The true nature of ki and jing!

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
    you know, its a bit screwed that when someone post in the energy body developement forum; a post that is rational, thoughtful and designed to initiate critical analysis and scientific experimentation and exploration...nobody barely looks at the post....let alone even reply.  maybe the title is not explicit enough...i will try that and see what happens.

[beavis]

Most of us dont want to read that big a post. Break it up into multiple topics.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I have read most of it. Interesting so far.

[MJ-12]

bv

[Nayru]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

Most of us dont want to read that big a post. Break it up into multiple topics.

Unlike most the posts around here, this is an intelligent one. Big or not; who gives a excrement? It's interesting, and that's what counts.

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
    Thanks for replying everyone!  well, I am about halfway through the NEW energy techs and from what i have garnered thus far...they seem to be a  sort of amalgamation between marmasthanani and yoga nidra techs.  what stood out to me, and i felt this to be a nice innovation, was the theoretical and practical emphasis on the activation of the supportive energetic pathways(nadis in yoga jargon).  many of the western interpretation of ancient eastern systems of energy body development have strong tendancies to ignore the weblike enery support system for the sushumna(spinal pathway for kundalini).  kudos to RB!!  with that said; blisters on your feet MJ?  hmmm...first things to rule out would be any gross physical catalysts.  surface of the floor you were training, type of training(were you training lots of kicks after not for a while?);  was something possibly toxic spilt and then cleaned off of the surface you trained on?(allergic reaction or reacition to a toxic residue?);  you get the idea...once any more material catalyst is ruled as highly unlikely, then move to energetic possibilities.  diet is important cause its where we convert gross matter into energy.  so checking to see it you ate something unusual for you earlier in the day would be something to do.  then, lets say that none of that connected in any way and that the blisters are a result of the change in cognitive focus during your training.  one thing that comes to mind is how traditional taichi practicioners encourage the shoe thing in order to keep chi from leaking out of the soles of the feet.  a possibility is that the increased chi flow to your feet during practice may have produce and energetic environment where your were either recieving too much energy, or putting out too much energy from the soles of the feet and thus an increase in the sensitivity of the feet and then very possibly due to the increase in sensitivity, the skin reacted by producing blisters.  try the new techs in training with martial arts shoes if you have them, if you don't try making it a point to drastically decrease the vortex of your K1 point, and giving it a seal before you train...a possible side effect is not enough connectedness and grounding but that would be according to your personal energy matrix.  i am personal excited to try out some of the techs in my yoga practice...in conjunction with mudras!!!  hhmmm..martial arts practice+new energy techs+mudras=??  let me know what you think!

[wisp]

Shadowdancer, I found your articles quite fascinating. I'm not usually drawn to this area of thought, but your excellant writing skills kept me reading. []

In the meantime I was taken with your question about eating or consuming. I think you may be looking for a pathway of thought that may direct you?

I have a method I used during a physical regeneration time I was in much need for, at the time.

I had lost my ability to connect my mind with my physical body. I required at least 3,000 calories a day to maintain a 100 pound weight until I could find a solution to my delimma. I found success in a system of what I found, did get me reconnected possibly. What I learned to do was connect with all the muscles in my body in a new way.First, making it a concentrating practice to feel (and see) each movement of the particular muscle I was using at daily activities. For instance, reaching up toward a high shelf. Instead of focusing on the object being reached for, focus on the muscles being used to do the task. The more you practice, the more you notice these muscles working. After a time, it's like riding a bicycle, you do it automatically (you connect with that muscle in a mental way). It's as if you can visualize yourself in form of muscle in movement. My intake requirements and weight eventually balanced with this method. I wondered at the time, if this worked to correct my delimma, could it work for weight loss. It's not really even about weight loss in this system. It has more to do with the body taking it's natural form suited best for it. Similar to what you seem to say in your writing.

As time went on, an interesting other observation I made. I noticed what I ate was not being initiated like it use to be. With this mind & muscle connection, it was as my muscle form was directing me in the requirements of what it (the muscle) needed. I didn't have to decide what to eat, my muscle messenger did. After awhile I developed the thinking pattern of eat to live (healthy). This attitude strikes me as a good method for anyone interested in weight related issues. Instead of focusing on the commonly emotional things we do reqarding food, this method seem to be a healthier way of taking in and consuming what the body really wants and needs for good health.

The body takes the natural form it needs or wants to be in. The body does it's own ordering from the menu. It's very cool if you ever want to try it. You may find it's the only way to do it. I did. Just an idea for you.

Thanks for all the interesting things you have written about. I think I needed it. I hope I've been of some help to you.

