across and hopefully those who are open minded will think about it and what I have said.
First of all I felt compelled to reply, not because I disagree with the view of vibrational rate having anything to do with emotions, but becasue the way I see hate portrayed here, and I feel I have to respond to a few things that jumped out at me.
First, I am one of those people that believes the idea of vibrational rate is misapplied all the time by metaphysical authors. I don't think vibrational rate (that is, how high or low vibratory rate is in relation to emotions) applies in any way, especially when I'm not sure what they even mean by this. Do they mean a high rate is preferable to a low rate? Why? Are they talking about the energy body? Which one, the etheric, astal or mental bodies? How can anyone know what their vibrational rate is, or even if there is one?
There have been studies about vibrational rhythm of several systems in the body (I believe it was the Heartmath Institute) which showed that when the heart rate entrained to brainwaves and all organs entrained, there was a general improved health (IIRC) but this has nothing to do with higher or lower vibrations. In this case higher is not better.
Etc. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I want to speak to the general idea of what 'hate' is, and how it's used in this post.
QuoteTo me, hate is just another human emotion. Hate, is different from anger.
In what way? When you feel anger, you are not satisfied with another person or situation because the conditions are not to your approval. But how is hate different than anger? Please explain.
QuoteThe reason most people are unable to handle hatred and other negative emotions is because it is neglected all our lives.... because of how it is viewed from a political and societal viewpoint.
I disagree completely. As part of a competitive capitalist society, we are told ever since we're young that we have to be better than our (brother/sister/cousin/playmate) and this goes on all throughout our education. We are graded in comparison to each other, and we are always told that we have to be better, and emotionally (and sometimes physically punished) when we don't want to compete. Children are often punished by violence when they act violent towards each other, and then made to feel guilty when they express their anger.
Our society does not nurture our positive human emotions, they nurture competition, and make fun of people who care and love, hence the expressions "tree huggers" and animal right activists are considered some sort of cartoon characters. Anyone who expouses peace and love are called "fluffy bunnies", etc.
It is known that when anger and hate aren't properly dealt with it causes all kinds of diseases in the body like ulcers, high blood pressure and even cancer- maybe some say "it lowers vibration" because it's the anger we feel when things don't go right. It's a label, based on observation.
QuoteThere is such a thing as healthy hate
I disagree, and it goes back to the first question I asked. Anger is a natural emotion that happens when things don't go right- it is a reaction like any other emotion- but hate is what happens when anger is not addressed in some way- hate is the application of anger towards negative action- to hate someone is to wish them harm, or to be driven to do harm, and there is no healthy hate. It is like someone said- "taking poison and hoping it kills the other person".
There is healthy anger, and if channeled properly anger can be used to improve conditions so that this frustration is not felt any more, but hate has nothing productive about it, and the key here is survival.
Society doesn't decide what emotion is right and what emotion is wrong, evolution does. An organism who can't take an emotion like anger and channel it to improve their conditions, and instead let it turn into hate, has less chances or surviving in the long run.
Quotehatred accomplishes practically nothing IN THIS SOCIETY
Or any society, because a society is simply a bunch of people deciding to live together with the goal or survival as it's primary purpose, and hatred accomplishes nothing to further that goal.
Another thing- feelings and emotions are two words for the same thing, there is no difference. Emotions is the scientific term, while feelings is the 'common' name for the same things, and the reason that some emotions are seen as positive and some are seen as negative has to do with the level of evolutionary development. That is, when a baby is nurtured by the mother (as opposed to ignored or even abused) the prefrontal cortex develops more, possibly because a baby that is loved will evolutionarily be expected to live longer than one which is not- and a prefrontal cortex is something that is seen in 'new world mammals', more notably humans, and this part of the brain is where the language and rational thinking happens- so a loved baby will generally be smarter than a baby that is not cuddled and taken care of by the mother.
So there is an association with "positive" emotion and survivability- the loved babies have a better survival rate.
QuoteIn what way? When you feel anger, you are not satisfied with another person or situation because the conditions are not to your approval. But how is hate different than anger? Please explain.
By hate I mean an overall hatred/intellectual disgust with something. I can hate someone or a group for doing something but that does not mean I am angry at them. To me, anger accompanies more negative 'feelings', anger is what causes health issues, high blood pressure, etc, hate does not. Anger is more of a momentary stress-based reaction.
