Projection and Qi/Prana depletion

[ralphm]

you may be right to some extent, however if you look at the effort needed to project -meditation, relaxation, training the mind, NEW,  maybe you end up putting in more by having the lure of projection.  Also constant projectors would find it harder to project the more they do it. All reports seem to indicate it gets easier the more you do it. In my case i have wondered why i had projection experiences at a certain stage of development rather than other phenomenon- maybe it is a path for some and not others. I also think that enlightenment comes through having a variety of human(and spiritual) experiences and not neccesarily by filling our karmic tank and taking off to nirvanaland. wouldn't that make a great theme park?

[Patty]

quote:....taking off to nirvanaland. wouldn't that make a great theme park?

hee hee hee I like that ---- though if I understand it correctly, there would only be one ride.....

I sure hope you guys figure this out. I wonder about energy storage/depletion and so on.  I  haven't worried about going to the higher realms as I feel like the astral is higher than where I usually am, so I feel like I am making progress to higher places.  But I am often depleted for a while after a projection.

Maybe you just have to keep honestly asking yourself "Am I growing" rather than asking a belief system what the right path is?

This may apply to the discussion ----

Saturday night, for the first time, as I was focusing on projecting - It didn't feel like a strain. It didn't feel like I was fighting for it. It felt more like a lightbulb went off - and I recognized that I had developed sufficient strength of some sort in order to do this. I could rest on the strength and get to the right point to project.

It was sort of like when you are lifting weights and it starts as a challenge and one day you realize you can lift the weight in a completely controlled flexion and extension, and you feel the strength of it.  So right now I think you are only helping your storage centers and pathways by the practice. (It could be that my interpretation is stage - dependant. Follow your instinct.)

Patty

[IlmariL]

"The glamour psychic abilities hold, if sought for their own sakes, provides great distraction from true spiritual progress. Instead of stripping away inner barriers between ones self and ones higher self, new barriers are created and old ones reinforced."

"Psychic abilities are side-effects of spiritual development, best not sought for their own sakes."

Both taken from Robert Bruce's Disjecta Fragmenta. But in my opinion, these 'psychic' skills are not to be completely left dormant, because it's not a life-long process to raise one's Kundalini. Also, from what it seems to me, astral travel can be of great help in enlightenment in many ways. In addition, in some articles on Kundalini (could be Robert's) it is said that Kundalini raising isn't the only way to enlightenment, there are other 'less-spiritual' and indirect ways. I am personally aiming at raising my Kundalini to it's highest point. If after that I still feel the need to actively practice the other possible skills, I will do so.

[Adam Kadmon]

ralphm: you make a good point on the apparent ease that comes with repeat projections, rather then the opposite. What may happen though is each time a person projects it might drain their reserves for the day, which would be replenished fairly quickly. If a person is taking 30 min jaunts around their astral neighborhood this wouldn't be a big deal, like having a 1/4 full gas tank. If one wanted to reach the next country or state however a full tank would be required. The apparent ease that come from practice is the development of a skill i think, not evidence that energy isn't being taken from a storage center.

IImariL: Raising kundalini may not take a lifetime for the first occaision, but from what I understand it has to be raised numerous times and mastered thoroughly, which can take a lifetime and more. In Zen buddhism a person can experience "kensho" (sudden enlightenment) in like 5 years or less, but to achieve satori (nirvana) it has to be repeatedly experienced and stablised. It all depends on how fast a person wants to develop. Personally I buy into the reincarnation/karma scheme and want to break out in this lifetime. Psychic powers I think have value as a signpost, but manipulating reality to entertain the ego only feeds the lower self.

I'm not really bashing projection. I find the astral plane a fascinating, beautiful place that inspires me and reinforces my beliefs. What I am saying however is that I think spending ones life energy endlessly exploring an infinite realm might be wasting valuable resources, when there are higher and even more perfect realities above the astral (which only require more gas to get there).

a.k.

[lucid dancer]

It's been said that we project every night. We're just not aware of this fact, because we're not concsious at the time, or we don't remember the occurance. It's totally natural for the etheric body to make a copy of itself.  I don't think a lot of energy would be wasted if we turned a boring projection into a lucid one.  Many of the places to visit can be very enlightening!

[Tom]

Weight lifting isn't very productive when you think about it this way: after it is done and the equipment has been put away, nothing looks really different. After it has been done for some time the situation changes. More weight can be lifted, more often, and more times.

Robert Bruce suggested not forcing the energy system to develop too rapidly because it can end up worse off than before. Just like deciding to get physically fit and straining muscles and joints.

I think that astral projection increases energy instead of depleting it.