[MJ-12]

vc

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
    thanks for the compliments and the criticism everbody!  to answer your question MJ, i dont use jargon to impress...it tends to alienate more than anything...i do tend to be wordy at times, but hey, that's just me []  i am very glad the NEW techs are working for you in your aikido practice.  its(aikido)an art form i have admired from a distance.  I really like the mathematics of its theories []  Wisp, it sounds like some intuitive magick! and very similar to the marmasthanani meditation practice.  the cool thing is, is that you did it in a relatively non-meditative state of consciousness.  meaning that you worked from the surface to the root.  that is awesome and from my experience takes a tremedous amount of will and focus to succeed!!  a deeper connection with our physical vehicle, like in the ways which you shared, are common results with yogic practices.  not that i am shouting the glories of yoga or anything, but there is a definite kind of general quality or flavor that comes to ones way of relating and knowing the body through yogic exercises....hmmm...ah!  the K-1 point is accupressure pinyin=yongquan or bubbling/gushing spring.  sole of foot, curl the toes down and its in that depressing in the sole that forms.  please lets keep the dialog coming!  if i can answer questions i do the best i can!  not too much ego stuff []  i want to be challenged in thinking!  namaste and much love

[shadowdancer]

Namaste,
    i have looked around the net a bit and found quite a few forums that speak of ki.  (please feel free to move this thread if it is miss-posted [])  What i have read so far, from the vast majority of people on most of the forums that i have come across; is that people have either no idea what the hell they speak of, or they have grossly misinformed and distorted versions of any semblance of nominal reality regarding the energy we call "ki".  So, in this thread, i wanted to propose some ideas and ask some questions.  

    First, let us define qi.  Here is reprinted a brief article that does just that, and very succinctly, by one of the world's leading authorities on the subject, Dr.Yang, Jwing-Ming.

    "It is important that you know about the progress that has been made by modern science in the study of Qi. This will keep you from getting stuck in the ancient concepts and level of understanding.
In ancient China, people had very little knowledge of electricity. They only knew from acupuncture that when a needle was inserted into the acupuncture cavities, some kind of energy other than heat was produced which often caused a shocking or a tickling sensation. It was not until the last few decades, when the Chinese people were more acquainted with electromagnetic science, that they began to recognize that this energy circulating in the body, which they called Qi, might be the same thing as what today's science calls "bioelectricity."
We must look at what modern Western science has discovered about bio?electromagnetic energy. Many bioelectricity-related reports have been published, and frequently the results are closely related to what is experienced in Chinese Qigong training and medical science. For example, during the electrophysiological research of the 1960's, several investigators discovered that bones are piezoelectric; that is, when they are stressed, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy in the form of electric current. This might explain one of the practices of Marrow Washing Qigong in which the stress on the bones and muscles is increased in certain ways to increase the Qi circulation.
It is understood now that the human body is constructed of many different electrically conductive materials, and that it forms a living electromagnetic field and circuit. Electromagnetic energy is continuously being generated in the human body through the biochemical reaction in food and air assimilation, and circulated by the electromotive forces (EMF) generated within the body.
In addition, you are constantly being affected by external electromagnetic fields such as that of the earth, or the electrical fields generated by clouds. When you practice Chinese medicine or Qigong, you need to be aware of these outside factors and take them into account.
Countless experiments have been conducted in China, Japan, and other countries to study how external magnetic or electrical fields can affect and adjust the body's Qi field. Many acupuncturists use magnets and electricity in their treatments. They attach a magnet to the skin over a cavity and leave it there for a period of time. The magnetic field gradually affects the Qi circulation in that channel. Alternatively, they insert needles into cavities and then run an electric current through the needle to reach the Qi channels directly. Although many researchers have claimed a degree of success in their experiments, none has been able to publish any detailed and convincing proof of the results, or give a good explanation of the theory behind the experiment. As with many other attempts to explain the How and Why of acupuncture, conclu?sive proof is elusive, and many unanswered questions remain. Of course, this theory is quite new, and it will take more study and research before it is verified and completely understood.
Much of the research on the body's electrical field relates to acupuncture. For example, Dr. Robert O. Becker, author of The Body Electric, reports that the conductivity of the skin is much higher at acupuncture cav?ities, and that it is now possible to locate them precisely by measuring the skin's conductivity. Many of these reports prove that the acupuncture which has been done in China for thousands of years is reasonable and scientific.
Although the link between the theory of "the Body Electric" and the Chinese theory of Qi is becoming more accepted and better proven, there are still many questions to be answered. For example, how can the mind lead Qi (electricity)? How actually does the mind generate an EMF (electromotive force) to circulate the electricity in the body? How is the human electromagnetic field affected by the multitude of other electric fields which surround us, such as radio wiring or electrical appliances? How can we readjust our electromagnetic fields and survive in outer space or on other planets where the magnetic field is completely different from the earth's? You can see that the future of Qigong and bioelectric science is a challenging and exciting one. It is about time that we started to use modern technology to understand the inner energy world which has been for the most part ignored by Western society."

    Now, let us define that ever elusive and catch-all label for energy that can "leap tall buildings in a single bound"; jing.  Again, i will reference an article by Dr.Yang.
   
    "Jin training is a very important part of the Chinese martial arts, but there is very little writ?ten on the subject in English. Theoretically, Jin can be defined as "using the concentrated mind to lead the Qi to energize the muscles and thus manifest the power to its maximum level." From this, you can see that Jin is related to the training of the mind and Qi. That means Qigong.