QuoteI disagree completely. As part of a competitive capitalist society, we are told ever since we're young that we have to be better than our (brother/sister/cousin/playmate) and this goes on all throughout our education. We are graded in comparison to each other, and we are always told that we have to be better, and emotionally (and sometimes physically punished) when we don't want to compete. Children are often punished by violence when they act violent towards each other, and then made to feel guilty when they express their anger.
Our society does not nurture our positive human emotions, they nurture competition, and make fun of people who care and love, hence the expressions "tree huggers" and animal right activists are considered some sort of cartoon characters. Anyone who expouses peace and love are called "fluffy bunnies", etc.
Yes I do see what you mean when you say society encourages competition, but this is not what I meant. When was the last time you walked into a store or anywhere and were instantly greeted with intense hate and anger? It rarely happens, because OUR society can not function like this. One could easily imagine up a society where constant and persistent hateful emotions are required to participate in said society, but something like this happening on its own is unlikely.
Quote
It is known that when anger and hate aren't properly dealt with it causes all kinds of diseases in the body like ulcers, high blood pressure and even cancer- maybe some say "it lowers vibration" because it's the anger we feel when things don't go right. It's a label, based on observation.
It is true, anger does cause "all kinds of diseases in the body like ulcers, high blood pressure and even cancer" VERY TRUE.
Hate, does not. You must take into account what about anger causes these things.... stress. Hate, does not have to be with stress. I can be in a state of pure bliss and still hate something. To me, hate is an intellectual decision based off reasoning and choice. Anger is a reaction from the inability to handle the inconviencies that has come up. It's biologically and functionally impossible to be in a state of bliss while being angry. While it is EXTREMELY possible to exist in a state of bliss while having intense hatred for things, yet while being perfectly relaxed and having no stress. Stress is what causes those problems you have stated above. Anger is a form of stress in my opinion.
QuoteI disagree, and it goes back to the first question I asked. Anger is a natural emotion that happens when things don't go right- it is a reaction like any other emotion- but hate is what happens when anger is not addressed in some way- hate is the application of anger towards negative action- to hate someone is to wish them harm, or to be driven to do harm, and there is no healthy hate. It is like someone said- "taking poison and hoping it kills the other person".
There is healthy anger, and if channeled properly anger can be used to improve conditions so that this frustration is not felt any more, but hate has nothing productive about it, and the key here is survival.
Society doesn't decide what emotion is right and what emotion is wrong, evolution does. An organism who can't take an emotion like anger and channel it to improve their conditions, and instead let it turn into hate, has less chances or surviving in the long run.
I can be happy and still be hateful to someone. Or hateful about something. I can have a smile on my face and feel good with my emotions and tell someone that I hate them, or I have hate for them, or I have hate for something they did. This, is healthy hate, healthy in terms of the absence of biological stress on the person doing the hating.
While anger IS a reaction to when things don't go right, it is merely a form of stress. Through much meditation I find that I no longer get angry about things. This does not mean I can not develop hate off a willful decision. If someone murdered my family right now, I would not get angry, though I would hate them. Anger is a stress based biological response, hate is a viewpoint towards something based on reasoning. When was the last time you saw someone who was "Angry" with a non-fake smile on their face? Never, because it is impossible, it is a conflict of emotions. Now, all the time I see and meet people who hate other things while maintaining happy moods and attitudes. See where I am going?
Now, you're saying feelings and emotions are separate things, if so then please classify how I have differentiated anger and hate above because perhaps I may have confused my mind on the difference between the words "feelings" and "emotions".... but it's very clear that there IS a difference between anger and hate.
Also, I'll admit that my description on vibrations it sort of lacking... though the way I see it, I tend to see someone exhibiting blissful feelings, overall being more in control of their being as having higher vibrations. Anger, makes people lose control, or lowers their control level. Hate does not. Though this does NOT mean that someone can't be angry and hate someone at the same time. This is what I talked about so much in the first post.... Anger is the result of uncontrolled/unmanaged hate as a result of that area of the brain not being well developed and the person can't handle the hate and it's associations. Think of it this way, if you overload ANYTHING, it's going to be stressed. Anger is a stressful response. Hate is an intellectual decision, or a choice based on whatever reasoning. Anger is the result of loosing control of that hate and your overall well being. This type of example can be applied to many 'positive' emotions, though I just have a hard time imagining how since I haven't seen it... as the human capacity to handle 'positive' emotions is much much stronger and more developed and I haven't really seen a stress response from it because of the aforementioned reason... it's in our genes and our evolution. We have evolved to naturally handle positive emotions better so there is not a stressful response. Biologically, it is extremely possible to receive a stressful response 'positive' emotions if the given biological circuitry promotes the situation.... This fact can't be argued because I mean... it's mechanics.... it's just not likely to happen in humanity due to the aforementioned reasons....etc
Humans are naturally not as efficient at handling 'negative emotions' such as hate, resulting in a stressful reaction known as anger.