[Patty]

There are also the ideas that growth happens at it's own rate, and that 'spirituality' might have more to do with living fully to the best of your ability (i.e. in the physical world of people and relationships.)  Sometimes I think buddhist monks have it easy because they don't have spouses and children with constant needs.

If projection is enhancing the practical areas of one's life, (like allowing one to be more patient with others or have a more global view) then it seems that it is leading one towards a more 'enlightened' state.  In my experience, a little bit of time spent in this endeavor helps me feel balanced, and like I can be more giving towards others (because I feel 'self' satisfied) but if I begin to devote too much time to the practice, I become cross and irritable when someone wants my time.

(I also would like very much to be done with reincarnation. Do you think that one needs to get past this desire before one can be done?)

Patty

[IlmariL]

Well, think about the weight-lifting thing this way: Energy work (and later kundalini) is the weight lifting, and you practice it regularily. Other psychic gifts are represented by other sports, for example astral projection could be compared to running. If you do weight lifting a lot, it makes you a better runner. But also, after running you get tired and can't lift weights as much that day as normally. Running develops you, but in different way than weight lifting, making you a better runner rather than a better weight lifter...
Ok that's a bit weird, but can you see my point? If you give too much time for running, you'll become a good runner but your weight lifting skill (and body) suffers a bit.

Also, I'm aware of the fact that kundalini raising isn't a one-timer. But when a person is at the level of being able to raise it, he will have better grounds for other skills. And if it's true that energy requirements get smaller (or the reserves bigger) with time and development, after kundalini raising the skills would take even less energy.

And about the fact that everyone naturally projects at sleep.. well, according to the stories about projection, when the energy runs out the person may fall asleep and turn into a sleep projector, and so on.. so the sleep projection doesn't really take that much energy, but the conscious OBE does.

But I can't really speak of any of these things from my own experience, all I'm good in is reading lots of the stuff and doing much energy work, chakra stimulation and development and trance meditation

[Adam Kadmon]

I did some digging on google and answered some of my questions. On Mantak Chia's Healing Tao website they mention astral work as part of their internal alchemy method, and on another website I found an interview with two chinese qigong masters who told about the cultivation of "light qi" which deals with the astral body. This seems to say high level qigong has an astral element to it.
     In digging on the buddhist take on projection, I found the zen branch calls all "hallucinations, illusions, etc." that take place during meditations as makyo, which means rubbish I think. At the same time the Soto Zen site obcon.org has a book called the Book of Life which details how to help the dead pass on, which is straight shamanism. Tibetan buddhists seem much more open minded on the topic. The Tibetan Book of the Dead (which I haven't read) appears to deal with the astral. The bardos might be astral tunnels leading to the higher planes.
One cool Theravedan buddhist site I found (http://www.concentration.org/_concentration2.html) deals with moving the seat of consciousness to to the lower storage center through visualization, and describes multiple higher bodies that are progressively manifested at this spot that can be seen (not physically). All in all i think astral reality has to be manipulated for visualizations in higher (samatha/raja yoga/qigong) meditations. Vipassana and zen meditation seems to discourage paying attention to astral phenomena. Considering most practitioners have to combine both methods to attain the goal, i've come to think astral travel isn't wasteful in moderation, as long as the distraction doesn't become the goal.

patty: in wanting to get out of samsara, a desire is there. you have to meditate with no goal in mind whatsoever, because to proceed towards an end is to still be guided by ego. this is the zen take at least... shikantaza is the most efficient route to realization imho.

a.k.

[Adam Kadmon]

Here's a dilemma I've come across that deals with the cost of projecting. From what I've read on Qigong and Kundalini (and NEW) the enlightenment process is fueled on the physical level at least by stored chi or prana in the energy storage centers (dantiens in qigong). When the chambers are full, the kundalini energy is activated, rages up the sushumma, and the person is freed from dualistic thought.
   
   What concerns me is if in energy work we are trying to conserve and store chi to open the chakras and awaken kundalini, isn't projection a waste of those resources? In my own projections, I've felt my self fading, and pulled energy from my etheric body and everything became clearer. What I've been thinking recently is when I do this I may be robbing my storage centers to play around in the astral, which would slow my ascension to the higher realms.

   In my research on kabbalah (the gnostic jewish tradition) kabbalists see magicians and shamans as aspirants who have gotten distracted in the astral (yetzirah) and halted their development. This is also connected I think to the Hindu/Buddhist standpoint that siddhis (psychic powers) are not to be employed but merely appreciated as markers on the path, IMHO because it uses up a lot of chi to levitate, move objects, *project*, etc.

Any opinions concerning this? I enjoy projecting, but from an energy working prospective I think it might possibly be a vice.

a.k.