Traditionally, many masters have viewed the higher levels of Jin as a secret which should only be passed down to a few trusted students. Almost all Oriental martial styles train Jin. The differences lie in the depth to which Jin is understood, in the different kinds of Jin trained, and in the range and characteristics of the emphasized Jins. For example, Tiger Claw style emphasizes hard and strong Jin, imitating the tiger's muscular strength; muscles predominate in most of the techniques. White Crane, Dragon, and Snake are softer styles, and the muscles are used relatively less. In Taijiquan and Liu He Ba Fa, the softest styles, Soft Jin is especially emphasized and muscle usage is cut down to a minimum.

The application of Jin brings us to a major difference between the Oriental martial arts and those of the West. Oriental martial arts traditionally emphasize the training of Jin, whereas this concept and training approach is relatively unknown in other parts of the world. In China, martial styles and martial artists are judged by their Jin. How deeply is Jin understood and how well is it applied? How strong and effective is it, and how is it coordinated with martial techniques? When a martial artist performs his art without Jin it is called "Flower fist and brocade leg." This is to scoff at the martial artist without Jin who is weak like a flower and soft like brocade. Like dancing, his art is beautiful but not useful.

It is also said "Train Quan and not Gong, when you get old, all emptiness." This means that if a martial artist emphasizes only the beauty and smoothness of the forms and doesn't train Gong, then when he gets old, he will have nothing. The "Gong" here means "Qigong," and refers to the cultivation of Qi and its coordina?tion with Jin to develop the latter to its maximum, and to make the techniques effective and alive. Therefore, if a martial artist learns his art without training his "Qigong" and "Jin Gong," once he gets old the techniques he has learned will be useless, because he will have lost his mus?cular strength.

Often Jin has been considered a secret transmission in Chinese martial arts society. This is so not only because it was not revealed to most students, but also because it cannot be passed down with words alone. Jin must be experienced. It is said that the master "passes down Jin." Once you feel Jin done by your master, you know what is meant and are able to work on it by yourself. Without an experienced master it is more difficult, but not impossible, to learn about Jin. There are general principles and training methods which an experienced martial artist can use to grasp the keys of this practice. If you practice patiently and with perseverence, and remember to remain humble, to question and ponder, you will no doubt be able to learn Jin and become a real master."

    now, here is my dream and my hope.  the two articles posted above in no way create a prohibition to the imagination.  to illustrate-  if qi is biochemical electromagnetic energy....then we can play with many many hypothesis of potential for the human being.  And this is where some of the thread title can be applied.  I have noticed that OBE's and astral are very much considered to be "non-physical".  and i would agree, to an extent.  for me, i have personally experienced perceptions where the dichotomous view of astral and physical were fairly completely meshed.  the subtle energies of the "astral" realm can become "physically" visible to the awakend eye.  hypothetically, if a human being could increase the vibratory rate, or the rate at which the electrons spin about the atomic nuclei, in the atoms of his or her body, if they could increase this rate, they would then be able to "see" the color indigo, for example.  indigo is just out of reach of our visible light spectrum.  and they may start to be able to actually "see" auras and energy bodies and, heck they might even be able to visually interpret the sensing of a "qi-ball".  lots and lots of hypotheticals.

    so what is my point?  well, if we look at the definition of qi and jin(g), and start from what IS known about them as energies, without jumping to fanciful ideas about power and the delusions thereof; we could really make some wonderful progress scientifically.  very much like the people of thousands of years ago went about their explorations in consciousness and energy.  but first, i also wanted to bring up a few points that may provide and explicit(cause i get the feeling that many individuals understand this implicitly)--that all things are connected...apply this to the ideas of energy body/phsyical body.  in my experience, they are more intimately connected than one may at first notice.  there is no "real" dichotomy.  so when someone talks about energy training, it may be easy for them to do so and still delude themselves with ideas of manifest power, even though they might be severly overweight and have asthma.  and vice versa, someone who is very physically active and fitness oriented my be completely insensitive to sublte energies, thus ignoring potential for further development.  both happen with a freqency that indicates a deeper issue locked within the collective subconscious mind...but that is another issue.  my point is, if you want to get the most out of training your energy body, you also HAVE TO train your phsyical body.  sure sure, there are examples of people who are relatively heavy set---but here is the difference--they are HEALTHY.  weight is not necessarily an indication of health.  but eating habits are, time spent with the physical body in non-dynamic states is, mental and emotional consumptive habits are as well.  each of these issues we must all work with in our own way....are some people getting defensive?  i ask the question in a way to say, it is a whole life issue.  how you live your life.  what you live for.  you get the idea.  anyway, last thing i wanted to bring up is the idea of siddhis and how these connect to the hypothetical potentials of ki training.  oh, there is no difference between your chakras and ki.  think about it.  same flow, chakras are just a way of saying "this is where a vortex of this same life energy seats itself".  so chakra work is all part of it.  man, i know there are alot of things here...i am really interested in hearing replies.  thanks, namaste