The thing is that when you describe 'hate' it looks more like judgement, discernment and disapproval, and that is not what hate is- It is human and healthy to see a person or situation, make the judgement that whatever they are doing isn't 'right' in one way or another, and not approve.
QuoteI can have a smile on my face and feel good with my emotions and tell someone that I hate them, or I have hate for them, or I have hate for something they did.
Once again, this doesn't sound like hate to me. I think young people today (OMG I just dated myself) confuse disapproval with hate- hate is an intense emotion that is the same as anger but multiplied- the desire to see someone else hurting. It does affect the hater more than the hated, unless the hated is physically or emotionally hurt from it. Genocide is the result of hate. This is what hate does.
It is physically impossible for someone to hate someone else and not be negatively affected by it.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 07, 2011, 12:57:10If someone murdered my family right now, I would not get angry, though I would hate them.
Really? Really though?
I agree with CF.
Based off what you say I honestly doubt you've experienced true hate... it isn't your preference towards broccoli, or the fleeting, arbitrary dislike you feel towards terrorists when watching the news. It is an internally interactive, perpetual anger directed towards something or someone... heart racing, fists clenched, body shaking kind of feeling.
And if you really didn't get angry at whoever hypothetically murdered your family, then you'd have a massive case of either denial, or dissociation. Massive.
I really hate this thread -_-
Quote from: CFTraveler on March 07, 2011, 18:45:27
The thing is that when you describe 'hate' it looks more like judgement, discernment and disapproval, and that is not what hate is- It is human and healthy to see a person or situation, make the judgement that whatever they are doing isn't 'right' in one way or another, and not approve. Once again, this doesn't sound like hate to me. I think young people today (OMG I just dated myself) confuse disapproval with hate- hate is an intense emotion that is the same as anger but multiplied- the desire to see someone else hurting. It does affect the hater more than the hated, unless the hated is physically or emotionally hurt from it. Genocide is the result of hate. This is what hate does.
It is physically impossible for someone to hate someone else and not be negatively affected by it.
Though, I would be willing to engage in genocide against the ones I hate. Whether it is a wise, intellectual decision or not is totally subjective, which I don't think it is.
You don't kill people out of disapproval. Like I said, if someone murdered my family, I would not get angry at them, though I would hate them. Chances are I would be willing to shoot/kill them too. You may think this makes me a sadistic person, or a psychopath. Though my philosophy is based around lex talionis, atleast in extreme cases(as in someone murdering my family). Most little things I would let go and forgive people, but there's a line. I try to forgive people as often as possible, but there is a certainly a limit in my opinion.
I don't grow to hate someone or something easily. For me to hate someone requires some serious wrong doing on my behalf. This is why I think ones frequency of vibrations, whatever this is interpreted as, is independent of emotions or actions, but is dependent upon how the emotion or action effects ones subjectivity.
This is exactly what I'm trying to explain... that hate.... the same hate that spawns genocides and makes people want to kill others, is independent of anger. While anger does not always accompany hate as there are certain levels of anger, uncontrolled hate always accompanies anger. Which is why you can easily misinterpret hatred as being a very intense raging emotion because that is all most people ever observe it being. When this is only the case in people with lack of control of their hate. I have experienced anger out of uncontrolled hate, but I have learned to let my happiness be independent of my hate, so the 2 can accompany each other and not diminish my well being.
hate is separation, it's a constricting dark emotion that moves you further from the light.
Quote from: Lexy on March 08, 2011, 01:17:25
hate is separation, it's a constricting dark emotion that moves you further from the light.
Where is your proof, evidence, or at the very least your reasoning?
I can understand hate being separation, separation from that which you are hating. Please clarify how it moves you further from the light exactly. I understand light to be spiritual energy, purifying almost. You say it moves you further from "the light" as if "the light" is a singular thing, an entity almost. Please explain
I used to hate broccoli but now I can't get enough of it. Maybe I'm moving closer to the light? I still hate onions though... :?
Quote from: Xtensity on March 08, 2011, 01:04:13
You don't kill people out of disapproval. Like I said, if someone murdered my family, I would not get angry at them, though I would hate them. Chances are I would be willing to shoot/kill them too.
Only emotion and inadequate brain capacity can assist an irrational decision such as murder. I doubt you think yourself mentally handicapped, so which emotion would prompt such behavior? Is it maybe a feeling that you are "suppose to" hate so you're "suppose to" want to carry out the hypothetical revenge murder? I think CFTraveler could be right again with the term "dissociation."
Quote from: Xtensity on March 08, 2011, 01:04:13
I don't grow to hate someone or something easily. For me to hate someone requires some serious wrong doing on my behalf. This is why I think ones frequency of vibrations, whatever this is interpreted as, is independent of emotions or actions, but is dependent upon how the emotion or action effects ones subjectivity.
An emotion is a subjective experience so you're contradicting yourself. Of course, one can use logic and mental exercises to control certain emotions but that's different.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 08, 2011, 01:04:13
This is exactly what I'm trying to explain... that hate.... the same hate that spawns genocides and makes people want to kill others, is independent of anger. While anger does not always accompany hate as there are certain levels of anger, uncontrolled hate always accompanies anger. Which is why you can easily misinterpret hatred as being a very intense raging emotion because that is all most people ever observe it being. When this is only the case in people with lack of control of their hate. I have experienced anger out of uncontrolled hate, but I have learned to let my happiness be independent of my hate, so the 2 can accompany each other and not diminish my well being.
People who can control their hate let it go. Honestly most of this paragraph would make more sense if the words "anger" and "hate" were switched.
Xtensity, what I see here is that you're denying the emotion of hate. It is the same emotion as anger, but intensified. You say you would not feel anger, but the fact is that you cannot feel hate without anger. That's because hate is anger that has been cultivated and focused to a very high degree. They are both degrees of the same emotion, that is honed and fed to be used when the hate is strong enough.
It is not possible to hate someone enough to kill them (and then you mentioned genocide, which is an interesting twist to this little exercise) without having so much anger that it twists your thinking process to the point of dysfunction.
Quote from: kurtykurt42 on March 08, 2011, 02:27:50
I used to hate broccoli but now I can't get enough of it. Maybe I'm moving closer to the light? I still hate onions though... :?
I hate reality shows. Not to the point of murder, but sometimes, I fantasize about sending the terminator back in time to take care of the person who first thought this was a good idea..... One can dream, can't one? :evil:
I love reality shows but I hate sitcoms. :evil:
I say I hate things all the time but its not true hate. :wink:
Your proof is that it seperates you from the expansion that is love.
You are choosing darkness over light.....
Just be aware that it does have an effect on you no matter how
You try to justify it or define it. Its a passionate dark feeling you are better off without.
QuoteI say I hate things all the time but its not true hate.
Me too. I catch all kinds of crap for it too. But everyone knows I really don't mean it.
Ok, well perhaps I might be misunderstanding/misinterpretting hate. Though, when something bothers me so much that I say I hate it, It usually does not accompany an intense rage, or even a disturbance in my blissful feeling. Maybe it's just when I truly despise something, which there are a lot of things I do. I haven't felt anger in a long time, but scenarios that used to make me "angry" in the past, no longer disturb my blissful feeling that I maintain; yet, my mental response in accordance to my thought is the same.
For instance:If someone felt up my girlfriend/wife a few years ago, I would get pretty angry and probably beat the crap out of them. Now, I would maintain my blissful feeling, and still have the desire to beat the crap out of them.
In both situations, I maintain saying that I hate the person, while in the latter, I experience no intense emotional rage or anything of the such, just what I call peaceful hate.
What else would you describe this as? Feeling happy yet still feeling the desire to beat the crap out of someone for what they did? When before all my meditation practice, this would have made be very "angry", yet still made me want to beat the crap out of them?
Quote from: Astral316 on March 08, 2011, 08:50:07
Only emotion and inadequate brain capacity can assist an irrational decision such as murder. I doubt you think yourself mentally handicapped, so which emotion would prompt such behavior? Is it maybe a feeling that you are "suppose to" hate so you're "suppose to" want to carry out the hypothetical revenge murder? I think CFTraveler could be right again with the term "dissociation."
The fact that you call murder irrational means you don't understand the true nature of human psychology. There is no such thing as rational or irrational. They are all dependent upon brain mechanics, subjectivity, etc. No one said I would
have to avenge a hypothetical murder of my family, but of course I have some emotional motivator. You might see it as an irrational action, but here is my reasoning: If someone is willing to murder your whole family and then they manage to get away with it and not be tried in court, yet you know who they are, would you let them go on the streets and live to commit more crime? Knowing they could very easily be murdering another innocent family. (Perfect example of this is the movie Law Abiding Citizen).
Anything can be rationalized on some level or another and it's all really dependent on the core emotional motivators of a person, reasoning, etc. Nothing is inherently irrational, for rationality is subjective to the human experience and perception.
Quote from: Astral316 on March 08, 2011, 08:50:07
An emotion is a subjective experience so you're contradicting yourself. Of course, one can use logic and mental exercises to control certain emotions but that's different.
I have to disagree with you on this. No one is emotionless at any level(not that you said they are). Emotions guide every decision you make whether you are aware of it or not. The subtleness of emotions stretches to the depths of the mind. It is impossible to make ANY decision without emotion being involved on some level. For logical action to be taken, there must be an emotional motivator at some level or another. Or something must be programmed as in the case of a robot. Logic always is accompanied by emotion on some level. You may realize this if you ever experience intense rage, sadness, depression, etc. They change your 'rationality'. It just shows that there is no such thing as true rationality. Your emotional state effects every choice you make, rational to us is what society has deemed, or what your normal emotional state might be.
Quote from: Astral316 on March 08, 2011, 08:50:07People who can control their hate let it go. Honestly most of this paragraph would make more sense if the words "anger" and "hate" were switched.
Again, there are apparent reasons for taking actions against someone who has wronged you, mostly to prevent it from happening to you or someone else in the future. You say this is not controlling hate? My perception is someone who doesn't do something about it, isn't controlling their fear or intimidation. Which of us is wrong? And looking back at the previous case and point, subjectivity. Neither of us are truly wrong, for no action is inherently rational or irrational.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 00:24:00
The fact that you call murder irrational means you don't understand the true nature of human psychology. There is no such thing as rational or irrational. They are all dependent upon brain mechanics, subjectivity, etc.
I meant irrational in a social context. I'm well aware that any destructive thought can make perfect sense within a single human mind if emotion and psychological makeup permits. Most people stop there because in a social context there is status quo... criminal laws... prison time if one chooses to carry out the destructive thought. Any action against one's long term freedom and survival is irrational, and prison doesn't beget survival...
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 00:24:00
No one said I would have to avenge a hypothetical murder of my family, but of course I have some emotional motivator. You might see it as an irrational action, but here is my reasoning: If someone is willing to murder your whole family and then they manage to get away with it and not be tried in court, yet you know who they are, would you let them go on the streets and live to commit more crime? Knowing they could very easily be murdering another innocent family. (Perfect example of this is the movie Law Abiding Citizen).
I saw Law Abiding Citizen and Butler's character was driven by intense rage... he wasn't thinking, "Well gee... logically if I kill my family's murderers I'll be saving an estimated 4.75 lives in the next fiscal period. Sounds like I got a job to do!"
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 00:24:00
I have to disagree with you on this. No one is emotionless at any level(not that you said they are). Emotions guide every decision you make whether you are aware of it or not. The subtleness of emotions stretches to the depths of the mind. It is impossible to make ANY decision without emotion being involved on some level. For logical action to be taken, there must be an emotional motivator at some level or another. Or something must be programmed as in the case of a robot. Logic always is accompanied by emotion on some level. You may realize this if you ever experience intense rage, sadness, depression, etc. They change your 'rationality'. It just shows that there is no such thing as true rationality. Your emotional state effects every choice you make, rational to us is what society has deemed, or what your normal emotional state might be.
Take this as an example... I get angry at someone and then my introspective self says, "Don't get heated... count to 10 and walk away." What emotion is this? Maybe the "desire to be in control of emotions" emotion? Logical thought is more clear and consistent during certain states of mind and in people who can control their emotions (ie. more introspective.) In this respect subjective logic isn't so much dependent on emotion as it's affected by it.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 00:24:00
Again, there are apparent reasons for taking actions against someone who has wronged you, mostly to prevent it from happening to you or someone else in the future. You say this is not controlling hate? My perception is someone who doesn't do something about it, isn't controlling their fear or intimidation. Which of us is wrong? And looking back at the previous case and point, subjectivity. Neither of us are truly wrong, for no action is inherently rational or irrational.
An action is irrational if you know the consequences but proceed anyway. Consequences in a society deter people from violating the civil rights of others. It's logical not to violate someone's civil rights because consequences dictate this is indirectly harmful to one's survival, correct? So you need emotion to overcome the deterrence. I doubt you can find any way around this. Remember.. we're not arguing what is rational or irrational, we're arguing if anger accompanies hate.
Astral316, instead of responding to each individual quote I will agree with you. Maybe anger does accompany hate and my bliss is just transcending it. I don't feel any compulsive anger in these situations where I want to take action against someone else.
If you're basing rationality on social laws and restrictions, that's a poor way to live, in my opinion. I do not believe all laws are fair and just. I believe many are quite restricting. My philosophy is we should all get to live and do anything we will as long as it is not intruding on another persons personal wellbeing, health, property, etc. If I want to do cocaine in my house I should be able to do so. If it gets to the point where I am doing things that harm others, then of course I should be punished.
Fearing punishment of laws for taking just action that was not fufilled by courts in order to save others lives is not irrational if you are able to evade it. (and yes I understand rage/anger/hate may be a motivator in vengeance etc)
It's like, fearing going outside because you 'may' have a tree fall on you. Are you going to say because there is potentiality for something to happen that may interfere on your ability to live and survive that the action of going outside is irrational?
The same thing applies to actions that go against various laws. There is always a risk of getting hurt with everything you do, whether small or large, therefore based on what you said about irrationality being breaking a laws, living itself is irrational. I could even say eating that cheeseburger is irrational because it may give you a heart attack.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 18:12:04Astral316, instead of responding to each individual quote I will agree with you. Maybe anger does accompany hate and my bliss is just transcending it. I don't feel any compulsive anger in these situations where I want to take action against someone else.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 18:12:04If you're basing rationality on social laws and restrictions, that's a poor way to live, in my opinion. I do not believe all laws are fair and just. I believe many are quite restricting. My philosophy is we should all get to live and do anything we will as long as it is not intruding on another persons personal wellbeing, health, property, etc. If I want to do cocaine in my house I should be able to do so. If it gets to the point where I am doing things that harm others, then of course I should be punished.
All I said was intentionally violating the civil rights of others, particularly murder, is irrational. I could've worked a moral angle on that statement, but I chose the "social laws and restrictions" angle because that's the one that produces concrete consequences. I'm certainly no saint when it comes to following laws, this is all hypothetical.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 18:12:04Fearing punishment of laws for taking just action that was not fufilled by courts in order to save others lives is not irrational if you are able to evade it. (and yes I understand rage/anger/hate may be a motivator in vengeance etc)
Fair enough.
Quote from: Xtensity on March 10, 2011, 18:12:04It's like, fearing going outside because you 'may' have a tree fall on you. Are you going to say because there is potentiality for something to happen that may interfere on your ability to live and survive that the action of going outside is irrational?
You're using an analogy where the action isn't strongly tied to the potential reaction... in other words, a small percentage of people who go outside have a tree fall on them. However, a significant percentage of murderers and other violent offenders end up going to prison. See what I'm saying? The high probability of getting caught creates deterrence. A deterrence is a stumbling block in pure logical action, so substantial emotion is needed to overcome it. What's rational or irrational in a non-criminal context is up for interpretation.
This isn't peaceful hatred, it's ego. It feels good, but it's the avoidance of a relationship. It's ignorance's bliss.
hate, like all emotions, are physical constructs for the sole purpose of emotional memory. it's a tool for survival of the physical body. i don't believe that emotion is a spiritual quality that is experienced in a fashion similar to physical reality when one is not in physical reality. so the real trick (which i believe that the buddhists taught us) is to be able to observe an emotion objectively, as a bookmark. When you avoid getting "sucked in" to the emotion you are able to make a conscious connection between the real world scenario and the emotion that is representing it. The next step then is to use these emotional bookmarks in a practical manner, which is the essence of magical ritual. On a more grounded level, these bookmarks inform our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system how to handle a given situation. This is, at it's most basic level, common to all life on earth. Humans, with our heightened ability for introspection, have the ability to take these emotional bookmarks a step further and apply the energy associated with a particular memory to a real world scenario in order to effect the outcome so that it is congruous with our intent or will. This is especially of interest to LDs and OBEs because often times the unusual symbolism we encounter in these states are meant to be emotional representations of a scenario we've encountered before. When the emotionless 'subtle body' encounters a unique situation that data is transmitted back to the body with the consciousness. In order to make "physical sense" of the scenario, our mind searches the emotional memories/bookmarks for something that is as similar as possible and interprets this new data through that perceptual filter which results in seemingly illogical symbolism. I also believe that these emotional memories are stored in the body as sensation or energy movement. So when you're doing your energy work practice, you're actually moving around emotional memories.
There are some great books on the subject, though dots have to be connected. One of the ones that influenced me the most was a book written by a guy named Lawrence Gonzales, called "Deep Survival". It's not in any way metaphysical. It's actually about how our body/mind/brain reacts in survival situations. Another good one is Malcolm Gladwell and his series of books, particularly Blink, which explains how our body makes decisions in the blink of an eye, before our conscious mind is even aware of the choices available.
So, no emotion is inherently good or bad (though I'm not necessarily disputing that these emotional memories aren't represented as vibration of some kind of energy), it's what people do with it that makes it healthy or unhealthy, ie how much they identify themselves by their emotional state, which unfortunately seems to be how most people handle emotion.
Quote from: personalreality on April 14, 2011, 11:57:32
hate, like all emotions, are physical constructs for the sole purpose of emotional memory. it's a tool for survival of the physical body. i don't believe that emotion is a spiritual quality that is experienced in a fashion similar to physical reality when one is not in physical reality. so the real trick (which i believe that the buddhists taught us) is to be able to observe an emotion objectively, as a bookmark. When you avoid getting "sucked in" to the emotion you are able to make a conscious connection between the real world scenario and the emotion that is representing it. The next step then is to use these emotional bookmarks in a practical manner, which is the essence of magical ritual. On a more grounded level, these bookmarks inform our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system how to handle a given situation. This is, at it's most basic level, common to all life on earth. Humans, with our heightened ability for introspection, have the ability to take these emotional bookmarks a step further and apply the energy associated with a particular memory to a real world scenario in order to effect the outcome so that it is congruous with our intent or will. This is especially of interest to LDs and OBEs because often times the unusual symbolism we encounter in these states are meant to be emotional representations of a scenario we've encountered before. When the emotionless 'subtle body' encounters a unique situation that data is transmitted back to the body with the consciousness. In order to make "physical sense" of the scenario, our mind searches the emotional memories/bookmarks for something that is as similar as possible and interprets this new data through that perceptual filter which results in seemingly illogical symbolism. I also believe that these emotional memories are stored in the body as sensation or energy movement. So when you're doing your energy work practice, you're actually moving around emotional memories.
There are some great books on the subject, though dots have to be connected. One of the ones that influenced me the most was a book written by a guy named Lawrence Gonzales, called "Deep Survival". It's not in any way metaphysical. It's actually about how our body/mind/brain reacts in survival situations. Another good one is Malcolm Gladwell and his series of books, particularly Blink, which explains how our body makes decisions in the blink of an eye, before our conscious mind is even aware of the choices available.
So, no emotion is inherently good or bad (though I'm not necessarily disputing that these emotional memories aren't represented as vibration of some kind of energy), it's what people do with it that makes it healthy or unhealthy, ie how much they identify themselves by their emotional state, which unfortunately seems to be how most people handle emotion.
I like this.
I do too, but actually practicing it is a different story. It is SOOOOOO hard to not put a value judgment on emotion. We just always seem to think that "positive" emotions are good and "negative" emotions are bad. I've found that if I look at positive and negative as adding and removing, things go more smoothly. So a negative emotion is an energy associated with the removal of something, whereas a positive emotion would be associated with attracting something, just like in magical ritual and phases of the moon (new to full attracts, full to new repels).